7.62x51 NATO (.308 WCF) in the Springfield M1A

[BruceB]

This was the first try with cast boolits in my brand-new M1A, which has had a tad less than 500 jacketed rounds through the tube. It wears the issue iron sights.

For the first 'go', I took a leaf from BobS' Garand book, and went with olde H4831, charge weight 35.0 grains with both designs fired today. This load was the subject of much thought before I chose the charge weight, because it's basically uncharted ground. This is why I'm pleased to be able to post about it, so others don't have to do the same "interpolation" schtick.

The bullet designs were Lyman's 311672 and 311299. 672 is a bore-riding 167-grain job much like a SAECO RG-4 in profile, to my eye at least. 311299 is a reduced-diameter version of 314299, a famous bullet intended for the .303 British and other "fat .30s". My 311299s weigh 210 grains, cast hot and fast, and water-dropped in straight WW alloy, as were the 672s. Lube was the Felix stuff, of course. All bullets were sized at .311". Primers were CCI #34 "military" type. All rounds were fired with a timed one minute interval between shots, with ambient temperature at 59 degrees and NO wind. The barrel never got more than comfortably warm...easy to touch, in other words. Cases are unfired (new) pull-down Lake City 1988.

For the 311672s, I loaded two ten-round batches, one batch with a TINY dacron tuft (because there's not much room in a 7.62 NATO case above 35 grains of bulky powder) and the other batch without dacron.

I fired five rounds of the NO-dacron rounds first. The initial two rounds went through the same hole from 50 yards, PRECISELY on the point of aim/zero for 168 Matchkings at 2600 fps! "OOOooooh", sez I. The next three rounds landed progressively further down the target, and ended in a total group of about 3.5 inches.

Average: 1414fps; extreme spread: 102 fps; standard deviation: 47 fps

Hmmm. So, I switched to the 311672 WITH dacron, and this time the first THREE rounds cut into a single hole on point of aim, followed by one hole an inch out at 4:00 and the fifth an inch out at 10:00, for just over a two-inch group. Now, check out the readings WITH dacron, after the group being barely HALF of the no-dacron group:

Average: 1524 fps; extreme spread: 60 fps; SD: 22 fps

I admit to being surprised here. Over 100 fps higher speed, and about HALF the ES and SD, all for a truly MINISCULE bit of dacron!?!?

I refired both loads on the original target for each, and the groups did not enlarge over the initial five rounds. The chronograph readings also stayed very close to the original results.

Shifting to the 311299 load, the group formed about 1.5" above where the 672s were landing on their targets. 299s did not demonstrate the movement of successive impacts, and the entire ten rounds ended up making a 1.5" group These rounds had NO dacron.

311299, average: 1546 fps; ES: 117 fps; SD: 36.

Notice that with this same charge and a bullet 43 grains heavier than 311672, the velocity was just about the same as the 311672 with dacron..

Pressure with all loads was very mild. The cases were FILTHY, indicating marginal obturation (based on observations with the service-level Matchking loads). The primers are also VERY rounded compared to those same jacketed loads. Ejection was a great deal softer than with the jacketed loads, especially with 311672. The 299s were much snappier than the 672s, but still nowhere near the functioning speed with Matchkings.

It's my conclusion that these carefully-figured loads are operating on very safe ground, pressure-wise, and I can safely work them up without worry.

Here's one of the neat parts: even with some rounds dropping down into the high 1300s for speed, the rifle functioned PERFECTLY, even to the point of locking open on the empty magazine! This is awesome, to me.

On inspecting the rifle afterwards, (only 30 rounds fired, of course) I found no evidence of leading or excessive fouling anywhere. Since the flash suppressor prevents looking sideways at the surface of the bore at the muzzle, I contented myself with a hard look down the barrel and saw no visible leading. The inside of the suppressor can sometimes tell us a tale, but in this case I found it totally clean, without any of the gray wash I've seen in similar places on other rifles.

Am I happy? You bet! I've been looking forward to this day for months, and it went very well indeed. This is one IMPRESSIVE rifle. By the time NCBS 2006 rolls around, I'll be sure to have plenty of good, tested loads for y'all to shoot.

[Buckshot]

...........Sounds like you're on to something Bruce.

"............By the time NCBS 2006 rolls around, I'll be sure to have plenty of good, tested loads for y'all to shoot."

HA! Wonder what it would cost to get the Rooles Komittee to allow it in a stake or balloon shoot?

...........Buckshot

[David R]

I had an M1 Garand, didn't care for it much. I ended up trading it for my 22-250. An M1A always interested me, now more than ever. Thanks BruceB

David

[JDL]

Hey, it looks as if you've got the M1A perking. I'll bet if you keep the 35 grain charge and use a heavier boolit the velocity will be even higher. I found this to be true when using a .30-30 and 4831.
Did you have much unburned powder left in the bore? -JDL

[BruceB]

JDL, pard;

That is precisely what the next batch consists of, 311284 (222 grains) with the same 35 grain charge of H4831 plus a couple of additional loads at 36 and 37 grains. Also, I loaded 311299 with 36 and 37 grains of the same stuff for trials.

I'm off work on Tuesday and Wednesday, and hope to fire these rounds then. The weather is cold and nasty , but being able to shoot from inside Der 'wagen sure helps that situation a lot.

It seems I have enough different boolit designs in the appropriate weight bracket (150-220, I think is reasonable) to keep experiments running for a long time.

I intend to stay with the slower-burning range of powders for at least a while, and there are many candidates there as well. IMR4831 and 4350 seem obvious, and "45-2.1" has strongly recommended AA3100 for this application, too. If I could get a good accurate load with something in the 180 grain-200-plus bullets at maybe 2000 fps, I'd be pretty well content. All I really want is a load which allows reaching 200 yards or so with a good chance of hitting accurately at that distance.

Of course, "good enough" is never really good enough, and I reckon I'm doomed to experiment until my shooting days are over!

Good functioning is also a requirement, but it sure doesn't look like that'll be a problem, given the results so far.

311284 has to be seated to about 2.722" over-all length to keep the front band out of the rifling origin. 311299 and 311672 can be seated a tad over 2.780" and still chamber freely. Rounds MUST be free-chambering for these semi-autos, without any restrictions due to land contact, etc.

I'll be running tests with 311466 and 311467, 155 and 180 grains, as well. Both are the Loverin design, with feed-friendly shapes and reputations for good accuracy. Then I have 311334, 311314, and a bunch of others that will likely get trial runs. I can see a LOT of shooting ahead.

This project is also the first serious use of my new chronograph, a 'CED Millennium' from Dillon Precision, courtesy of my wife. So far, it's been a real revelation in ease of use and excellent function. Hope that continues!

[BruceB]

On today's trip to the range with the M1A, I fired some 311284s (222 grains in my water-dropped WW alloy, .311", Felix lube, Hornady gaschecks), as well as some 311299s, same as on the last occasion.

From 50 yards, off Der Schuetzenwagen's benchrest, I got the following results with H4831 powder and CCI #34 primers:

311284, 35.0 grains, av 1697; es 91, sd 28; 10 rounds scattered to 2.8".

311284, 36.0 grains, av 1770; es 81; sd 32; 10 rounds scattered to 3.1".

I dry-brushed the bore for forty strokes at this point.

311284, 37.0 grains, av 1815; es 168!?!?; sd 54; 5 rds in 1.04" and 4 in 0.40"....the widest shot was called "out" as soon as the hammer fell.


311299, 210 grains: 36.0 H4831: av 1575; es 63; sd 29; 4 in 0.45", fifth round tipping and making the group 1.01"

311299, 37.0 grains, av 1651; es 146; sd 53; 5 in 1.15".

I don't like the wide velocity spreads in some of these, but I'm gonna keep working with this H4831 with more loads and see what sort of history accumulates. Clearly there is some hope in the experience so far. It'll be interesting to see what powders just a tad quicker might do, and I'll try IMR4831 and 4350 soon.

Temps today were much cooler at around 40 degrees, but rifle and ammo aren't affected much since they are inside the van. I did find that even firing every thirty seconds never heated the barrel beyond mildly warm to the touch.

The rifle continues its unbroken record of PERFECT function, at over 500 rounds so far. I like it better and better, every time I take it out!

[Fireball 57]

Got one of those myself. I often wondered about the Pb in the gas cylinder thing. It"s double lugged into the Kevlar stock. I guess I'll have to keep wondering. Great report on the M1A. :)

[David R]

BruceB,

I buy one gun a year. Keep it up and It will be an M1A.

David

[BruceB]

Continuing tests with 4831, but this time with IMR 4831, NOT H4831. Good weather, 45 degrees, some gusts of 20 mph or so.

311284, same specs as before:

37.0 IMR 4831: average 1907 fps; extreme spread 56; standard deviation 17.

50-yard group stringing vertically, 2.8" for 10 rounds. Note that velocity is almost 100 fps higher than with H4831.

311467 Loverin, same as before:

37.0 IMR 4831: av 1860; es 89; sd 30

This was a bit of a puzzle. The first round landed several inches high with the hole clearly indicating a tipping or yawing bullet. The next two came in an inch or so below the first one, nice round holes.The last seven formed a separate group an inch or so lower yet, and all seven snuggled into 0.8". All shots were called good from a very solid rest.

311467, 38.0 IMR 4831: av 1928; es 75; sd 22. Ten rounds formed a loose-but-round "group" of 2.3"....but it looked better than the mess created with 37.0 grains.

When loading this last bunch, I sorta "discovered" some linotype .311" .30 HBC boolits hangin' out on the bench, so, "Why not?" (Sigh) THIS is "why not?"

.30HBC, 35.0 IMR 4831: av 1789; es 88; sd 39, figures taken from only five rounds fired.

Four rounds grouped in a lateral 1.8", and the FIRST round was four inches below those four. Again, all shots called good from the rest.

.30 HBC, 38.0 IMR 4831: av 1912; es 53; sd 18. Ten rounds in 5.5" at 50 yards....yuck.

What I've been doing with this rifle so far is identifying load levels that allow it to function, plus some interested watching for indications of future accuracy loads. I'm pleased as all get-out with the rifle to date, so now I moved into another uncharted zone for my semi-autos by trying a load with IMR 4198.

I KNOW the 4831s are "too slow" for the 7.62 NATO... but they work fine at low pressure, even with wider velocity spreads than I like. I also KNOW that the 4198s are "too fast" for the same cartridge IN A SEMI-AUTO.... but with the way the rifle tolerates low port pressure from 4831, I wanted to make an assessment of 4198 in the same rifle.

311467, 22.0 IMR 4198, dacron fill: av 1838; es 63; sd 19. The group was fully 3" for ten rounds at 50 yards.

The load was carefully chosen by comparing personal previous safe loads with the same powder and similar bullets in the .303 British, .30-40 and .30-06.

Allowing for differences in case capacity and other factors, I came up with 22 grains, and it performed exactly as expected, since my forecast was 1800 +/- for the load fired today. 1800 fps happens to be about where I want my future plinking and target loads to be, too, so the estimate was dead-on for my purposes. The REAL question was how the rifle would function, and ....it doesn't quite digest this load. It ejected all ten cases successfully, but failed to feed the next round on every shot, which naturally means the bolt isn't coming back far enough to pick up the next round. This of course is no fault of the M1A, since I was feeding it ammunition which simply failed to develop enough pressure at the gas port. It MIGHT function properly with 311284, it being forty or so grains heavier, but I think for now I'll drop down the burning-rate ladder a tad and try some 3031 and 4895 loads.

It's fascinating, being able to actually SEE the different burning rates modify the rifle's function. I've been through this with quite a few semi-autos over the years, and it is always an interesting quest.

[BruceB]

It was a grand, glorious, beautiful day on the range...and the weather was pretty good, too.

Trying to get some rifles in trim for the Nevada Shoot next month, I took an assortment of goodies to the range today. The battery included the M1A. I zeroed my Ruger 77 in 7.62x39 at 1" high @ 50 yards, followed by Karen's M77 .270 with a similar zero. Both grouped VERY well, under an inch in the final groups.

The M1A came last, as I had about a dozen experimental loads to run. My rifle does NOT like the classic 311284 bullet in any load yet tried, as witness below:

311284 (WW, water-dropped, .311" sizing, felix lube) ALL WITH DACRON

28.0 IMR 3031: 1848 avg; 126 extreme spread; 35 std dev; 3.5"/10 rds/50yd

29.0 3031: 1940 av; 44 es; 14 sd; 3.5"/10 rds/50

30.0 3031: 2002 av; 58 es; 22 sd; 5"(!)/10 rds/50

31.0 3031: 2034 av; 39 es; 13 sd; 3.7"/10rds/50

32.0 3031 2084 av; 78 es; 20 sd; 4.0"/10 rds/50

I was pretty downcast after all this, questioning the rifle, the ammo, and my shooting. However....

311672 (WW, water-dropped, .311", felix lube) ALL WITH DACRON

27.0 3031: 1764 av; 101 es; 37sd; 2.25"/10/50, but with 7 in 1.2"

28.0 3031: 1830 av; 159 es; 52 sd; 2.4"/10/50, but eight in 1.10"

29.0 3031: 1917 av; 140 es; 42 sd; 2.1"/10/50, 8 rounds in 1.2"

30.0 3031: 2000 av; 90 es; 30 sd; 1.5"/10/50, and 9 in 0.90"

31.0 3031: 2046 av; 90 es; 30 sd; 1.4"/10/50, and 9 in 0.80"!

...and for the grand finale, the last group I shot today involved a load which I reduced slightly from an earlier attempt. #311467, the 180-grain Loverin, had shown a few tipping bullets when loaded over 37.0 of OLD H-4831, but still put eight rounds into 0.70" the last time out. I decided to see if reducing the speed might also stop that tipping, and that's exactly what happened:

311467 (WW, water-dropped, .311", felix lube) NO FILLER:

35.0 OLD H-4831: 1694 av; 56 es; 18 sd: TEN ROUNDS IN 0.60" at fifty yards. I have done found my load for the Nevada Shoot, I do believe...

All groups were shot with the issue iron sights. Perfect function was achieved with all listed loads on this expedition, including locking the action open on the last round. Groups were fired starting with all ten rounds in the magazine. (One minute between shots, five minutes between strings) All shooting was done from Der Schuetzenwagen's benchrest with the help of a Cabela's "Ultimate" rest, which does NOT have all those fine-tuning micrometer super whatsits all over it...just a pair of felt-lined cradles for butt and fore-end.

I'm including all the 'bummers' simply as information for anyone looking for data regarding functioning issues for 7.62 NATO rifles in the future.

I LIKE THIS RIFLE. 311672 has started showing some real promise, but my mould for that 'un is a measly 2-cav job, and I have a FOUR-cavity 311467! Gee, I wonder which one gets the nod....?

[StarMetal]

Bruce,

Hey pardner...that's some damn good shooting with iron sights. Looks like you indeed do have your load. I think it's very cool you're getting a M1A to shoot cast and function and with accuracy.

Joe

[Buckshot]

.............Heck Bruce, 0.600" at 50 yards for TEN ROUNDS at 1700 fps and the rifle cycles. Yeah, I think I'd stop there and call it good. What the heck else would you do for an encore? Looks like the ole 311284 may have had guidance issues.

.................Buckshot

[BruceB]

That 0.60 surprised me, too, since I'm really having trouble seeing iron sights clearly of late.

The targets are a standard pistol "center" folded precisely in half, so that the aiming mark is a black semi-circle with the flat side down. This is placed on a blank piece of paper so there's a clean contrast for silhouetting the sights. I find the flat bottom of the aiming mark gives a more-visible index both for elevation of the front sight, and also for minimizing any tendency toward canting of the rifle. This isn't my invention, as the Canadian Army was using the idea for probably about a hundred years now, and that's where I picked up the concept.

I fired the first three rounds of this group before peeking into the spotting scope, and then wondered where the rounds had all gone. Turned out they were all snuggled into the same biggish hole right at 12 o'clock on the line of the ten-ring...call it two inches high and dead-center for windage. After the preceding scattergun performances, it was mighty nice to see. I immediately went into that inner turmoil state of "DON'T SCREW THIS UP, DUMMY!!!!" which I'm sure everyone will recognize. With seven rounds still in the rifle, it was an exercise in self-control, lemme tell y'all.

Getting home, I quickly ran an inventory for boolits....311467, check. WW, water-dropped, check. .311", check. Felix lube, check. ....and it turns out that I have about 800 bullets of PRECISELY that description READY TO LOAD. What a wonderful state-of-being that is! Those coming to the Nevada Shoot will be able to try this rifle out for themselves, with plenty of ammo on hand. I don't even have to mess with my beloved dacron in this load.

Seems like sometimes, though rarely, things actually do work out.

[StarMetal]

Bruce,

That group also speaks for your fast and consistent casting method. Good show ole chap.

Joe

[Buckshot]

................Re: "Just coming together".

I've had a couple instances of this whilst stumbling and bumbleing around without rhyme or reason. Not to say YOU were :-) One was with the SR Mauser in 35 Rem. My one real 35 cal rifle boolit for it is the Saeco # 356, a 200gr FP with GC. Doing load work surp WC846 seemed to be in the right speed realm so I started a bit below what I thought a good statring load would be. Then loaded enough (60 rounds ) incrementaly until the boolit's bum was firmly on, but not compressing the dropped charge.

At first I wouldn't have bet a plugged nickle on a positive outcome. Yet I felt the easiest way to rid myself of the ammo was to unload it through the muzzle. As I shot, it became a bit interesting. Then moreso. I had started too low with this powder. As the case filled, two neat things happened. The velocity increased which is to be expected. But also the velocity variations disappeared and the groups tightened.

As I fired off the last 3 five round groups the velocity tipped over 2300 fps and the rounds ended up snuggleing right down into a scant inch at 50 yards. There we go! Stop right there, plant a couple trees and build a house as I'm home.

The other was the 7.62x39 in another SR Mauser. Ditto pretty much with surp 4895. A full caseload under the Lee C312-155-2R nets 1950 fps and stack'em right in on top of each other. Throw away all the other effluvium in the notebook and cast that load in concrete :-)

..................Buckshot

[BruceB]

.............Looks like the ole 311284 may have had guidance issues..................Buckshot

These range results made me curious about the actual dimensions of the 284s, too.

The mould is an older 'Ideal' -marked single cavity, for which I waited a long time before it came up on Ebay. I prefer the older ones in many cases, because they often cast a bit fatter than current-production moulds.

Checking the dimensions of the actual bullets in the batch fired on the day in question, I find that the nose is .2995" and the bands are right at .311", so I really don't see much in the way of problematic dimensions. I'd rather have the nose more like .301", but....?

However, I can take a hint, as administered by the 311467/H4831 load that shot so beautifully. I now have over 500 rounds loaded with that combo for the entertainment of visitors. I also think the M1A will be my iron-sight "competition" rifle... why not? It's outshooting all of my iron-equipped bolt-actions! In loading all those 500+ rounds, I visually checked every single powder charge, simply because of the long-stick format of the 4831 granules. I found exactly ONE instance wherein the charge did not drop from my Uniflow, but that one occurrence made all the checking worthwhile.

In an effort to avoid this in the future, I plan to do two things...one is to try the load with H4831 SC (short-cut) and the other is to run a series with H 335 or maybe something a bit slower in ball powders. The ball types make for greater confidence when running big batches on the Dillon 550, since they pour like water. H335 does NOT work at all well in my .30-06s, and in the Garand H 335 gave repeated and consistent hangfires. (I'm finding 335 rather useful in my new Interarms .223, giving me 3290 fps from the 20" barrel with 52-grain match HPs, and with good accuracy.)

[Buckshot]

..................BruceB, do a test if you would, when you have a chance. Take 10 of those 311284's and when they are fully in the lube die apply some extra grunt to see if you can't form a bulge rigth there at the turn of the ogive. Carefull as that old scraper groove in front of the top drive band can allow the nose to lean over. Ask me how I know :-)

Of course you have a fantastic load already, but it would be interesting to see if it made a difference.

Mike'em to see if they come up to 0.300"+ or more. Load'em and shoot'em and see what happens. I had a Lyman 400gr 40 cal mould for my 40-65 and it wouldn't shoot fer beans. The nose was like .398" or some such. I bumped them in the lube press and danged if they didn't do twice as good. I shucked the mould, cause heck if I'm gonna do that all day to a bunch of 40 cal boolits! Got a RCBS 410gr mould, and no problems.

...............Buckshot

[NVcurmudgeon]

Awk! A "Pogo Stick" shooting into 0.60" at fifty yards? Looks like big trouble for the dueling Springfields at this year's NCBS. Multi magna congratulations!

[BruceB]

Right now I am regretting braying about the wonderful .60 group, at least in public like this.

What if it was the ONE occasion when ten flyers fluked into the same hole????? What if it NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN????? My sorrow would be boundless.

Gotta have faith...gotta have faith....ommmmm.... ommmmm..... will Hare Krishna meditations and chants help?....ommmmmm.... Naw, fergit it.

Careful loading and careful triggering WILL let the rifle shine. I BELIEVE, pilgrims!! (So there....get thee behind me, Satan!)

[BruceB]

The M1A survived the glare of publicity at the Nevada Shoot in pretty good fashion, I'd say. That load which gave me the wonderful 0.60" group was mass-produced for our honored guests to try, and I had close to 500 rounds of the recipe on hand when it all started.

Checking just a few minutes ago, I seem to have something less than 100 rounds remaining, and a LOT of empty brass. What impressed me the most was the utter EASE with which everyone was hitting the gongs, from off-hand, yet! Deputy Al's first shot (from standing) at the 6" round 100-yard gong was dead-center, and I suspect his hit average over about forty rounds was 95% or better, on a variety of steel targets. Others did equally well, and I think Curmudgeon on one occasion emptied all fifteen rounds from the magazine (all that I'd stuffed-in, before giving it to him) without a miss.

The 311467/35.0 H4831 load is JUST marginal for function. While it worked 100% from the benchrest, it would occasionally fail to open the bolt far enough for ejection when fired off-hand. Some unburned powder appeared in the action area, but nothing was left in the bore except some very fine dusty-looking debris in the bottom of the bore. NO leading appeared, even when the rifle was so hot I couldn't hold the HANDGUARD, never mind the barrel!

I took advantage of having my whole outfit set up on the range to test-fire a few new and different loads in the M1A. Since I didn't have my usual grouping targets posted, I just fired for chrono readings and function. H4831 SHORT CUT, loaded on the Dillon 550, ran a wee bit faster than the original H4831, and seemed to function well. A few loads with H335, again loaded on the 550B, also functioned well and gave standard deviations as low as TWO fps and extreme spreads down into the single digits on five-round samples. I'm eager to get these loads out for a full accuracy trial!

Note that 4831 Short Cut metered perfectly in the 550, and I checked every round to make sure! H335, of course, is a slam dunk for easy metering. I intend to get out for some extensive shooting next week, and will post results here.

The longer this rifle stays with me, the better I like it.

[9.3X62AL]

Shooting Bruce's M1A evoked some fine memories, in addition to being highly accurate and pleasant to fire. If someone wants a GOOD example of the M-14/M1A variants for shooting and overall enjoyment, I can recommend the Fulton Armory examples like those that Bruce owns without reservation.

