7.62x51 NATO (.308 WCF) in the Springfield M1A

[cbrick]

Read through this entire thread & much of it a couple times, great info by BruceB and an outstanding write up by Larry on the X dies. I have the X dies and the RCBS AR Series taper crimp dies ordered, I ordered the small base F/L sizer based on fired brass F/L sized with my regular RCBS 308 F/L die will not chamber without really slamming the bolt closed.

Great thread and many thanks to BruceB and all that have contributed to it.

Rick

[geargnasher]

Right behind ya, Rick. Load of brass in the tumbler as I type this, and a new mould is in the mail. I wish that rubber butt plate would come off without tools so I could store the gas plug/block wrenches, chamber brush, etc. in there. This stock may not stay on there for long, already sniffing around Boyd's for a walnut one and handguard.

Thinking of starting out with Reloder 7, what are you using?

Gear

[cbrick]

Gear, take a look at the entrance to your chamber. I loaded up some dummy rounds with 4 different bullets to check if they would cycle, there is a ridge on mine that puts a severe crease into the shoulder as it's chambering. That was from cycling the action by hand not firing it. 12 dummy rounds and 12 ruined cases. From all appearances it's made that way on purpose, only thing I can think of is to prevent handloading. Firing it would be a much harder action than cycling it by hand and it could be severe enough to rupture the case. Rick is mightily bummed. Was going to load for it today and shoot tomorrow, didn't load, too bummed out.

I think I have discovered why the guy sold it at what should have been a decent price with so few rounds through it. Only fix I can think of is to re-barrel it.

Was gonna load with N-140.

I was gonna look for wood for mine too, now don't know what I'll do.

Rick

[tomme boy]

Call Springfield. It should not be that way.

[cbrick]

Call Springfield. It should not be that way.

Already looked up their customer service number. It's Sunday so I have to wait till morning. I didn't buy it new but it's only four months old, can't hardly tell it's been fired. Now I know why.

http://www.springfield-armory.com/customer-service/

Rick

[geargnasher]

Hmm. That little ridge between the feed ramps cut into the back of the barrel does leave a slight ding in the shoulder, but nothing that I'd consider a worry. The edge of the chamber on mine is pretty sharp, too.

Check the underside of the front edge of the feed lips on your magazine, I wonder if they don't have a bad stamp-cutting burr on the underside that snags the rim of the case just as it's about to pop free and lets the bolt face jam the shoulder down into that point between the feed ramps. There's a bad jam-up of things right then, the bolt banging the case free of the feed lip and the shoulder of the case glancing off of the edge of the chamber all at the same time. Might debur the underside of the feed lips and see if that doesn't help. I already deburred the underside of the bullet nose guiding tabs of one of my magazines because they were shaving the hell out of my bullet noses as the bolt stroked back and raked each cartridge to the back of the magazine and popped the nose up and free of the guide. If ever there was a candidate for polymer-tipped ammo, these rifles are it for sure, they're so crude and rough and loaded with sharp edges it's a wonder they function at all, but they have a stellar track record for semi-auto reliability.

If your problem isn't strictly related to the magazines, I wonder if a little judicious polish work with a dowel rod and emery paper on the edge of the chamber might do the trick?

Gear

[geargnasher]

Also, you ARE knocking that shoulder all the way back in your sizing, die, right?

Gear

[cbrick]

Also, you ARE knocking that shoulder all the way back in your sizing, die, right? Gear

Thanks for the tips Gear. Brand new X die adjusted as RCBS recommends with the cam over, can't set it down any further.

I'll take another/closer look at the magazines. I've got four but confess I didn't think it was the problem and only used one to check different nose shapes for cycling/feeding. Nose shape isn't the culprit, same crease on all the brass regardless four completely different noses.

I'll look at everything and do some more head scratching before I call Springfield. If ya have any more ideas I'm all ears.

Rick

EDIT to add: The brass I used was already decapped and I took the decapping rod out of the die so as not to drag the expansion button up through the neck and pull the shoulder up. I used an "M" die to expand and flare.

[country gent]

Have you tried any factory loads to see if the issue happens with them also. We always polished M14 mags with green scratch pads or steel wool ( some even buffed lightly with a medium rouge) to smooth up lips and outsides for easier removal and insertion. The feed lips reduced drap and nose dropping gown under pressure.

[cbrick]

Have you tried any factory loads to see if the issue happens with them also. We always polished M14 mags with green scratch pads or steel wool ( some even buffed lightly with a medium rouge) to smooth up lips and outsides for easier removal and insertion. The feed lips reduced drap and nose dropping gown under pressure.

I gotta admit that "factory loads" sounds like finger nails on a blackboard but I may try that suggestion. First I'll take a much closer look at the mags and see whatever I can see there. Hate to modify the rifle if not needed, the feed ramp is there for a reason, just not to ruin brass.

Rick

[geargnasher]

Check out M14 dot com, there's a whole list of "health checks" in a sticky thread that address the common problems and fixes. Seems that jams caused by cartridges hanging on the shoulder before the rim clears the magazine feed lips are common and usually related to not pushing the shoulder back far enough on reloads. We're used to sizing just enough to freely chamber, but apparently the spec between feed lip and barrel is set off of the SAAMI minimum. I need to read up on how to properly grease one myself, apparently oil is a no-no on the bolt and op rod raceways and grease is necessary for proper function.

Gear

[BruceB]

As stated much earlier on this thread, every single round is checked with a Wilson Cartridge Gauge as the final step in my loading process for auto-loading firearms.

My own M1A has now fired over 7000 rounds -mostly with cast bullets- and shows no problems whatever.

On the subject of lubrication, there's certainly nothing wrong with doing it by the book.

However, over the years my M1As and M-14s have run quite happily with whatever I happened to have on hand.... and in the Arctic cold of the Far North they functioned perfectly down to forty-below-zero with no lube whatever.... religiously cleaned to a BONE-DRY condition. I wouldn't want to fire hundreds of rounds through the rifle with no lubrication, but for the limited number needed then, it presented no difficulty or undue wear.

[geargnasher]

Hi, Bruce, thanks for weighing in!

I remember about you using the Wilson gauge, and also four or five different bullets with nary a jam.....there indeed seems to be a correlation there.

Did you have the issues with gauged case shoulders that Rick is describing?

Also, a newbie question, after putting cartridges in the magazines, do you tap them all the way forward so that the bullet tips contact the front wall, as they will under recoil?

Gear

[cbrick]

Ok, I've loaded many tens of thousands of rounds in revolvers, specialty pistols, single shot rifles, lever guns, bolt guns, 1911's but nary a round in an AR. I have little doubt that this will be only the very first of a lengthy learning curve.

So what I have learned so far is magazines, the dang things are important. I had checked the cycling with the 10 round mag, I also have two 20 round and a 5 round mag. All 12 pieces of brass cycled with the 10 round are creased enough I'll scrap them. I used one of the 20 round mags and cycled the same 4 different bullets (12 rounds, three each). Much improved results, the dinging the shoulders was still there but not nearly as severe. I held the two mags together and couldn't really see a difference so I got out the magnifying glass (an old guy tool for you whipper snappers) and looked close. The front of the lips on the 10 round mag are angled slightly down which would hold the front of the cartridge down as the feed ramps are trying to raise it causing the shoulder of the case to slam into the feed ramp instead of riding up over it into the chamber.

I'll tweek on them a bit more to see if it can be improved any and still feed properly. Right now though I'm gonna load up a few and go shoot my new rifle. :mrgreen:

Question for those familiar with the Springfield M1A. All four mags I have came with the rifle, according to the Springfield web site the rifle comes with one 10 round mag. None of the mags have any type of marking on them to indicate the manufacturer, does the Springfield mag have a Springfield stamp on them? These could all be aftermarket mags, could all be Springfield, dunno.

Thanks Bruce, I'll very soon be looking into getting the Wilson Cartridge Gauge per your recommendation.

Thanks Gear, was you that got me thinking mags and not rifle.

Let the learning begin, anyone with further suggestions I'm all ears.

Rick

[BruceB]

Hi, Bruce, thanks for weighing in!

I remember about you using the Wilson gauge, and also four or five different bullets with nary a jam.....there indeed seems to be a correlation there.

Did you have the issues with gauged case shoulders that Rick is describing?

>>>> No, the whole procedure is boringly simple.... no problems at all in my rifle. I have an "X" die but have yet to use it much. Standard RCBS .308 dies work fine, as do their .308 small-base dies.

Also, a newbie question, after putting cartridges in the magazines, do you tap them all the way forward so that the bullet tips contact the front wall, as they will under recoil?

>>>>>No. I just load 'em up and stuff them into the rifle. Now that I think about it, I realize that I ensure the rounds are seated all the way BACK in the mags.... but the first round fired will move the whole stack forward under recoil.

I traded off the 10-round mag that came with the rifle; a friend likes that size and I don't.

Right now I have some Taiwanese Type 57 mags (bought new from Midway), some Checkmate Industries 20-rounders (they supply current US military needs for M14 magazines) and some original US GI M14 mags as well. The Type 57s were made on US machinery that we sold to Taiwan way back when.

All these mags work perfectly. I don't recall ever disassembling an M-14 mag, but that's mostly because of the environments in which I lived. Dirt etc was just not a problem. Certainly, smoothing up the internals won't hurt. Be careful about changing feed angles etc.

Gear

Hope all this helps.

