9mm Luger loading problems

[DonMountain]

I started loading 9mm Luger recently and have been having some problems. I started with Hornady 115 grain round nosed jacketed bullets, before I progress to some lead projectiles that I have purchased before buying a mold. Using random make brass I am shooting them in a Norinco Model 213. Winchester factory 115 grain round nose bullets shoot just fine. I have tried two powders and both of them had the same results. W-231 powder at 4.2 grains over a Remington 1-1/2 small pistol primer fire ok for me, but the limp-wristed can't get them to cycle properly. If I increase the powder a few tenths of a grain, the primers show flattening. So, I tried a slower powder, 4.5 grains of Unique with the same result. Varying the powder a little gives me either improper cycling of the gun, or flattened primer with no firing pin dent showing. So, should I try even slower powders or faster powders?

[tazman]

If you can, posting a picture or two might help with the diagnosis.

[DonMountain]

If you can, posting a picture or two might help with the diagnosis.

Unfortunately I don't have any means to post pictures. No camera and no cell phone. When I increase the powders to make cycling better, a lot of the primers come out flat, even flattening the firing pin holes back out. Although I can see a circular area where the firing pit hits as it is all wrinkled there in a circular pattern. But the factory Winchester rounds show a nice rounded edge primer and normal firing pin indentation on the primer. And they reject from the pistol in a robust manner from all shooters.

[Handloader109]

Oal? Are you heavy crimping? The 231 load should be middle of the road, the unique is a starting load.

[Ed_Shot]

Oal? Are you heavy crimping? The 231 load should be middle of the road, the unique is a starting load.

Agreed, you are doing something your pistol does not like. What's the weight and diameter of your boolit? IMHO, I would use Rem 1 1/2 for 9MM if that's all I had, but I'd prefer a primer with a harder cup.

[DonMountain]

Agreed, you are doing something your pistol does not like. What's the weight and diameter of your boolit? IMHO, I would use Rem 1 1/2 for 9MM if that's all I had, but I'd prefer a primer with a harder cup.

You mean like a Winchester Small Rifle primer like I have to use for my Webley loads? The bullet is a jacketed Hornady round nosed 115 grain. I was trying to copy the Winchester bullet loads that I bought to try out the pistol.

[Ed_Shot]

You mean like a Winchester Small Rifle primer like I have to use for my Webley loads? The bullet is a jacketed Hornady round nosed 115 grain. I was trying to copy the Winchester bullet loads that I bought to try out the pistol.

I do not recommend small rifle primers for 9MM, although I have read here that folks use them. CCI and WIN small pistol primers have a harder cup than Rem 1 1/2's. Rem 1 1/2's are the only small pistol primers that I know of that are not recommended for 40 SW by the manufacturer. 9MM is also a high pressure round.

[oldsalt444]

A bit hard to diagnose, but the 9mm is a higher pressure load than most pistol cartridges. I would try Power Pistol or HS6 powders. I've also had good luck with Titegroup. These work well in the 9. Use a primer that is nickel plated like CCI or Federal. The plating makes it harder than plain brass primer cups. I would stay away from rifle primers. On a different note, you might want to change your recoil spring to a slightly lighter one. It's possible that your spring is worn out and needs replacement.

[DonMountain]

A bit hard to diagnose, but the 9mm is a higher pressure load than most pistol cartridges. I would try Power Pistol or HS6 powders. I've also had good luck with Titegroup. These work well in the 9. Use a primer that is nickel plated like CCI or Federal. The plating makes it harder than plain brass primer cups. I would stay away from rifle primers. On a different note, you might want to change your recoil spring to a slightly lighter one. It's possible that your spring is worn out and needs replacement.

I do have a box of older CCI pistol primers, so I will try them. And the gun is older, but brand new in the box. So the spring should still be good.

[9.3X62AL]

CCI SP primers are harder than woodpecker lips. I agree that the listed loads for your 9mm are moderate to mild.

[knifemaker]

My 9mm load is a 124 gr. plated HP over 4.4 gr. of W-231 and Winchester SP primer. No indications of excessive pressure and perfect function. So your load with that powder should be ok with the 115 gr. bullet. Try your load with W=231 again and switch primers and see if that cures your flatten primers. Be sure not to seat the bullet too deep as that can spike the pressure.

According to the Hodgdon reloading web site your W-231 load is well below a max load and should not be showing high pressure signs. Your primers may be the culprit giving you a false indication of high pressure.

[DonMountain]

I had loaded 5 more 9mm Luger cases with CCI 400 Small Rifle primers to see what they would do, and tried 4.2 grains of Bullseye as a lower, middle of the road load. The primers look much better now, more like the factory Winchester loads do. And ejection is much more positive and will probably provide better ejection for the limp-wristed shooters in the family. So, I will work on these loads by trying some different, harder pistol primers and some other rifle primers and some different faster burning powders. But I am running out of these Hornady jacketed bullets and will have to get into my stash of powder coated cast lead projectiles pretty soon. And go all through this again to see what powders work there?