Personal preference maybe.....I shoot Garand-based rifles a LOT better than I do "new pattern" (AR-15, HK-91, FN-LAR) designs. I know damn well that AR's are intrinsically a LOT more accurate than are Mini-14's, but all that aside--I still hit critters better with the Mini. Maybe it's all that smog I've breathed in since birth here in the People's Respooblik--or perhaps all those chemicals I was around during my drug lab days--have altered my chromosomes or something.

As much as I enjoy the M1A, the cost of running them caused me to sell the example I had, as well as an HK-91 that was due to become an assault rifle when CA lost its mind permanently and irretrievably in 1989. The success of Bruce's cast boolit work in his rifle causes me to re-think this matter. Rather than hijack this thread, I'll start another that deals with the subject of Mini-14's and cast boolits.

[BruceB]

Friend Al;

You musta missed the thread last fall wherein I reported that I had abandoned the Fulton Armory rifle.

This M1A I now own is a bone-stock Springfield Armory "loaded" rifle (Model # 9222, I think). Being that it is such a basic rifle, it seems all the more impressive to me. My cost was $1450 out the door of a shop in South Dakota, via Gunsamerica.com. I'm blessed if I can see how any more-expensive rifle could suit me any better for MY purposes (meaning, not needing a "match"-quality rifle).

[StarMetal]

Bruce,

I didn't miss it. I was wondering "hey Bruce bought a Springfield, how'd he show up with a Fulton?".

Joe

[9.3X62AL]

Oops--now that I read this, I recall that we spoke about this while enroute to Alberta. Sheesh! Sorry about that.

The rifle still shot right well, and since those Springfields can still be imported into the PRC, it gives hope to the gun-enjoying proletariat in this Worker's Paradise.

[BruceB]

Went to the gravel pit today for more work with the M1A.

Included were loads using 311413 (170 spitzer) 311467 (Loverin 180) 311672 (167 "semi-spitzer") and SAECO #305 (180 flat-tipped "spitzer"). Powders included H4831 Short Cut and H 335.

Although H4831 gave me that wonderful group referred to earlier, I'm now ruling it out as a long-term powder for the cast-bullet role in this cartridge, at least until I decide to try for much higher speeds-and-pressures to get the stuff burning better. This includes both regular and Short Cut 4831.

After observing over 400 rounds fired with H4831 at NCBS, and after firing a considerable number of rounds using it today, I see that there's just too much unburned powder left in the action and chamber (not in the barrel). This leftover powder has caused a number of malfunctions, so it is not a viable candidate. Note that the #34 primer I'm using is generally considered as being a Magnum-intensity sparkplug, too.

H335 is a much more satisfactory powder, so far. It's burning quite cleanly at rather low speeds, and accuracy is good enough to warrant a lot more research.

I have my Logbooks from both the home bench and Der Schuetzenwagen here at work with me, but unfortunately failed to either enter the target results in the books, or bring the targets with me. I'll try to recall the high points as I list the loads, anyway.

As usual, all the boolits are straight wheelweight alloy, cast fast and hot, water-dropped, sized .311" and lubed with Felix lube. Gator checks on the SAECOs today! NO case fillers were used.

311413, 26.0 H335: 1752 average, 44 extreme spread, 14 std deviation,
1.5"/10 rds/50 yards

same boolit, 28.0 H335: 1857 av, 82 es, 21 sd group about 2"/10/50

same, 30.0 H335: 1974 av, 66 es, 19 sd

same, 35.0 H4831SC: 1667 av, 76 es, 27 sd.

same, 37.0 H4831SC: 1812 av, 126 es, 38 sd


311467: 30.0 H335: 1970 av, 80 es, 22 sd

same, 35.0 H4831SC: 1675 av, 131 es, 41 sd

same,37.0 H4831SC: 1817 av, 81 es, 22 sd


311672, 35.0 H4831SC: 1528 av, 57 es, 20 sd

same, 37.0 H4831SC: 1649 av, 98 es, 30 sd


SAECO #305, 26.0 H335: 1735 av, 60 es, 19 sd ....1.2"/10 rds/50

same, 28.0 H335: 1830 av, 77 es, 20 sd

same, 30.0 H335: 1940 av, 53 es, 16 sd........1.1"/10 rds/50

same, 36.0 H4831SC: 1769 av, 49 es, 14 sd

Also fired 38.0 H4831SC with SAECO #305 but chrono battery went flat and I got no valid readings for the string.

All the above readings are based on ten rounds per load. All rounds were magazine-loaded for firing, ten rounds per magazine. Pressures are quite low in all cast-bullet loads tried in the M1A to date. The H335 loads function much more "snappily" than the H4831, as we might expect. The fastest loads today were starting to actually feel a bit like a service load should....

It was cool enough today (mid-40s) that the barrel never got beyond mildly warm, and I was able to fire about every 15-30 seconds without heating things up at all. A curious phenomenon showed itself in three of the groups with 311413. Even though the first five or six rounds scattered with gay abandon across two or three inches of paper, the last four or five grouped VERY TIGHTLY in just about the middle of the previous impacts, and by that, I mean one small ragged hole for four or five rounds! I certainly didn't change anything in the shooting technique, and it did happen three times, not just once. Hmmmm...?

I'll say it again! The more I shoot this rifle, the better I like it.

[NVcurmudgeon]

Bruce, I see that you are shooting ten-shot groups. Way to go, you are unlikely to be fooled by a lucky group of five and have to repeat unpromising loads.

[9.3X62AL]

Bruce--

If H-335 continues its good work in that SPRINGFIELD, you might try one of the surplus powders (WC-846 comes to mind) to reduce fuel costs further. If I get off my aspirations and get another one of these, the surplus powders will be part of the plan.

[StarMetal]

Deputy Al,

Surplus 844 is closer to H335. I've been shooting it and the jug states to use H335 data to reload with it.

Joe

[BruceB]

Yep, that is "De plan, Boss, de plan!!!!"

I'm trying to get a small herd of my co-workers all going the same direction for a group buy of powders from Bartlett or someone similar. H335/844 is NOT compatible with my Garand, but I see that surplus 4895 is again available, and that is very good stuff in many cartridges and rifles (including the Garand).

I'll try some of my commercial 4895 in the M1A in the next few days, and see how it runs in that role. I do like the ball powders for ease and safety of measurement in the Dillon 550. Going back through my records a while back, I found a depressingly-high number of "best results" occurred when using SURPLUS 4895, of which I now "don't got none".

One thing about the M1A, it makes its preferences known in no mistaken terms....

[StarMetal]

Bruce,

Wideners in TN has the surplus 4895.

Joe

[BruceB]

"HELL-oooo, Boys, I'm BAAAAaaack!!!!" (just before the F-15(?) crashes in a vertical climb into the alien ship's control center, "Independence Day")

Yep, I'm back with more results obtained yesterday with the M1A. I took about 18 loads to the range, ten rounds per recipe, and a few were so bad that some of the rounds are awaiting dis-assembly on the bench. It'd be a waste of the components to fire them!

I was bumping the velocity upwards on purpose, and it seems that at a certain point the boolits just gave up, as may be expected. However, there were some encouraging results, as well. Since abandoning H4831 for the reasons already stated, I moved down (up?) the burning-rate ladder to some faster powders, namely, commercial H4895, IMR 4320, and IMR 3031. All these powders function the rifle with authority in all loads tested yesterday, and in all cases as well, the brass was FAR cleaner than with 4831, indicating a much-better sealing of the chamber with the higher pressures obtained with faster powders.

I made one of my usual "calculated guesstimates" with the 4320 loads, and sure enough, the starting level was very safe and comfy. The next increments were a leetle hotter, and in the next go-round, I'll be loading DOWN from my initial level with 311467 (Loverin 180).

So:

All boolits were sized .311", water-dropped WW, Felix lube, all LC88 brass, CCI #34 primers.


SAECO #305, 167 grains, 28.0 H4895 NO FILL: 1865 fps average, 72 extreme spread, 24 std deviation, 1.4"/10 rds/50 yards.

same, WITH DACRON, 28.0 H4895: 1986 av, 71 es, 20 sd, 1.6"/10/50...dacron didn't do much except raise the speed a tad.

same, 30.0 H4895: 2038 av, 76 es, 26 sd, FOUR INCHES/10/50

same, 32.0 H4895: 2186 av, 59 es, 17 sd, 2.5"/10/50


311467, 180 Loverin, 28.0 H4895: 1891 av, 78 es, 21 sd, 1.5"/8/50 (two rounds called out)

same, 30.0 H4895: 2024 av, 80 es, 28 sd, 1.5"/10/50

same, 32.0 H4895: 2181 av, 102 es, 34 sd....this is where 467 quit on me...FIVE inches for FIVE rounds at 50! Brought the other five home with me.

same, 36.0 IMR 4320: 2275 av, 88 es, 27 sd: 4"/10/50


311291, 170 RN, 36.0 4320: 2242 av, 72 es, 22 sd, 3.8"/5/50, again, the last five came home with me. This VERY "roundnosed roundnose" functions perfectly in the M1A, BTW.

311413, 170 spire-point, 36.0 4320: 2243 av, 18 es, no sd, SIX inches for THREE rounds at 50!! (Sigh), seven more rounds to break down. All three boolit holes showed tipping, too.


311672, 170 semi-spitzer, 30.0 IMR 3031: 1936 av, 103 es, 31 sd, 2.0"/10/50

same, 31.0 3031: 1968 av, 118 es, 33 sd, 2.2"/10/50


311466, 150 loverin, 30.0 3031: 2047 av, 70 es, only 4 rds fired... FIVE-plus inches for FOUR rds/50. Guess where the remainder are? Didn't even fire the 31.0 load, and all ten are in the breaker's yard.

I seat both 311466 and 311467 to the same overall length, as they have identical nose shapes. I discovered yesterday that the length I've been using is TOO LONG to allow loaded rounds to be extracted from the chamber....they leave the boolits jammed in the throat! I'm rather surprised at this development, because the rounds function fine and have no hesitation in chambering. However, after two doses of 'powder-in-the-action-and-get-the-cleaning-rod-Charlie', I again am taking a hint and will check more carefully when I adopt a NEW seating depth for these boolits.

At about the 2000 fps mark, the rifle begins acting more like a service rifle and actually lifts off the rest a bit in recoil. Below that point, it's just a big ol' baby on
the bench.

After firing these higher-speed loads, inspection of the bore shows no particular fouling of any description, let alone leading. The interior shines like a mirror.

Again, I'm reporting in some detail in hopes that the info will be useful to other casters in the future. I'm really trying to establish safe-level loads for others to START from, not defining "the very bestest, most accuratest load" ....just good working levels with which to begin. There's not very much data out there for cast boolits in autoloading rifles.

Back to the drawing board.

[Scrounger]

HELL-oooo, Boys, I'm BAAAAaaack!!!!" (just before the F-15(?) crashes in a vertical climb into the alien ship's control center, "Independence Day")

F-16---Our only single seat fighter, I believe...

Oops, had to edit. Forgot about the Navy's F18...

[BruceB]

Now, now.... I put the subject in my post, so I reckon I'm the guilty party here (not that wandering topics draw much flak, thank Heaven).

The reason I put a "?" behind "F-15", is because I wasn't sure if it was a -15 or an -18, which are rather similar platforms. The F-16 is easily identified, with that big single airscoop under the cockpit, and the single tail empennage, and it wasn't a -16 that was pictured on the kamikaze climb.

I did a quick Google search on this, and all I came up with was a reference to Will Smith's character being "an F/A-18 pilot". I can't seem to locate our video copy of the movie, but it's here somewhere. Might have another viewing, if it turns up. Good summer entertainment (meaning, "Good to drink beer with, and ya don't have to think a whole lot, neither!".

I have to put a couple hundred LC88 cases in the tumbler now....

[BruceB]

In yesterday's episode, I found that while my starting-load selection with 4320 was right where I expected it be for velocities and pressures with the different bullets, the loads did NOT perform at all well as the charges were increased.

I therefore loaded three different bullet types with three incrementally-decreasing charges of 4320. The boolits were 311672, 311291, and 311467. The charges (of 4320) were 34.0, 32.0, and 30.0 grains, decreased from that starting load of yesterday, which was 36.0 grains.. I fired them in order of weight with each bullet...that is, I shot the 311291 loads in order from 30 to 32 to 34 grains, hoping to see any changes in behavior that might arise. I did see them, too.... The same order-of-fire was used with the other designs,as well.

Beginning with 311467, the 180 Loverin, the first round fired with 30.0 grains was over FOUR INCHES left of the point of aim. The next nine rounds were right in the x- and ten-ring of the 50-yd pistol center that I'm using at 50 yards (but folded in half to create a black semi-circle aiming mark). Velocity was 1816 fps average, 29 fps extreme spread, 9 fps std deviation. Group was 2.0"/9 rds/50 yds.... I didn't include the first round in the group measurement .

311467, 32.0 4320: 2000 av, 67 es, 18 sd...... and again, the FIRST round was fully four inches to the left of the group which developed in the x- and ten-rings! The remaining 9 rounds grouped 1.6".

311467, 32.0 4320: 2141 av, 63 es, 19 sd. All rounds landed within the so-called "group", which was 3.1"/10/50.

The flagrant straying of the first rounds absolutely mandates that I re-fire these loads with the addition of a dacron tuft. I strongly suspect that there's something going on with the powder positioning in the chambering of the first round, even though I just pull back the charging handle and release it to slam closed by itself. Since the same phenomenon repeated itself with 311291, although to a lesser degree, it may be that the powder is just on the edge of good burning, and the different positioning in the case might make the difference.

311291, the roundnose, illustrated clearly that yesterday's loads were driving too hard for its tastes.

311291, 30.0 4320: 1866 av, 95 es, 28 sd, 2.2"/10/50. The group was only 1/2" high, but spread pretty wide across the ten-ring.

same, 32.0 4320: 2055 av, 89 es, 27 sd, 3"/10/50.....just a loosely scattered group with nothing unusual about it.

same, 34.0 4320:2161 av, 124 es, 37 es...and a HORRIBLE 'group' (HA!), six- inches- plus in sprawl.

311672 did pretty well to begin with.

311672, 30. 0 4320: 1868 av, 79 es, 30 sd, 1.3"/10/50. Nice group, compared to some others!

same, 32.0 4320: 1976 av, 80 es, no sd reading, 1.6"/9/50... the tenth round was a flyer two inches out at 10:00, no explanation. It was called "good".

same, 34.0 4320: 2116 av, 116 es (high!), no sd reading, 2.5"/10/50....just a general loosening of the group as it neared the load levels from yesterday.

All rounds fired today functioned the rifle perfectly.

The Nevada zephyrs were out in force! It was so bad that I eventually found a BRICK (no kidding) which I used to dampen the flailing-around of my chronograph boom. I did this by duct-taping from the brick on the ground up to the outer end of the boom with considerable tension on the tape. I also had to run duct-tape from the boom just outside the rear doors of the van to the upwind side of the vehicle, to keep the boom from slewing violently down-wind in the gusts (I did this first, and added the brick rig later). The normal retaining notches were not up to the job in the gale.

I estimate the gusts at around 40 mph, and today was the first time I've felt the van actually moving very much in wind. It has a one-ton suspension, so it's pretty stiff. In the lulls which came occasionally, I'd sometimes fire three or four rounds in quick succession to take advantage of the condition. All the wind whistling through Der 'wagen kept barrel heat well under control. At only fifty yards, and with the wind mostly fish-tailing or quartering from behind, I don't believe it affected my results very much.

The learning process goes on....

[StarMetal]

Bruce,

When I want to shoot one of my tuned 1911's for a accrucacy test I never shoot the first round I jack into the chamber. I shoot it elsewhere, then I continue on with the test. I firmly believe SOMETHING is different with a round hand chambers then one chambered by the firearm in semi-auto firearms. You may be on to something with the powder position.

Joe

[BruceB]

I loaded ten rounds of the 311476/30.0 4320 recipe, PLUS DACRON, and took them to the range this morning.

The rifle was loaded with only one round in the magazine for test-firing, and this one-round routine was used with all ten rounds. With the single round in the mag, the operating handle was retracted and allowed to slam closed by itself.....repeated ten times, of course.

The flyers from yesterday, going four inches and more to the left, were NOT repeated. However, there were several shots which landed a couple inches high, out of the main group which formed in the ten- and x-rings.

At this load level, 4320 seems a bit fussy. I'd certainly prefer to find a powder which doesn't require dacron to give routinely-excellent accuracy. That's why I enjoy this hobby, I reckon; there's ALWAYS the possibility of something new the next time out.

[BruceB]

What better way to spend a few hours on July the Fourth, than exercising one of the great American Freedoms which are so rare in most of the world??

Changing the methodology a bit, the loads tested yesterday all used the Loverin 311466, nominally 150 grains cast in water-dropped straight wheelweight alloy, sized .311" and lubed with FWFL. No stunning accuracy resulted, but again I learned some info about different powders, etc. 311466 has worked very well for me in other .30 cartridges, so I expect some good things from it in the M1A as well.

All cases were new LC88, all primers were CCI #34. No fillers were used. The rifle functioned perfectly with all loads listed, and the range was fifty yards.

28.0 H335: 1893 fps average, 111 extreme spread, 33 sd. This load put the first three rounds under a half-inch at 9:00 in the ten-ring of the NRA 50-yard pistol target, then the POI shifted radically, two inches up and right for the next five rounds, which again grouped pretty well. The impact shift had me wondering, until I recalled a tendency for the gas plug to unscrew itself....sure enough, it had come out two full turns! Tightening the plug with a 3/8" box-end wrench which lives in the van just for that reason, I netted ANOTHER serious POI shift, this one placing the last two rounds of the ten a good three inches above the five-round group! These two holes were touching, five inches above the point of aim, and centered for windage. I lowered the sight setting before firing the next set of ten rounds.

30.0 H335: 2025 av, 57 es, 17 sd, 1.5"/10rds/50 yards

32.0 H335: 2144 av, 35 es, 10 sd, a scattery 3-inch horizontal-oval "group".

34.0 H335: 2256 av, 44 es, 15 sd, 2.25"/10/50

The earlier loads with 4831, discontinued due to malfunction-inducing unburned powder in the action, gave rise to the following attempts with IMR 4350:

35.0 IMR 4350: 1915 av, 93 es, 29 sd, 1.6"/10/50

37.0 IMR4350: 2080 av, 53 es, 16 sd, 1.4"/10/50.

There was NO unburnt powder visible anywhere in the action or bore, even with the 35.0 load. Both groups were nice and round, with no "strays". I'll definitely be doing more work with this powder-and-bullet combination! That second load looks very promising, so I'll re-fire it, plus loads with 1.0 grains lower and higher, just to see what they do. The 37.0 load is considerably more consistent in ballistic performance as demonstrated by the much-smaller extreme spread and standard deviation. The powder was obviously getting into a pressure range where it burned more efficiently.

I wasn't too impressed with IMR 3031's performance in a few previous loads, although I left a lot of stones unturned with it and will likely go back to it with different boolits. 4064 looked like a decent possibility, so:

28.0 IMR4064: 1762 av, 63 es, 21 sd, 1.1"/10/50.....not bad at all!

30.0 4064: 1923 av, 47 es, 19 sd, 1.2"/10/50, and seven rounds were clustered into 0.7"

32.0 4064, 2063 av, 115 es, 37 sd, groups starting to enlarge at 1.75"/10/50

34.0 4064: 2201 av, 76 es, 23 sd, 3.25"/10/50, but 8 rounds in 1.70".

Again, all the loads fired yesterday used 311466. One minute between shots, five minutes between strings, all rounds loaded into the magazine. Everything was loaded on the Dillon 550.

[felix]

Bruce, take it on up to 2400 fps with the two stick powders. ... felix

[Larry Gibson]

BruceB

Paaaaaleeeeeeze!!!!!!!!

"Tightening the plug with a 3/8" box-end wrench which lives in the van just for that reason"

There is supposed to be a combitnation tool along with the rest of the cleaning kit in the butt of that very fine rifle!! A wrench benders tool.....how sacraligious! Send me a PM with your address and I'l fix you up right.

Larry Gibson

[BruceB]

Now, now, Larry, take it easy, ol' pard....

I think all I'm losing with my little 3/8 wrench is some "style points", because I know the proper torque is calculated in inch-pounds, not "mega-reefs". The wrench I'm using is just about the same length as the issue device, so I'm probably not overdoing it. I am short one of the proper combo tools, and I forget all about it each time I go to the Big Reno Show.

Took the M1A out again today, and I "cranked up the volume" as Felix suggested.

It was interesting, if nothing else.

All loads with the same 311466, 150 grains+/-, straight WW, .311", Felix lube.

36.0 IMR 4350: 1883 av, 121 es, no reading for sd. 2.4"/10 rds/50 yards.

37.0 4350: 1961 av, 70 es, 19 sd. 1.8"/10/50

38.0 4350: 2057 av, 96 es, 27 sd. 1.9"/10/50

39.0 4350: 2108 av, 60 es, 19 sd. 1.0"/8/50. This was where I took a page from Buckshot's Bible and began disregarding a new problem with these loads....first-round flyers! With this particular load, the first round was three inches away from the 1" group, and the second round was somewhat less-wild.

40.0 4350: 2187 av, 59 es, 17 sd. 1.5"/9/50...and the first round was 2.8 inches above the group.

41.0 4350: 2240 av, 77 es, 28 sd. 1.0"/8/50. First round was 3 inches out at 1:00, second was 2 inches out at 9:00

Switching to IMR 4198 didn't stop the first-round problems.

26.0 4198: 2067 av, 25 es, 9 sd. 1.4"/9/50, and the first one was 3 inches away at 2:00.

27.0 4198: 2147 av, 58 es, 14 sd. 1.0"/8/50, first one 2.5" high and second round out at 4:00.

28.0 4198: forgot to turn on the chronograph! Scattery horizontal group 2.6" wide by maybe an inch high.

29.0 4198: 2267 av, 68 es, 21 sd. Groups opening up at this speed...2.2"/10/50, with 6 rounds in one inch.

30.0 4198: 2341 av, 69 es, 21 sd.....I didn't have the heart to measure this one, as it was over six inches in a vertical string.

A couple of loads with 3031...

32.0 3031: 2168 av, 39 es, 15 sd. 3.3"/10/50......ick.

34.0 3031: 2373 av, 73 es, no sd. 5.7"/10/50!!! Seven rounds managed to assemble in 1.5".

And I finished the day with a pair of IMR 4064 combos.

36.0 4064: 2364 av, 56 es, 20 sd. 4.2"/10/50, just a loose shotgun pattern with no clear tendencies. Same applies to....

38.0 4064: 2491 av, 162 es(!), 51 sd. 5"/10/50/

These targets were all fired from a very solid rest, and none of the bad shots were "called". The rifle functioned perfectly, as usual, and some may note that I used 4198 again, which I hadn't done since a couple of loads were short-stroking the rifle a few months back. It works just fine with four additional grains of powder, and my top load today was still seven full grains below Lyman's 311466/4198 max load.

