Casting temperature keeps creeping up ???? why

[kens]

I cast with the Lee Pro-4 drip o matic.
When I start a session with a full pot, I have the dial up about 7 or 8, and cast just fine.
As the lead level goes down, the temp goes up, I am constantly adjusting the temp down.
At the end of a pot of lead, I am dialed down to about 3.
Why is this?
Is it my mold just getting hot at the end of the session?
Is the lead really getting hot? (the temp is controlled, I can hear the heat element cycling off/on)
Should I wait longer at the full pot before starting casting? (waiting for temps to stabilize)

[BK7saum]

Just how a Lee works, I guess. I have a few Lee pots and they all run hotter when lead level drops. I now run a PID.

[Ed_Shot]

Just how a Lee works, I guess. I have a few Lee pots and they all run hotter when lead level drops. I now run a PID.

+1.......a PID makes for happy casting.

[Bodean98]

As the lead in your pot is depleted there is less to keep hot. You have it set for melting a full pot of alloy. When the alloy gets to, let's say, half of a pot you still have the same amount of heat going into it because of the way the thermostat works. Your melt temp will rise. Conversely, when the pot is low and you have adjusted the thermostat down to accommodate less lead, then add lead to the pot, you have to adjust the thermostat back up to reach temp with a full pot again. Constant adjusting of the original thermostat is required to keep the melt temp constant. A PID is your best friend in this instance. They will maintain a very accurate temp no matter the level of lead in the pot (within reason).

[lightman]

As an alternative to a PID you might change your casting routine by adding your sprues and rejects back into the pot to maintain the lead level. Maybe even add a smaller preheated ingot occasionally. The little cavity in a Lee ingot mold would be about the right size. A PID is nice to have, not trying to talk you out of one, just offering another idea.

[lwknight]

It would just keep getting hotter if you were not using any out just the same. The temp dial on a Lee pot is not a good thermostat.
Like others I just gave up and got a PID controller. Now temp control is easy.

[mold maker]

Simply said, the thermostat and heating element remains in the same position. As the alloy level decreases the interaction between the thermostat and element is changed. There are several work arounds like a PID, adding warmed ingots to keep the level constant, or adding the sprue and rejects back while still hot. Watch the reaction of the pilot light and pour when it is off after initial heating.
None are the perfect answer but each will almost succeed. Even the newer PID controlled pots will exhibit the problem but to a lesser extent, only because of the closer temp tolerance.

[kens]

I been looking at the parts to build a PID, nearly $100 all in with shipping, plus I still have to put it all together.
Is it better to just wait for the RCBS or Lyman furnace to go on sale at Midway, or other online supplier?

What say you guys with the PID Lee bottom pour pot?

[mold maker]

A PID controlled LEE pot would be an improvement, but wouldn't solve the other problem so many complain about. I personally have had drips from every brand I have. It is usually from dirty alloy trying to flow past the needle valve, no matter which pot.
If you can afford a PID and a LEE, Your really not that far from one of the newer RCBS or Lyman offerings. Since RCBS is having the same delays that Lyman suffered, it means they are more likely to have a trouble free unit when made available. RCBS doesn't offer junk and has a warrenty as good as any.
Without being a brand snob, I'd wait to compare both the new PID controlled offerings while saving my money. If in the end you decide on the LEE and PID, you'll have extra savings to spend elsewhere.

[lightman]

There are a couple of members here that build and sell PID's for reasonable prices. Their pricing makes it seem like a labor of love, considering the prices of just the parts.

[Smoke4320]

Check out Hatch here he makes a good professional built PID

[Beagle333]

I think you could also do a little better than a hundred dollars. They sell the parts as an already-assembled kit on that popular auction site. You just need to specify that you want a K-type probe and then put it in some sort of a box. But the parts are already gathered for you and wired up. Or you can just see what is inside one and get the parts yourself. I think you could have a working PID for $70-75 without a lot of trouble. I have a really small knowledge of electronics and I have built three for my uses. It doesn't cost much more to get a ready-made one such as Hatch sells though. I did buy my first one and then decided that they were so wonderful that I needed more of them and then built my own.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

how do you install a ready made one, like you say hatch sells, is it just a matter of splicing a few wires, or more involved than that?