[country gent]

CBrick one thing I noticed shooting High power was evident in the rapids when shooting dedicated mags that I could never "see" the cause of. Occasionally you would get a pair of mags that 2 rounds and then the 8 didnt print to the same group, not alot but enough to cost points in the match. A few friends and I went together and bought a bunch of GI mags got together and shot 300 yd rapid fires 2 and 2 sorting mags and finding the ones that printed to the same or very close to each other. I ended up with 8 or so that all printed the same these were then IDed with mag set number and 2 or 8 according to order in the string. Mags make a big diffrence and when you get good ones cherish them and care for them. Your unmarked may be USGI surpluss. There were some forieghn coppies that had the lactch block formed in the sheet metal a few years ago. The better have the latch block spot welded on, the base plates are removeable and the mags can easily be disasselbled and cleaned or adjusted. Also Look at the sring guide in the op rod recoil spring, the nose on the back iss the front catch for the mags. If top edge is worn or low it may be letting the mag sit down a little more than normal. One of the NM mods was making that stamping a round rod the did 2 things to improve function and feeding. The spring op rod ran smoother with out the sharp corners the fit of the round rod could actually be closer. The nose was easier to rock out of mag cutout, and the rod was held in a more consistent position to lock the mags in the same place. I believe a company names Brooksfield made these op rods up years ago. Thiers were tin coated. I made mine up bu cutting the ends of standard rods and milling a slot in correct sized drill rod and welding together, a chamvered end on the front and nice polish . The steel liner positions the mag side to side the latch postions front to back and the latch and nose position hieght front and back. If the nose points top surfave is low or sagging the round isnt in quite the right orientation. I never see an mark on brass from either of my M1As chambering or extracting.

[cbrick]

Thanks Country, these mags have the latch block spot welded on. Just thought it odd that there is no name or identification of any kind. Nothing worn on this rifle or the mags, only a couple of hundred rounds total through it.

While the rifle functions perfectly I am a bit perplexed now. When I used the 10 round mag in the shop to hand cycle & check for feeding I got bad creases on the case shoulder. When I did the same with the 20 round mag it was still there and in the same place but much less severe. Today I took the rifle out and shot it using the same 20 round mag . . . Not a mark on the case shoulder in 30 rounds. Thinking it would be worse when shooting when I got home I loaded up more dummy rounds and hand cycled them, made the same ding in the case shoulder it had before but not when firing it??? Hhmmm . . . Ok, it is what it is. Guess I should shoot with the 10 round mag and see what it does while shooting.

BruceB is correct in recommending the CCI military primer #34 with the harder/thicker cups. Fired 30 rounds today and used Fed 210 primer, I have the #34 ordered but not here yet. Had 1 double tap, it was in battery with the bolt fully locked and no harm no foul except it's an eye opener. Won't load any more for the M1A until the #34 primers get here.

Tried grouping at 100 and once again I had to admit that I cannot see a 100 yard target nearly well enough to shoot groups with open sights. Big bummer. I guess there is a scope in this rifles future. I loaded 311365 200 gr with N-140 at 2 gr under Viht starting load for 190 gr jacketed, not good even for how poorly I was seeing the target. I also loaded the NOE XCB 165 gr bullet with N-140 at 2 gr under Viht load data for a 165 gr jacketed, groups were far better with this bullet, good enough to pursue further. All bullets today were air cooled CWW +2% Sn.

Only 30 rounds fired today but I used the bore scope to dispel another old wives tale. Shinning an LED light directly into the gas port and looking at it under 25X magnification showed it is perfectly clean, no lead and no lube fouling in the gas port.

Gonna cast up several different bullets, prep some brass, ponder a scope & mount and wait for the right primers to get here.

Rick

[country gent]

cycling when the rifle is fired is much diffrent than by hand. Under firing the action hits the stop harder and forward faster leaving less time for the round to drop droop or move around. Recoil also plays a part in this. My pre 64 model 70 match rifle in rapids is a good point gripping the bold handle and working the bolt slowly it will occassionally jam. lift the bolt with 2 fingers under it fast and hard closing it with the thumb only hard and fast it never jams and rapid groups are much better. Also make sure your rounds are seated all the wau back in the mag. I always tapped thebacks on my leg to ensure this.My last rebarrel was a krieger 1-12 with no rough chamber cut. A reamer was ground by Dave Manso to put 16655 sierra palma bullets touching from .030 under mag length. That barrel is a real shooter, but the special throat is a short lived proposition as it wears it gets longer. What you might try for grins and giggles is find some .010-.012 soft shim stock and bend a small u up to fit inside the cutout on the mags and super glue this in the cut out. Will raise the front of the mag slightly allowing you to see if it helps.

[popper]

Try micing the distance between the lips on mags that work vs ones that don't. Had to bend the lips on my AR10 mags to make them work. Keeps them from diving. Actually made them ~20 thous. wider at the front.

[xtphreak]

Look at a Bassett Machine mount
Bassettmachine.com
Simple, comes with a wrench for REPEATABLE MOUNTING TORQUE
Look around at reviews on some of the expensive ones
I likes my Bassett

[sdcitizen]

Factory Springfield magazines have the Springfield Armory logo stamped on the floorplate. They are manufactured by Check Mate Industries for Springfield. Good magazines for sure, but double the money of the exact same mag that is stamped CMI. I have never experienced any dent or dimple on the shoulder of loaded rounds that have gone into battery and ejected by hand, there is a small mark to be sure now that I look, but certainly no dent. Its a loaded M1A.

[geargnasher]

Just an update, I finally got to shoot some cast through my Springfield this past weekend and was quite surprised at how well it did. Test loads were 30 grains of IMR 4320 and bullets were some Lee group buy 311041 copy cast and well-aged from air-cooled clip-on WW plus 2% tin and sized .311". Fired three of those and added two more grains to make ejection and lock more reliable. Took it to the range and shot several 5-shot groups under 2" at 100 yards just resting the rifle across my range bag and trying not to shiver/shake in the 25 mph freezing headwind. I was shooting mostly to check function and brass damage, so the groups were a bonus, will do more of these for sure to test accuracy and will advance the powder charge incrementally as well. Function was good except for the cases whose shoulders were so badly caved-in from the feeding process that the bolt wouldn't lock without a little "forward assist", this happened only with one magazine and only from rounds fed from the left-side column, apparently cartridges from that column are hitting the top of the forward vee-groove in the side of the magazine as they are pushed forward by the bolt and getting severely gouged from the shoulder up into the body a bit, deforming the shoulder enough that it won't quite go home under power.....glad they didn't slam-fire!! The feed lips on that magazine look identical to the other three I have, can't figure out why the shoulders are hitting on this one. Cases were SS tumbled and spotless going in, coming out they look like they were dumped in a gravel parking lot and driven over with a tank: Rims dinged badly, multiple deep scrapes/scratches, and some wrinkles/dents remaining in the shoulders even after firing. These cases MIGHT still be reloadable but will require file work on the extractor grooves to even fit in a shellholder again. NOT happy about that, will shoot some factory ammunition through it to compare case damage. I have two people telling me that from mild to full-house loads their M1As don't tear up the brass and they load it multiple times, I'd sure like to see that because this machine is only fit to feed a scrap bucket so far. Yes, I disassembled, cleaned, de-nibbed, and lubricated the magazines and the rifle has been stripped, cleaned, and lubed per "De Manuel".

But still, somehow, it shot some very respectable groups for my first time loading for it with some old scrap bullets and under the freezing/windy conditions.

Bruce, methinks your WDWW alloy is too hard for the light charges of 4320 and may be why it didn't hold very good groups for you.

Gear

[BruceB]

First, you can add me to the pair of gents whose rifles don't damage the brass. I get many reloadings with each case.

I do find that when a loaded round fails to seat completely in a Wilson cartridge gauge, it's almost always a minor burr on the case rim. This is doubtless caused by the extractor, when it snaps over the rim on chambering a round. A needle file makes short and easy work of such burrs. (A cartridge gauge is used on every single round I load for my semi-autos.)

Re: 4320: I had so many candidate powders and bullets that I really didn't do exhaustive work with details like varying alloy hardness. I simply took the quick-and-easy route by minimizing the number of variables. Hence, ALL the bullets in that looooong effort were water-dropped WW, and all were sized at .311".

My major purpose lay in developing load data that other riflemen could use to develop good recipes for their own rifles.

I'll be very interested to see what you and others might discover as we continue to explore the whole subject of the M1A with cast loads. Medical factors will now keep me on the sidelines, but I'll sure be cheering y'all onward!

Your initial results don't surprise me a bit, and you ALREADY have a functional and useful load for plinking and practice. From here on in, it's fine-tuning.

Ain't it great?

[cbrick]

No torn up brass with mine while shooting, did ding up shoulders fairly bad when cycling by hand with a different mag though. No such problem while shooting. The only dings in the brass after shooting was from hitting the ground and nothing serious, some very minor dings on the case head I assume from the extractor. I also used air cooled CWW +2% Sn largely because I already had a 40 pound pot of it ready to use. Bullet was the 165 Gr XCB. I got nothing to report on groups yet because it's more obvious than ever that I can no longer use open sights, there is a scope in this rifles future sadly. The groups it did shoot weren't all that bad considering how poorly I saw the sights/target. I used powder in the same burn rate. Varget, 4320 and N-140 are all about the same burn rate. Primer was Fed 210, a standard large rifle primer. Cycling was flawless.

I have ordered and received per Bruce's advice both the Wilson case gage and the CCI #34 primers. Haven't loaded any more, need to order a scope mount before I can do much. I am curious about the difference in primers with #34 being a mag primer. The load is light enough pressure shouldn't be a problem but it could effect burn rate & grouping.

Rick

[BruceB]

[QUOTE=cbrick;3080441]No torn up brass with mine while shooting, did ding up shoulders fairly bad when cycling by hand with a different mag though.QUOTE

I'm wondering if the cases are still being dinged BEFORE firing, and then getting the dings ironed-out by the pressure in the chamber when the round fires.

With regard to scope mounts, which have been a considerable problem with the M1A, I'm hearing VERY good things about the Bassett mount. It sells for (I think) a tad less than $100..... when we have over a grand tied-up in the rifle alone, that's tempting to me. (ME, who once swore that there would never be a glass sight on my M1A... funny how aging eyes change our perspectives!)