As the charges of the different powders were raised, it was interesting to watch the ejection pattern change as well. The lighter ones would toss the brass back over my right shoulder (I'm a lefty), and when the top loads were reached, the cases were heading out at around 2:00, which means that the port pressure was very close to what the rifle gets with service ammunition.

I hadn't stripped the rifle for many weeks, and it seemed like a good idea to do that now, since the most-recent loads were getting well up there. If any "leading" was going to occur, it might just be there after today's shoot. NO SIREEE! The piston was well-carboned, as was the gas cylinder, but there were NO metallic deposits whatever. The action was very dirty, but the only foreign metal in that area was tiny bits of brass mixed with the usual black crud. The bore is brilliant, and I didn't bother touching it with anything.

It took ' bout twenty minutes work, and she's ready for another thousand rounds!

[BruceB]

The first-round flyers were nagging at me, so I did a quick test with dacron fill to see what might happen.

I loaded ten rounds each of 36, 37, 38, 39, and 40 grains of IMR4350, still using the 311466 bullet as before, and each round had a small dacron tuft added. There's not much room in a .308 case when forty grains of bulky powder is installed, but I wanted to try dacron just in case there was enough powder movement to make a difference. These same charges WITHOUT dacron were among those which gave the first-round-flyer results in the previous shooting.

Another possible factor (I thought) might just be all the crud, sludge and corruption which had built up in the action over the previous hundreds of rounds, and which just possibly could be making the bolt lockup slightly different when closing from the hold-open catch instead of rebounding off the back of the receiver. These latest loads were fired from the CLEAN rifle, as described in my last post. Functioning was flawless, if I have to say it.

Nope!

The groups stayed just about the same as they were without dacron, and the first-round flyers are still evident. In a way, this is a bit of a relief, since I really wasn't looking forward to using dacron in each of the hundreds of rounds I expect to be loading when a final load is determined.

Back to the drawing board. I'll try another bullet design in the next attempt, I do believe.

[StarMetal]

Bruce,

Try this and let me know what it does. Single shoot the rounds. That is single load them, not fire a magazine full. I suspect that when an action is hand operated on the first round that something is different then when the rifle functions itself.

Joe

[grumpy one]

Bruce, since you are not cleaning the rifle between groups, just what is different about those first rounds that is causing flyers? If you always get them, it has to be something that happens every time, but it obviously isn't the difference in powder charge or it would apply to every round fired with the new charge. Are you pausing for cool-down between groups, but not within groups? If so, this could be a barrel-temperature thing perhaps.

Your description just doesn't say what is different when you start a new group, compared with all of the other shots you are firing - but if there is a distinctive difference in the results then something clearly is different, you just haven't yet stated what it is.

Geoff

[grumpy one]

Bruce,

Try this and let me know what it does. Single shoot the rounds. That is single load them, not fire a magazine full. I suspect that when an action is hand operated on the first round that something is different then when the rifle functions itself.

Joe

Sorry Joe, I guess the replication time to Australia caught me out here - I didn't need to post, since you had already said pretty much the same thing.


Geoff

[BruceB]

Reviewing where I've been with this rifle and its ammunition, it occurred to me that perhaps the quicker-burning end of the chart needed some more attention. 4198, for instance, was giving a few positive hints along the way.

Going back in my records with other calibers of roughly-similar volume, I found some indicators that XMP5744 might be worth a trial. I KNOW it works very well with cast boolits in such as the .30-40 and .303, but....would it function in a gas-operated autoloader???

Using both 311466 (150 grains) and 311467 (170 grains) I loaded a series of test recipes with 22, 23, 24, 25, and 26 grains of 5744. That is, ten rounds of each charge weight were loaded under BOTH bullets, for a total of 100 rounds. What really made this simple was that the boolits are the same shape and seated to the same overall length, meaning no die adjustments were needed during the process.

Bullets are straight WW, sized .311", water-dropped from the mould and lubed with Felix stuff. Brass is LC88 military, primers CCI #34.

311466 (150 grains):

22.0 5744: 1821 average, 56 extreme spread, 16 std deviation, 2.4"/10 rds/50 yards. The rifle worked s-l-o-w-l-y.....but it did work, going "schlunk...schlunk" as it functioned. It even locked open after the last round. Recoil was comically light. Note that the velocity is fairly high for a starting load, while port pressure was obviously quite low due to the quick burning-rate of the 5744.

23.0 5744: 1933 av, 38 es, 14 sd. 2.6"/10/50...but 8 in 1.0"!

24.0 5744: 1996 av, 38 es, 12 sd. 1.2"/10/50

25.0 5744: 2070 av, 45 es, 12 sd. 1.4"/10/50, but nine rounds in 0.9"!!

26.0 5744: 2126 av, 41 es, 13 sd. This is where the 466 got unhappy, and the group was fully 3" for 10 rounds, with all shots called "good".


311467 (170 grains):

22.0 5744: 1796 av, 41 es, 11 sd. 2.4"/10/50

23.0 5744: 1899 av, 46 es, 14 sd. 2.4"/10/50

24.0 5744: 1945 av, 27 es, 8 sd. 1.8"/10/50

25.0 5744: 2011 av, 66 es, 19 sd. 2.2"/10/50

26.0 5744: 2062 av, 30 es, 9 sd. 2.0"/9/50, and a first-round flyer an inch further out.

Pressures were my main concern in working-up with this relatively-fast powder. It was easy to see the differences in primer contours as pressure went up, and also the ejection pattern changed along with the increasing charges. The gasport pressure never did get to "factory" level, judging by the fall of the cases. However, chamber pressure was certainly healthy at the top of the series. Even so, the primers NEVER came anywhere close to flattening as much as they do with a match-standard load with 168 Matchkings at 2600 fps. My ease in confidently "reading primers" is an advantage arising from the fact that I have never, ever, used a primer other than the #34 in this rifle, from the day I got it, or brass other than my original batch of unfired LC88.

Once the charge got into the 24-grain area, the functioning was very positive and clearly the ammo had plenty of oomph for a reserve of functioning "power".

The rifle shows a definite preference for the 466 over the 467 boolit. I didn't encounter much in the way of tipping or yawing indications, which were quite evident with 467 and H4831 powder in earlier testing.

I'm glad I tried 5744. It's certainly not an obvious candidate for gas-operated rifles, but it surely works well in this one! Next, I'll try a couple other bullet designs in the same weight range with 5744 and see what jumps out of the bushes. Note that the first-round flyer idiosyncracy was almost non-existent, too.

I love going to the range with an experimental purpose in mind!

[BruceB]

Sorry for omitting this, because I really appreciate all consultations.

The first-round flyer has been bothersome in quite a few loads. Somewhere back in this long thread, I related how I tried just such an experiment as you gents are recommending. I used only a single round in the magazine, and manually chambered that round for firing....repeated ten times, so that each round was equivalent to a first round from a full magazine.

Nothing earthshaking was evident in the results.

I REALLY want to have a load that puts the first one (the IMPORTANT one!) right in the middle of where the following boolits will land. A couple of times today, I had the first three or four bullets literally cutting into the same large-ish hole, and that was sure sweet to see. It makes me think that perhaps I do not have a bedding problem or other such woes.

Man alive, I can hardly wait to get back out with another bunch of test ammo.....not before Sunday, unfortunately, or even Monday if my weary butt is dragging too badly after night shift on Sunday morning.

[BruceB]

Having recently achieved some limited success with 5744 in the M1A, I turned to some different boolit designs with the same powder. The ones fired today were 311291 (170 RN) 311413 (170 spirepoint) 311672 (167 semi-pointed, small flat meplat) and SAECO #305 (180 flatpoint...much liike 311041). All were water-dropped WW sized .311, with Felix lube and Hornady gaschecks.

All the above designs were loaded in batches of ten rounds, with charges of 23, 24, 25 and 26 grains of XMP 5744. Some of these were so bad that I didn't finish shooting all the increments. If I don't report the "group" for any combo, rest assured that you do NOT want to know!

311413:

23.0 5744: 1890 av, 48 es, 15 sd

24.0 5744: 1951 av, 45 es, 14 sd

25.0 5744: 2018 av, 49 es, 17 sd

26.0 5744: 2113 av, 79 es, 25 sd


311291:

23.0 5744: 1903 av, 48 es, 15 sd

24.0 5744: 1966 av, 43 es, 18 sd

DNF 25.0 and 26.0 loads....it was that bad!


311672:

23.0 5744: 1910 av, 32 es, 9 sd

24.0 5744: 1944 av, 20 es, 9 sd

DNF 25.0 and 26.0 loads....


SAECO #305

.... Thank Heaven SOMETHING worked today; I wuz getting bummed-out:

23.0 5744: 1905 av, 51 es, 14 sd, 1.2"/10rds/50yards, and 8 rounds in 1.0"

24.0 5744: 1969 av, 45 es, 14 sd, 0.8"/8/50 with two rounds called out (dang it).

25.0 5744: 2042 av, 36 es, 10 sd, 1.6"/10/50. Not impressive, but good compared to some of the earler "groups" today!

26.0 5744: 2109 av, 42 es, 13 sd....scattered group of about 2.5".

The rifle worked perfectly...yeah, I know it's boring but I still enjoy saying it.

Went out very early to avoid the 100-plus heat forecast for later on. After stopping for gas, drinkables, and ice for rifle barrels and drinks, I fired the first round about 0730.

Right now it appears that SAECO #305 and 311466 willl get more attention with 5744. The others? They'll keep until I exhaust my present plans for 5744, and then I think maybe I might cautiously try Re-7. We'll see.

[BruceB]

Went shooting this morning, starting at about 0715 to beat the worst of the heat.

130 rounds of 7.62 NATO were fired, but I have to confess that I am AMAZED at the make-up of those cartridges, or at least, the fact that they functioned in an autoloading battle rifle.

If someone had told me, before I started tilting at this particular windmill, that powders I normally consider to be mostly PISTOL powders would work rather well in my M1A, I likely would have laughed at the idea. Not now!

As mentioned in my last post, I did select some loads for REloder-7 for trials. Then, taking a hard look at several burning-rate charts and some personal back records as well, I decided to try a series with IMR 4227, too.

With Lyman's latest Handbook (not the CB handbook) to guide me on RE-7, I had no worries at all as to load levels. My stair-step series ended five grains below Lyman's max load with 311466. 4227 needed considerably more thought, and where I was comfy with 2-grain steps with RE-7, I took the precaution of using one-grain increments with 4227 in deference to its rather more "sudden" personality.

I seem to be having considerable success forecasting starting and ending points for my loads in this rifle. Today's powders were just at the ragged edge of functioning the rifle with the starting loads, and at the upper end of the series they were right at the point I'd say "enough". I'm no hot-rodder, and the pressures were certainly getting brisk in the CHAMBER...not at the gasport.

Note that when chamber pressures are up into normal working ranges for the cartridge, but gasport pressures are still low, we have a pretty neat combination. This is because the powder is burning well in its normal range, and yet the action is NOT being "over-driven", with such things as bent rims from extraction or burred rims from hard ejections, or excessively-hard bolt impacts with the back of the receiver, etc.

Nothing much jumped out in the accuracy department, but it does seem that 311466 is happier in this application than SAECO 305. With the quicker powders, 466 also continued to group (sort of) at higher speeds than it has with slower fuels.

So: LC88 brass, CCI #34 primers.

311466, water-dropped ww alloy, .311", Felix lube:


Reloder-7:

24.0 grains: 1856 average, 22 extreme spread, 9 std deviation, 1.8"/10 rds/50yds
The rifle functioned well with this load and all other RE-7 loads

26.0 grains: 2083 av, 38 es, 12 sd, 2.0"/10/50.....six rounds in a very tight cluster

28.0 grains: 2174 av, 60 es, 18 sd, 2.5"/10/50...some boolits showing some tipping

30.0 grains: 2288 av, 60 es, 17 sd, 3.2"/10/50...clearly past 466's "happy zone" and pressures were getting up there. Primers still weren't as flat as in my Matchking loads, though.


311466, IMR 4227

22.0 grains: 1934 av, 26 es, 7 sd, 1.9"/10/50. Rifle ejecting but NOT feeding.

23.0 grains: 1983 av, 48 es, 14 sd, 2.0"/10/50, rifle feeding most rounds but short-stroking about 3 times. Locked open on last round.

24.0 grains: 2052 av, 45 es, 14 sd, 1.5"/10/50, perfect function.

25.0 grains: 2100 av, 46 es, 11 sd, 1.4"/10/50

26.0 grains: 2176 av, 35 es, 10 sd, 3.2"/10/50, 1st-round flyer. Again, 466 moves out of the preferred speed range.


SAECO #305, same specs as 311466 above.

RE-7 LOADS:

24.0 grains: 1949 av, 27 es, 8 sd, 1.8:/10/50. Rifle functioning slowly but reliably.

26.0 grains: 2031 av, 82 es, 28 sd, 1.9"/10/50

28.0 grains: 2143 av, 43 es, 14 sd, 2.5"/10/50

30.0 grains: 2222 av, 26 es, 9 sd, very poor group, scattered to 3.5" and the first round 3" above anything else.

There were some interesting clusters in a few groups, which warrant some attention and re-trying..

Also, it so happens that when testing some RE-7 loads in my .303 #4, the mere addition of a tiny bit of dacron took the group from FOUR INCHES at 50 yards to barely an inch, with no other changes. I think I'll re-fire the RE-7 series using dacron the next time. Might's well do the same with 4227, too, as long as I'm at it.

[BruceB]

Hied meself forth in the early sunlight this morning, armed with 150 rounds of 7.62 which ALL contained a bit of dacron.

Not much appeared to result from the inclusion of the fuzzy stuff. One puzzling thing was that the same 4227 loads which functioned the rifle just fine a day or so back, now refused to feed reliably with loads which were identical except for the dacron. By this, I mean that on many rounds, the bolt closed on the empty chamber, having failed to come back far enough to pick up the next round. It was sorta like "ball and dummy" training, and I was happy to see that my trigger control was pretty good and the sights did not move when the big "click" happened...

I took along loads with 311466 ( the 150 Loverin), 311467 (170 Loverin), SAECO #305 (170 RN flat-tip), a couple recipes with 311672 and 4227, and even five rounds with 311299 loaded over 4227, and sized at .314".

Within this 150 rounds was a trial run using .3095" sizing instead of the .311+ I've used since Day One. Compared with two otherwise-identical .311" loads with RE-7, the .3095 boolits did not display any difference in performance or grouping. All the RE-7 loads did function normally, incidentally, unlike the 4227 loads.

Today I was seeing the sights VERY well, in comparison to some other sessions lately. I just wish I knew why, so I could duplicate the condition! This eagle-eyeball did not help most of the groups, but I did isolate a couple of loads for further work. The addition of two grains of powder (26.0 RE-7 vs 28.0 grains) turned the target results from a one-inch group of ten 311467s into a four-inch sprawl.

Naturally, I'll be going back to try more loads with this combo, around the 23-to-27-grain levels.

The rifle has now fired about 3000 rounds, and apart from about 400 168 Matchkings (for break-in, although I do NOT follow the shoot-one-clean-shoot-one-clean etc etc rigamarole) all have been cast boolits. The bore has been cleaned exactly once, after the jacketed loads were fired. I've cleaned the chamber a few times but left the bore untouched, as it was brilliantly shiny every time I checked. It may be time to clean it and re-visit the jacketed (Matchking) loads again, just to see how current results compare to the early trials. Since the first-round flyers were evident a few times today, I'll be interested to see if the service-level 168 Matchkings (around 2600 fps) also display this phenomenon.

I'm instructing at work tomorrow, but Tuesday should find me looking for more answers at the range. My 8-day "weekend" got neatly bisected by this one day as teacher!

[BruceB]

As mentioned in the last installment, I loaded fifty rounds with the 170-grain 311467 and RE-7, in loads running through 22.0 grains (with and without dacron), 23.0 (with and without dacron) and 24.0 grains without dacron.

Not much in the way of accuracy was achieved, and the 24.0 load sans dacron was AWFUL.

Intending to do a jacketed-bullet test, I'd loaded a couple of hundred Matchkings the night before, as well. Being both (a) lazy and (b) curious, I decided to just go ahead and fire the condom loads without cleaning the rifle's bore. Turns out that it didn't matter. Three consecutive 10-round groups all went just under 0.80 inches from 50 yards. The only possible indication that cast-boolit fouling MIGHT have had some limited effect was that the first string showed a slightly higher extreme spread in speed than did the second and third strings:

Sierra 168 Matchking, 41.0 H4895:

String #1: 2630 average, 72 extreme spread, 19 std deviation

#2: 2650 av, 64 es, 19 sd

#3: 2644 av, 22 es, 6 sd.

311467:

22.0 RE-7, NO dacron: 1718 av, 91 es, 32 sd...1st round 4" high, 2nd round 2" low from center of the loose "group" of eight.

22.0 RE-7 WITH dacron: 1783 av, 51 es, 17 sd

23.0 RE-7, NO dacron: 1786 av, 43 es, 16 sd.

23.0 RE-7 WITH dacron: 1852 av, 31 es, 9 sd. This grouped worse than the no-dacron 23.0 load.

24.0 RE-7, NO dacron: 1848 av, 33 es, 10 sd, and this one was the worst of all.

All in all, not much of a red-letter day for my cast loads.

This day's shooting pretty well rules out any flaw in the rifle itself, as far as those first-round flyers are concerned. The first two jacketed bullets literally cut the same hole, and the following eight rounds just enlarged it. Chambering of the first round was accomplished exactly the same way as I do with the cast loads. I had a refreshing change from all the 50-yard shooting I've been doing, and gave myself and the rifle a workout on rocks and bunchgrass out to around 300 yards or so. This served both of us well, reminding us that a good rifle can reach waaaaay out there with considerable confidence. Fun!

SOMETHING is going on here that I have yet to identify. The search continues.

[brian]

BruceB,
Thanks for this report. I'll be getting an M1A (finally) and am very interested in light loads and CBs. Can you comment further on the condition of the gas tube and piston. I'm curious if you're getting any lead plating in the tube or on the piston. My M1A will be used. It isn't a "loaded" one but just the standard plane jane version. However it doesn't have a GI barrel (4 groove 1-12 twist, chrome lined) but has a regular non chromed CM barrel, but at 1-11.25" twist. Any thoughts?
Have you considered trying either the Lee C312-155-2R or the RCBS 30-165-SIL in the 308? I'd like to find a CB load that does several things besides group well.
a. function the action reliably but softly.
b. when seated to load in magazine and not jam into lands, has bullet base wholly in neck (though at the bottom I'd guess) and yet doesn't have exposed lube grooves to pick up lint, dirt, etc.
c. Have enough MV to make hitting at 100 to 200 yards reasonable with out major elevation changes.
d. non leading of course.
e. reliable magazine feeding.

So thanks for the data so far. It'll be a couple of weeks before I can get mine. In the meantime if you find a miracle load, please let me know.
Thanks,
Brian
Arizona.

[robertbank]

I have died and gone to heaven - damn I love this site!

Take Care

Bob

[robertbank]

BruceB - been working on my loads for my M 14. Trying to get WC735 to work. (About 10% faster than H335). Been getting high ES with SD in the low 20's. What has been you rexperience with H335 beyond what you have reported here. I am kind of stuck with 311291 and 311041 boolits for this gun and have yet to try the 311041 boolits. I may be wrong but this surplus powder seems to do better in the 30-30 and smaller cases. Thoughts?

Take Care

Bob

ps We have had temperatures in th elow 30's at the range this past week. Kind of one week of Nevada year round.:mrgreen: Gotta find a place down there in the low rent district to sit out the winters.

[rigmarol]

Bruce,
Thanks for pointing me here from the handloaders forum this morning. I've read your "Journal of Discovery" and it reads quite nicely. You've done a fine job of documentation. I've had my M1A for over 2 weeks now and it's driving me nuts not to shoot it! The heat here in California has been way up there so the range even early in the morning is just too hot.

Thanks again for the info.

[quasi]

BruceB, thankyou for all of this research, it is very valuble. I believe you are using Lake City brass. Can you make a few comments on your case life, resizing methods (ie; full length, partial, neck, small base ) , loading methods etc.

It is nice to see you using 10 shot groups.

[BruceB]

Qasi, you raise a very important point, and one which I don't believe was really addressed in the course of this trek with the M1A.

I believe it is CRITICALLY important in M1/M1A rifles from the safety standpoint, that all cases are full-length sized. All other concerns (such as accuracy) are decidedly secondary to the proper sizing of brass for these rifles.

The reason lies in the design of the firing mechanisms. The firing pins in both rifles are of free-floating design, meaning they are unrestrained by springs or any other mechanical means. A glance at a round which has been chambered semi-automatically, but NOT fired, will show a dimple in the unfired primer. The dimple is caused by the firing pin exerting its inertia on the primer after forward motion of the bolt has ended.

Failure of partly-resized cases to chamber FREELY can lead to firing pin impacts with the case partly OUTSIDE the chamber and with the bolt unlocked. There have been enough partly-open-bolt slamfires in the rifle type to warrant serious concern in this matter. They are generally disastrous.

One more safety concern: due to the above condition of the firing pin impacting the primers, single loading can INCREASE the risk. If a single round is chambered by hand, and then the bolt is allowed to slam forward from its rear-most locked-open position, the bolt is traveling FASTER than it does in semi-auto firing. The effort expended in stripping a round from magazine or clip slows the bolt's speed considerably, and thus decreases the force of the firing pin's impact on the primer. SO, when single-loading an M1/M1A, allow the bolt to move forward under hand control to about half-way along its travel, and then release it. There will still be ample energy to lock the action closed on the round, and the possibility of a slam-fire is greatly reduced.

My primers for M1A/M1 are CCI#34, a magnum-strength 'military' primer. I have no plans to change. However, I used standard CCI#200s in my M1s, M1As, and M-14s in Canada for years, without difficulty. I would NOT consider using any pistol primer in these rifles, preferring to remain on the safe side.

So, to your question about my sizing routine: My "normal" routine right now calls for full-length sizing in an RCBS small-base .308 die. However, loading under some time pressure before the Nevada Cast Bullet Shoot last month, I managed to tear the rim off a case in my small-base die. Due to lack of time, I simply substituted my standard .308 sizer (non-small-base) and continued the run. No problems resulted, which was expected since I'd loaded thousands of rounds for earlier M-14s in Canada with the same die. Do I recommend the small-base die? YES, just for a bit more certainty and peace of mind.

A change is in the works, though. I now have an RCBS X-die (available in small-base configuration), which limits case-length growth to a very large degree. (Search for Larry Gibson's wonderful discussion of this die for M1A ammo.) The use of the X-die has been delayed while I rebuild the vertical column of my Unimat, to get enough clearance for an also-new Forster drill-press-mounted case trimmer. I want NOTHING to do with hand-trimming a thousand 7.62 cases!

Yep, my brass WAS unfired LC 7.62 NATO from GI Brass, but it sure's heck isn't "unfired" now! Cast-bullet pressures are apparently so low and so easy on the brass, that I have yet to discard even ONE case due to "wearing it out".