[lwknight]

Most PID kits are just boxes that you plug the pot into and the box plugs into the wall. You will probably have to connect the T.C. though. Generally, no tools required. I built mine that way too so that I can change pots just by unplugging one and plugging the other.

[BK7saum]

I built mine with a standard electrical outlet to plug the pot into. One outlet is hot (regular 110) and the other is regulated by the PID.

[kens]

A PID controlled LEE pot would be an improvement, but wouldn't solve the other problem so many complain about. I personally have had drips from every brand I have. It is usually from dirty alloy trying to flow past the needle valve, no matter which pot.
If you can afford a PID and a LEE, Your really not that far from one of the newer RCBS or Lyman offerings. Since RCBS is having the same delays that Lyman suffered, it means they are more likely to have a trouble free unit when made available. RCBS doesn't offer junk and has a warrenty as good as any.
Without being a brand snob, I'd wait to compare both the new PID controlled offerings while saving my money. If in the end you decide on the LEE and PID, you'll have extra savings to spend elsewhere.

You just answered another of my questions;
What prevents a Lyman or RCBS from being a drip-o-matic as well??

[kevin c]

how do you install a ready made one, like you say hatch sells, is it just a matter of splicing a few wires, or more involved than that?

I just got one of Hatch's units (very professional looking) for my 4-20. I haven't installed it yet but basically it's a matter of loosening one of the screws on the lip of the pot to install a loop of wire to hold the probe in the melt (Hatch advised making sure that, once mounted, the reading end of the probe does not touch the side wall or base of the pot to avoid false readings). Then the power cord of the pot goes into the receptacle on the PID, and the power cord of the PID goes to your shop's outlets. Pot temp dial set to maximum, set the PID and then rock and roll.

[dimaprok]

Simply said, the thermostat and heating element remains in the same position. As the alloy level decreases the interaction between the thermostat and element is changed. There are several work arounds like a PID, adding warmed ingots to keep the level constant, or adding the sprue and rejects back while still hot. Watch the reaction of the pilot light and pour when it is off after initial heating.
None are the perfect answer but each will almost succeed. Even the newer PID controlled pots will exhibit the problem but to a lesser extent, only because of the closer temp tolerance.my home build PID doesn't have this problem unless there is 1/2" lead at the bottom.

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[dimaprok]

I been looking at the parts to build a PID, nearly $100 all in with shipping, plus I still have to put it all together.
Is it better to just wait for the RCBS or Lyman furnace to go on sale at Midway, or other online supplier?

What say you guys with the PID Lee bottom pour pot?I build mine for about 30 - 35 bucks. You don't need to order your controller from expensive online company, I got mine from Ebay or Amazon. I also didn't use screw terminal although it will make job easier. Had it now for 2 years and when I bought NOE thermometer its spot on unlike popular youtubers had theirs 50+ degrees off.

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[MaryB]

Everything but a box, outlet, and a power cord. Maybe a switch if you want one... https://www.amazon.com/Inkbird-Temperature-Controllers-Thermostat-ITC-106VH/dp/B01N1ZUGUZ/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1520137677&sr=8-5&keywords=PID&th=1 I would replace the thermocouple with a long probe style...


I been looking at the parts to build a PID, nearly $100 all in with shipping, plus I still have to put it all together.
Is it better to just wait for the RCBS or Lyman furnace to go on sale at Midway, or other online supplier?

What say you guys with the PID Lee bottom pour pot?

[Beagle333]

What prevents a Lyman or RCBS from being a drip-o-matic as well??

They are much better designs. They also put more weight on the needle than Lee. You can almost get a LEE to stop being a dripomatic if you add weight to the handle. You can either stack a bunch of washers under the handle and then you screw it back on, or you can clamp a small set of vice grips to the handle and just let them hang there and use that for a handle. I like the second one. You can pick a set up at Home Depot for 2-3 bucks and it makes a better handle than you already had (imho). Also.... you always have a set of vice grips handy if you need them.