[cbrick]

Ok, based on recommendations from Bruce and xtphreak I ordered the Bassett Picatinny original mount which now sells for $149.50 ($159 with shipping). The original is a bit higher and says open sights can be used. Springfield now wants $300 for the steel mount, before Christmas it was $200.

I once swore that I would have glass on nothing but . . . Aging and 30 years with diabetes might have combined to change my "outlook" (pun intended :mrgreen:). I now have glass or a red dot on everything I shoot, revolvers and rifles.

Rick

[cbrick]

I'm wondering if the cases are still being dinged BEFORE firing, and then getting the dings ironed-out by the pressure in the chamber when the round fires.

Possible of course but when cycling the action by hand it wasn't just a ding in the shoulder, it was also a crease like it tried to cut the brass. No sign of that with fired brass. Someone else suggested that hand cycling would do that while it doesn't happen when firing. AR's are a new handloading experience for me so it's something I'll have to keep an eye on. Also when shooting I used a 20 round magazine and when hand cycling I used the 10 round. Need to test the 10 round when shooting.

Rick

[BruceB]

[QUOTE=cbrick;3080494] I ordered the Bassett Picatinny original mount which now sells for $149.50 ($159 with shipping).

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dang.... shows how badly out-of-date *I* am!


QUOTE " Aging and 30 years with diabetes might have combined to change my "outlook" (pun intended :mrgreen:).QUOTE]

>>>>>> Thirty years with diabetes. Egad. I was diagnosed in April '98, and since then have lost my left leg and the front third of my right foot to the disease. Not fun, not fun at all.

My eyesight has certainly diminished, but my handguns are still used with iron sights only. That may have to change, too. Garand, Krags and Lee Enfields are still "sort of" usable with irons, but the writing is on the wall.

The M1A does OK with irons, but here again the train is leaving the station.

Any particular recommendations for scopes to withstand the slam-bang of autoloading rifles?

P.S.: Hand-cycling rounds into my M1A doesn't mark or dent them in any way. I have about four different types of magazines, and this holds true with all of them.

[Lindenwood]

Hello all. Long time lurker, and even donated to the site a while back beceuase it seemed every other time I went a'Googling for an answer about reloading or casting or unique bullets I found it on this site.

Anyways, I have been through this thread a couple times. I have a DPMS LR308 and experimented with some handloads of LVR powder**. After reading this thread, I figured Id start with some 150gr FMJBTs (only cheap bullets I have around right now) over 41gr down to 35gr, and they all cycled just fine. The 35gr loads ran 1989fps with an ES of 103. I have always been a curious handloader but largely was motivated to pursue this for my wife, who enjoys shooting this rifle for groups, but naturally as a new shooter isn't a fan of the recoil (even with a limbsaver). I am going to try some 26-30gr loads using dacron next to see how those function. I also have another 8lbs of 4320 that I will compare later.

On another note, I worked up to 20gr of Universal which I would certainly consider on the maximum end. Primers looked about like other full-power loads and extraction wasn't noticably harder than with lighter charges, but I will probably settle on 19gr for the future. 18gr averaged 1828fps with an ES of 38fps over 5 rounds. The 20gr load averaged 1962fps with an ES of only 7, and 4 rounds went into 1.05" at 100 yards, prone, with an unmagnified optic (the first of 5 was just shot into the berm before I decided to see how they grouped). The report was very quiet, roughly like a .44 special from a big revolver (a "boof"-like report with minimal crack). If I had a bolt-action that allowed my wife to manually cycle them without sitting up (from prone), Id probably shoot a **** ton of these hah. But, manually cycling the AR is kindof a pair when prone and with the promising results I had using rifle powders that will actually cycle it and get about the same recoil I don't really need to bother with pistol powders much.


**So far it has been similar to BLC2 in performance though I havent pushed it very hard--44gr under a 168gr AMax loaded to 2.805 got me about 2393fps with a 71fps ES, with only mild primer deformation. The moderate primer appearance and high ES suggest it is indeed toward the lower end of typical loadings. Worked up to 46gr before I got my replacement chronograph (didn't notice any change in accuracy) but the primers still looked noticably less flat than even the factory 7.62 loads I started with.

Thanks a bunch for doing all this work, Bruce! Guys like you make this by far the best reloading and "ammo tinkering" forum on the web.

*edit*

Any if anyone is curious, I had to put an adjustable gas block on my 308 carbine to keep it from denting brass on the shell deflector. I did open it up all the way before testing the reduced loads.

And as far as optics go, I run irons on handguns, but my eyesight is pretty terrible. The 1x prismatic optic has been the best of all worlds for me as far as fast close-range shooting while maintaining some degree of precision. It is a 3moa dot etched onto the glass. I can see some of the blur due to my astigmatism, but by comparison a red dot looks like a pair of comets flying through my scope :P .

[tomme boy]

Cbrick, look into the Russian LR primers. Their mag primers are not mag like our are. Mag to them means thicker cups. Thats the way it they used to be anyway. Might be worth checking into

[cbrick]

Thanks Tomme, I can look into that but right now I have a few thousand #34's to wring out. I suspect based on Bruce's testing using them they will be fine, just need to shoot & find out.

Rick

[winelover]

I've been following this thread for quite a while. It got me interested in loading cast for my Armalite AR-10 carbine. I have put thousands of rounds through it. I have settled on heat treating all my boolits. Even the light loadings, show a preference for harder boolits. I tested air cooled and water dropped versions of my alloy, an approximation of WW's.

I normally use CCI 200 large rifle primers but occasionally go to CCI 250 magnums. With AA4350, I am getting slightly better groups with the magnum primers. So Gear, if your not using CCI #34 military primers with IMR4350, you might want to give the magnum primer a try.

Bruce, my usual sight is a Trijicon Reflex with chevron recticle, no magnification. When doing load development @100 yards, I switch to a older inexpensive (Japanese) Weaver V-9 (3 x 9) variable. It takes a licking and keeps on ticking. My 1894 Marlin (44 Mag) is harder on riflescopes. I recently had to send a lighted Leupold Var X III (1.5 X 5) for a cracked front lens. Had to be recoil related since the scope was never dropped. Anyways, Leupold repaired it , no questions asked.

Winelover

[popper]

Cbrick - gone through the same with LR-308 & 300 BO mags. I know, not M1A. I got long scratches on the 308 brass till I deburred the bottom of the lips. Lots of over-ride jams til I widened the lips at the front, once the shoulder is started into the chamber, the base needs to pop up to the bolt surface. Tight or longer than needed front of lips prevents this. Moving the edge back on Pmags (BO) solved the 'tilt' problem. Per the army, the bolt moves 4-8 MPH when cycling. That 'tilt' will dent the nose or shoulder. Definitly clean up the base with a file or other to prevent over-run jams. Rough rim will pull lower cases forward - instant jam.

[26Charlie]

But- I sold my boat, motor, and trailer, so finally had the money to buy the M1A. Nostalgic maybe, since I trained with the M14 when they were new to the Marines 50 years ago. Kudos to Bruce B. for doing all the work on this thread for cast. I sighted in and shot some hardball at 200 yards last weekend, then just had to try cast - loads I had on hand from a bolt gun. so here's my two cents worth. A load of 12 gr. HERCO with a RCBS 120 RNGC failed to function the action at all - no surprise, but it is a light pest load. Next, tried the RCBS 180 gr. FNGC ahead if 28 gr. 4895. Five functioned the action, but one failed to feed the next round from the magazine. All the other loads in my stash are lighter charges of 4198 or 4227, and I can predict they will not function the action.
Since the weather turned cold, it is 15 degrees out, and I was leaning over the suburban hood, I didn't pursue accuracy too strongly - but they hit where the sights were at 30 yards. The snowplow has given me a berm at the end of my dooryard for a backstop and I decided to take advantage of it for a couple of trial groups.

[fcvan]

I'm shooting the NOE 309-150 SP from a SA M1A and a Sig Sauropod 716 Patrol Rifle (AR 10 variant). Gas checks are made from aluminum with a CheckMaker die, powder coated, and sized to .311 diameter. I started out with 24 grains of IMR 4227 and got %95 functioning. Full functioning at 25 grains, and settled on 28 grains. Lyman 49 says 20-30 grains and 28 grains is %95 load density.

Last week, I measured the velocity at 15 feet at 2050-2065 fps, the lowest spread I've ever recorded. I've only been shooting .308 since September, and picked these rifles up 2 days apart. I found the M1A as a consignment for $1000, and a buddy gave me a deal on the Sig I couldn't pass up. The SA was a field gun, used but not abused, and the Sig had 20 rounds through it.

Both rifles have seen several hundred rounds apiece between load development and my current load. The powder coating leaves nothing in the bore but burned gunpowder residue. I started using 4227 in the 5,56 (Mini 14 and AR 15) with PCd Lyman 225-415, and then 300 blk (pistol and carbine). It worked so well that trying it in the .308 rifles was a no brainier. I've already burned up 12 lbs, and have just cracked into another 8 lb jug. I love the consistent performance of the powder, and really enjoy shooting the .308 rifles.

My brother has 2 M1A rifles (National Match he bought in the mid 80s, and a Scout Squad be bought a few years ago. His has beautiful wood stocks, and mine is composite. The M1A is just an awesome, natural handling rifle. I also like that I can load 50 rounds for less than $10. Good times!

[Lindenwood]

I can elaborate more if anyone is interested, but here are my findings so far.

This is a 16"-barreled DPMS LR308 Oracle with some upgrades (FF handguard, trigger, gas block, stock). All reduced loadings utilized dacron over the powder. All bullets were 150gr FMJBT.