I use an L.E. Wilson .308 case gauge to check every single loaded round. I view this as an essential safety check for any semi-auto ammo I load, in any caliber. If a round fails to "chamber" easily in the gauge, I FIND OUT WHY....usually it's just a burr on the case rim from ejection or extraction, and the burr is easily removed with a needle file. However, if the round still doesn't enter the gauge freely, I turf it. No messing around, just get rid of it.

The gauge offers an easy way both to set the sizing die (size until the case seats flush with the rear face of the gauge) and also to check case length, because ANY protrusion of the case mouth beyond the front of the gauge indicates an over-length case. I have not had that problem yet, with at least three or four firings of all my brass with cast-bullet loads.

GET THE GAUGE, AND USE IT RELIGIOUSLY!!!!! It's about the best $20 we can spend, for insurance and confidence value.

I trust this answers your questions. Thanks for raising the subject, because it needed some airing.

[robertbank]

Your last post here probably saved me a "surprise" I didn't need. Someone once said "ignorance is bliss" - he wasn't a reloader!

Thanks again for this and your earlier comments this morning.

Take Care

Bob

[quasi]

this thread needs to be "stickyed"

[45nut]

this thread needs to be "stickyed"

Agreed,,and done.

[quasi]

thankyou 45 nut. This is the best shooting based forum on the internet, in my opinion. There is quality discussion, instruction, experimentation, and story-telling without the sniping and imaturity most other forums have.

[fatelvis]

Is it just a coincidence that the best shooting bullet here was a 311466, and there is now a Group Buy open, for the same? Hmmmmm....... I'm in!

[4t5]

OK. I received my 311466 mold and done casted me up some boolits. I saw in another thread where you used 2.620 as the OAL. I scientifically confirmed that this will work in my rifle using my Stony Point gizmo. At the 2.620 OAL, there are 2 lube grooves exposed beyond the case mouth. I am new at this and am not sure if I supposed to lube all of the grooves or just the ones inside the case neck. It seems to me that if sand got stuck to the exposed lube, it could cause damage to the bore. Also, it sure looks to me like the gas check and possibly the first lube groove are below the case neck. Are there any issues with this?

[miestro_jerry]

I have some reservations about shooting lead thru an M1A. I went thru boot camp with the M-14 and had to keep it really clean, but not as clean as my M-16. I have shoot many M1A and similar rifles since then, currently I own three M1As and a Fulton M14. One of my M1A is a ultra Match setup to shoot like the M21 that I shoot in the Army many years ago.

Lead in the gas operating system and the infamous dirty spindle valve is my biggest concern. I normally shoot Sierra 169gr BTHP in Lapua brass, the load is really a simple one: 43.7gr of IMR 4895.

As that my eye sight requires bifocal correction these days, I can only shoot ground hogs at about 300 yards, back when I was young, I could do 600 yards. Of course, I went off to the war with a M16.

Jerry

[BruceB]

jerry;

Have you actually READ this entire thread?

Did you see where my M1A ran for hundreds upon hundreds of rounds WITHOUT "lead fouling" in gas system or barrel?

The rifle works just fine with cast bullets.

[fatelvis]

I'm in the process of loading up some of Bruce's 24.0/5744 loads, (using our GB mould), and trying them in a nice clean barrel. My M1A wears a Douglas heavy match barrel, has a trigger job with a nice 4lb. 2 stage trigger, is bedded, fitted match sights, and outstandingly accurate with 168 Sierras. Now that ARs have shown to posess an edge in Highpower, I dont use it any more to compete. Hopefully I get close to the grouping he was getting! It will be interesting (to me) to see how cast bullets shoot out of a full blown target rifle. I'll let you guys know how it goes.

[fatelvis]

I seat both 311466 and 311467 to the same overall length, as they have identical nose shapes. I discovered yesterday that the length I've been using is TOO LONG to allow loaded rounds to be extracted from the chamber....they leave the boolits jammed in the throat!
Bruce, I'm in the process of loading up some 311466s for shooting out of my M1A, and was wondering what actual OAL you were loading your rounds to. Were any of the lube grooves showing? Thanks-

[0802]

Bruce -- I've followed this thread with interest for quite some time. So, after all the great testing and evaluation, what's your preferred load? I've looked over it several times and didn't find your "conclusion." Maybe I can't see the forest for the trees.

Also, can you post pictures or provide some details on your drill press mounted Forster case trimmer that you mention in the post? I'd like to try to rigger up something similar.

Thanks,
Josh

[BruceB]

I've been quite delinquent in pursuing the M1A/cast bullet project, but the problem has been mostly due to medical troubles. However...

The RCBS X-die is a recent addition to my tooling, and I strongly urge its use for the M1A. Check by searching for Larry Gibson's excellent and extensive test of the X-die. His findings are that brass life can be FIVE TIMES greater than conventional sizers will yield.

My first batch of rounds loaded with the X-die has now been test-fired, but the utility of the new die lies in its subsequent loads and the increased case life. I've now got upwards of 1000 cases trimmed to uniform length and ready for extended use with the new sizing system.

Yesterday I fired about forty rounds through the M1A, plinking rocks and clods at 200-plus yards. The load was the Loverin 311466 at 152 grains, with a charge of 25 grains of 5744 and NO filler. Primer (as usual) was the CCI #34. Functioning was 100%, and point of impact was amply consistent for my purposes....meaning that if I held-and-squeezed consistently, it was VERY rough on rocks at that range (iron sights). It was very satisfying, and I'm gonna have to make some proper large-ish targets to give the loads a better workout at longer range.

All the load-development work is fascinating, but DANG, it was pure enjoyment to have a gorgeous day and targets of opportunity to shoot. Occasionally it's necessary to have a low-key FUN outing...I think I may just try out the M1A with cast loads on a major sage-rat safari around mid-month. I won't hit too many, I'm sure, but for the close-in ones that don't really offer much challenge to a 20X scope and .220 Swift, well....

More experimental loads for this rifle should be appearing on this thread soon. Again, the more I shoot this rifle, the better I like it!

This was also a test of two brand-new 20-round magazines. These were made by Checkmate Industries, who is the current supplier of M14 magazines to the US Government. These are available from www.44mag.com for a measly $25.00 each, and they are superb magazines. They're in a back-order status right now, but I back-ordered mine on February 21 and received them around March 15. They don't charge one's credit card until the product is shipped. Highly recommended!

[Deano]

After years of trying to find a good shooting cast load for the M1A I recently tried SR4759. I have quite a lot of this powder and it's my propellent of choice for bolt rifles but for some reason I never tried it in the gas gun. I wish I had sooner.

23.0 grains under Lyman's 311672 OAL 2.680 proved so good I've stopped looking for a better load. My rifle wears a GI chrome lined tube and has never been fabulously accurate but the above load easily matches the better lots of surplus ball. The pic attached was fired prone slow at 200 yards in a blustery rain.

ETA this load runs 1980 FPS with an ES of 50 and SD around 17.

[pbbutz]

Very nice!, you've just made my day.:drinks:

[Deano]

I knew it was too good to be true. I fired this load offhand for the first time today and it was just a little too soft, failing to lock the bolt all the way back about half the time. It's never failed from the supported positions when the rifle has my mass to recoil against. I'm going to increase the charge by half a grain and hope accuracy holds.

[felix]

If accuracy does not hold, choose another powder speed. A different lot of the same speed might hold. The standard load for the gun should hold accuracy with a minimum of 1 percent powder swing. ... felix

[Larry Gibson]

Deano

If that bullet is riding the bore well, and it appears it is, then another 1/2 to 1 gr should work ok. Your GI barrel has a 12" twist so your still within the RPM threshold. What alloy and what weight are your bullets fully dressed?

Larry Gibson

[big boar]

Just asking, isn't 4831 sort of on the slow side? I don't mean as far as bullet performance but will the peak pressure, occuring later up the bore, not cause damage to the rifle? I don't know for sure, just asking the question.

[Deano]

Deano

If that bullet is riding the bore well, and it appears it is, then another 1/2 to 1 gr should work ok. Your GI barrel has a 12" twist so your still within the RPM threshold. What alloy and what weight are your bullets fully dressed?

Larry Gibson

My "alloy" is whatever I dig out of the berm at the range. I quench out of the mold but they run soft. My mold throws bullets that measure .3095 on the base and .305 in front of the first band. I fill the grooves with carnuba red and after loading dip the exposed lead in Lee's liquid alox. I'm embarrassed to admit I've not weighed one.

[Deano]

If accuracy does not hold, choose another powder speed. A different lot of the same speed might hold. The standard load for the gun should hold accuracy with a minimum of 1 percent powder swing. ... felix


Could you elaborate on that?

[felix]

For example: Load 10 rounds at 50 grains measured exacly; 49.5 grains exactly, 50.5 grains exactly. Take 5 of each and shoot each into a group. Measure group size and ES of each. Get an average of the composite as if one 15 shot group. Shoot the remaining 15 rounds at random into 3 groups, 5 shots each. Do the same with these 3 groups, making into one single 15 shot group. Compare the two 15 shot groups. They should be the same. If they are not, then the derivative of pressure curve is not flat enough. ... felix

[Deano]

OK, that makes sense.

I'll increase the charge and let you know what happens.

[BruceB]

The M1A rifle shot extremely well for me this past Sunday at the Nevada Cast Bullet Shoot. I managed five hits for five rounds at a 14"x16" steel plate at 415 yards, with the issue sights, from sitting position. These were the rounds fired for official score. I also hit four-for-five on an earlier practice run. Good load, right?

Yeah, BUT.....

Twice now, I've deepened the seating depth of the 311466 bullet in an effort to get away from early contact with the lands. On Sunday, I had occasion to extract a loaded cartridge from the M1A, and AGAIN the bullet was left behind in the throat. Since I intensely desire an utterly free chambering of the incoming round (no contact with the leade to slow the round when entering) I'm regretfully going to set aside the 311466 for a while at least, and see if some other candidates might work better in this particular regard.

Among other designs on hand, my prime alternatives would seem to be Lyman's 311672 and the two SAECO designs, #305 and #311. Since I love shooting this rifle so much, and it responds so nicely to ammo it likes, I see further experiments as an enjoyable excursion, rather than drudgery or anything like it.

That Sunday load.....I STILL have difficulty believing my rifle functions with such loads, let alone while delivering accuracy sufficient to shoot "with the Big Dogs"....some very fine rifle shooters come to the Nevada Shoot each year. I was shooting the water-dropped wheelweight 311466, with Gator checks, LAR 45's BAC lube and sized .311". Primer was CCI#34 and the charge was 25.0 grains of AA5744!!! YES, 5744, no filler, perfect function and over 1900 fps. Let me tell you, it was sublime. If the front sight was anywhere near that itty-bitty plate when the hammer fell, I KNEW it was a hit. Man, talk about a feeling of confidence, 'specially with a dozen or so friends hanging over my shoulder with binocs, spotting scopes, suggestions and "suitable comments" the whole time.

What a helpful bunch they are, yep, sure, sho' 'nuff.....

[BruceB]

Just asking, isn't 4831 sort of on the slow side? I don't mean as far as bullet performance but will the peak pressure, occuring later up the bore, not cause damage to the rifle? I don't know for sure, just asking the question.



Big Boar, pard;

The "secret" to using the slower powders in the M1A/M1 Garand (there's really no 'secret') is simply to concentrate on the gas-port pressure and let chamber pressure find its own level. With the reduced charges we use with cast bullets, we KNOW that chamber pressures will be safe.

Also, since cast-bullet behavior in the barrel is very different from that of jacketed bullets, we can safely use loads (specifically REDUCED loads) which might be risky with jacketed bullets.

In the M1A I've used safe charges of powders from as fast as XMP 5744 to as slow as OLD (WW II) H4831, with many other powders between those burning rates also giving excellent accuracy and perfect function.

BY starting low (where have we heard THAT before???) and working up just to where functioning becomes flawless, we will stay within safe pressure levels for both the action and the working parts of the rifle....thinking here particularly of the operating rods of the M1 and M1A.

There's quite a bit of data here at this forum (CB Loads/Military Rifles) and on Cast Boolits in general. Do some searching. ask questions, and enjoy.

[45-70bpcr]

Bruce and contributors

Really appreciate you documenting your experience with the M1a and cast bullets. I have read the entire thread. I played around some time ago after reading it and came up with a load that my gun (late 80's built Springfield NM in a McMillan stock) seems to like. This past weekend was the National Cast Bullet Silhouette championship at ridgway rifle club in ridgway PA. Really the highlight of my shooting year. Any how besides the regular 60 round match (used my 03a3 sporter with 311299 and 4350) shot with 15 shots each at the 200 meter chicken, 300 meter pig, 385 meter turkey and 500 meter rams they have 10 shot side matches for lever guns, pumps and military. For grins I loaded 75 rounds with my load of 31.0 Varget with the 311299, Fed 210, LBT blue lube and took it along. Everyone that knew M1 and M1a's told me I should not shoot cast bullets in a gas gun because it will foul up the sytem. I already knew better from your experience and the couple hundred rounds I had shot working up my load. Anyhow long story short the gun feeds and functions perfectly. Off the rest it was deadly on the 300 meter pigs. When I got into my sitting position to shoot the 10 round match I went 5 for 10 on the pigs. I had some wind to deal with and could not for the life of me read the direction of the sight knob to make my adjustment or feel I could have done better. Once I cornered one of my older buddies that has shot a M1a for decades (never with cast bullets) he got me straight on my sight adjustment. I fired the match single shot but still had 7 rounds left over. They were loaded mag. length so I shoved them all in sat down again and went 4 for 7 on the pigs. Really convinced me and the non believers. Anyhow I probably never would have tried it if it hadn't been for you guys sharing so thank you and the list very much for taking the time . Can't wait to play with it some more. I hope to shoot it at some of our local 200 yd. and 100 yd. High Power matches.

I'll share my results when I do.

[robertbank]

Great to hear. What load have you developed using 4350 with the 311299 boolit?

Take Care

Bob

[45-70bpcr]

Great to hear. What load have you developed using 4350 with the 311299 boolit?

Take Care

Bob

Hi Bob,

My stories kind of ran together there but the 4350 I shot was in my 03a3 for the regular 60 round match, not in my M1a. Sorry if it sounded like I used it in the M1a. I should not have included that in this thread. But if you are curious about that I shot (in my 03a3 30-06) 37.0 4350 with the 311299 sized .310 with LBT blue, Fed. 210's with a seated lenght of 3.340". I never clocked it so not sure but I think in the 1850 range. It shot great. I have since read here that 4350 is ok in the M1a with the charges normally used for cast bullets. I may try that also since I hope to ration my Varget that is pretty hard to find right now.

[Bull Shoals]

well we have a contribution to the thread.

Went to the range today using data posted here w/H335 as a starting point. Specifically, First try was 5 rounds w/29.5 grains and a NEI 30-150 mold that we have had for maybe 25 years. Could not make it group at the time I bought it, but it is in my brothers stash.

Similar to a 31141, just shorter w/a smaller meplat. Sized .309 and nose measures .299 so it should not (did not in the previous life) work.

The rifle is a Century Arms 09xx w/ChiCom parts, and a Federal Ordinance receiver. Barrel is Chicom chrome lined that will close on all 308 gages, but not on a 7.62 NATO field. Un itized, trigger job, GI fiberglass stock, NM sights. Magazine was not GI, but is reliable.

Load is 29.5 gr H335, WLR primers, R-P brass w/maybe 2 reloads, no idea what the lube was as the boolits are maybe 25 years old straight air cooled wheel weights. OAL 2.63 and all shots were from the magazine loaded w/10 rounds.

Feeds w/out a bobble. good extraction. Primers look good. Fireing was slow so as not to heat up the toy.

Now for the coup de gras. Best 10 shot group at 50 yds, less 2 called flyers,
was .770 x .883 from a bench w/the NM sights. Now for all you you younger folks w/good eyes, I was 70 on 7/3/2009, so I get to do some serious bragging. Pics will be posted tomorrow or Monday as the brothers computer wont take my chip.

:o)

Tried 29 gr, 29.5 gr and 30 gr H335. We will work on tightening up the group a little w/different lubes and I may even go so far as to slug the bore and see if a larger size to works well.

I have used teflon tape w/good results in the past and will also try liquid alox.

Bad news is I have no idea if the mold is still available.

Tried 311466 and 311041 w/no success.

Methinks I have found the load for my M14s. Makes for cheap shooting and saving the milspec loads for repelling borders and the like. Actually this load groups about the same as my jacketed load of 43 gr H4895, R-P cases, WLR primers and Hornady FMJBT 150 gr bullets which is a pretty consistant 2 minute load.

Eat your hearts out lads.

Seabreeze133

Don

[seabreeze133]

Attached is the target from the quoted post. Have not chronographed the load as work gets in the way. Bad news is I would like to shoot USPSA matchs and w/this 150 gr bullet I need a velocity of 2400 fps to make the required power factor of 360. Dont think I can make it w/this bullet/powder combination. Good news is the only local matches will allow an old guy some slack....unless/until the scores are really good.:o)

I have a 31141 (old) lyman mold that will run about 180 gr sized and w/gas check, but to avoid bullet contact w/the rifling (do NOT want that) I will have to seat it really deep. Any suggestions on either 2400 fps for the 150, or a 180 gr bullet? BTW the 31141 was seated to feed in the magazine and still made contact w/rifling.

Well I am not having sucess w/attaching the pic. Any suggestions?

DB



well we have a contribution to the thread.

Went to the range today using data posted here w/H335 as a starting point. Specifically, First try was 5 rounds w/29.5 grains and a NEI 30-150 mold that we have had for maybe 25 years. Could not make it group at the time I bought it, but it is in my brothers stash.

Similar to a 31141, just shorter w/a smaller meplat. Sized .309 and nose measures .299 so it should not (did not in the previous life) work.

The rifle is a Century Arms 09xx w/ChiCom parts, and a Federal Ordinance receiver. Barrel is Chicom chrome lined that will close on all 308 gages, but not on a 7.62 NATO field. Un itized, trigger job, GI fiberglass stock, NM sights. Magazine was not GI, but is reliable.

Load is 29.5 gr H335, WLR primers, R-P brass w/maybe 2 reloads, no idea what the lube was as the boolits are maybe 25 years old straight air cooled wheel weights. OAL 2.63 and all shots were from the magazine loaded w/10 rounds.

Feeds w/out a bobble. good extraction. Primers look good. Fireing was slow so as not to heat up the toy.

Now for the coup de gras. Best 10 shot group at 50 yds, less 2 called flyers,
was .770 x .883 from a bench w/the NM sights. Now for all you you younger folks w/good eyes, I was 70 on 7/3/2009, so I get to do some serious bragging. Pics will be posted tomorrow or Monday as the brothers computer wont take my chip.

:o)

Tried 29 gr, 29.5 gr and 30 gr H335. We will work on tightening up the group a little w/different lubes and I may even go so far as to slug the bore and see if a larger size to works well.

I have used teflon tape w/good results in the past and will also try liquid alox.

Bad news is I have no idea if the mold is still available.

Tried 311466 and 311041 w/no success.

Methinks I have found the load for my M14s. Makes for cheap shooting and saving the milspec loads for repelling borders and the like. Actually this load groups about the same as my jacketed load of 43 gr H4895, R-P cases, WLR primers and Hornady FMJBT 150 gr bullets which is a pretty consistant 2 minute load.

Eat your hearts out lads.

Seabreeze133

Don

[seabreeze133]

Well lets see if this works.

URL = photobucket.com/DB2

DB

[rvpilot76]

No dice there, seabreeze133.

[seabreeze133]

Well that's a bummer that the connect does not work. I'll see if I can find a way to post the pics. maybe there is a sticky that will help.

Have not taken the time to experiment w/the H335 and cast load as for the time being I am happy. Shot a bunch of the load couple weeks ago offhand for fun. Love the load, it functions the m14 well and is easy on brass. No Chrono so don't know what velocity in my rifle but suspect in the range of 1800 fps.

Been playing w/a new DPMS sportical for repelling borders, dealing w/zombies, etc. It's definitely not going to be a cast rifle as it needs high pressure loads and so far loves 168 SMK/41.5 gr H4895/LCM brass and WLR primers. Hard on brass and worse than the M14. Bad news is the factory magazines are a challenge at best, but CProducts mags are great out of the box.

Thanks to Buce for the direction as I had not even considered cast in the M14 and his work saved me a LOT of time and $$$.

Don

[rvpilot76]

Highlight the IMG code on photobucket and right click the code and copy it. You should be able to paste it directly here. Give her a try, we'll help you out seabreeze.

[seabreeze133]

Lets see if this works. The bottom 2 are the called flyers.

Don

[seabreeze133]

That was so much fun, think I will do some more.

[rvpilot76]

You got 'er!

[tejano]

Like one of the other guys on this string, I tried out 30.0 gr. of Varget and Lyman 311299 in my M1A today @ 100yards and was encouraged enough to want try it again. The target was not good enough to post, but I think I will do better the next time out. Also, this same load did very well in Kimber M84 Longmaster. My best group was 1 ragged hole of 6 shots. After I let it cool for about 15 minutes the next 3 shots were 1.5" so I decided it was time to quit.

[overbore]

Has anyone gotten either a Varget or H-4895 load to shoot M.O.M. ( minute of man) at 100yards? I have the brass, powder, M1A rifle and 311291 mold , old NEI. Any hope?

many thanks great info share troops.
Laus Deo
overbore

[BruceB]

"Minute of man".....what's that, maybe 6" at 100 yards??

I think I'm on pretty safe ground in saying that it should be rather easy to find a load which meets that standard. My M1A has fired groups a good bit smaller than that with more than one powder.

Having never used Varget in the rifle, as near as I can recall, it certainly shouldn't be hard to get M.O.M. with H4895.

311291 functions fine in my rifle, and should be alright in the accuracy department. Don't be shy about trying a slower-burning powder, either....4350 or IMR4831 will also do well. Start about 37 grains with either of these powders and 311291.

[overbore]

My criteria is about 3" for mom.

Anyone have and op rod bending problems with powder slower than 4895? The real pros with the M1A have warned about using powder slower that the specific powder the weapon was designed for. I did bend the M1 op rod with 4831 and 180gr-- but it took about 1,000 rounds.

Cordially, overbore

[Larry Gibson]

My criteria is about 3" for mom.

Anyone have and op rod bending problems with powder slower than 4895? The real pros with the M1A have warned about using powder slower that the specific powder the weapon was designed for. I did bend the M1 op rod with 4831 and 180gr-- but it took about 1,000 rounds.

Cordially, overbore

If the "real pros" were really pros then they would know the gas system of the M1A is quite different from the M1's. The instance you cite was the common problem with M1s; cheap 4831 and surplus 173 gr jacketed bullets or the use of 180 gr commercial bullets. The "pros" should realize the M1A has a gas system that cuts off the gas flow after a very short movement, the M1 does not. Bent op rods in and M1A are not caused from this. Also the 7.62 does not hold enough 4831 over a 180 gr bullet to significantly increase the gas port pressure. Has to do with the much smaller internal volume of the 7.62 case vs the '06 case.