[Drew P]

The thermocouples that have threads on them are nice. I drilled a hole in the bottom of the pot, screwed in the probe and capped it on the inside with an acorn nut to keep it from leaking.

[Mr_Sheesh]

LOL reminds me of a story. Friend had a pickup, the ground wire from the battery had the end of the cable flex enough that it fell off somehow - So he used vice grips to lock it to a frame flange, saying "And as a bonus I'll always have those available in case of need." He then promptly forgot about them until 15-20 years later when he noticed they were still there, but mostly rusted horribly :P Some friends are good for lots of facepalms!

The connections needed for a PID are usually the thermocouple (2 wires), power in (2 wires), and power out to the heater (2 wires), sometimes one wire less or a few more, depends on your situation. (Sometimes the "neutral" power wire is commoned between input and output.) Pretty simple. Usually a diagram and "crib notes" are available for wiring them in.

[kens]

LEE has a updated needle and handle, has anyone used it?
It is available if you go into Lee 'knowledge base' section, and look for the listing.

[HATCH]

how do you install a ready made one, like you say hatch sells, is it just a matter of splicing a few wires, or more involved than that?

For 120v units that are sold not just by me or others, its pretty much plug and play.
the hardest part is mounting the probe itself.
On a Lee 4-20 its pretty easy.
On the top of the pot is screws that hold the base to the pot.
I mount the probe about 10pm when looking at the pot. Basically other side away from pour handle if you have a bottom pour pot.
I use solid core wire (16 ga works great).
I wrap it around the probe tightly about 4 or 5 wraps.
I leave a inch of wire hanging out from both ends.
I get a non-insulated spade connector and crimp it on the 2 ends.

Once the assembly it all together (prior to mounting on pot), you can hold the spade connector and twist the probe. This tightens the connection even more. One turn is normally enough..

Mount the probe and make sure that it is off the bottom of the pot.

On the thermostat, you can do it two ways. I removed my thermostat completely and buttspliced the wires together.
Or you can turn it wide open if you want.
The only problem anyone has ever had is if the factory thermostat max temp range is under the range that you are trying to cast at.
This hasn't really been the case on the Lee 4-20 pots though...


Now on building them.
I will be honest.
They are pretty simple to build.
I would AVOID using cheap PID controllers. Some of them are poorly done clones that don't have all the features of the units they are trying to clone.

This is my recommendation. Yes, I know that I potentially will lose sales on this, but to be honest PIDs are sold by me more as a service then a money maker.

PID -> https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=14
Enclosure -> https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=34&products_id=431
SSR-> https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_30&products_id=9
4 inch probe ->https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=20_3&products_id=101

The above items are $75 not including shipping

You will need a toggle switch (low amperage so any will do) ($5)
10 foot extension cord (16 ga if your plugging into a standard outlet) ($10)
Any hardware store (True Value, Lowes, Home depot, ect) will have those last two items.


Optional accessories
Panel mounted fuse holder - https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7_83&products_id=593
10 amp slow blow fuse -> https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7_83&products_id=734
panel mounted TC connector -> https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=61_62&products_id=119
inline TC connector -> https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=61_62&products_id=326

Now, I picked a 10 amp fuse because we are talking specifically about controlling a Lee 4-20 pot.
The heating element in that unit is 700 watts. Watts / Volts = amps so 700/120 = 5.9 amps or just shy of 6 amps

Now you can add up the items I have listed, not including any optional items) and your gonna be at around $90 not including any shipping.
But you can build it yourself and you will understand how everything works when your done.
I did not include a heat sink because in this application you don't need it.
You are using a 25amp rated SSR and mounting it on a metal enclosure.
You are drawing only 6 amps. That is less then 1/4 the rated capacity.

Because of issue that a member had on here with his homemade PID controller (almost burned his work bench up), I recommend some sort of circuit protection just in case.