1) the rifle will function down to about 26gr of LVR. ES was about 200fps though with velocities averaging about 1600fps. This powder is relatively slow (2 steps past BLC2). Accuracy is pretty bad (6-8" at 100 yards), for the velocity variation and likely also due to poor engraving from the low pressures.

2) IMR 4320 was much more consistent, but would not function reliably until 31gr of powder. At 26gr, velocities were in the high 1400s (ES around 100) with 8 out of 10 not ejecting and the other two jamming. 28gr had velocities around 1600fps, ES around 80, with most ejecting but not stripping a new round. 30gr was about 80% good, with one jam, one failure to strip, and no lock-open. 32gr gave averages around 1975fps with roughly a 75fps ES. Accuracy was better with these loads, now about 4" at 100 yards.

I can infer that the low pressures with J-word bullets were a lot of the accuracy problems, based on my successes with Unique loads at higher presures. However, with the successful functioning at such mild velocities, I am comfortable running cast bullets and actually being able to get them to function.

Btw, I have all this data written down but not with me, so I am going by memory. If anyone wants more specifics, just ask. And If I misremembered something I'll fix that also.

[winelover]

I can elaborate more if anyone is interested, but here are my findings so far.

This is a 16"-barreled DPMS LR308 Oracle with some upgrades (FF handguard, trigger, gas block, stock). All reduced loadings utilized dacron over the powder. All bullets were 150gr FMJBT.

1) the rifle will function down to about 26gr of LVR. ES was about 200fps though with velocities averaging about 1600fps. This powder is relatively slow (2 steps past BLC2). Accuracy is pretty bad (6-8" at 100 yards), for the velocity variation and likely also due to poor engraving from the low pressures.

2) IMR 4320 was much more consistent, but would not function reliably until 31gr of powder. At 26gr, velocities were in the high 1400s (ES around 100) with 8 out of 10 not ejecting and the other two jamming. 28gr had velocities around 1600fps, ES around 80, with most ejecting but not stripping a new round. 30gr was about 80% good, with one jam, one failure to strip, and no lock-open. 20gr gave averages around 1975fps with roughly a 75fps ES. Accuracy was better with these loads, now about 4" at 100 yards.

I can infer that the low pressures with J-word bullets were a lot of the accuracy problems, based on my successes with Unique loads at higher presures. However, with the successful functioning at such mild velocities, I am comfortable running cast bullets and actually being able to get them to function.

Btw, I have all this data written down but not with me, so I am going by memory. If anyone wants more specifics, just ask. And If I misremembered something I'll fix that also.



How did this thread morph to Jacketed from Cast? And why would anybody want to shoot low pressure Jacketed loads and risk a bullet getting stuck in a barrel??

Winelover

[cbrick]

I thought so too, nearly 300 posts on shooting cast in the M1A.

But anyway Lindenwood, welcome to CastBoolits.

Rick

[ShooterAZ]

I have been using the Lee C312-155 boolit in my M1A, also with IMR4227 and having very good results. I have one of the older Springfields with a GI chrome lined barrel, and get no leading at all. I size to .311, use Hornady gas checks, and lube with BAC. The brass I use is Australian AAF from surplus, it's very thick, durable brass. I use CCI 34 primers, just cause. The bore is bright & shiny after hundreds and hundreds of rounds. No signs of lead in the gas cylinder, just the normal soot. I just spray the soot out with Gun Scrubber. The flash hider needs to get sprayed out too, from lube residue. I love my M1A as well, and thanks to this site I have been able to get it up & running like a clock with cast boolits.

[Lindenwood]

The focus of this thread, I thought, was getting mild loads to function in a service rifle. Sure, the objective was to be able to shoot cast bullets well, but again the focus was how to do it while maintaining normal functioning. I don't have any cast .30-cal bullets to test but wanted to see if I could get similar functional results with my AR10-platform as Bruce found with his M1A. But, sorry if mentioning jacketed bullets was so offensive as to blind everyone from the entire focus of my post, which was to provide a little data on low-pressure function in this platform. The only reason I specified bullet type was, again, to provide data.

Like I said, I intend to shoot cast through this rifle but wanted to verify it would cycle before getting too excited.

And no, I wasn't anywhere close to sticking a bullet. In my experience you have to get down in the 600-700fps before it becomes a real risk, which would take a lot less than 25gr of powder. Otherwise, all those people shooting subsonic 200+gr J-word bullets would be blowing up guns left and right, no?

[cbrick]

Now don't get your feather ruffled up. It is a thread about cast in the M1A but no one here is offended. I'd be willing to bet if you asked there would be someone here more than willing to send you some cast to try them out. But be warned it will be a game changer and you'll never be the same again. It will make you into a dedicated leadhead and you'll end up pouring your own for everything you shoot. :mrgreen:

Rick

[Lindenwood]

Heh, no worries. And actually, I have been shooting almost exclusively cast bullets in handguns and pistol-cal carbines for years :) . I was going to start shooting cast bullets through this rifle as well, but did not expect to be able to load anything powerful enough to cycle the action. Having to manually cycle the action with each shot takes a lot of the fun out of shooting for my wife (for whom these reduced-recoil loads are largely made). So, I also needed something that would both cycle and be accurate without leading. I know pushing cast bullets to service velocities without issues (like Bruce was seeing toward the top end of his loads) isn't easy, but with Bruce's results I thought Id see if my rifle would also cycle with reduced loads more appropriate for cast bullets. Now that I know it can, picking up some cast bullets is certainly the next step.

[BruceB]

As far as shooting jacketed bullets goes, in the very first posts on this thread I was mentioning my Sierra Matchking loads which I used to break-in the new M1A.

Also, I will freely admit that my "ready-use" ammo (old Navy term, there) is loaded with jacketed bullets.

Of course, it would be very easy to stash cast-bullet loads as well, or instead, and those would easily equal factory 7.62X39, or even be a good bit more powerful.

This thread has wandered a bit over its surprisingly-long life. and it's ALL about shooting our beloved M1A rifles. What's not to like?

Thread drift can be VERY EDUCATIONAL, and thread drift is something I like very much about our CB website..... nobody leaps reflexively to stamp out the heathens who DARE to post something that's just a wee mite off the main topic. We often learn things from thread drift, and that's great in my estimation.

I'm sure tickled that my efforts on this subject are bearing fruit with so many people; that's exactly what I hoped would happen. It was the intent of the project to develop reasonable baselines from which other m1A shooters could work, and it's proving-up rather nicely....

[ShooterAZ]

The great thing about cast boolits in the M1A, is that you don't have to have "service rifle" velocities to get full function and very good accuracy with reduced recoil. It's perfect for practice, plinking, and general good fun.

[DisinterestedThirdParty]

....... Next, tried the RCBS 180 gr. FNGC ahead if 28 gr. 4895. Five functioned the action, but one failed to feed the next round from the magazine. .....

I was just looking through my molds and I have that RCBS 180gr FNGC and was just wondering if it would feed through my M1a (If it ever gets here...). I'm very happy to see it will..

[DisinterestedThirdParty]

The great thing about cast boolits in the M1A, is that you don't have to have "service rifle" velocities to get full function and very good accuracy with reduced recoil. It's perfect for practice, plinking, and general good fun.

I'm just thrilled to be reading that cast boolits function well in this weapon. I've been looking at ammo/reloading costs for this rifle and shuddering. With 20-35 cents for the jacketed bullet, 4 cents for the primer and whatever for the powder (when you can find it..), that's an expensive day at the range.
Thank you and please keep the information coming...

[geargnasher]

Will keep adding as I generate pertinent data.

Gear

[trapper9260]

I know someone that have a M1A and had him test some fed ammo for me that was given me problems in my DPMS LR308 and it did not want to cycle all the time in my gun , he test it in his and he said it was low on powder and the company did not want to hear it. So I load some cast for my and end up use data from jacket for my cast and it was the 173gr lyman with GC and use IMR 4064 and I weight each boolit and then did some test at first to have the gun cycle with out problems and the weight I use is the one I had the most of with the most weight and end up that for the data is of the jack but for what the boolit weight on the mold and what it was was different and I end up with it weight with WW and lube and GC to 182gr.and shot on center at 43yards for test.So what it all come to for the M1A is if it can cycle in my DPMS it will do ok in the M1A ,but if it dose not shoot well in the M1A then it will be worst in the DPMS.Because of the CBC ammo shoots fine in both type of guns and also the Russian ammo also.

[A pause for the COZ]

Wow!!! What a valuable resource this thread is. Glad it did not get locked back there around page 11.
New to the 308 in Semi Auto thing.
All my guns must shoot cast boolits or they wont be my guns long.
I am using HM2 312 155-2 mold
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d66/Kelly2215/100_8974_zps837dadf5.jpg

Trying them out of Palmetto PTAC Tac10 AR10.
So far so good.
I have H4227 working around 22.5gr and WC844 working ok at 30gr.
Good thread!!!

[popper]

I studied this thread before loading for my LR308 (gasp, jacketed) now it's cast only. I don't have an M1A but the info is valid for me. I have found 4227 to have very low ES in 300BO. 335 seems to give me better groups ans fps than 4895 in the gas gun.

[geargnasher]

More range sessions to report, short version.

All loads are with IMR 4320, I have a bunch of it. That's forty-three twenty, not a typo. All shots fed from the magazine.

311041, 165-grain, out of a six-cavity Lee group buy mould, air cooled wheel weights....Still shooting 2" or less, repeatable round groups at 100 yards using 34 grains. 36 grains opened up the groups a bit, only shot ten one time and got about 3.5".

Lyman 311679, the John Ardito bullet. Mine drops at 209 grains with 3 clip-on 2 stick-on WW alloy. I water quenched these from the mould and today they tested 21 bhn with the Lee tool. Started at 33 grains, then 34, 35, and 36. The only thing that changed was the 36 grain load shot the smallest group at 4", the others hovered right around 5.5". The trend was clusters surrounded by flyers, mostly low-left strung flyers, could be me shooting lefty from a bipod, and these have more suds than the 311041s did and the rifle jumps a lot more.