With cast bullets in gas guns where you want 100% functional reliability it all boils down to the time pressure curve and the gas port pressures. With cast bullets the effective velocity is less than with jacketed bullets thus the peak pressure and the resulting time pressure curve are less when using the normal fast or medium burning powders that are associated with most cast bullet loads. This results in less gas port pressure and thus less than 100% functional reliability or none at all. The use of slower burning powders gives the required velocity with less pressure and a higher pressure (usually at the lower end of the required gas port pressure) at the gas pport. Thus, accurate cast bullet loads and the use of the slower burning powders such as 4350 or 4831, even with 220 gr bullets, do not give higher gas port pressures than the M1, M1A or the FN/FAL is designed for. The use of such slow burning powders can equate to reliable functioning and accuracy with cast bullets in gas guns. I believe that is the object of this exercise.

Larry Gibson

[overbore]

Larry on your run back; you touched the line on your own 20---:razz:

The reference cited is this: G l e n D . Z e d i k e r / H a n d l o a d i n g f o r C o m p e t i t i o n. He just happens to be the published authority on the subject two rifles and is the record holder with the M1A. Ahem---

I enlisted in 1956 so I have been around the block -at lest once- and became an NRA Lifer in 1978 so with all that said, thanks for your suggestions. No foul :razz:

Laus Deo
overbore

[LowPE]

What a great thread.

I have been using Saeco 315 with 21 grains of 2400 to good sucess mostly shooting the 25 meter Appleseed targets (Army Qualification Test).

I am using a Springfield M1a Loaded.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry on your run back; you touched the line on your own 20---:razz:

The reference cited is this: G l e n D . Z e d i k e r / H a n d l o a d i n g f o r C o m p e t i t i o n. He just happens to be the published authority on the subject two rifles and is the record holder with the M1A. Ahem---

I enlisted in 1956 so I have been around the block -at lest once- and became an NRA Lifer in 1978 so with all that said, thanks for your suggestions. No foul :razz:

Laus Deo
overbore


Overbore

Mr. Zediker and his publishings may be the "published authority" to you but I have read his writings for some time now. He says nothing that most of us have been saying long before he began writing it. Most of us have also been giving the same information on the 'standard" reload for M1A match ammo for years (168 MK over 41.5 gr of 4895). I also fail to see what he is the "record holder" of regarding the context of this thread. I also fail to see any writings of his on loading the M1A with cast bullets. I also fail to see any "expert" advise from him in this entire thread as Bruce was developing cast bullet loads. So please excuse me, no foul intended, but I do not stand corrected.

Larry Gibson

[overbore]

Larry, First, unless you can call my attention to any contrary publication on the M1A that is cited as a standard reference work by the experts at the M14 forum, you and I must agree that the Author is an expert on the RIFLE. With full an open respect to your cast bullet expertise, I see nothing in your writings referencing Port Pressure, the crux of my concerns.

Let us get to the core issue and my priorities I attach to any load from my 50 + years of handloading experience;
1. SAFETY, Shooter and Rifle

2. Accuracy

3. Ease of duplicating

With my criteria established, here are the author's AFETY concerns:

"Powder and Port Pressure

Yet another safety issue: which propellant to use. (Yes, there is a time when everyone gets to just go shoot their rifle, coming soon.)
For the M14 to function as a self loader, gases from firing are bled into the gas
cylinder from a port hole in the barrel; these gases are fed through a corresponding hole in the piston, which has a forward facing (into the cylinder) hollow end. When sufficient pressure has accumulated inside the cylinder, the piston moves rearward, the gas port inlet hole misaligns with that in the barrel and shuts off the flow, and the action stroke commences. The piston butts up against the operating rod at rest (before firing) so that when the piston moves to the rear it moves the op rod back, which, being connected to the bolt, opens the bolt and cycles the action. Legions of linkage.
Design specs call for the vicinity of 12,000 psi port pressure. The level of pressure that exists when the majority of gas reaches the barrel port is port pressure. Staying within this figure is easy provided we know propellant burning rate rankings. Port pressure is not the same as chamber pressure, nor are there direct corollaries: low chamber pressures do not necessarily mean low port pressures, and vice versa. Slow burning powders, which generally test to lower chamber pressures in .308 W., escalate port pressures to well above the limit for the M14. This has to do with the volume inside the barrel, which is increasing in front of the case as the bullet travels outward, and the amount of gas pressure behind the bullet during this journey, which can be greater with a “late blooming” powder. When port pressure exceeds specs, “blooms” at the port, the piston moves at excessive speed, which also moves back the op rod and bolt too quickly and forcibly. The gun gets battered or broken and the cases take that much more abuse due to faster unlocking of the bolt. I don’t know what port pressures are with all available gun powders, but that doesn’t matter as long as I know this: the burning rate that defines the upper limit is IMR® 4064. Use nothing slower. Ever.
This is not to say it’s necessary to use a “fast”powder. Then the same standards apply here as for most everything else. Fast powders (like H322) can overblow chamber pressures before producing adequate velocity, or port pressure, in a .308 W. case. However, anyone who sneezes dust might remember that one of the all-time greats in this use is IMR® 3031 at 39.5 grains (this was original in the original black and white boxed Federal® Match that shot so well). The time-proven performer in this rifle is one of the “4895s.” There are at least three and all are suitable, even though they’re not precisely the same. The 4895s are excellent, flexible performers: there’s a wide range of charge volumes that still produces top accuracy — just tune the speed. This, by the way, may be the only easy part of handloading for an M14: finding “the load” is not difficult. That’s been done."

Satisfy the port pressure concerns with listed loads and we are in sync. [smilie=s:[smilie=s:

Cordially,
overbore

[BruceB]

With all due respect to the "published wisdom", and I DO respect it, AS FAR AS IT GOES, the cited authors to date have apparently done zero research on cast bullet loads in the M1A/M14 platform.

This is not astrophysics. Anyone who is familiar with the M-14 operating system KNOWS that port pressure is demonstrated by the ejection pattern, the fall of the fired cases. In using ONE rifle, and only one rifle, variations are kept to a minimum, and involve only the ammunition.

The firing of around 500 rounds of the "published wisdom"'s standard load, 41.0/H4895/168 Matchking/CCI#34 in the new rifle gave me a very good idea of how the rifle functioned, including ejection, velocity, and pressure. I say "pressure", because the only primers ever used in the rifle, over 5000 to date, have been CCI#34 of the same production lot. As my load work progressed, I became quite confident in reading pressure from primers, at least to the extent of saying that the HOTTEST load fired to date in my rifle is the standard 41.0/4895/168 Matchking.

The ejection pattern changes along with port pressure, a point that was raised and expanded-upon in the course of this thread. It should be evident that cases of the same manufacture, same weight, and same loading history, and fired with CAST bullets, which land in the SAME AREA as cases fired with the "standard load", were driven by port pressure similar to that of the standard load. I repeat: a load which lands the cases in the same vicinity as does the standard load, is operating at PORT pressures similar to the standard load.

The burning speed of the powder is IRRELEVANT as long as the chamber pressure is safe and the port pressure is within normal operating limits.

An "authority" is NOT an authority in fields other than those in which he has some meaningful experience.

[Larry Gibson]

Overbore

You might want to pay attention to what Bruce says, he has learned the facts of the matter. Mr. Zediker is correct in his statements as you quote him however he is referring to high pressure high velocity jacketed bullet loads. This thread is concerned with cast bullets of light to heavy weight at a considerable less pressure than the 55-60,000 psi loads Mr. Zediker refers to. The very reason to use slow burning powders in cast loads to keep the port pressure at a functional level is explained very well by Mr. Zediker. You however are apparently misconstruing what he says. You also are misconstruing your experience with an M1 with what happens with a M1A/M14 system. You are essentially comparing apples to oranges.

FWIW; my first experience with an M14 was in basic training in '64, I qualified Expert. My training with M14s and m14E2s continued through infantry training and I used one for a while in Viet Nam. When I say "used one" I don't mean I was issued one and just carried it around either...I actually "used" it. I continued with competition using military M14s and my own M1As. I made Master HP classification with one shooting over the real course not a reduced course. I also made Master Classification with one at long range HP (600-1000 yards). I also manage a state championship in LE competition with an M1A and I also was a state short and long range IPSC champion with one. I have given combat instruction to US soldiers and foreign soldiers on the M14. I have built many match rifles, rack grade rifles and M14A1s over the years. I first reloaded for the M14/M1a in '69 and have loaded tens of thousands of round since then. My first cast bullet loads for the M1A and m14 were in '76 and I've shot thousands of cast bullet loads through numerous M1A/M14s since then. I still own two M1As, both rebuilt because I couldn't count the number of M1A/M14 barrels I've shot out. Now that may not make me an "expert' as Mr. Zediker is because I do not post over on that forum but then there are many forums I do not post on. I do not claim to be an "expert" here but I do think I know what I am talking about in this instance. Attached are a couple pictures of me with M1A/M14s over the years.

If you pay attention to Bruce, who has done his homework on loading cast bullets in the M1A, you just might learn something that Mr. Zediker might not know.

Larry Gibson

[acemedic13]

I have been loading cast for mine with mixed results. My first few rounds did not have enough ass on them to eject. So of course I came here and read through this site and it all worked out. Thanks AGAIN Bruce for putting experience out there and not an opinoin. Nothing like real range data to make it all work out.
I am damned sure no expert with the rifle. But we still pack em' at work and they still knock Americas enemies stone dead. It is still the best platform out there......Now there's an opinion.....


Great pictures Larry.

[joshmb1982]

sorry. i havent gotten past the first page here yet. but at these velocities on the first page(11-1500fps) was the rifle cycling properly, or did you turn the gas port off and cycle it as a straight pull bolt action?

[BruceB]

Josh;

Unless specifically mentioned, as with the 4198 loads, the rifle functioned as a semi-auto with all loads.

I'm not interested in using the M1A (or M1, for that matter) as an awkward straight-pull rifle. There are plenty of manually-operated rifles around here to satisfy any need I have for such rifles.

It's really past time for me to get back to the M1A project. Some new moulds are now on-scene, and many possible combinations still remain to be tried.

[StarMetal]

Overbore

You might want to pay attention to what Bruce says, he has learned the facts of the matter. Mr. Zediker is correct in his statements as you quote him however he is referring to high pressure high velocity jacketed bullet loads. This thread is concerned with cast bullets of light to heavy weight at a considerable less pressure than the 55-60,000 psi loads Mr. Zediker refers to. The very reason to use slow burning powders in cast loads to keep the port pressure at a functional level is explained very well by Mr. Zediker. You however are apparently misconstruing what he says. You also are misconstruing your experience with an M1 with what happens with a M1A/M14 system. You are essentially comparing apples to oranges.

FWIW; my first experience with an M14 was in basic training in '64, I qualified Expert. My training with M14s and m14E2s continued through infantry training and I used one for a while in Viet Nam. When I say "used one" I don't mean I was issued one and just carried it around either...I actually "used" it. I continued with competition using military M14s and my own M1As. I made Master HP classification with one shooting over the real course not a reduced course. I also made Master Classification with one at long range HP (600-1000 yards). I also manage a state championship in LE competition with an M1A and I also was a state short and long range IPSC champion with one. I have given combat instruction to US soldiers and foreign soldiers on the M14. I have built many match rifles, rack grade rifles and M14A1s over the years. I first reloaded for the M14/M1a in '69 and have loaded tens of thousands of round since then. My first cast bullet loads for the M1A and m14 were in '76 and I've shot thousands of cast bullet loads through numerous M1A/M14s since then. I still own two M1As, both rebuilt because I couldn't count the number of M1A/M14 barrels I've shot out. Now that may not make me an "expert' as Mr. Zediker is because I do not post over on that forum but then there are many forums I do not post on. I do not claim to be an "expert" here but I do think I know what I am talking about in this instance. Attached are a couple pictures of me with M1A/M14s over the years.

If you pay attention to Bruce, who has done his homework on loading cast bullets in the M1A, you just might learn something that Mr. Zediker might not know.

Larry Gibson

Little hijack here.

Larry, I'm working on my French M14, the MAS 49/56. I was patient and waited for a KVAR scope mount for it and finally got one. My rifle was rechambered to 308 so stay tuned we're going to see what she can do.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

A "French M14"....rather insulting comparison to say the least. The M49/56 has little to nothing to do with or in comparison to an M14. The french did hijack the trigger mechanism from the M1 Garand though. Otherwise the M49/56 has more in common with Ljungman M42, the Tokerev and the FN. No doubt with with cast bullets your velocities will be high and your accuracy will be sub moa as usual, I can hardly wait.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

A "French M14"....rather insulting comparison to say the least. The M49/56 has little to nothing to do with or in comparison to an M14. The french did hijack the trigger mechanism from the M1 Garand though. Otherwise the M49/56 has more in common with Ljungman M42, the Tokerev and the FN. No doubt with with cast bullets your velocities will be high and your accuracy will be sub moa as usual, I can hardly wait.

Larry Gibson


Larry,

I'll answer you statements here in the Military Rifles thread as not to hijack this one further.

Joe

[joshmb1982]

im now working on the third page here and it looks like your still using sraight WWs?? have you tried any other alloys pushing them a little faster?

[joshmb1982]

wow. what a read. i just finished all 6 pages. thank you bruce b for taking the time for all that. were your medical issues resolved i hope?? i have quite a bit of imr 4064 on hand. did it ever turn out a decent loading for you?

[fatelvis]

I seat both 311466 and 311467 to the same overall length, as they have identical nose shapes. I discovered yesterday that the length I've been using is TOO LONG to allow loaded rounds to be extracted from the chamber....they leave the boolits jammed in the throat!
Bruce B, I'm in the process of loading some 311466s for my M1A, and I know you gave up on this bullet due to live round ejecting problems, but I was wondering what OAL did you settle on that worked the best on target, before you scrapped it? Thanks-

[fatelvis]

So what load ended up producing the best groups, and operating the rifle reliably?

[Splatter]

So what load ended up producing the best groups, and operating the rifle reliably?
What an excellent question!
Or how about the top 3 loads, please?

[BruceB]

Gents;

All the info is contained in the thread, including group sizes and functioning data.

The vast majority of the loads work fine in MY rifle.

I mostly wanted to get a wide variety of loads published to give others a place to start, and it's up to each individual to determine what works for his own rifle, both for function and accuracy.

Accuracy results in MY rifle are just that....YOUR rifle may be entirely different in its tastes, and YOU will have to find out.

I'm hoping to re-start some M1A test loading soon, and info will be posted here in the same format I've used so far.

Best of luck to y'all.....

[longrifle]

after all the pb shooting in the m1a how does the gas system look when cleaning, how is the lead build up in the bores.
I understand shooting lead in levers, and bolts, but not gas system firearms that were designed for copper bullets.
can anyone post a pic of a gas system of a semi auto after shooting a couple hundred rounds, and how many rounds can you shoot till failure of the gas system or firearm to reload.
I would be willing to try shooting lead in a sks but not my 1500 m1a the thought makes me shutter.

[BruceB]

[QUOTE=longrifle;1147069]after all the pb shooting in the m1a how does the gas system look when cleaning, how is the lead build up in the bores."


NONE.

"Can anyone post a pic of a gas system of a semi auto after shooting a couple hundred rounds, and how many rounds can you shoot till failure of the gas system or firearm to reload."

In my M1A there is NO metallic fouling in bore or gas system even fter SIX hundred consecutive rounds. This was mentioned in the thread...did you read it? It was still functioning perfectly after those 600 rounds.

"I would be willing to try shooting lead in a sks but not my 1500 m1a"

I've never loaded cast bullets in an SKS. MY "$1500 M1A" loves cast loads. What's the problem?

[nicholst55]

I think longrifle needs to read the thread Old Wives Tales and Misinformation (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=104710).

[fatelvis]

Hey Bruce, have you tried experimenting with 8208 yet? I've been doing good with ~24 grns 5744 under a 311466 in my M1A, but I have 8lbs of 8208 XBR staring at me from the powder locker. Hmmmmm.

[longrifle]

like I said before its your 1500 dollor gun, and when people read this and anyother post that gas operated firearms can safely shoot lead and not damage the firearm or potentially damage anything else I can only hope there is enough common sense to NOT USE LEAD in there fire arms. old wives tale or not
Use lead in a firearm ment for lead then you don't have to worry about old wives tale and becomeing a Darwin award winner

just my 2 cents

[45-70bpcr]

like I said before its your 1500 dollor gun, and when people read this and anyother post that gas operated firearms can safely shoot lead and not damage the firearm or potentially damage anything else I can only hope there is enough common sense to NOT USE LEAD in there fire arms. old wives tale or not
Use lead in a firearm ment for lead then you don't have to worry about old wives tale and becomeing a Darwin award winner

just my 2 cents

I don't know but I have had a ball shooting cast in my NM M1a BECAUSE it is a $1500 gun. Way less pounding on the op rod, the bedding job takes much less abuse, brass lasts longer, less recoil, barrel wear minimized, and costs a fraction of shooting match jacketed. Oh ya, zero fouling in the gas system and no leading. Bruce did his homework and I'm glad he has shared his carefully gathered results with us. You of course should do as you see fit with your gun. I just cast up another 1200 311299's many of which I will be running through my M1a this season.

[fatelvis]

like I said before its your 1500 dollor gun, and when people read this and anyother post that gas operated firearms can safely shoot lead and not damage the firearm or potentially damage anything else I can only hope there is enough common sense to NOT USE LEAD in there fire arms. old wives tale or not
Use lead in a firearm ment for lead then you don't have to worry about old wives tale and becomeing a Darwin award winner

just my 2 cents
Hello Longrifle, and welcome to the forum! I may be wrong, but judging by the number of your posts, I assume you are fairly new to this website.
If you are, allow me to say that I have found far more knowledge on this website about casting, loading, and shooting lead projectiles than anywhere else in my 30 years of shooting. The guys here take shooting lead very seriously, and there is much to be learned here. If you have any questions about shooting lead through a semi-auto, you definately came to the right place!
(With the help of Gentleman on this website) Myself, and many others have fired countless lead Boolits through our Garands and SKSs, and now I have 360 rounds of lead through my M1A with no detectable leading in the gas system whatsoever. BruceB stated that he shot an excess of 600 rounds of lead through his, (without cleaning) with no detectable leading, and the rifle functions flawlessly. To me, that is convincing enough to say that he has a winning combo of bullet design, alloy, size diameter, powder type and weight to try it myself. So I did. If you don't feel comfortable shooting lead through your M1A, by all means, don't. It's your rifle. But thanks to the experimentation of others on this site, and the low pressures involved with shooting these lead projectiles, I feel safe that with regular maintenence and cleaning of your weapon, there are no safety issues or dangers of ruining my rifle. After all, I bought my rifle to shoot it. And with the price of match bullets pushing $30/100. Casting looks better and better all the time!
Once again, hello, and good shootin'!

[longrifle]

I was going to write a long, conveluted pile of info here but instead I will keep my nose out of this thread for now on, I'm sorry for butting in be safe and keep shooting that is the most important

[7br]

I was going to write a long, conveluted pile of info here but instead I will keep my nose out of this thread for now on, I'm sorry for butting in be safe and keep shooting that is the most important

LongRifle,
I think most of us on the board have been slapped upside the head with a clue stick enough times that we know we can be mistaken. If you have a pile of information, we are more than willing to look at it and digest it. Might post it on another thread though as not to muck this one up. Don't be surprised though if someone says "Hell, I was there and that ain't the way it is". (Sorry Elmer) There are quite a few of us willing to challenge "conventional" wisdom and do some sperimenting. Ask a question around here, and you will probably get "been there, done that" from somebody. Also, do not be suckered into the sometimes bucolic charm of this site. We have greenhorns and we have folks that have been over the mountain and back. We have more than one competitive high power shooter here. I have been shooting IHMSA for more than 15 years and am still learning. Heck, even one of the decent gun writers drops by from time to time. Folks on the board have sent literally tons of lead down range and have a pretty good idea of what is going on. Bruce is has travelled fairly far afield with his casting and has done a pretty good job of documenting it. People know his work and trust him.

In short, welcome to the board. We welcome lively discussion and generally treat people with the same amount of respect they afford others.

[longrifle]

from personal knowledge I just disagree in useing lead in gas operated firearms, they weren't designed for it. there's a post here about an ak that proves my point, old wives tale or not I believe it is a bad practice to use lead in gas operated firearms, i'm not against people that do just don't want some newbie blowing there hand off from a gun that malfunctions, if someone is taught safely and by someone with experience then cool it's there 1500 dollar gun not mine. and you all can point out all the pros and cons and it boils down to opinion of what is right for them. all i ask for the newbie's out there find personal hands on experience inspect there firearms, inspect yours and use common sence, if your new to reloading lead start with a lever or smoke pole leave the gas to someone with experience

[mckutzy]

BruceB, Wow thanks for quite the in depth tests, this is very nice to hear. I have read most of the post u have made and Ill have to reread again, I had a few questions though..
My friend has recently acquired a Polytech m305(m14), so not exactly a true Springfield but close, he plans to a few thing to like change the sights and get trigger tuned and a few others, I have been suggesting to him to get into reloading more and more for the other guns he has, but now it comes down to the m14 he want to really wants to shoot, but like the "others" that worry about the leading their guns...

-In your experiments do u have to use a gas checks on your projectiles for say 2000fps +(more to match the original loading)
-if so, how much might be for the offset of startup with GC aprox. say for a batch size of 1000 to start(like check maker,material etc.)
-Is it a hard lead(regular WW or different)
-I see u have good amount of shooting without much or no leading in the gas piston or elsewhere, what a good tip for new guys and that will help the same process along.

[Ford SD]

To answer your Question about gas checks

Yes you need gas checks

the Norinco/ polly m305 will not know the difference from the information here

but you have to work up a load in your gun

the factory sight on the copy's are not that bad unless you can find a NM Sight
so keep the factory unless you have $$ to burn
the $$ is better spent on having fun and practice

cost wise unless you know some one to cast lead bullets for you it can be expensive to try for a one time project
Most casters cast for the hard to find cal or the expensive ones or cast to keep the cost down

if you can find some one to cast/lube/size and install gas for you
(that they all ready have the mould you are looking to load)
you might be able to trade some wheel weights 10-30 lb for some ready to load cast bullets
and then you still need to expand and flair the neck of your rifle brass

and you need a different powder

Post a ad up in your club

Member interested in learning how to Cast ---> is one way start :mrgreen:

[BruceB]

[QUOTE=mckutzy;1163770]BruceB, Wow thanks for quite the in depth tests, this is very nice to hear. I have read most of the post u have made and Ill have to reread again, I had a few questions though..
My friend has recently acquired a Polytech m305(m14), so not exactly a true Springfield but close, he plans to a few thing to like change the sights and get trigger tuned and a few others, I have been suggesting to him to get into reloading more and more for the other guns he has, but now it comes down to the m14 he want to really wants to shoot, but like the "others" that worry about the leading their guns...

"-In your experiments do u have to use a gas checks on your projectiles for say 2000fps +(more to match the original loading)"

Every cast bullet fired in my M1A used a gascheck.



"if so, how much might be for the offset of startup with GC aprox. say for a batch size of 1000 to start(like check maker,material etc.)

Contact "Blammer" on this Board for info on gascheck costs.



"Is it a hard lead(regular WW or different)
-I see u have good amount of shooting without much or no leading in the gas piston or elsewhere, what a good tip for new guys and that will help the same process along."