[kens]

What the difference of using a relay vs SSR?
After all, a SSR actually is a relay, isn't it? (it just controlled different)

[HATCH]

a relay is a electronic/mechanical device.
a ssr is purely electronic.

a Relay has a life expectancy of 1 million cycles
a SSR is 100 million cycles.

On a PID application you may have a cycle rate of 1 per second

if you ran the SSR 24/7/365 it would be @1150 days before it failed.
The relay would fail in under two weeks

[lightman]

I've always had a lot of respect for guys who will share information on something that they do as a business.

[HATCH]

I don't really do this as a business.
At the time I started, CB didn't have anyone that sold PID completed units.
It was something that I could do in my spare time and it helped out members with being able to purchase PIDs.
I could make a few bucks IF I were able to purchase items in quantity for max cost savings.

I also know that no matter how much information I put out there on how to build a unit that I will always have members wanting to purchase pre-built units.
Time and money. Unless your talking cheap PIDs, you are only talking saving maybe $40 to $50. Most people would rather spend the money and not have to fool with the hassle of building a unit and making sure the parts were good parts.

Plus if you ever follow my posts, you will see that I have always given out information to help CB members.
Its the reason CB is great. Members helping members.

[lwknight]

What the difference of using a relay vs SSR?
After all, a SSR actually is a relay, isn't it? (it just controlled different)

The SSR ( soild state relay) will work with millivolt systems and supposed to have a very long life but not good for high amp loads like an A/C compressor.
A standard 24 volt relay can handle high amp loads without overheating. Downside is that a 24 volt transformer is required. You can also get relays with 110/220 volt coils that eliminate the need for a transformer. The 24 volt is preferred for long runs of control wire because they can use a 8 conductor 28ga wire. A 30 amp relay powering a 750 watt melting pot can last virtually forever.

[Mr_Sheesh]

The problem with relays is that the contacts can and do fail over time. Friend about died 2-3 times in a horticulture business where they were growing plants, using Propane burners to increase the CO2 levels in their room, and the relay controlling the propane feed failed in the "welded together" position. So he walked in, and didn't notice anything wrong as their CO2 alarm had apparently had its' battery die - Until he started blacking out; He was lucky in that he managed to get to the door and stagger outside, closing the door behind him, before he blacked out. Otherwise the CO2 would have killed him. Relay contacts also burn pits on the contacts to where they eventually fail to close, higher currents cause that. I avoid relays for the most part, I'm picky though. (They now have a policy that you OPEN the door before going in, and block it in the open position - And check the CO2 level FIRST THING, for some strange reason. He maybe doesn't feel the need to die yet, possibly.)

SSRs are great! They do have one issue - For very low loads, for example when lighting LED lights, they have some leakage current and can dimly light your LED light when "OFF". For a casting situation, having the heater heat up at 1/10,000th normal heat is hardly a problem, where the bedroom light being dimly on might be annoying. There are fixes for this (putting a resistor across the LED light, for example.)

Hatch - I was thinking an 8-10 Amp circuit breaker, slow-blow type, I prefer breakers over fuses, you ever see an issue with breakers in this context? I imagine not but thought I'd check, and you for CERTAIN would know, I'd think :)

Oh - and lwknight it's more that SSRs don't like inductive loads; An A/C compressor has a big motor in there and that's an inductive load, I'd think that is why they don't like A/C use.

[HATCH]

I install 15 amp push to reset panel mount breakers on the back panel on the PID's I build now.
I use 15 amp because this are universal and I need to cover the load to the max design current which is 15 amps.
On 220v units, I do not put a CB on them because some of those units will control more then 15 amps as I started putting 40 amp SSR's in them

Regardless I still put a Pico fuse on the PID power

[Mr_Sheesh]

Makes sense!

[MaryB]

If you build and get stuck and Hatch is busy feel free to ask me. I build them for freezer to fridge conversions for home brewers and people using solar panels. Same circuit, just a lot lower temp range!

[Mr_Sheesh]

Hmm, MaryB, for kegerators and/or brewing rigs?