[charlie b]

Limp wristed shooting is frequently a problem with some guns. The Tokarev pistol was one of those.

In my experience it is better to load heavier bullets for those who do not hold the pistol firmly.

If they are to be firing the pistol a lot then I change to a lower rated recoil spring and I just make sure to not load it with +P loads.

And, there are some pistols that do not respond to anything and the pistol is not fired by the lim wristed.

[sixshot]

I load a 128 gr. cast HP that's powder coated with 4.3 grs of 231 & a Winchester SP primer & get 100% reliability in both of my 9mm's. When my daughter & anther lady shoots that load in their 9's they can have some jams but when I shoot the same load in their guns, no problem!! The limp wrist can cause problems with about any semi auto, I've seen it happen many times in USPSA matches when shooters go to weak hand only & end up with a stove pipe or other type of jam. You have to maintain resistance to the gun or the slide isn't going to cycle correctly. When I load a 140 gr bullet for the women the problem goes away. Changing springs can also solve the problem.

Dick

[winelover]

COAL is critical with the 9 mm cartridge and you did not mention that. Seating too deep will increase pressure and it's warning signs. Also what method are you using for crimping? I recommend taper crimping for all pistol cartridges.

I own a half dozen nines and use the same loadings for all, without issue. Usually, I opt for CCI SP primers. However, I have used Tula's when primers were hard to find. My standard load for Unique is 5.0 grains with a 125 RN and a COAl of 1.10 inches....as long as it passes the "plunk test".

Winelover

[JimB..]

Changing primers may just be masking a problem, your loads should not flatten even a Fed primer if everything else is good.

Pls post up that OAL.

[DonMountain]

The COL that I am using with the Hornady 115 FMJ-RN, No. 35557 bullet is 1.100". And I measure about every fifth one to make sure they are correct. I am using the standard factory taper crimp die that came in my Hornady 3-die set I bought about 25 years ago.

[9.3X62AL]

For the O/P--can you advise the nature of the primer flattening? Is there primer cratering? I am wondering if your firing pin aperture is over-sized for the pin it is supporting. Flattened primers can mean a number of things.

[JimB..]

1.100” seems a little short, but not enough make a big difference with such a small charge, I might try 1.125” and see if it’ll feed.

Taper crimp is right, and over crimping with a taper crimp won’t generally cause excessive pressure, it swayed down the bullet and the brass springs back a bit making things too loose, or at least that’s my understanding.

Tell me about the scale, or scales you’re using to weigh the charge.

[DonMountain]

For the O/P--can you advise the nature of the primer flattening? Is there primer cratering? I am wondering if your firing pin aperture is over-sized for the pin it is supporting. Flattened primers can mean a number of things.

The primers have the firing pin dent flattened back out so the primer is level again. But I can see the wrinkling around where the firing pin hits.

[DonMountain]

I fired another 10 of the rifle primed rounds I had loaded with 4.2 grains of Bullseye, with the same results. Cycling is good. Accuracy is good. And the primer pin indent looks good with the Hornady jacketed bullets. But, I ran out of the Hornady bullets. So, I tried six rounds of reloads with purchased ACME 9mm 115 RN-NLG Coated lead projectiles over 3.7 grains of Bullseye and Remington 1-1/2 primers. With very good results! It looks like my problem is resolved. This pistol doesn't like jacketed bullets. I got good cycling, good accuracy and proper priming pin indent. Without any of the wrinkles around the indent on the primer. Now I need to try a bunch more, maybe with 3.8 grains of Bullseye to up the cycling slightly. With the 3.7 grains some of the cases landed 12" from the gun on the table I was shooting from.

[35remington]

I will confirm the Remington 1 1/2 is a soft primer, too soft in my opinion for anything approaching full power 9mm loads. I view it as more suitable for the 38 Special, 380 Auto, 32 Long and similar moderate pressure, not over about 20,000 psi rounds.

[DonMountain]

I will confirm the Remington 1 1/2 is a soft primer, too soft in my opinion for anything approaching full power 9mm loads. I view it as more suitable for the 38 Special, 380 Auto, 32 Long and similar moderate pressure, not over about 20,000 psi rounds.

Well thanks for that information 35remington. I just bought dies to reload my 380 Auto and my 32 ACP so I was looking in my reloading manuals and noticed that they are much lower pressure rounds than the 9mm Luger.

[Virginia John]

I had a Norinco that had a problem cycling. I increased the load and didn't like the way it shot, so I reduced the spring weight and we were both happy