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dddddmorgan
03-02-2018, 08:17 PM
Here are a couple of pictures of a random case I have. I pick up various old rounds at the gun shows and whatnot, by no means do I have a real collection but I love the old and odd stuff.

The pictures aren't great but I have no photo skills.

It's obviously a rimfire but it has 4 dimples from some type of hammer strike. The base is stamped L.B.

I still haven't found my calipers but for point of reference it's approximately an oversized 44/40.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180303/a2eab6d4820d45dc4e4763515a606502.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180303/e37e797e6d0fe62a81a4d0daf66eb8c6.jpg

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skeet1
03-02-2018, 08:32 PM
I think this maybe the .41 rimfire Swiss for the Veterli rifle.

Ken

Outpost75
03-02-2018, 09:12 PM
^^^^This^^^^

The Italian version of the cartridge was centre-fire, many Italian rifles had a reversible firing pin so that they could be used with either ammo.

elk hunter
03-03-2018, 10:25 AM
The 41 Swiss uses a two prong firing pin to help ensure ignition and the case is shaped like the Swiss round so I'll vote for 41 Swiss.

Earlwb
03-03-2018, 12:52 PM
yeah I will vote for the 41 Swiss round too. I think you guys nailed it.

dddddmorgan
03-03-2018, 11:22 PM
Thanks for the input.

Is this ammunition still available? The case doesn't look old and it's pretty clean inside so I'd say it was smokeless powder.

Outpost75
03-03-2018, 11:33 PM
My buddy in Italy loads for it, his article from The Fouling Shot:

Racconto di 10,4x66mm Swiss Martini
Giorgio De Galleani, Mirabello, Italy.

30 Years ago I had a civilian Martini without factory marks, most likely the product of a small shop . It came from a deceased inhabitant of the Valsesia mountains who lived near the Monterosa mount. Its hammerless Martini action did not possess the outside cocking indicator common of British service rifles and had dual strikers compatible with either rimfire or center-fire versions of 10.4mm Swiss service cartridge. The octagon barrel was long and heavy having the old Swiss Federal front loading carbine rear sight and a fine front sight, which my old eyes are unable to see.

These Swiss Martinis are still common at Swiss gun shows and may be seen both with and without lateral cocking indicators. Many have the name of the gunsmith shop engraved on the right flat of the action. The Martini action is strong and a common chambering is the 7.5mm Swiss military caliber. Before WW2 the US international shooting team used .30-‘06 Martini target rifles.

My rifle came with a custom bullet mold of interesting characteristics, being both heeled and hollow based. The base band is of reduced diameter to fit inside the case mouth, whereas the driving bands are of groove diameter with a “stop ring” to determine seating depth, being outside lubricated, like a 22LR rimfire bullet. The style was well described for a .30 martini in a recent issue of The Fouling Shot.

I luckily found a couple of boxes of modern RWS 10,4 x 66 cases and an unmarked file trim -forming die. The 348 Winchester cases too can be formed to shoot in this Martini.

The chamber has neither a case mouth stop nor a defined throat or ball seat of conventional form. I explored the chamber and the origin of the rifling with Cerrosafe. I discovered that there is a long, gradual taper of diameter sufficient to fit the outside lubricated driving bands, and the rifling appears gradually and well forward, in the manner of a .22 LR sporting chamber. Modern cases have thinner rims than original miliary rimfire rounds, so cases are sized to headspace on the case shoulder. Correct shell holders might be troublesome to find in the US, except by special order, but they do exist , so that you can deprime and prime the cases with a loading press.

I just primed the cases poured in a dozen grains of a Cheddite Granulare Oro, a progressive 12 ga “duck and pheasant load” powder and seated the bullet by hand in the neck , up to the stop-ring. The bullets have a reduced base band or heel which fits the cases just finger-tight, just perfect for this technique,the ‘smith who made the mold did certainly know his trade. The bullet enter the case mouth with just a little friction, but you must use some caution handling the rounds, which don’t withstand rough handling. I also used for experiments a Lyman #429215 44-cal 225 grain gas-check bullet , cast soft and loaded without gas check and it worked OK.

On my first attempt I was rewarded when all of my rounds went bang every time and made a merry 50 meter “plink” against the steel plates, despite my old eyes . I sold the rifle to my younger friend Bass, but I kept the mold, as I am both his alchemy mentor and bullet purveyor.

Having a custom mould made for the 10,4 Swiss is not difficult , as Accurate Molds has the 43-310B heeled Swiss Vetterli bullet. Otherwise just have the bottom band that fits the cases and the other bands fitting this long and shallow cone of the throat . A general shape of a Loverin design bullet would be best , as Veral Smith uses in his moulds, and he would also be able to produce this affordably.

My mould was made with a hollow base in the style of the Swiss Federal muzzleloading carbines , I do not know if it having the hollow base is necessary or not , but it is in my mould, so we use it.

Loading is easy, no case or bullet sizing is needed. The stop ring on the bullet band and the primitive indefinite throat would have allowed a hillbilly of the Italian Alps to bag his chamois to be eaten with polenta . Filling the pot with stew ,with Swiss rimfire or centerfire GI ammo and of course with handloads.

The original rimfire rounds had paper patched lead bullets. The paper covers the bullet and the cartridge neck . Another mystery to me. Native hunters know their quarry , are able to approach the animals and did not even dream to use heavy and costly telescopes.