I have no idea how fast these were going today, probably between 1900 and 2200, my Magneto Speed won't mount on the M1A unless I modify something or take off the flash hider. I only had one malfunction in 40 rounds with the 311679s, the nose didn't get pulled up high enough in the magazine and the bolt telescoped the round against the left feed ramp, looks like I need to de-nib that left nose feed tab in the magazine some more.

Gear

[fatelvis]

Thanks for the info Gear! Imr4320 huh? Sounds interesting! Does it burn clean using the 311041 34.0 grn load? Quickload says it should be moving about 1832fps.

[geargnasher]

FE, here's Bruce's data from post #34, I got 2126 average from a 24" bolt gun at 34 grains 4320 myself, but that's all I've actually checked.


In yesterday's episode, I found that while my starting-load selection with 4320 was right where I expected it be for velocities and pressures with the different bullets, the loads did NOT perform at all well as the charges were increased.

I therefore loaded three different bullet types with three incrementally-decreasing charges of 4320. The boolits were 311672, 311291, and 311467. The charges (of 4320) were 34.0, 32.0, and 30.0 grains, decreased from that starting load of yesterday, which was 36.0 grains.. I fired them in order of weight with each bullet...that is, I shot the 311291 loads in order from 30 to 32 to 34 grains, hoping to see any changes in behavior that might arise. I did see them, too.... The same order-of-fire was used with the other designs,as well.

Beginning with 311467, the 180 Loverin, the first round fired with 30.0 grains was over FOUR INCHES left of the point of aim. The next nine rounds were right in the x- and ten-ring of the 50-yd pistol center that I'm using at 50 yards (but folded in half to create a black semi-circle aiming mark). Velocity was 1816 fps average, 29 fps extreme spread, 9 fps std deviation. Group was 2.0"/9 rds/50 yds.... I didn't include the first round in the group measurement .

311467, 32.0 4320: 2000 av, 67 es, 18 sd...... and again, the FIRST round was fully four inches to the left of the group which developed in the x- and ten-rings! The remaining 9 rounds grouped 1.6".

311467, 32.0 4320: 2141 av, 63 es, 19 sd. All rounds landed within the so-called "group", which was 3.1"/10/50.

The flagrant straying of the first rounds absolutely mandates that I re-fire these loads with the addition of a dacron tuft. I strongly suspect that there's something going on with the powder positioning in the chambering of the first round, even though I just pull back the charging handle and release it to slam closed by itself. Since the same phenomenon repeated itself with 311291, although to a lesser degree, it may be that the powder is just on the edge of good burning, and the different positioning in the case might make the difference.

311291, the roundnose, illustrated clearly that yesterday's loads were driving too hard for its tastes.

311291, 30.0 4320: 1866 av, 95 es, 28 sd, 2.2"/10/50. The group was only 1/2" high, but spread pretty wide across the ten-ring.

same, 32.0 4320: 2055 av, 89 es, 27 sd, 3"/10/50.....just a loosely scattered group with nothing unusual about it.

same, 34.0 4320:2161 av, 124 es, 37 es...and a HORRIBLE 'group' (HA!), six- inches- plus in sprawl.

311672 did pretty well to begin with.

311672, 30. 0 4320: 1868 av, 79 es, 30 sd, 1.3"/10/50. Nice group, compared to some others!

same, 32.0 4320: 1976 av, 80 es, no sd reading, 1.6"/9/50... the tenth round was a flyer two inches out at 10:00, no explanation. It was called "good".

same, 34.0 4320: 2116 av, 116 es (high!), no sd reading, 2.5"/10/50....just a general loosening of the group as it neared the load levels from yesterday.

All rounds fired today functioned the rifle perfectly.

The Nevada zephyrs were out in force! It was so bad that I eventually found a BRICK (no kidding) which I used to dampen the flailing-around of my chronograph boom. I did this by duct-taping from the brick on the ground up to the outer end of the boom with considerable tension on the tape. I also had to run duct-tape from the boom just outside the rear doors of the van to the upwind side of the vehicle, to keep the boom from slewing violently down-wind in the gusts (I did this first, and added the brick rig later). The normal retaining notches were not up to the job in the gale.

I estimate the gusts at around 40 mph, and today was the first time I've felt the van actually moving very much in wind. It has a one-ton suspension, so it's pretty stiff. In the lulls which came occasionally, I'd sometimes fire three or four rounds in quick succession to take advantage of the condition. All the wind whistling through Der 'wagen kept barrel heat well under control. At only fifty yards, and with the wind mostly fish-tailing or quartering from behind, I don't believe it affected my results very much.

The learning process goes on....

Here's the deal with the 210 grain bullet and 4320: Port pressure starts to get real close to 12K psi right around 34 grains, and is past that by 36 grains, in the upper 13K range. I'd say that in an M1A 35 grains of 4320 should be considered maximum for the gas system behind that bullet weight. Problem is, 36 grains is right where the powder really starts to work correctly, and I think closer to 38 grains would be about right for the alloy I was using (3 coww 2 soww, water quenched), but the gas system can't take it. I don't have data on the lighter bullets, but this goes to show that the rule of NEVER running anything slower-burning than 4064 is a sound one, unless you're going to reduce it considerably, and reducing it enough to be safe for the gas system may put it below the ideal burn rate of the powder. I also think this factor is worse for the lighter bullets, as not as much energy is consumed early in the barrel and port pressure is likely higher with lighter bullets.

I'm planning to step up to 3031 and re-try the heavy 311679 bullets (they're listed at 196 grain, but mine are 211 with gas check), the rifle seems to like them. I also have a 160-ish grain bullet to try as well, I only messed with the Ardito bullet because I had the mould and the bullet fit the M1A throat and magazines very well, and fed very well.

Oh, and at 34 grains, the 4320 burned clean as a whistle, one of the really nice things about those IMR stick powders, they're clean even when charges are reduced a bit.

Gear

[geargnasher]

One more tidbit, 34 grains of 4320 calculates to 2008 fps MV with the 311679 from a 22" barrel.

Gear

[tomme boy]

Gear, please explain the port pressure for me. Wouldn't it be higher if it was a jacketed being shot?

[cbrick]

Trying to use BruceB's loads but that's kinda tough when ya have neither the molds or the powder he used. Viht N-140 is right close in burn rate to 4320 and is a short (very short) stick powder.

Here's the best the M1A has done for me so far, 4th time out with it. First time didn't count for nuthin, couldn't see either the open sights or the target. Put on a Nikon 9X, much better. Second outing I used the XCB bullet and 311365 with both 34.5 gr and 35.0 gr N-140. Not good, it did keep most shots on the 8 1/2 x 11 paper but . . .

Next time I tried the RCBS 180 SP with the same two powder charges and learned a big lesson with seating depth, while groups (using that term loosely) were better, not good.

Yesterday I used the RCBS 180 SP, 28.0 gr N-140 seated to 2.670" COAL. That's the group below. I have no real idea what the velocity might be with these reduced loads, cycling was flawless with all loads & bullets tried so far. I don't know if anything can be learned from how far and where it throws spent brass but it was in the same place with both 35 gr and with 28 gr.

130528

7 shots in above target, the first three were on a different target and the spotter did not see the hits so figuring possibly low off target I moved to this higher target on the same backer board and printed this 7 shot group. Of the first three shots on the other target the first two were low (in fact in the bar code at low left) and one was in the middle of this group on this target. In effect this target is an 8 shot group. As a 10 shot group the first two were low by 3 1/2 inches. barrel was not cleaned since the last shooting. With the bore scope I can say that both the bore and the gas port are spotless. Not even powder soot.

The RCBS 180 SP's were cast, sized & lubed 6 years ago. Sized with a .311" Star die to .3105" with my alloy.
Brass sized in an RCBS small base F/L die & checked in a Wilson gage for fit.
Brass is Fed commercial.
CCI #34 primer. Primer pockets uniformed with the Sinclair tool and seated primers are .005" below flush as is recommended in the M1A with the free floating firing pin.
Lube - LBT Blue.

The RCBS 150 FP also shot yesterday at 30 gr didn't fair quite as well but not real bad. Worth further testing.

Not bragging groups but definitely headed in the right direction. I've got other bullets & powders to try yet but it's a start.

Rick

[geargnasher]

Gear, please explain the port pressure for me. Wouldn't it be higher if it was a jacketed being shot?

The gas port is about 12" or so down the barrel from the base of the bullet before firing. If the powder burns too slowly, it can carry too much pressure for the gas system at that point and damage the gun. Powders that are too fast peter out, even at maximum chamber pressure, before the gas carries to the port. That means there's an operating window we have to stay in, and it's max at 12" is 12,000psi per the design parameters of the gun. Too much below that and gas volume is too low to cycle the action. Forgive me if you already know this...

Second part, I really don't know. My suspicion is the pressure curve depends a good bit on how much energy the powder expends on engraving the bullet. I suppose, when I pony up and get my own software, I can run the numbers with a jacketed bullet instead and see what the QL folks already know that I don't. At these pressure levels, though, I'm going to wager that there isn't really that much difference either engraving or at the port or even muzzle between jacketed and WD cast of the same weight.

Gear

[tomme boy]

I know nothing about this rifle other than I want one but can't afford one. Have you tried Varget yet? I used to use a lot of the 4320 in 308. But Varget or rl15 always gave me better groups. 4320 was always top speed wise out the barrel, but I always found the other two would always give better accuracy. If the gun did not like Varget, it liked rl15. Or the other way around. This was for a bolt rifle so I don't know if the burn rate would be OK or not. It should be as they are a little faster than 4320.