[bosterr]

I agree 100% with Hatch buying PID components from Auberins. My SYL2352 controller failed in that I couldn't make it read ambient temp without adjusting the unit a lot to compensate for the error. Auberins emailed to send it in. They re-soldered the "cold junction compensator" and returned it for $5. Apparently they re-soldered it and shipped back out the same day. Talk about stellar customer service!!! In the meantime I bought another controller for a spare. I needn't have bothered, it's been running like a tank for about 8 years now.

[Mr_Sheesh]

Oh by the way those Auberins fuses are Ceramic - While you cannot see if the fuse is blown, so it's slightly inconvenient, you WANT ceramic fuses on anything higher current preferably - They are filled with sand so that when the fuse blows, it self-quenches any arcing, instead of the fuse link metal plating the inside of the fuse and the metal vapor letting the arc potentially continue for some time. Good choice on Auberins' part.

[dimaprok]

I agree 100% with Hatch buying PID components from Auberins. My SYL2352 controller failed in that I couldn't make it read ambient temp without adjusting the unit a lot to compensate for the error. Auberins emailed to send it in. They re-soldered the "cold junction compensator" and returned it for $5. Apparently they re-soldered it and shipped back out the same day. Talk about stellar customer service!!! In the meantime I bought another controller for a spare. I needn't have bothered, it's been running like a tank for about 8 years now.I am using this one, works great for 2 years. They are all made in China. No problems with cold solder joints. Free 2 day prime shipping. $20, you can buy two for less than 1 Auberins.

Dual Display Manual/ Auto-tuning PID Temperature Controller TA4-RNR https://www.amazon.com/dp/B007JWIDCE/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_IZyNAbYZVZRMY

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[razorfish]

I am using this one, works great for 2 years. They are all made in China. No problems with cold solder joints. Free 2 day prime shipping. $20, you can buy two for less than 1 Auberins.

Dual Display Manual/ Auto-tuning PID Temperature Controller TA4-RNR https://www.amazon.com/dp/B007JWIDCE/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_IZyNAbYZVZRMY

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Obviously you (Dimaprok) know this, but for others looking at this particular model of PID; you need a source of DC voltage to trigger an SSR. Not a big deal if you’ve got a DC power supply in your PID doing other tasks. Note that for few bucks (about $5) more you can get a PID that uses DC voltage to trigger an SSR.


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[HATCH]

you need the SNR model not the RNR

[dimaprok]

Obviously you (Dimaprok) know this, but for others looking at this particular model of PID; you need a source of DC voltage to trigger an SSR. Not a big deal if you’ve got a DC power supply in your PID doing other tasks. Note that for few bucks (about $5) more you can get a PID that uses DC voltage to trigger an SSR.


Actually to be honest I forgot about that, thanks for pointing out. It's been 2 years since I build mine and I don't remember details. I probably got SNR version because I just used 110v AC to power it and I don't use any other power supplies. I am going to rebuild mine or build another one and add fuse based on your guys comments. I picked up this perfect sturdy metal box and I plan to put Lee pot on top it for more compact setup.

[OldBearHair]

That cheap one that was mentioned is $23.90 at EBay. I just looked.

[MaryB]

Yup! Fermentation chambers and keezers(keg freezer) where temp control is needed. I ferment around 65 degrees for example, in summer that requires refrigeration. and chest freezers with a "collar" added on top then the lid attached to the collar is very popular for a kegerator.

Most common

http://www.shuesbrews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/The-Keezer.jpg

Fancy but there is a chest freezer under all that wood

http://www.3dpilots.com/homebrew/STD_1686.jpg



Hmm, MaryB, for kegerators and/or brewing rigs?

[Mr_Sheesh]

Pretty rig! All I have are disk heaters to fit under a carboy & germination mats to wrap around them.

[MaryB]

I have a 2 door commercial fridge that is missing the compressor that I am turning into my fermentation chamber. Will hold 6-8 5 gallon buckets. Going to graft a portable AC unit on the side for cooling and add a small 500 watt heater for cold months. Fridge was new, arrived with the compressor torn half out from a moron with a forklift stabbing it.

[Mr_Sheesh]

Neat :) Now we need forklift control tho :P