ALL the bullets in this thread were water-dropped wheelweight alloy. Bullets were sized to .311". There is NO leading anywhere in the rifle, and no special techniques were used. All the info is already posted in the various posts.



"robertbank" in British Columbia is casting for a Chinese M14 clone, but I think it's a Norinco. You might want to send him a PM.

[mckutzy]

thankyou very much guys for your response's. Ill pass on the info.:Fire::Fire::Fire:

[Tertle]

BruceB, just wanted to say thanks heaps for the posts, i have a Norinco 305 that is the next rifle to be loaded for using lead projectiles.

Ive been tinkering with cast loading and am very much enjoying this aspect of reloading, infact really cant see me going back to the jacketed things again!

Your posts are extremely informative and a great source of reference material. Keep it up! i will need to go back over it all again as there is a bit to take in, but its a great read.

cheers

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

I have tried about a dozen of BruceB's suggested loads in two different CETME's.

A bit of allowance for differences netted me a load w/WCC-844 over 1900fps and under 2" at a hundred for 10shots with a scope, either rifle, and 3"+/- with the iron sights. At 62, with trifocals, I had to break down and get a pair of shooting glasses made.

I went with BruceB (instead of the no-data expert) since I did not have a 1500 rifle, I assume that is a $1500 rifle minus the "$" sign. I paid $175 each for mine.
Thanks BruceB,

Rich
getting by nicely, and thanks for asking...

[9.3X62AL]

I just completed a re-read of this thread, and more than any other sentiment felt during the reading was a sense of emptiness......not having an M1A to play with! This has not always been the case--I've owned two (both Springers) over the years. These rifles were a ton of fun, as was an HK-91 also chambered to the 7.62 x 51.......but the costs to run them was prohibitive, even while making pretty good coin working lots of OT. They all went down the road, this during times I was merely dabbling with cast boolits in long arms. None of the three ever saw a cast boolit--and that's a shame, because I would have kept an M1A that was affordable to shoot. One of these days--maybe. I do enjoy the critters.

[Mk42gunner]

I hear you Al, I wish I would have went ahead and ordered the loaded M1-A for $1200.00 from the pawnshop in Fernley, before I retired.

One of these days I will get my finances squared away; then when I am debt free, my present to myself wil be an M1-A.

Robert

[dogman]

Any thoughts on what primers should be used or work well with the M1A and cast boolits?

[BruceB]

M1A is essentially a military rifle firing a military cartridge.

The physical facts of the system, including the CHANCE (although small) of slam-fires, made it imperative in my mind to minimize the possibilities of such incidents.

EVERY SINGLE ROUND fired in the project to date has been ignited by a CCI#34 "military" primer, and I have no plans to change that. In fact I recently obtained another 5000 #34s just for 7.62 NATO/.30-06 loading in semi-auto rifles.

I advise anyone dealing with such rifles to do likewise.

[mroliver77]

I hear you Al, I wish I would have went ahead and ordered the loaded M1-A for $1200.00 from the pawnshop in Fernley, before I retired.

One of these days I will get my finances squared away; then when I am debt free, my present to myself wil be an M1-A.

Robert
It really sucks that our keepers have outlawed importation of guns from China. The Chinese M1A are a good gun. They did have bolt troubles but from what I read that is cured. My old Polytech has a GI bolt and is a nice gun.
I also have an SA Inc. " NM" M1A that is a fine shooter. Both see lot's of cast. I bought a few K of Rusky .311 condoms resized to .308 but still like cast. ;)
J

[ReloaderEd]

I was watching guys at our gun club inVancouver Washington shoot cast bullets out to 300 yds. the best group was 1 3/4 inches. But not in M1a's.
I studied up on this an d checked our turning cases to assure wall neck thickness and concentricity. This includes but not limited to: indexing the bullet mold, casting bullets, weighing bullets, lubing bullets to the index marks and loading bullets indexed to the cartridges and finally the loaded cartridges indexed to the rifle chamber. I concluded it is not a waste of time but one can be as picky as one wants al long as they have the spare time and don't wanna go fishing or something else. Have you or any of you tried this? what was your results? thanks!!! Be Safe

[Ford SD]

Well off and on for the last two years I have been trying cast in a Norinco
A Semi only copy of the M14/ M1a

I have tried only 2 different molds a
RCBS 150g fn ( for the 30-30) and the
RCBS 165 sil bullet cast at 173g

no problems feeding from the mag

I have not given up YET another mold is on order
Some not bad groups but nothing to brag about
but have had some comments "I wish I could shoot like that"
The eye opener is when i tell them it is cast in a semi and no leading

I work up a load slowly and might redo a load several times

for example if a load is min 1 and max is 10
first time out 1,2,3,4,5 and look at results
2nd 3,4,5,6,7 and look at results
3rd 4,5,6,7,8 and look at results
4th 6,7,8,9,10 and look at results
5 redo what i think is promising and it reduces the bad days :-( when groups open up

so i get different weather conditions, temp. etc and i get to have fun at the same time I have put around 900 rounds of cast through my rifle, with several powders
Most of the loads i have tried eject the brass but fail to pick up the next round
I think the 180g I have on order might be the ticket to 100% function

I do not clean very often (I used to clean after every trip to the range even if i only fired 20 rounds)

I now only after every 2/3/400 rounds or more
I might only pull a Hopps soaked patch through the barrel

but one of the problems i have found is the gas port switch gets stuck and will not turn with out using some force

so now if i do not clean right away i put a drop of gun oil in the gas port hole and give the switch a turn to spread the oil around and it has stopped or reduced the sticking

I do not know if it is because of less wax/ lube on the cast bullets i use or the powder or the weather in my area

The most leading I have had has come out with either a patch or 2-3 passes with a bronze brush

I my mind that means NO LEADING using ww with a bit of solder AIR COOLED:cbpour: sized to .3095

Looking forward to the next trip to the range and more posts on this great site

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

My old klunkers just digested 60 rounds each of the 311365 at just over 1800fps. They look like I cleaned them, and scoped shot a bit over 2moa. The 20-15 vision nephew turned in some nice groups in the low 2" range with the irons.

The alloy was 96-2-2 water dropped. Now I have to get the kid to learn how to make good boolets...

Rich
28-degrees at daylight this morning, 41 at the range at 1pm

[ph4570]

Bruce,

Many thanks for your work with the M1A and boolits. I am mouse clicks away from snapping up a SA NA9102 and it will spit lead.

[fatelvis]

There is a warm fuzzy feeling that comes from shooting fairly accurate cast boolits from my M1A, and having it cycle normally. I'm hoping to get the groups down to 2 MOA. You can tell by the report, recoil, and cyclic action that it is very gentle on the gun. Not paying $30/box of bullets is another plus!!

[cpt Dan Blodgett]

All the years I shot High Power never heard of anyone that did not warn of using slow powders in gas guns. 748, 4985, 2520, 4064 and varget were commonly used. Shoot slower powders if you like, I just know none of the Distiquished Rifle guys I knew never did.
If you can measure chamber and port pressure, anything within specs is, well within specs.

I cant so stick to loads and powders recommended.

[BruceB]

All the years I shot High Power never heard of anyone that did not warn of using slow powders in gas guns. 748, 4985, 2520, 4064 and varget were commonly used. Shoot slower powders if you like, I just know none of the Distiquished Rifle guys I knew never did.
If you can measure chamber and port pressure, anything within specs is, well within specs.

I cant so stick to loads and powders recommended.

HOW MANY TIMES must it be repeated????

Your "Distinguished" guys NEVER, repeat: NEVER fired a cast bullet in their match rifles. NEVER. I will guarantee that. Ergo, they may know everything about jacketed loads, but ZERO about cast loads in their rifles.

The rifle operates on GAS PORT PRESSURE. If that pressure is in the normal operating zone, the rifle will operate safely and correctly.

Within rather loose limits (such as: 5744 to H and IMR 4831), IT DOESN'T MATTER how that pressure is generated, or by what powder, or its speed of burning. If the port pressure is correct, and chamber pressure is safe, the recipe is fine insofar as safety is concerned.

The manner in which the rifle operates is its own PROOF of whether or not the pressure is correct. These are not bolt-actions, which leave their users largely in the dark as to what pressure levels are being generated....until it's too late.

My own M1A rifle is now leaning hard on 7000 rounds fired. About 6200 of those rounds were cast-bullet loads, and the vast majority of those cast loads functioned perfectly in the semi-auto mode. Apart from maybe operating a bit more smoothly after all that shooting, the rifle shows NO wear of any sort, nor any ill effects from all that "non-HANDBOOK" shooting. My purpose in starting this thread was precisely to explore the use of CAST BULLETS in the M1A , because so little information existed on the subject.

"But, but, but....it's not in the (sob) haaaaandbooook(sniff, wail)." Tough. Use the info, or don't use the info. Just don't preach at ME. MY loads in this thread were carefully created, and I am very familiar with the rifle type and how it works.. Many handloaders have found the data to be useful and SAFE.

Maybe some of you should just go back to the sainted handbooks and store-bought jacketed bullets, and never look over the fence or down the road....but this is CAST BOOLITS, dedicated to the use and development of cast-bullet shooting...... DEVELOPMENT. EXPERIMENTATION. MODIFICATION. INNOVATION.

Foreign words to some people in this hobby!

[fatelvis]

Amen my Lead-loving Brother! Lol

[9.3X62AL]

And don't shoot handloads in Glocks, either! Gaston would be so scandalized.

I really push the envelope--not only have I shot hundreds of cast boolit rounds through a Glock 21, I've also fired a significant number of cast boolits through Bruce's M1A. I'm still alive--no mushroom clouds, fallout, nuclear winter, or anything untoward. Cast boolit shooting has DIFFERING RULES--some are more lax, others are far more restrictive than the caveats surrounding jacketed bullet handcrafting.

This is not "new" information in all cases--it was fairly well known through the 1930s, but after WWII bulletmakers really got busy and built the handloading market around jacketed bullets. By the late 1960s, jacketed bullets for most handgun calibers became readily available, so bullet casting and the use of cast bullets (esp. in rifles) largely died out.

This board in its ongoing ideations is pledged to the idea of re-discovering that lost knowledge and to advancing the craftwork. I don't think Bruce posted his information to be reckless. Rather, he discovered an attribute of the M1A rifle--explored it in depth--presented and discussed it here--and MANY others have duplicated his work successfully. To date, I know of no instance in which an M1A rifle using Bruce's data has been damaged in any way.

[ph4570]

I get my new Christmas gift SA NM M1A out of jail on Monday. I will fire some J-word projectiles for break in and then switch to boolits for most of the rest of fun. Thank you Bruce for providing some starting point loads for my own experimentation.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

My thanks again for all this hard work on our behalf. I brought my DPMS Heavy Sniper 308 home today.

I need to get started casting some NOE 311365's as soon as I get back from the SHOT Show.

Rich

[Splatter]

...I brought my DPMS Heavy Sniper 308 home today.

I'm interested in how it works, the direct gas impingment vs the piston of the M 14-type rifle.
Please post your work and results.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

I plan on being meticulous to the point of anal.
I am buying a second chronograph so I can double check all of the velocities, and every load that fires the first round safely will get the other nine shot.
I have Black Hills Match 168gr for a benchmark load, and will do the break-in using 50 rounds.

It will be interesting to compare data with the databank BruceB has established.

if I can just keep the j-bullet nerds out...

Rich
see you at the SHOT Show Monday morning.

[WD2A7X3]

Awesome thread, I have a M1A and FAL that I'll be feeding cast bullets in the next few weeks once the powder gets here. I know this started 6 years ago but hopefully I can add some more data soon with the bullet and power I'll be using.

.308 is just too pricey to really be able to enjoy shooting. As long as I can pull off 5 MOA I'll be more then happy for pratice ammo.

[BulletFactory]

Maybe I missed it, but what barrel length are you using? I have the sweet 16.

[BulletFactory]

Bruce, I would assume that you put as much effort into your cases as you do in your casting, it stands to reason.

What dies do you recommend for the M1A?

I was looking at these.


http://www.midwayusa.com/product/473959/rcbs-ar-series-small-base-2-die-set-with-taper-crimp-308-winchester

Thanks.

[gmsharps]

Bruce thank you for your time and dedication to this endeaver. I have a super match M1A that I used to shoot high powerwith for number of years and it mainly sits in the safe now days do to the evolution of the AR platform. Your information will greatly reduce the time to get this great old rifle to shooting Cast Boolits. I appreciate your efforts.

gmsharps

[BulletFactory]

Bruce, I would assume that you put as much effort into your cases as you do in your casting, it stands to reason.

What dies do you recommend for the M1A?

I was looking at these.


http://www.midwayusa.com/product/473959/rcbs-ar-series-small-base-2-die-set-with-taper-crimp-308-winchester

Thanks.

Nevermind, I found it, finally got the chance to read the entire thread. I tried to search for larrys thread on the dies, but came up empty.

[Larry Gibson]

I'll post it here.

Larry Gibson

RCBS X-DIES: A TEST

By Larry M. Gibson


Surprisingly, there was little fanfare with the introduction of RCBS’s X-Dies. All I saw were small blurbs in the trade magazines and mention of them in Rick Jamison’s Shooting Times column. Advertised to reduce or eliminate case stretch the question is; do they? My real interest was: Will they reduce case stretch, i.e. increase case life, of 7.62 NATO (that’s .308 WIN to you non-mil types) cases fired in M14/M1A’s?

The number of reloadings per case for M14/M1A’s is probably the worst of any rifle/cartridge combination short of the .303 Lee Enfield family. Incipient head separation is the reason for case loss. My experience with rack grade M14/M1A’s is five good firings per case with the sixth being a “throwaway”. This is only if the brass was fired in a bolt gun or M14/M1A to begin with. A match M14/M1A with a tight “match” chamber may get 1-2 more firings but more often not. If surplus once fired brass is used the first firing was more than likely done in a machine gun and only 1-2 reloadings/firings are possible before head separation.

Most head separations can be identified as a speckled crack forming around the case just ahead of the web at the expansion ring. This crack is sometimes quite obvious. Then on some cases the head will separate from the case on ejection. Many times both parts of the separated case are ejected. But sometimes only the head is ejected leaving the front half of the case in the chamber. The rifle picks up the next round attempting to chamber it and things get jammed up. Not good! The other question here; is there gas cutting damage to the chamber?

What causes this incipient head separation to happen? Simply put, on firing, the case expands to grip the chamber walls sealing off the gas pressure. When the bullet leaves the barrel pressures are reduced and the case contracts (not to its original dimensions) releasing it’s grip on the chamber walls and allowing extraction. However, it appears that the M14/M1A begins extraction prior to the pressure dropping completely. The cases do not contract as much as they would if fired in a bolt action for instance. Compounding the problem is the mil-specs for military chambers are somewhat generous in their diameter dimension to allow for functional reliability during combat conditions. When full-length resizing (necessary for M14/M1A) case walls are squeezed in first. This pushes the shoulder forward. The shoulder is then set back by the FL die and the brass flows forward into and elongating the neck. This increases the case length on each resizing considerably. Also, since the brass at the expansion ring expanded and was squeezed in and forward during resizing the case gets progressively thinner in that specific area. The result is, eventually, a head separation at that thinning location. Most mil-spec (US) chambers allow for a maximum case length of about 2.045”. I, like most M14/M1A users, have found trimming unnecessary. Incipient case head separation will occur, and cases discarded, before maximum case length is reached and trimming is necessary.

Are these RCBS X-Dies a cure for this? I decided to use my rack grade M1A to put them to the test. The issue GI barrel has quite a generous mil-spec chamber with headspace being within tolerance. This usually results in the fifth firing being the “throwaway” for brass in this rifle. It has untold thousands of rounds through it, many rapid fire. Accuracy capability is 2 1/2-3 MOA with M118 Special Ball or equivalent reload. This would be the best “worst case” test rifle. All rounds would be fired with the rifle loading from the magazine in normal semi-auto function. Slow fire single loading technique would not be used.

For ammunition I selected 10 rounds of LC 92 M118 Special Ball. A check for concentricity revealed a runout of .011” for one round with the others being .004-.007”.

My M118 equivalent load is:

BRASS: The 10 LC 92 cases from the selected M118 Special Ball
PRIMER: Winchester WLR
POWDWER: H4895 – 41gr
BULLET: M118 174gr
CARTRIDGE OAL: 2.8”

Other than deburring the flash hole, chamfering the case mouth and removing the primer pocket crimp, there was no special “case preparation” done. Cases were measured after each resizing with the minimum to maximum case lengths recorded. Concentricity was checked after each loading. Two cases (marked and tracked) consistently had .004-.005” runout with all others being .0005-.003” throughout the test. Neck thickness (outside diameter) was measured after each loading to check for brass flow into the neck area.

The test would be concluded based on any one of these criteria:

Any sign of incipient head separation.
Case buckled or dimensionally damaged/deformed during resizing.
Split neck or body.
Case length exceeding 2.045”.
Loose primer pockets.
Neck thickening to cause excessive runout (.010”).
Drastic deterioration of accuracy. (6th, 12th and 18th groups will
be fired in Fulton Armory Match M1A to verify accuracy)
Malfunctions caused by damaged (dinged up) cases.

All test firing was conducted at Tacoma Rifle and Revolver range.
The range has solid cement benches, which were used with sandbag rests front and rear. A 100 yard reduced “A” bull target was used. All targets were at 100 yards. I set up the Oehler 35P to chronograph all rounds fired for each 10 shot string. But as the test went on, and on, and on I quit chronographing after the 10th string. Chronograph results were consistent and showed no variation other than that normally expected. The LC 92 M118 averaged 2600 FPS and the M118 equivalent reload averaged 2575 FPS for the subsequent 9 ten shot strings chronographed.

The RCBS X-Die was installed in my Pacific single stage press and adjusted as per the instructions. It’s really quite easy. These dies differ from other FL dies in the dimension and design of the decapping rod. The diameter of the rod is larger and appears to act as a mandrill of sorts. There is a shoulder on it, which controls the length as the case. Apparently the case is prevented from stretching by the case mouth butting against this shoulder. Thus the decapping rod must be carefully adjusted as per the instructions. This shoulder is the key to the success of the die.

I found on the second resizing that the expander was really getting hard to pull through the necks. Also, the lengths of the cases were varying more than I thought they should. Case lubing technique was changed to standing the cases in a tray. They were then sprayed lightly with Dillon case lube. With this method the necks (lube gets sprayed lightly into the case mouth) pulled over the expander quite easily and the uniformity of case length dramatically improved. Cases are cleaned again to remove the lube. This should also remove the lube from the inside of the case neck.

Throughout the test case length never exceeded 2.027” and actually remained quite consistent. After the 12th resizing the necks had begun to thicken by about .001” at the shoulder to taper forward about 1/3 of the way to the case mouth. However, this did not adversely affect concentricity or accuracy.

The case rims got a little beat up but there were no malfunctions of any kind. This included the 2 firings in the match chamber M1A. Primer pockets remained tight throughout the test. I thought the case mouths would require rechamfering but they did not. Accuracy remained consistent with the rack grade M1A. The LC 92 M118 ten shot group was 2.8”. The last (15th) ten shot group with the M118 equivalent load was 2.4”, the average of groups 2-15 being 2.7”. Groups 6 and 12 were fired with the match M1A to verify the accuracy and both were 1.6”.

The test was concluded after the 15th firing based on incipient head separation. One case developed that slight speckled circle at the expansion ring. There was no clear-cut crack and probably no gas cutting happened. I may or may not continue the test with the rest of the cases.

Tabulated below are the measurements after each resizing:

RESIZING---MINIMUM----MAXIMUM---INCREASE
------------CASE--------CASE-----IN CASE
------------LENGTH-----LENGTH----LENGTH

1-----------2.013------2.019----------

2-----------2.021------2.025------.006

3-----------2.025------2.027------.002

4-----------2.025------2.027------.000

5-----------2.022------2.027------.000

6-----------2.023------2.025----(-).002

7-----------2.023------2.025------.000

8-----------2.024------2.026------.001

9-----------2.024------2.027------.001

10----------2.025------2.027------.000

11----------2.025------2.027------.000

12----------2.024------2.026----(-).001

13----------2.025------2.026------.000

14----------2.024------2.027------.001


Case length evened out at the third resizing and remained fairly consistent. Interestingly #’s 6 & 12 that were fired in the match M1A show a decrease in length! At #12 is where I detected a thickening (.001”) of the case necks in the shoulder area which tapered forward. Again this did not affect concentricity or accuracy.


Questions not addressed in this test:

1. Case life when used in match chambers or bolt guns?

2. Case life of cases already fired several times?

3. Case life of surplus once-fired (in machine guns) cases?

4. Case life of civilian manufactured (Rem,Win,Fed,PMC,et all) cases?

The answers to these questions will probably have results as positive, if not more so, than this test.

My technique for loading M14/M1A ammo now will probably be as follows:

1. Clean cases
2. Stand cases in loading trays and spray lightly with Dillon case lube.
3. Size with RCBS X-Die using Pacific single stage press.
4. Clean cases. Clean primer pockets. (On 1st resizing prep cases by: remove primer crimp, deburr flash hole, turn necks, trim to uniform length and chamfer case mouth). Conduct visual inspection for defects (split necks, head separation, etc.).
5. Load on Dillon 550B. Use a Bonanza neck size die or a Redding bushing die at station 1. This may or may not be necessary. The idea here is to iron out any dents the second cleaning may have caused in the case mouth and maybe uniform neck tension on the bullet.

This limited test revealed that; using the RCBS X-Dies, when reloading for the M14/M1A, one may expect 3 times or more firings per case as when using standard dies. I have been using Bonanza Benchrest FL Dies prior to this. I’ve never found the need for small base dies, as some recommend, for they really shorten case life.

This increase of case life is, in my opinion, truly astounding. Also, it appears case trimming is unnecessary. I would hope RCBS would make them in a wider array of caliber’s than currently available. I will buy more of them. When I think of the thousands of 5-6 times fired brass I have thrown out … Oh well!

Good luck, good shooting and good hunting

Addendum: I continued on with the test using the remaining nine cases. On the 16th firing another case showed signs of incipient
Case head separation. The other eight cases have been fired 20 times. I doubt I’ll continue on as 20 firings per case is enough.

[BruceB]

Larry, thank you. This is invaluable.

On the query about my cartridge cases in this thread, I was really most-interested in seeing what results could be had in the M1A WITHOUT a lot of match-conditioning techniques, since none of my rifles are ever used in such serious work.

So....

ALL the brass was new-unfired (never loaded, never crimped} LC88 production. Only conventional processes were used, meaning trim-to-length before first loading, and regular length checks through the life of the cases. A Wilson cartridge gauge was used on EVERY loaded cartridge throughout the project. Such gauges do indicate over-length cases as well as proper sizing.

I bought an RCBS X-die late in the process, but never did get around to using it much. Based on Larry's results detailed immediately above, I HIGHLY RECOMMEND the use of this important improvement for all auto-loading cartridges for which the tooling is available.

Seeing how many folks have found this thread to be useful, I am VERY glad that I started it! All contributions are much-appreciated, to say the least. If my medical condition improves, I have a few more things I want to add here my ownself...