[BruceB]

[QUOTE=tomme boy;3137650] Have you tried Varget yet? QUOTE

There have been numerous inquiries from people wondering about their own "pet" powders.

Look at a burn-rate chart!

There are literally scores of powders which would function in an M1A. It would be flatly impossible for one person to to work up loads for ALL of them, and even then the manufacturers keep adding new ones.

We have to take some careful steps on our own, or else wait for someone else to do the basic work.

In the case of Varget: find OTHER powders with near the same burning rate, and see which of them have been tried during this thread, or MAYBE in the Lyman cast handbook.

Then reduce the load somewhat, and begin from there.

One of the requirement s of loading cast bullets, in many situations, is a willingness to experiment within safe limits. Otherwise, we would be restricted to mostly-unsatisfactory information from published sources, and I INCLUDE the Lyman handbooks in that statement.

[BruceB]

Trying to use BruceB's loads but that's kinda tough when ya have neither the molds or the powder he used. Rick

The specific bullet designs used don't matter much from a pressure standpoint.

For example, I used the 311466 a lot, at about 150 grains.

ANY .30-caliber bullet of 150 grains +/- 10 grains will work safely with my starting data. Same applies to other weight brackets.... if the design is reasonably close to the weight i used, TRY IT!

As to the powders, select something with a burning rate close to the listed powder, reduce the charge a bit, and have at it. There's a lot of room before pressures get high, and the few cases where I generated higher pressures are clearly stated.

[tomme boy]

Bruce Varget is in the burn rate for the proper operating of the gun. That is why I was asking.

[BruceB]

Yes indeed, there's NO doubt in my mind that a Varget load can be found which will function the M1A perfectly.

It just happens to be one of those (many) powders that I haven't yet gotten around to using in ANY of the dozen-odd cartridges that I still load.

In spite of current scarcities, we really are privileged to have so many options in smokeless powder. It's particularly nice to discover that the M1A works well with an incredible number of powders with widely-varied burn rates.

[geargnasher]

Tomme, there are two upper limits and two lower limits to operate the M1A, and like Bruce says, LOTS of powders will work between them.

The upper limits are port pressure (12,000 PSI is what my research keeps turning up) and chamber pressure, which is whatever SAAMI says it is for the .308, or what your rifle tells you it can safely stand.

The lower limit for semi-auto function is whatever minimum port pressure will operate the action satisfactorily, and whatever minimum pressure will obturate the brass to the chamber so the chamber doesn't get all mucky with lube and powder residue in a short time and begin causing malfunctions.

Pistol/shotgun powders like Unique don't work because they burn too quickly and would exceed the chamber pressure limits long before you got enough of it in there to bring port pressure up enough to cycle the gun. Powders slower than 4064, like the 4320 Bruce and I both experimented with and the 4831 he used, will work, BUT the pressure stays higher, longer than is ideal and port pressure exceeds the 12K limit before enough powder can be used to get chamber pressure up to what the powder likes to burn at and what it takes to really obturate the brass. You can't load anything slower than 4064 to the maximum chamber pressure with typical weight bullets without seriously overpressuring the gas system and possibly cracking the receiver. That's why powders in the 4198 to 4064 rate are usually recommended, you can load them up to charge weights where they burn well without them burning too long and making too much port pressure. It's a matter of timing.

Varget falls in the range of plenty usable, and probably safe for the gas system unless you really start pushing the chamber pressure limits. It would be handy to have Quickload to give you an approximation of port pressure vs. charge weight, then you'd know where your upper limits are when you compare that to loading data for the equivalent weight jacketed bullet.

With something faster like 4198 or RX7, you'll reach maximum chamber pressure before you ever overpressure the port, so if you stick with published data all you have to do is find your accuracy point. Or if you have it, use the powder the rifle was built around: Some flavor of 4895.

Gear

[BruceB]

Tomme, there are two upper limits and two lower limits to operate the M1A, and like Bruce says, LOTS of powders will work between them.

The upper limits are port pressure (12,000 PSI is what my research keeps turning up) and chamber pressure limit for semi-auto function is whatever minimum port pressure will operate the BUT the pressure stays higher, longer than is ideal and port pressure exceeds the 12K limit before enough powder can be used to get chamber pressure up to what the powder likes to burn at and what it takes to really obturate the brass. You can't load anything slower than 4064 to the maximum chamber pressure with typical weight bullets without seriously overpressuring the gas system and possibly cracking the receiver.

With something faster like 4198 or RX7, you'll reach maximum chamber pressure before you ever overpressure the port, so if you stick with published data all you have to do is find your accuracy point. Or if you have it, use the powder the rifle was built around: Some flavor of 4895.

Gear

"Published Data"????

This whole thread was begun simply due to the woeful LACK of "published data". NOT a lack of data for the .308/7.62x51, but data for the M1A/M14 rifle SPECIFICALLY.

This matter of suitable powders was addressed quite early in the thread, and was re-visited throughout the course of the exercise.

THE RIFLE will decide what charges and powders will work. The actual PSI figures are immaterial, because either the rifle will work, or.... it won't.

IF the ejection pattern of a cast-bullet load is similar to the pattern derived from a "standard" jacketed load, then gas port pressure is also similar to that of the jacketed load. It doesn't matter WHAT powder is used, so long as port pressure is similar to that of the jacketed load or below, and as long as the chamber pressure is safe while delivering that port pressure.

We most certainly can and do run powders a lot slower than 4064.

Likewise, we can and do run powders a lot quicker than the 'medium burners'.

Also likewise, we can and do run bullets outside the 'normal' weight categories commonly accepted for the .308/7.62.

The 4831s and 4350s etc are generally considered too slow-burning for these rifles.... WITH JACKETED BULLETS. With cast bullets, these slow-burners work exceedingly well in the M1A, offering a longer pressure curve to keep port pressures high enough for good function, and chamber pressures low enough for gentle acceleration of the bullets

Don't confuse all the warnings about slow powder and JACKETED bullets in M1A rifles, with the way things work with CAST bullets.

My M1A, the "test-bed" for this whole thread, functions perfectly with powders as 'slow' as H4831 all the way down to XMP5744 in the fast-burners.... PERFECTLY, meaning good accuracy, decent brass life, 100% mechanical function, and so on.

My rifle has fired roughly 7000 cast-bullet rounds, and shows absolutely zero bad effects from this marathon.

The 4831s can leave more crud on brass or in the rifle (not the bore) , but they do work and work well. Given a choice, I find IMR 4831 and 4350 run a bit cleaner than the "H" version of 4831. Operating pressures are safe in all regards, as long as normal due care is taken. There is no risk of receiver or op-rod damage with proper loads of the slow powders.

This rifle design, for a cast-bullet shooter, is amazingly flexible and rewarding. Without bragging too much (I hope), THIS THREAD now constitutes the "published data" for cast bullets in M1A rifles. The various handbooks are pathetically inadequate in dealing with this subject.

[tomme boy]

So with Quickload, we can estimate the PSI at a certain spot in the barrel?

So the engraving of the bullet is what seems to be changing the speed of the powder? On how it burns? Comparing jacketed to lead. The jacketed increases the peak PSI sooner and burns up more powder faster? And that same powder with lead would burn longer and the peak would be right at the port????

I am just trying to understand how the powders are reacting for this platform. So do they make a adjustable gas port so if you found that a certain faster powder in the mid range burn rates has a lower chamber psi but a high port psi could be dialed down to make work better?

I am not trying to argue. I want to understand what can be done with this.

[cbrick]

I started with N-140 mostly because I have it. Second that it is the same burn rate as 4320, Varget, RL 15 & 2520. Burns very clean even when reduced. I've gone as high as 35 gr and as low as 28 gr. Tried 4 different bullets from 150 to 188 gr. Haven't found a load that didn't cycle the action perfectly or a bullet yet that didn't cycle & feed perfectly.

I've got about 12 30 cal molds but unfortunately none match up with Bruces. Anybody have any idea how many 30 cal molds there are? Wow. A guy could have 100 30 cal molds and not have nearly all of them. I've got a SAECO 160 I want to try and a few others. Want to try the MP 180 silhouette bullet, I don't have that but this morning winelover said I could borrow his.

Popper posted some 308 N-140 loads (not an M1A) in another thread and results looked good, I looked briefly for that thread and haven't found it yet. Wanna see what bullet he used (maybe I have it) and at what starting charges, the best I've gotten so far is with very reduced charges and the RCBS 180 SP, a bore rider seated very deep.

I've been using civilian brass but yesterday 500 mixed headstamp once fired military cases showed up from Monmouth Brass, a member here. I bet you all are jealous that I get to deal with all those primer crimps, primer pockets and brass prep.

Life would be so much simpler and cheaper if only I didn't like to jerk on a trigger quite so much. :veryconfu

Rick

[geargnasher]

Rick, check the pockets before you even set up your swager, all the wcc08 I just got from them had pockets identical to commercial, only needed depth uniforming.

Bruce, jacketed published data. I was explaining to Tomme that you can go with a jacketed book max of RX7 with an equivalent cast bullet and not be over pressure for the port. If you're comfortable judging port pressure by ejection patterns, fine, but I am not now that I've seen some QL numbers for some of the slower powders, even at 6-8 grains below starting jacketed loads from published sources. There's a reason not to go slow, you have to keep loads reduced down to the "no data" land between cast and jacketed published information to keep from beating up the gun, and who knows where the danger point is? I can tell you not to ever put more than 36 grains of 4320 in a case intended for the M1A, and my rifle will concur as the extractor starts peeling back the case rims. A quick look at pressure data indicates port pressure going over 14K, and I can feel the bolt slamming the receiver, gives me a headache.

I'll continue to put up the cast-relevant data I generate if that is agreeable, but I tend to have a different approach to this than some, I'm going for around 22-2300 fps and under 2 MOA at at least 300 yards, this is a coyote and silly-wet getter for me. Lots of things can be made to work, but some are better than others, and port pressure and timing is something everyone reading this thread needs to be aware of, if academically for no other reason. Tomme asked, and as I didn't see much info on it covered here, I endeavored to fill that gap with the information I've been able to come up with.

Tomme,

"So with Quickload, we can estimate the PSI at a certain spot in the barrel?" Absolutely.

"So the engraving of the bullet is what seems to be changing the speed of the powder?" Speculation on my part, a quick comparison with QL should answer that, and I haven't bought the program myself just yet.

"On how it burns? Comparing jacketed to lead. The jacketed increases the peak PSI sooner and burns up more powder faster? And that same powder with lead would burn longer and the peak would be right at the port????" Could be. I know that seating depth and alloy change the pressure curve, I assume jacketed would change it a lot more. Problem is I never studied jacketed pressure data that closely. When I get QL I'll answer this.

"I am just trying to understand how the powders are reacting for this platform. So do they make a adjustable gas port so if you found that a certain faster powder in the mid range burn rates has a lower chamber psi but a high port psi could be dialed down to make work better?" I had the same thought. Internet wisdom from experienced M1/M14 builders does not concur, but then again they don't know boolits very well, either. That's the whole reason BruceB started this thread, and it is STILL about the only load data resource on the entire internet, maybe anywhere outside of a few people's personal notes, for shooting cast bullets in the M1A platform.

Gear

[cbrick]

I uniform all pockets anyway. I got the shop manual that Sgt Mike posted about several pages back. An outstanding book by the way. It delves deep into high level armorer level topics but there is info aplenty even for those that don't wish to set up a machine shop. One of the first topics covered is slam fires, the free floating firing pin, the cause of most slam fires and the cure. Primers must be seated .005" below flush, primers higher than this run a risk of a slam fire with the bolt out of battery which would be super bad stuff. Next is the use of #34 primers for the harder cups and less sensitive compound just as Bruce recommended. I did have a double tap with mine using Fed 210's before the #34's got here, that's why I parked it until I had them.

Regarding the port pressure serious damage can occur before you realize it. With too much port pressure the operating rod can be bent which changes it's length and firing in this condition can prevent the bolt from closing fully. In other words, out of battery. Port pressure is a topic worth noting.

Rick

[geargnasher]

Rick, in that manual have you come across anything that corroborates the 12K psi port max that I've read about?

I think it's important that people reading this realize that while they can use slow-burning powders with reduced loads in the M1A, they have to stop adding powder at a certain point due to the resulting long pressure curve and port maximum and find a safe balance (if any is to be had) between under-volume charges/SEE risk and excessive port pressure that will most certainly damage the rifle.

Gear

[cbrick]

They didn't mention specific numbers for port pressure, a bent operating rod was discussed as part of the section on slam fires. The book is not a loading manual by any stretch but it goes into detail about the primer pocket depth, seating depth as one of the reasons for slam fires. Just so happens that how they describe pocket uniforming and primer seating is exactly what I've been doing with match ammo for many years, as an accuracy trick though not for slam fires. They even mention the same Sinclair uniforming tool that I use. Even though I had done this with the Fed 210's and my primers were seated .005" below flush I did have a slam fire. I was lucky in that it was not out of battery but an eye opener anyway.

I'm with Bruce and the book and highly recommend the use of CCI #34 military primers.

Rick

[K7addict]

First off, thank you to BruceB & everyone one else for their work towards establishing the baseline data for this project.

I finally got down to loading and shooting cast in my rifle today. My 'load' is still a work in progress but I wanted to share what I had.

M1a Scout Squad - Walnut stock
Scope - Zeiss Conquest 4.5-14x44 duplex reticle
(Misc: Sadlak Piston/Sadlak Spring guide)

Boolit: Lyman 311291
Sized: .311
Alloy: simple WW & water quenched
Lube: Lee LA
Primer: Federal LR magnum
Powder: IMR 4895
Brass: FC (FL sized with X-die)

I shot 5 shot groups at 25 yards to test functioning then moved to 50 yards. All loads functioned & locked bolt on empty magazine. POA was always the center of the target dot.

To be fair, the wind was a-blowin' my target a good bit so I was squeezing shots off when I could in the 52* weather. I was shooting prone using a ruck sack up front & a sand sock in the rear. No excuses for my poor shots but it's practice and testing together.

*I did note 2 rounds that did not cycle or eject the brass & those shots went way off. One at 30.5 grains & one at 31.5 grains.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/27/af22e0aaeefb59bbb613586afe78ae28.jpg

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/27/546168d716f29be3da70a73ca2c57988.jpg

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/27/bdd962569f6ae8b0f3f07842aef3a35a.jpg

All brass looked good, I'll be testing between 27.5-28 a little more and moving from 32-35 grains on the next outing. I had my chronograph but was limited on time so I didn't set it up. I'll use my chronograph on my next outing.

[BulletFactory]

Which mold and powder would you guys recommend...I'm trying to "copy" the M118 round. In other words, I'm done paying 40$/100 for SMK rounds.

Yes, I'm reading the thread. Been here all morning.

Gear, thanks again for all the help a couple years back with the .40. It's working perfectly now in both guns.

[BulletFactory]

If we are using the SMK BTHP as a benchmark, then why do the cast boolits look so much different than a jacketed round? Seems like the first place you'd start, is with a cast boolit that looks exactly like a SMK, but with lube grooves, and then go from there. Most cast rifle rounds seem to look like old revolver bullets. I don't get it.

[30CalTy]

Been messing around with the the 311291 GC (water quenched, Lee alox, sized .310) and IMR4895 with no great results. Rifle is an M1A Supermatch w/ iron sights, prone and slung in. Rem 9 1/2 primer and FC cases with primer pockets cut to seat about 8 thou below flush.

Charges went from 26.0 up through 28grs on first test. Feed fine all the way through and locked open consistently at 27grs. Felt short at 26 but still cycled. Recoil was a little inconsistent at times w/ fliers... There was some promise at 27 grs which I'll follow up on (1.5-2MoA; scope mount inbound).

Got some Dacron into the mix at 28-30grs which seemed to help w/ making recoil feel bigger and consistent. More like the 155 J-bullet loads I have used frequently (primers in this case look nothing like the flattened J-bullet primers). Didn't seem to matter on paper though. Shot 10 and 15 round groups at 3-4MoA.

No bore leading either session, but the flash suppressor was definitely less lead shimmered at that higher end.

I've got gobs of surplus Reloader 15 that I'll try next and a decent quantity of IMR4064. Also have a lot of something close to SR4759 and a jug of 2400 (maybe I can make a good slowfire practice load). Would rather stay out of the various 1lb cans I have. Any thoughts on the surplus Re15 and IMR4064?

Also, I have been getting some lead on the case necks. Any thoughts on that? I've got a very tight match chamber and have to seat the 311291 to the crimp groove to keep it out of the rifling. I'm not too concerned about it; I use a chamber brush and clean the necks off.

[Wayne S]

If we are using the SMK BTHP as a benchmark, then why do the cast boolits look so much different than a jacketed round? Seems like the first place you'd start, is with a cast boolit that looks exactly like a SMK, but with lube grooves, and then go from there. Most cast rifle rounds seem to look like old revolver bullets. I don't get it. THE bullet that "looks" like it would "shoot" looks and the M118 is the 311365 but better shooting[accurate] bullets are the 311299 and 31141 designs. Do a "search" for 311365, several discussions on the design.

[BulletFactory]

Will do.

Last week I went on Accurate Molds catalog, and spotted a 31-170b. This looks like a SMK with the .18 meplat which is as small as Tom can make them. I plan on powder coating this, so the groove looks right. I did want a gas check design,. so I asked him about it, and he came up with the new 31-170BG, and I ordered one. Hopefully the wait time will be short. Jon Wolfe of M14parts.com is installing the barrel for me now.

Here's the link to the mold.

Non gas checked.http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-170B-D.png

Gas Checked.http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-170BG-D.png

[BulletFactory]

Since the meplat is .180, and a BB is .177, I'm going to try to make a jig to center a drill bit to the meplat. If I can drill to the edges of the meplat, I should be able to set a bb in the end with a dot of CA glue. This will protect the nose as the rounds are chambered, make the bullet more aerodynamic, and will look great.

[Digger]

Thank you Bruce ...
You will always be my reference and in my memory ...we have been taught so much .

[BulletFactory]

I couldnt get the Scout Squad to cycle with Unique, even at the maximum 14 grains according to the Lyman guide.

What would be the best powder to use for this rifle? I'm lost with it right now...

I'm running a 168grain lead cast round with a gas check. The mold is an Accurate Molds 31-170BG.

ETA, with Unique, they were hitting about 18" below the standard 168 SMK/4895 load. I get 7 clicks up to zero at 75 yards with the Match Kings.

[BulletFactory]

Anyone...?

I just need to know what powder I should try next. If my current mold design doesn't pan out, I'll try the NOE 310 165Gr. FN 2 cavity GC mold.

I've read this thread before, and I had written down a couple load recipes, one from OP, and one from Gear, but I can't find them. If I recall correctly, the OP had a best result with a mold that is no longer available. I thought geargnasher had success with the NOE, so I thought I'd try it. It's not that I didnt use the search function, I just cant seem to find the information I'm looking for.

[koehn,jim]

I would give H4895 a try. If I were using heavy boolits I would try 4831. I think you will find you are not getting enough gas volume with Unique. There is a long list of powders that Bruce had success with mentioned in the article.

[popper]

BF - I use the 31-165C, GC, PC, (GC & coated 170gr) 2400+ from an AR carbine with H4895. Shoots great but I don't have the OP rod. Ogive is slightly undersized (0.297) so no chambering problems coated.