[BulletFactory]

Thank you.

[BulletFactory]

I read on the midway advertisement for the dies, that RCBS wants you to trim .020 from the cases to standardize them.

My confusion is this.

Do they want you to trim the .020 from once (or more) fired casings, from new brass, from brass previously trimmed to SAAMI, or from brass that has been sized in a "standard" FL sizing die?

[Larry Gibson]

I read on the midway advertisement for the dies, that RCBS wants you to trim .020 from the cases to standardize them.

My confusion is this.

Do they want you to trim the .020 from once (or more) fired casings, from new brass, from brass previously trimmed to SAAMI, or from brass that has been sized in a "standard" FL sizing die?

Quite frankly for use in milsurp chambers I do not bother with the trimming as per RCBS directions. If the cases are new or once fired I adjust the mandrel to the oal of those cases when in the die as per the instructions for setting the mandrel after the 1st trimming. The reason is that all milsurp chambers are generally generous in dimensions. This includes the chamber neck length. If the mandrel is set the cases will all even out at that setting.

I have several X Dies for various cartridges and I quit doing the 1st trimming unless the batch of cases has unfired aol's that are a lot different.

One last note; RCBS also sells "SB" X dies and some for semi auto's. For milsurp chambers you do not need either as they both over size the cases. Get the standard X Die. My standard X die even sizes the case sufficiently for chambering in the tight match chaber of my M70 target rifle. I've yet to find a need, in over 40 years of loading for the .308W, for a SB die.

Larry Gibson

[BulletFactory]

Not trying to hijack your thread Bruce.

[10mmShooter]

Hi Everyone not to revive an old thread,

But I'm seeking guidance so I dont re-invent the wheel, I have used the seach feature and been all over the internet and this is really the only area that seems to have any info on shooting cast bullets from a M1a...and have the weapon cycle correctly(without modifing of the gas system or shooting it single shot) and not damage it.

Heres where I am.

I have chose a "heavier" 180g Saceo #305 mold size .311, appears to be a "shorter" .30 cal bullet so I can stay off the lands(dont want to jam a lead round in and have to eject it and then dump powder all over the action as Bruce has described. Also I'm concerned about have to seat the bullet too deep and gas check below the neck of brass, its my understading this a big no no for gas checks ?? I'm willing to give up a touch of accuracy to avoid that issue.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/137367/saeco-2-cavity-bullet-mold-305-31-caliber-311-diameter-180-grain-flat-nose-gas-check

I chose the .311 sizing so I can size down to .310 if I need to or I go to .311. I was hoping to use my go powder IMR 4895, but I'm concerned I would have to drop the charge to low and leave to much empty case volume.

So for powder I think I've settled on SR-4759 since it was used in reduced 30-06 loads and should give me a nearly full case of powder at around 22-27grains which will be the max loading based on my old Lyman manual and similar shape/weight bullets.

I'm open to suggestions, I wish I could use my stock IMR4895 powder :( Also I know I will need to use gas checks, I think Hornaday make the preferred checks?? Is this correct? Also I'm be using Thompson Blue angel lube have plenty and it will be more that sufficet for 1800fps velocitys.

[seabreeze133]

My best load was with a150 gr cast boolit similar to the Lyman 31141 GC, 29.5 gr H335, and WLR primers Remington brass. About 1950 fps and 7/8x3/4 10 groups at 50 yds. don't remember the 100 yd groups. Cycled the action and stacked the brass about 3'rt and 2' to front. No leading w/water quenched boolits.

The mold is an NEI aluminum and I think the # was 47, but not sure as it is in storage. Not sure if it is still a regular production mold, but if not they may be able to make u one.

The rifle (sold it) wa a Fed Ordinance M14 w/chinese parts, chrome lined bbl, nat match sights, glass bedded and trigger job.

Excellent offhand practice load at 100.

Good luck

Don



Hi Everyone not to revive an old thread,

But I'm seeking guidance so I dont re-invent the wheel, I have used the seach feature and been all over the internet and this is really the only area that seems to have any info on shooting cast bullets from a M1a...and have the weapon cycle correctly(without modifing of the gas system or shooting it single shot) and not damage it.

Heres where I am.

I have chose a "heavier" 180g Saceo #305 mold size .311, appears to be a "shorter" .30 cal bullet so I can stay off the lands(dont want to jam a lead round in and have to eject it and then dump powder all over the action as Bruce has described. Also I'm concerned about have to seat the bullet too deep and gas check below the neck of brass, its my understading this a big no no for gas checks ?? I'm willing to give up a touch of accuracy to avoid that issue.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/137367/saeco-2-cavity-bullet-mold-305-31-caliber-311-diameter-180-grain-flat-nose-gas-check

I chose the .311 sizing so I can size down to .310 if I need to or I go to .311. I was hoping to use my go powder IMR 4895, but I'm concerned I would have to drop the charge to low and leave to much empty case volume.

So for powder I think I've settled on SR-4759 since it was used in reduced 30-06 loads and should give me a nearly full case of powder at around 22-27grains which will be the max loading based on my old Lyman manual and similar shape/weight bullets.

I'm open to suggestions, I wish I could use my stock IMR4895 powder :( Also I know I will need to use gas checks, I think Hornaday make the preferred checks?? Is this correct? Also I'm be using Thompson Blue angel lube have plenty and it will be more that sufficet for 1800fps velocitys.

[Piedmont]

10 mm shooter, I think SR 4759 will be too fast burning to cycle the action and no, you won't be filling the case at those charges. Use your 4895, with or without dacron. I've not done the semiauto .308 loads but have with a 7.5 French semi which is very similar. Of the powders I played with 4895 was the most satisfactory (all this with cast loads). You run into action cycling problems with some of the faster burners and have to load to high pressures to get cycling.

The gas check below the neck bugaboo is mostly a problem at high pressures. If it obturates below the neck you can visualize how that would really mess things up. Slower burners will both operate at lower pressures (at satisfactory load levels) and be more gentle on the base due to the gradual pressure curve.

I suggest you reread this whole thread a couple of times. Follow everything Bruce does and the reasonings behind it. It made loading the 7.5 French for a semiauto easy for me. Bruce has done us all a great service with this thread.

[seabreeze133]

I have a new rifle ordered that is scheduled to be delivered NLT Tomorrow (8/27) and was planning to use my M14 load of 29.5 gr H335, WLR primer, RP brass and the NEI 152 gr boolit. Then I think I saw a Bruce comment about loads for M1 being maybe different than M14. Can't find it.

Any suggestions on load start point?

Thanks

Don

[seabreeze133]

Rifle arrived. It is a CMP 308 Special and appears to be hand built. Criterion barrel, screwed and glued upper hand guard, 5.5 # SMOOTH trigger, sights that work and are tight and repeat.

The 29.5 gr H335 load did not cycle and the group was only fair. This was with about 50 rds total fired. I am going to try H4895 and Re7 w/same boolit after a suitable breakin.

DB



I have a new rifle ordered that is scheduled to be delivered NLT Tomorrow (8/27) and was planning to use my M14 load of 29.5 gr H335, WLR primer, RP brass and the NEI 152 gr boolit. Then I think I saw a Bruce comment about loads for M1 being maybe different than M14. Can't find it.

Any suggestions on load start point?

Thanks

Don

[Wayne S]

Bruce,
Great info about loading for the M1A, thank you, Larry, great info on the X die, thank you as well.
I noticed that the Saeco 305 was the heaviest bullet used, I had hoped before reading this that I could use the 311365, 311299 or the Saeco 301 [RG-4]. After reading making a SWAG, that these bullets will require deep seating, putting the GC below the case neck because of the long nose sections might hit the rifling and hinder full case seating. Looks like the Saeco 311 and the RCBS 165 Sil. will be the bullets to start with.
Anyone have load data with either of these ??

[BruceB]

Howdy, Wayne.

I received your PM, but thought I might as well answer here.

There is some limited data early in the thread for 311284, over 200 grains, and 311467 runs around 180 IIRC.....467 was used in quite a few loads.

Good luck.

[Wayne S]

Bruce,
did the 311467 require seating so the GC was below the case neck ? What is the nose Dia. of your Saeco 305 ? mine is .302 just past the ojive. So when my M1A arrives it will be a lot of testing of different bullets to see what the seating depths will be so the GC is not below the case neck and allow for 100% chambering

Wayne

[BulletFactory]

I have been loading for this rifle a little bit, I am using x-dies as well. What are the first signs that the brass is too old to reload?

I have been also converting 30-06 brass, and I was curious to know how long those cases would last.

168gr SMK BTHP
41.5gr Hodgdon 4895
CCI Lg Rifle
OAL 2.800

When I load 30-06, I use 37gr instead. The brass is thicker, you can tell, because if you put the std. 41.5, it fills the case noticeably more.

[Wayne S]

Just picked up my M1A:bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:. Did a quick seating depth test to see if anything heavy I had would work.
311365 has 1/4"below the case neck, and 311299 the same to keep the nose from engraving to far into the lands, don't know how that will effect accuracy,or ejecting the case after firing, but the test round was HARD to eject.
Next test's will be the RCBS 165 & 200 Sil, Saeco 301 & 311.
What had your experiences with having to seat .25" below the case neck ??

[BulletFactory]

http://m14forum.com/

[Wayne S]

http://m14forum.com/

SO, what does THATsite have to do with my question about seating cast bullets below the case neck and the results from that on accuracy

[BulletFactory]

The people on that site specialize the M1A platform, the reloaders there have specific experience with that rifle. More than likely, those specific molds as well.

[Wayne S]

1. Very doubtful that anyone on that site would ever consider shooting cast in their M1A / M-14. so they wouldn't know about the undesired situation of having the base of the bullet below the case neck ,And 2. Mention trying to shoot cast bullets in an M1A /M-14 on that site and one would be ridiculed and compared to the Anti Christ

[BruceB]

Some time ago, I raised the subject of the cast bullet on the M14 Forum.

It was well-received, and a decent conversation ensued.

There is certainly very little knowledge of CBs on that site, but an active interest does exist in some quarters.

Do a search there for "cast bullet" and see what comes up. You will NOT learn anything new; as usual, THIS is the site for finding info in cast bullets!

[Wayne S]

, THIS is the site for finding info in cast bullets!
Thanks Bruce B, I'll do that as as to your comment about this site and info on cast bullets, I'm beginning to wonder, I've posed the question about the results of seating the bases .25" below the case mouth and the only response I got was basically "get a shorter bullet":groner:

[BruceB]

I reckon I missed that one....

The critical point is NOT a specific overall length.

First, I've never encountered any problems from seating the gascheck at or below the neck bottom...or even the shoulder.

Second, in the M1/M1A rifles, it IS critical to prevent the bullet from touching the rifling! That will impede the smooth chambering of the round, and very possibly increase the possibility of slam-fires, with the primer igniting before full lock-up is achieved.

So, do your own testing.....it is YOUR rifle, bullets, dies etc.

Start with the bullet seated well out in a dummy round. It should NOT chamber fully. Very gradually, seat that bullet a wee bit deeper in steps, trying the "round" in the chamber each time the bullet is seated deeper. When the action DOES close fully, see if the dummy round will fit in the magazine.... it may need a tad deeper-seating yet. Rifling contact will be shown by the bright marks on the bullet nose. Make more dummies if need be.

When you are satisfied that the cartridge WILL chamber freely with the bullet thus seated, without rifling contact, AND fit the magazine as well, MEASURE the over-all length and write it down! This routine must be followed for every different bullet design you want to try. Free chambering (without rifling contact) is CRITICAL.

All other considerations are secondary. Keeping good records (you DO keep records somewhere, I hope) will save you from repeating this routine. Remember that not all moulds with the same design numbers will drop identical bullets, so do this test anytime you have a new mould, too. (I had four 311291 moulds, and NONE of them dropped bullets that looked the same as the others!)

[Wayne S]

THANK YOU, that's what I wanted to know. I make "dummy" seating rounds from my 22 Hornet on up.
I'll let you know what my testing shows

Again
Thank you

[9.3X62AL]

Thanks Bruce B, I'll do that as as to your comment about this site and info on cast bullets, I'm beginning to wonder, I've posed the question about the results of seating the bases .25" below the case mouth and the only response I got was basically "get a shorter bullet":groner:

Not specific to the M1A, but in answer to this question generically in rifles and handguns with neck-and-shoulder case designs--I haven't seen an issue with boolit bases having seating depths into the powder space, gas checked or plain based. I can't see that it matters a bit.

[Wayne S]

The NOE 311299 seams to group better that the 311365 or the RCBS 200 Sil. but it's early in my testing, these were shot out of a "loaded" M1A equipped with a 6 x 24 X scope and shot at 100 yds. I don't have a chronograph so I don't know how fast they were going, alloy is 1.5% tin, 5% Anty, , basically 3-1 and water droped. sized .310. The load on the Rt. is 20.5 223
55238

[Mark-II]

G'day all. I'm a life long reloader and bullet caster but I'm brand new to this particular platform, being more of a single shot and lever gun guy up to this point (being a lefty and all).

So new, in fact, that I've not yet bought the rifle! I'm still doing research, reading all that I can, and seeing just what I'm about to get myself into with my first auto-loading center fire rifle.

This thread has been most enlightening, and I'm glad to see that some of my preferred powders are mentioned (H335 being one).

One thing I've not seen much info on, though, is whether or not H4895 is suitable for cast loads in this platform. Could someone enlighten me? I'm planning to load 150-170 grain GC projectiles.

One thing that threw me was the reference to .311 diameter. I guess it was just always accepted (as passed down from older members of the family) that sizing to .308 was for the 30cal stuff and sizing to .311 was for the .303 British. That now appears to be more dogmatic than factual, along with my long time use of #2 alloy and Ideal lube, so now I'm also looking for information on the groove diameter of the Norinco/Polytech M305 (without much success).

This is all a bit cart-before-the-horse, I know, but I won't be shooting again until spring, and I'd rather study/load in the winter or, in this case, at least get some small batches of development loads done up.

[Wayne S]

Check http://m14forum.com/ for your question on your M 305 ??
As to sizing, I size to the throat Dia. or .001 over not the bore Dia. because I want a tight fit in the throat to help guide the bullets into the rifling because as Bruce stated earlier you DO NOT want any resistance in chambering a round in an "auto loader.
As to powders, I'm new to cast in an M1A, but am going to leave the 10.0 of Unique, or 16.0 gn of 2400 to my Contender pistols and bolt action rifles.
In my last test with AA 223 and the 190-200 gn bullets, although the action was cycling, the cases had black smoke on the neck and shoulders, this is telling me that the pressures are low and that I can go up in the charge wt.
Not sure what a M-305 is or how it operates so do like most of us do, read, read, read, and then try something, try something else, and so on.

[Mark-II]

M-305 is the Norinco M1A clone that we get in Canada. It's something I've always imagined owning (ie a Garand-type battle rifle), but never could at the time, due to being poor and a kid (with a father who had not much time for anything but Winchester levers). Now with the gun registry gone, it's time for a fun gun, I figure.

That's the short story.

Throat diameter being slightly greater than the groove diameter, I'm guessing by your emphasis? I'll admit to having never slugged a bore or cast a chamber in my life, and I'm guessing that is going to have to change. Thanks for the link - I've chased a few google searches that ended up over there (and to here as well), but you've served to remind me that I've not used the forum search function there to find the info that google didn't have.

It's been a pleasant surprise to find out that you can indeed shoot cast in gas operated guns, despite the dogma to the contrary. I wouldn't even be considering this if I couldn't, with the price of commercial bullets being what they are.

[Wayne S]

Another range session with my M1A, Hoping to get the 311365 to group I ran a step test starting with 23.0 gn and ending at 27.0 gn of AA 2230 which I have about 15# of from a long time ago.
For comparison I also loaded the 311299 as this design shows better results that the 311365 in some of my T/C bbl's as well.
The two fliers on the 10 shot group with the 25.gn were shots # 3 & #7, These bullets were cast from a 5 cavity mold and only visually inspected. For some unknow reason 24.0 gn. didn't group ??
Both bullets were seated to within .015" of the riflings to decrease bullet jump ANDinsure resistance free chambering.-
My next outing will be with the Saeco 311, the RCBS 165 Sil. and the NOE 311-155 56338

[Wayne S]

For some reason ? I'm having trouble posting pictures of my last range session
Another range session with my M1A, Hoping to get the 311365 to group I ran a step test starting with 23.0 gn and ending at 27.0 gn of AA 2230 which I have about 15# of from a long time ago.
For comparison I also loaded the 311299 as this design shows better results that the 311365 in some of my T/C bbl's as well. bottom line here is that the 311365 hasn't shown enough promise to continue with it in this weapon.
The two fliers on the 10 shot group with the 25.gn were shots # 3 & #7, These bullets were cast from a 5 cavity mold and only visually inspected. For some unknow reason 24.0 gn. didn't group ??
Both bullets were seated to within .015" of the riflings to decrease bullet jump ANDinsure resistance free chambering.-
My next outing will be with the Saeco 311, the RCBS 165 Sil. and the NOE 311-155

[Diegokid]

Well after being gone for over a year with other commitments I'm finally back home. This thread is the most helpful I've read on cast bullets in M-14 type rifles. Has anyone considered making a reloading manuel with this info?

All my casting up until now has been for pistol bullets. When buying a mold for this rifle what is the reccomendation of choice. Will be used for plinking and killing the deer that usually step into the field to eat my garden.

I didn't see anything on loading for the 18" barrel version. Has anyone tried this yet.

Jim

[Wayne S]

Giving your requirements, killing deer & plinking I would look at the NOE 311407 and the NOE 311-155FN. Both have flat noses,The 311-155 might be a little light for killing unless you can keep your shots within 3" at 100 yds **. I think both molds are available 2 th 5 cavity molds, the 4 & 5 cavity's will let you cast a lot of bullets at one time, which is helpful when it comes to "plinking"
Other molds to consider are the Lee 170 F, the Lee 180 & 200 R, and maybe the Saeco 311 & 305 as they drop bullets .310 to .312
I wouldn't think the 18" bbl would be a problem.
** This bullet is in the next batch of cast bullets I'm planning to test.

[Larry Gibson]

My 311041HP feeds perfectly in my M1As and several M14s I've tried it in. At 177 gr (fully dressed) it is the 30 cal hunting cast bullet I judge all others by. I push it at 2100 fps out of my 12" twist M1As and it is deadly on deer to 200 yards and effective for other "purposes" to 450 - 500 yards (goes subsonic shortly there after).

Larry Gibson

[10mmShooter]

Hi Everyone,

I've been procrastinating and finally pulled the trigger, and ordered my NOE 311 155g FN mold from Al Nelson at NOE molds should be here by Friday. I was happy to find a nice .311 diameter bullet that was specifically made to fit the short neck of .308. The bullet is only .887 inches in length.(.306 of it below the crimp grove fits perfectly in the .308 case neck). That gives me COAL of 2.606 inches.

58510

I'm going to load it in my LC brass with CCI34 primers, I gonna use some of my stock IMR 4895 powder, with Hornady GCs and Thompsons Blue Angel lube

I'm curious why no one has posted results with the this powder which is go to powder for the M1a for M852. I realize its accuracy is probably reduced when using 60-70% reduced loads shooting 155g cast bullets(and that other powders may give better results), but still you would think someone would have mentioned it?

Based on what I can determine from Lyman's info 25grains should be in the 1750 fps and 30 grains on the high side should about 2000fps.

I'm hoping to find a middle ground around 1900 fps that reliably cycles my M1a .

Last concern is bullet seating, I currently us Redding Competition S-bushing dies for my 168SMK loads. The seating die is specifically designed for Sierra's Match king bullets, so what seating and expander dies you guys using for cast bullets a .311 diameter?? I know my Redding seat die is not going to work for a fat .311 cast bullet ?

......my usage is just plicking at no more than 200yds, I dont not need extreme accuracy but do need the rifle to cycle properly.

[Wayne S]

I suggest you read ALL of this, Bruce used 4895 with several cast bullets, not the heavies [195-210] I'm trying to get to shoot, not just hit the back stop but shoot sub 2 MOA 10 shot groups at 100 yds.
You should get a 30 Cal. M die, for, [a]reducing the amount of neck tension and to put a "bell" or flair in the case mouth to aid in seating and to help in not shaving lead off the the bullet when you seat..
ALL seating dies are cut for jacketed SP bullets, and will put a ring on some cast bullet noses. The less the neck tension the easier the bullet will seat, thus maybe only a slight mark.
Seat a bullet, mark the nose with a magic marker, put the round in a Mag. and release the bolt to chamber the round. Now, use the operating rod handle to eject the round, IF it extracts with no extra effort your seating depth is good, IF there is any extra effort, and the nose is marked from contacting the rifling's, then you should seat this bullet deeper.

[kweidner]

As if I haven't already said it 100 times, This is the best site on the net. I got a new to me Norinco M1a. My cousin just got it at a steal and I traded him a rangefinder for it. Loaded some lee 155 loaded over 29.5 grains h335 acww sized at .311 Felix lubed per recommendations here. First 5 shot group at 50 yards after setting sights could be covered with a quarter. No lead, functions flawless, accurate and cheap too. He was with me when I shot it yesterday. He just shook his head. Cast boolits for president!:)

[BulletFactory]

Never could get Felix to work. Wish I could, everybody seems to love it.

[ghost13]

If you want any info on loading for the M305 you should check out the http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/ site sub-forum Main Battle Rifles. If there is any information to be found regarding the M305, it is either on this site or it is referenced from this site.

[Splatter]

If you want any info on loading for the M305 you should check out the http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/ site sub-forum Main Battle Rifles. If there is any information to be found regarding the M305, it is either on this site or it is referenced from this site.

Except if you are interested in loading cast boolits, then all the info is right here.

[45 2.1]

If you want any info on loading for the M305 you should check out the http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/ site sub-forum Main Battle Rifles. If there is any information to be found regarding the M305, it is either on this site or it is referenced from this site.

It seems you have to be a Canuck to get on the forum......................... or answer the extra questions.

[Splatter]

or answer the extra questions.

Everyone has to answer the "extra" questions now. The board has had a big problem with spam and bogus accounts, when the sys-admin announced the new measures he was sorry; but unless someone suggested something better, he had to do it (and I guess no one did suggest anything better).
Seriously, the Spam was getting annoying.

[45 2.1]

Annoying or not, a whole lot of people have absolutely no idea what those answers are, especially when they're not Canadian or know enough history of the country. I guess with over 100,000 members it doesn't matter to them.

[robertbank]

Annoying or not, a whole lot of people have absolutely no idea what those answers are, especially when they're not Canadian or know enough history of the country. I guess with over 100,000 members it doesn't matter to them.

Maybe it wouldn't hurt you to step out of your county and learn something about your northern neighbours. We study American History in our schools . I suspect a good number of Americans couldn't find the capital of Canada with a flashlight and a compass.

Take Care

Bob

[45 2.1]

Maybe it wouldn't hurt you to step out of your county and learn something about your northern neighbours. Bob

I've met quite a few Canadians in this country. Snow birds who come here for 6 months a year to enjoy the warmth in our southern climes. They have NOT been very friendly people, in thought and deed, and often quite disruptive with trying to change everything like where they came from. Not the best representatives you folks could send.

[Wayne S]

THIS thread is about cast bullets in the M1A / M-14. you two take your little confrontation somewhere else.

[Gunload Master]

Make it civil or a good thread gets locked. All there is too it.

[cga]

1. Very doubtful that anyone on that site would ever consider shooting cast in their M1A / M-14. so they wouldn't know about the undesired situation of having the base of the bullet below the case neck ,And 2. Mention trying to shoot cast bullets in an M1A /M-14 on that site and one would be ridiculed and compared to the Anti Christ

I'm a member there, and you would find that there is some interest in cast bullets. Although the topic rarely comes up. The last time it came up, I sent them here.

I have used the old Ideal 311299, cast to weigh 200g. by adding tin based babbitt to wheel weights. Right now I'm using a Lyman 311332-BX (what ever the BX means) cast to weigh 180g, size at .308.5, and now .309. Gas check is slightly below the neck. Using Fed.match primers, 24.0g IMR4227, VooDoo lubed, W/W brass as a starting point. This is shot at 200 yards, at a steel plate, for something different to do during the snowy season.

Rifle is a new M1A standard, bedded, match sights, gas system shimmed, and the trigger reduced to 4.0lbs. I have not shot this one at paper yet with lead bullets.

The 311299 Ideal gets used in a S/S Savage M12-308, 03-A3 heavy barrel 30-06 and a Rem. 700 varmit syn. in .308. In the .308's I use 21.5g IMR 4227. The 30-06, I don't remember right now.

[Wayne S]

Keep an eye on NOE's classifieds, there should be a 311331 GB extra's on there soon, which is close in length and bearing surface to the 311299. WHAT size steel disks at 200 ??

[cga]

Thanks for the tip on the 311331.

18'' in dia. x 2 1/4'' thick. 100 yards short of where it's supposed to be.(heavy) Mostly let new (to shooting) people shoot the 50 BMG bolt guns at it. Plus youngsters.
The .50AP never went through it, but the steel core is fully embedded.

Match loads for the M1A hit point of aim at 200, but the lead load listed, aimed at the center, went over the top of the steel. ?? Had to use the 6 o'clock hold to hit it.

[kavemankel]

Had a norinco m14 that i used to shoot cast out of and it was quite accurate with a 165 sil load.

[10mmShooter]

These are some of my cast lead bullets with gc's for my M1a, this is the mock up bunch just to check specs and see how they function. They are from my NOE 311 -155gf FN-GC mold sized to .311. Should be a nice inexpensive alternative for plicking at 100-200 yards. They weigh 160.5 grains on average dressed out with lube and gc

61413

[Wayne S]

Nice looking bullets, lube ? be sure to report back with loads & groups

[gvanzeggelaar]

Does anyone have a problem with accuracy going south after you barrel heats up. I have a Norinco I am trying cast bullets in. Also is a powder like H322 a good choice. The reason I am asking is because I have a whole bunch of W735 surplus powder which is similar to H322.

[Wayne S]

I've got one of the "loaded" from SA, in the "tupperwear" stock. I shoot 10 shot groups, and get two or three fliers, BUT they come random in the test string.
As to the W735/H332 it is # 68 on my burn rate chart, I use AA 2230 which is # 70 on the chart. so you be the judge.
I just found a jug of H 332,after the 2230 test I'll try the H332 and see how it does with the 200 Gn. casts.
Ain't it always something

[FrankG]

Wow !! That was a long but very good read !! Just recently got a SA M1A/M14 and was wondering about cast in it . Now I have a starting point . Give me some fun time in loading room till weather warms up !

Thanks for the great info BruceB !!

[10mmShooter]

Hey Guys,

Well here as some of my mock up rounds I used these for function testing in my M1A cartridges are 2.600-2.605 in overall length as I mentioned in my previous post they weigh in at 160-161. I loaded them up in a mag and cycled them through the weapon to confirm they are dimensionally sound I was a little concerned that with LC brass my loaded rounds are .340 at the neck with the .311 size bullet which is correct for brass thats .0145 thick, I also ran them though my taper crimp die just to make sure the necks were uniform and make sure there was no bell left in brass from expanding the neck with my Lyman M die. I verified that the bullets are still snug in the neck no set back at all after chambering from a magizne(honestly they appear snugger than my 168SMK when I seat them, I think the lead my actually grab a bit tighter, than the copper jacketed 168SMKs. Im going to load up about 12 grains of Green Dot and fire them at roughly 1500fps and cycle the bolt manually just to confirm everything is good, want to make sure I have no leading at the lower velocity.

If everything checks out, I'll move up to the a real load of IMR 4895 at 28 grains and see if she cycles, otherwise I'll go to 29 grain. I really hope to I dont have to go to 30grs to get it to cycle because I'll be likely at nearly 1900 fps at that point. Oh yeah I plan to use no filler at this point. Im only going to be shooting at 150 yrds.

any pointers would be helpful...I would like know what charge weight of IMR4895 you guys are using for lead rounds??? to get proper cycling(currently I need stick with IMR 4895)

I laid them on the scanner to scan thats why the look a little funny.

62021

[suedeiceland12]

I look hard to the barrel and saw no visible leading. The outside of the suppressor can sometimes tell us a face of gun, but in this case I found it totally clean, without gray wash:-)
Springfield Locksmith (http://www.BestSpringfieldLocksmith.com)

[HABCAN]

LEE CTL160-2R, COWW w/d, GC, LLA, sized .311 crimped LEE F/C die, 24.0 grs. IMR4198 NO filler, CCI 200.......nice accurate midrange load, very mild recoil, cycles Norrie action. I'm happy.

Edited to add: some friends' rifles would not cycle with this charge, so 'we' upped it to the LEE 2.2cc scoop (27.8 grs.) and they all work dandy.

[drmellow]

Greetings,
I was hoping somebody had a good recipe for 311291 using Varget, IMR4895, Unique and #2400 for the SA M1A. I've read through the entire thread and althought some of these powders were used to different degrees of results, none of these were used with the 311291 (170 gr round nose). Thanks

[Steve Marshall]

Brand new here. I just read this thread and most of my questions were answered. Nice. I still have a few though.
# 1 Is it mandatory to use gas checks in the M1A?
# 2 Is there a place where I can find ballistic co-efficients for various cast bullets?
# 3 Is there a slow "max" re. powder in the M1A? (I have about 40 pounds of H-870?
# 4 Is there a fast "min" re. powder in the M1A? (I have about 100 pounds of SRB-118, a powder offered by Accurate about 15 years ago)

My plan is to find a load that will shoot 4 minute PBR out to 300 yards, preferably without gas checks.
For what it's worth, I spent about 3 hours browsing this site and was frankly amazed at the wealth of knowledge and patience evinced with even , to me, foolish/newby/quarrelsome questions. My only concern with this site is why it took so long for me to sign on. Even though I've cast not a single bullet, I am certain this will change in the very near future.

[HABCAN]

Welcome Steve!! Now, if you had a lot of 4227 or 4198, I could give you some very nice loads for the M1A that work in mine and friends'....with gas checks tho'. Anyway, again, WELCOME!
RCBS posts BC's in their Handbook, and LEE shows them in their catalogue illustration. I don't know about others.

[BSalty]

I want to thank BruceB for this thread. It is the reason I finally registered here after a LONG time of lurking. And 10mmShooter for dragging me back here from the M14 board with this thread and offering advice on which boolit mold to look for. I figured this was as good a place as any to make it my first post here.

[Wayne S]

Welcome Steve!! Now, if you had a lot of 4227 or 4198, I could give you some very nice loads for the M1A that work in mine and friends'....with gas checks tho'. Anyway, again, WELCOME!
RCBS posts BC's in their Handbook, and LEE shows them in their catalogue illustration. I don't know about others.
A few of Lyman designs
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?192391-Lyman-3-Manual-and-BC-s&highlight=311299

[Wayne S]

Does anyone have any info on the BC of Saeco's # 311 a TC 165 gn and the # 301 [old RG-4] another TC that goes about 195 gn. This one will require really deep seating due to it's nose being .301+

[fixit156]

First off thanks for all the info that Bruce and others have shared on this thread. I starting to load cast bullets for my Grand, M1A, and my 1903 A3.i Have made bunch of 311299 bullets. But I’m having trouble in seating them with the dies I have. The dies that I have are rcbs for 30-06 and a froster bench rest die for the 308. The bullets are getting stuck in the seater plug of the die. I had no trouble when I use hornady 168 jacketed bullets. So I think have to change the seater plug. I can’t seem to find one for this bullet. What do you people use? Thanks for any help you can give.

[10mmShooter]

fixit156 to seat my lead NOE 155g FN-GC bullets, I use a standard RCBS seating die...but swapped out the regular seater plug for the RCBS 165-SIL seat plug(which has a flat nose profile very close to the NOE FN I cast...back a few post prior to this one)

[fixit156]

Thanks 10mmShooter

[LowPE]

Greetings,
I was hoping somebody had a good recipe for 311291 using Varget, IMR4895, Unique and #2400 for the SA M1A. I've read through the entire thread and althought some of these powders were used to different degrees of results, none of these were used with the 311291 (170 gr round nose). Thanks

I have used 22.5 grains of 2400 with that weight boolit with quite good results. My go to boolit is however Saeco 315 for the M1a.

[HABCAN]

I'll pass on the tip some kind person on this site gave me: fill your seater stem with hot-glue and press your boolit nose into it. Voila! And you can always easily remove the glue plug if.........!

[gvanzeggelaar]

Well I have had some luck with IMR 4198 with a Lino 311299 @ 50 yards

24gr - Cycled, did not lock back on last round. 1" group
25gr - Full function 3/4" group
26gr - Full function 1/2" group

I waited about 30 seconds between each shot. I used regular commercial brass and no filler.

[deces]

Hey Guys,

Well here as some of my mock up rounds I used these for function testing in my M1A cartridges are 2.600-2.605 in overall length as I mentioned in my previous post they weigh in at 160-161. I loaded them up in a mag and cycled them through the weapon to confirm they are dimensionally sound I was a little concerned that with LC brass my loaded rounds are .340 at the neck with the .311 size bullet which is correct for brass thats .0145 thick, I also ran them though my taper crimp die just to make sure the necks were uniform and make sure there was no bell left in brass from expanding the neck with my Lyman M die. I verified that the bullets are still snug in the neck no set back at all after chambering from a magizne(honestly they appear snugger than my 168SMK when I seat them, I think the lead my actually grab a bit tighter, than the copper jacketed 168SMKs. Im going to load up about 12 grains of Green Dot and fire them at roughly 1500fps and cycle the bolt manually just to confirm everything is good, want to make sure I have no leading at the lower velocity.

If everything checks out, I'll move up to the a real load of IMR 4895 at 28 grains and see if she cycles, otherwise I'll go to 29 grain. I really hope to I dont have to go to 30grs to get it to cycle because I'll be likely at nearly 1900 fps at that point. Oh yeah I plan to use no filler at this point. Im only going to be shooting at 150 yrds.

any pointers would be helpful...I would like know what charge weight of IMR4895 you guys are using for lead rounds??? to get proper cycling(currently I need stick with IMR 4895)

I laid them on the scanner to scan thats why the look a little funny.

62021

The http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?products_id=255 sounds good by your description, but have you tested this boolit for results? I still can not decide what would be a good moulds to get for plinking 150ish gr. and another for hunting 175ish gr. with a 1-10 twist barrel?

[avball]

What is the maximum accurate range for these boolits? Is it conceivable to shoot NRA highpower across the course with cast, or would shooting reduced 200 yards be a more realistic goal? Even a bit more off topic, what about an AR-15?

[BruceB]

It would be more practical to expect decent results on the reduced-range matches, I think.

The longest range I tried was just over 400 yards on a 12"x 16" steel plate, with 100% hits at that range.

It would be a worthwhile project for someone, having found a good load for closer-range, to see how well that load stands up at long range. It would be foolish in the extreme to use a cast load which is inferior in accuracy to the jacketed match loads. That would amount to giving the match away.

There is a HUGE amount of information here on using cast bullets in the AR-15. Do a search.

[iwottopq]

Hello to all.
Someone have used the Lovex S-060-02 in the M1A or M14 with 160 or 200 grs cast boolits???
Thanks in advance.
Ciao
Nino

[filthygovmploye]

not really sure what you are asking nino, but my buddy at work turned me onto this site: castpics.net type 308 win inot the search box. it goes up to 195 gr on some lyman, but not up to 200 like lee does

[iwottopq]

Hello to all.
Thanks filthygovmploye for your help and sorry for my bad english, it isnt my language.
Ciao
Nino

[ammohead]

I finally took the plunge and loaded up ten NOE 311466 boolits this weekend. It was not a very scientific effort, but came out rewarding for a first effort. I used 23.5 gr of reloader 7,WLR primers and LC brass. I seated to 2.780" with the slightest of crimp so as not to crush the shoulder. I got no stuck boolits that I am aware of, but didn't go looking for them either.

I put eight on paper at 50 yds with 6 ending up in a nice round 1.6ish" group with two just high and left close to each other but not the rest. Opened the group up to just under 3". The other two I shot at a couple of 200 yard 8" swinging plates. I missed on the first shot and knocked the plate free on the second. Off the bench, Springfield issue sights and my rapidly aging eyes. I put a 4 power weaver on the old girl last night because this shows promise and deserves a proper wringing out.

The load was stout enough to work the action to the point of ejecting the fired case. But it didn't have enough dodo to pick up the next round. All the cases ended up just in front of the bench, a little to the right.

Mr B, thank you for the headstart as well as some of the other posters info. I hope Reno is suiting you well and hope to find an excuse to run into you soon.

ammohead

[BruceB]

These are very promising results for the first "go". Far better to have a load that's a tad too light, as opposed to some hellbinder that leads everything or wrecks brass. My smallest group came with the 180-grain 311467 and H4831, of all things... 0.60" for TEN rounds at 50 yards.

So... you mounted a scope? It is to wince.... I've tried several M1As with scopes, and I just CAN'T get comfortable with the idea. It certainly helps with the accuracy and load development, but all my shooting in this campaign was with the issue iron sights..."like God and Springfield intended". Nice rifles, aren't they?

I won't be living in Reno for some time yet, but after the financial side gets organized and a suitable apartment is located, I'll be ensconced in my new digs and happy to have company.

It's going to be a major lifestyle change, for sure, especially having to cook for myself. Visitors will be encouraged to stop by KFC or In-And-Out en route to my "house".

I'm glad to see you wringing-out that rifle with cast loads.

[ammohead]

Dug out my scribble sheet from the load above. I only chronoed 6 of the 10 shots ( I told you it wasn't very scientific). They averaged 1869.3333 with an extreme spread of 11. Tonight I sat at the bench and loaded 10 each of 24.0, 24.5, 25.0, and 25.5 gr of RL-7. Going to Ely this weekend to photograph the aspens turning color so probably won't happen real soon.

[Mark-II]

I should have checked here before loading with 2400, as I stopped at 19 grains. The groups were opening up, though, and the action didn't cycle completely, so I wrote it off as being, perhaps, too fast a powder.

I had encouraging results with RL7. I'm working with the RCBS 165-sil, sized to .311 (the sizer barely touches it, though, so it's probably more like .310) cast of No2 alloy, seated clear of the lands. 26 grains gave me about an inch group at 60m with one shot out of 5 nowhere to be found. 27 grains was rubbish, or maybe it was just me. 28 grains was magic with all 5 shots under 2 inches, which is better than I do with the Matchking-and-4895 load.

This is the Norinco M-305 full length rifle.

I'm going to play with H335 next, since I have a few pounds of it, and maybe some 5744 and 4895. Don't really want to like 5744, however, since its a marginally available, bloody expensive powder where I'm at.

[Wayne S]

The http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?products_id=255 sounds good by your description, but have you tested this boolit for results? I still can not decide what would be a good moulds to get for plinking 150ish gr. and another for hunting 175ish gr. with a 1-10 twist barrel? Deces, My results with the NOE 30-155 weren't nearly as good as with the NOE 311299. My M1A is the same "loaded"model as Bruce B used, SAI lists the twist as 1-11. Mine is equipped with a 6 x 24 Vortex scope to element some of the problems with very old eyes.
As to having two molds, my results show the heavier [200 gn.] use less powder to fully function even on plinking loads, and would probably prove to be a better hunting bullet, I said probably because I no longer hunt.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

:DGreat subject with lots of info and field testing. I say sticky also. Thanks to all who have taken time to contribute

[Mark-II]

I did a bit of work on my rifle. I replaced the rubbish Chinese flash hider and front sight with an SA part and match front blade. I also added another shim to the gas system, making it hammer tight. Cleaned and greased - plenty of carbon removed with the 15 and P drills but no hint of lead anywhere (despite a gunsmith telling me I'd blow up the gun shooting cast in it).

Anyway. The usual RCBS 165-sil, crimped in front of the first driving band, loaded into IVI brass, #34 primers and bullets only visually inspected for obvious minor casting defects - I'm not going for scientific. I just want an accurate plinker.

Retested 26-28 grains RL7. Shooting at 65m, -6 Celsius, no wind. 26 grains held to about an inch and a half for 4, vertical string, with the 5th an inch and a half to the left. 27 grains gave me 4 holes strung in an inch, almost touching, and a 5th an inch to the side. Groups began to open with 28grains.

I'm going to load up a bunch at 26.5 next and check for consistency.

[splotch]

I have been thinking about the shooters who think that cast could ruin a M1 or M14 - While I personally don't believe that cast bullets wont hurt the rifles - It got me to thinking about impulse - I know that the port pressures and such are not as great with cast but could the impulse force be greater - Impulse being = Force avg * the change of time which is also = mass * change of velocity . In other words could the average impact force be greater with cast bullets or some how different enough to cause a problem? Since I don't know the velocity of the gasses or their mass I can only speculate. Does slower burning or faster burning powders have different velocities when ignited? I know there is a lot of talk about velocities of different powders (i.e. slow burning or fast) having different affects on bullet upset and case blow by. Any body familiar with the Physics of the problem?

[samwithacolt]

Just want to express my thanks to all you guys for your input. I've been lurking on this thread and finally fired ten rounds through my Norinco M305 today.
I have a Lee .312 165 mold, which is the most versatile mold I have. It works great for my SKS and in my wife's .30-30(sized to .309)
I sized and GC'd some boolits at .311 and sat them on 25 gr of Rel 7 in Rem .308 cases. All shots went into about 4" at 50 yds with enough oomph to cycle the bolt and cock the hammer, but not pick up the next round. I am excited to get out over the holidays and try working up 1/2 gr at a time till I get the sweet spot.
I just did'nt like spending the money on J bullets and 45 grains of Rel 15, so this gun hardly ever saw daylight. My thanks again for you efforts.

[ammohead]

BruceB,

Wince no longer. I removed the scope as it did not seem to improve things one bit. For Xmas I bought a globe front sight for the old girl. Haven't tried it yet, maybe tomorrow, but they work wonders on the other rifles I have put them on.

[jr86]

Just Wanna thank BruceB for sharing years of research. It's been invaluable to me.

Thanks
Jeremy

[ammohead]

Went out yesterday with NOE 155 FN and 30, 31, 32 gr of surplus imr 4895 from Jeff Barlett. Previously I was doing no better than 3-5 inches at 50 yards. But yesterday was a 300% improvement with groups in the 2" class. Remove 1 or 2 strayers and a couple of groups were close to 1".

I made changes to how the rifle sits on the bags, seriously lubed the receiver/bolt races with lubriplate. Used lubriplate on the cam roller and mating surfaces, oiled the trigger group and left the gas operating system dry as speced. The action was a lot slicker than I had seen it before. I also opened the aperature on the rear sight just a tad to allow a nice halo around the front globe sight that I installed. Too many changes at once to say for sure what made the difference. But I am a happier camper and can breathe a little easier about whether or not I will ever find the right load. I am going to go back over some of the older loads that had way too many strays from the center group and give them another chance after the changes.

Too much fun.

[ammohead]

Finally some success.
99349

The idea was...find a reasonably accurate load from my M1A that I can use for practice and fun. Best case scenario would be using a surplus (read cheap) powder that I had plenty of. I tried imr7383 and haven't as yet had any luck. So I thought I would try WC846 seeing that I have 3 8lb jugs. Viola. The circled holes were the first five rounds shot in the string. I was way tempted to stop right there, but BruceB started this adventure using 10 round groups and I decided to stick with the norm for this thread. The first 5 measured .540" center to center with 9 out of 10 grouping into 1.4". The one shot out of group was called upon firing when my left hand grip raised the forearm off the bags on recoil.

I haven't chronoed the load yet but I will be loading up some bracket loads of around .3 grain increases and will chrono those and post results sometime soon.

Obviously some credit must be given the powder/boolit combination, but I have been having some improvements in my bench technique as well. I moved the front bag way back behind the sling hardware to eliminate any interaction with the bag on recoil. When I don't pay attention to this after every shot the grouping goes south immediately. To say that I am jazzed about the potential is an understatement. More results to come.

[sdcitizen]

Tried some loads with RP-13 (1680 burn rate). As expected, couldn't get the action to cycle the M1A reliably all the way to 2400 fps, where primers started to look like normal jacketed loads. This was with the Lee 155 gr boolit. Same boolit with 32.5 of H335 is a winner though.

[Wayne S]

"ammohead"
How did you find that the WC 846 as for as burning, clean or dirty ? Did the 30 Gn. generate enough pressure to seal the case to the chamber or were your fired cases "dirty" around the neck / shoulder area?

[JackQuest]

My 2 cents worth - using a charge of 36.0 grains WC844 powder and Lyman 311291 seated 2.60" OAL, gas check, lube, sized .309 in Star and cast up from a high copper alloy I was finally able to get to the range and at least see if the load functioned. Only able to get 10 rounds off, but action cycled correctly, fed well, ejected with less of the "toss to the wind" effect that other (jacketed) loads do. The alloy I'm using casts about 181 grains. Next time hope to get on paper and after that will seat to 2.70" OAL for better fit in magazines. Used 5 shot magazine for test.
Sorry I don't have more and better information at this time. Too many other projects diverting my efforts these days.

[cbrick]

Today I checked one more thing off the bucket list. Since the 60's when I was a guest at uncles Camp Pendleton qualifying with the M-14 I've wanted one and never did get roundtoit. Today I picked up an M1A and started reading this thread. I haven't even priced factory ammo much less bought any in years but today I looked at 308's for the brass . . . Holy Mother of God are people really paying that? No wonder I handload and cast.

I'm gonna start with N-140 and see where it starts to reliably cycle the action and where it shoots. For boolits I have over 30 molds in 30 caliber so there must be something that'll work. Gonna be interesting.

Rick

[country gent]

WHich one did you get? Rack grade, match, super match, Springfield armory, Fulton Armory, Smith enterprises, Armscor? They are a great rifle and when fully tuned very accurate tools. I used them for years in NRA service rifle and CMP/DCM leg matches. First rifle I shot past 200 yds was a M1A.

[cbrick]

It's the Springfield M1A Standard, 22", Green plastic stock with rubber butt plate, peep adj sights.

Rick