[BulletFactory]

I would give H4895 a try. If I were using heavy boolits I would try 4831. I think you will find you are not getting enough gas volume with Unique. There is a long list of powders that Bruce had success with mentioned in the article.

I used H-4895 with the Sierra Match Kings, I didnt know you could use that powder with a cast bullet.


BF - I use the 31-165C, GC, PC, (GC & coated 170gr) 2400+ from an AR carbine with H4895. Shoots great but I don't have the OP rod. Ogive is slightly undersized (0.297) so no chambering problems coated.


The bullet you describe is a lot like what I was thinking of. Powder coated, (Im really new at this PC but I like it ...) gas checked, and pretty much the same weight.

What kind of charge are we looking at with using Hodgdon H-4895 with a gas checked cast boolit? As I said, I didnt think you could use H-4895 with lead...Thought that was for copper...????

Air cooled, or water dropped?

[BulletFactory]

Is this possible with cast bullets?
20 Rounds
75 Yards
168gr Sierra Match King, Boat Tail Hollow Point
41.5gr Hodgdon H-4895 Powder
Winchester Primers
2.00 Trim Length
2.732 OAL
Mixed Brass

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/stainless1911/file-page1_zpsfddcopjy.png (http://s765.photobucket.com/user/stainless1911/media/file-page1_zpsfddcopjy.png.html)

[popper]

I use ~3% Sb 0.3-5% Cu, oven heat treated for an hour then dumped in cold water. I'm not a very good shot but this is today's results @100. This is an AR so no OP rod to worry about.
140640

[BulletFactory]

What's the H-4895 Starting load weight?

[popper]

From Hodgdon site, 39gr., 2500 for jacketed, 45K psi. http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle

[BulletFactory]

I knew about the jacketed data, it's the cast data I'm lost on. I'm sorry.

[Wayne S]

Is this possible with cast bullets?
20 Rounds
75 Yards
168gr Sierra Match King, Boat Tail Hollow Point
41.5gr Hodgdon H-4895 Powder
Winchester Primers
2.00 Trim Length
2.732 OAL
Mixed Brass

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/stainless1911/file-page1_zpsfddcopjy.png (http://s765.photobucket.com/user/stainless1911/media/file-page1_zpsfddcopjy.png.html)140693140692These are at 100 yds.from a SA "Loaded" M1A w/ a 24 X scope

[popper]

I just start at low/mid jacket'd data and see how it does. If the alloy holds I can go up from there. I used to shoot the 168 Amax but changed to cast exclusively, bout the same load. I did try varget, save it for the Amax's now.

[BulletFactory]

OP, what's the current cast load data in the M1A you shoot? If you don't mind me asking.

I've got 30 something dollars, just enough to buy one can of powder... Thats it for a while, so I need to get the right can, and develop a load.

[dilly]

BulletFactory,

Sadly, BruceB passed away recently.

In most places finding a single very specific powder can be a hardship, so my advice to you is to pick from one of the many loads that he worked with and get experimenting. It would depend on several things but you don't mention which bullet you use.

[BulletFactory]

Oh dear....My condolances.


I have on hand, IMR-4895 and Hodgdon H-4895. I pulled a bunch that had H-4895 and bought a can of IMR.

The bullet is from Accurate Molds, a 31-170BG. With the powder coating, and the gas check, they come out to 168 grains.

I'm not sure what the maximum charge would be, I like to stay below that.

[dilly]

BruceB posted a recipe that seemed to work reasonably well on post #31 in this thread. It's not the same bullet, but the weight is almost the same and it's a reduced load anyway so you shouldn't have any pressure problems.

Happy shooting.

[BulletFactory]

I have a really basic question for you guys...

My cast, checked and powder coated round is 168 grains. Got lucky, thats what I wanted from the design. My old round, a copy of the M-118 really, also used a 168 grain bullet.

Since the old round, and the cast and checked round use the same powder type, (Side by side H-4895 was better than IMR 4895 today), then why would we not use the same charge of about 41.5 grains of H-4895? Why would the pressures be any higher than with shooting the SMK of the same weight in grains?

[BulletFactory]

BruceB posted a recipe that seemed to work reasonably well on post #31 in this thread. It's not the same bullet, but the weight is almost the same and it's a reduced load anyway so you shouldn't have any pressure problems.

Happy shooting.

Thank you.

I did a little shooting today.


Started cycling at 26 grains H-4895. IMR started cycling right off at my 25 grain starting load. I only loaded 2 of each, up to 34 grains to get me in the ballpark.

With the M-118 copy, I hit zero at 75 yards at 8 clicks up. With the cast and checked rounds, I'm hitting low, and had to come up to the 300 mark. Cant remember how many, but it's around 15 clicks I think.

I want a cast round that has a zero closer to 7 or 8 clicks at 75 yards so I dont have to second guess, or miss that first shot.

I have read this thread in the past, and once a couple months ago. Even had a couple notes, a couple recepies from gear, bruce, and others, but I lost my notes. My main computer broke, so I'm on the garage computer. Unfortunately, it's a standing area, and this is a really, really long thread. My feet get tired, hahahahaha.

[dilly]

I have a really basic question for you guys...

Since the old round, and the cast and checked round use the same powder type, (Side by side H-4895 was better than IMR 4895 today), then why would we not use the same charge of about 41.5 grains of H-4895? Why would the pressures be any higher than with shooting the SMK of the same weight in grains?

It probably wouldn't be an "unsafe" round per se, but it would give you such high velocities that it's usually pretty hard to be accurate with cast bullets. Don't get me wrong, high velocity cast bullets can and have been done, but it's pretty tough to get it just right. You are coating, so you shouldn't have as much problem with leading at high velocities as others might, but you will still likely not be very accurate at the full house load. At those velocities, having the perfect alloy (heat treated linotype maybe?) can help one maintain accuracy. The good news is that a properly expanding lead bullet doesn't "need" all that velocity to perform well.

As you've discovered, the point of impact will change due to the change of velocity. The M1A is a very easy platform to move the sights on at least.

If you are wanting a perfect M1A round that will fire the exact same weight bullet at the exact same point of impact for a fraction of the cost (I'm not mocking, I want this too), it is beyond my abilities. Some people dedicate their guns to being either cast or jacketed shooters because of this.

Good luck

[BulletFactory]

Thanks Dilly. Great post.

My primary concern was for safety, we'll worry about accuracy once we're safe. That's just how I load.


The rounds dont have to match exactly, I know that apples simply are not oranges.

I'm currently casting a set of rounds for this next test. Air cooled wheel weights. I'll load 5 each, 26 grains, 27, 28 on up, I just wasn't sure where to stop. I hate pulling bullets...Once I get the results from that test, I'll take them down to tenth grain increments until I get the most accurate load.

[JKEllison]

I have been reading this thread all afternoon and I am still lost. I have been loading cast pistol boolits for several years and have just started PCing them and I am wanting to try some in my Ruger American .308 but I can not find any data in my books or on here maybe I am not looking in the right place. I am wanting to load up some PCed 160 gr. with GC's and I have IMR 4895 and IMR 4064. Can someone please give me a starting point on this using these powders. Thanks

[BulletFactory]

I am going through the same thing with my M1A. I use a 169 grain round.

Using H-4895, and IMR 4895 on the same day, I had loadsd them at 25 grains, 26, 27, and so on. The H-4895 almost cycled at 25, it did, at 26 grains. At 32, it started picking the front of the gun off the bi-pod. I was shooting prone, left hand on the magazine.

Using Imr, the result was the same, except that 25 grains cycled the action, and it jumped at 31 grains. I'd bet it wouldnt cycle, or mayyybeeee at 24.

If you start in the low to mid 20's you'll do fine. They're pretty light.

[JKEllison]

I really didn't have a base line to start none of my books or the web sights let you pick cast lead and with them being PCed is a dead end. I have read that you can push them almost to jacketed boolit speed but Im using aluminum GC's plus being powder coated I really don't know where to start.I will try starting at 25 gr. and go from there. The ones I have checked are running about .310 with out sizing them. Guess I will have to see what I can come up with tomorrow.

[BulletFactory]

Keep after it, you'll get there.

Please understand that we are literally making the most technologically advanced bullets known to mankind. We are the ones learning and writing the rules this time.

Welcome to the forum. There is a huge knowledge base here. You'll also notice the absence of a whole lot of bull, and bickering that is so prevalent on gun websites today.

[dilly]

I really didn't have a base line to start none of my books or the web sights let you pick cast lead and with them being PCed is a dead end. I have read that you can push them almost to jacketed boolit speed but Im using aluminum GC's plus being powder coated I really don't know where to start.I will try starting at 25 gr. and go from there. The ones I have checked are running about .310 with out sizing them. Guess I will have to see what I can come up with tomorrow.


You should buy a Lyman Cast Bullet Manual. They are a useful reference and you can learn a bit about casting from it as well.

[StratsMan]

The Lee reloading manual also has many recipes for cast boolits...

[popper]

IMR & H4895 are not the same powder. H4895 can be downloaded by a bunch safely, don't know about the IMR. I chrony's the 170gr @ 2634 fps yesterday, good accuracy, close to max book jacketed load.So yes you can get jacketed performance from cast. BruceB pointed out it is the gas pressure at the op rod that is the limiting factor.

[BulletFactory]

Got some range time today, it's going to be around 30 grains of H-4895. Time to make the final set of rounds.

[BUCKEYE BANDIT]

I for one will certainly miss your wisdom Bruce B. May God bless .

My M1A is leaning toward IMR 4064 ,still working on it.

[BulletFactory]

H-4895 is more accurate than the IMR. Again, but not by much.

Looks like my load is between 30 and 31 grains. Had the best accuracy at 30.5, and 30.9. I'll load another set, probably 10 rounds per target; 30.4, 30.5, up to 31.0. I'm kinda hoping for 30.8. Just because. These are all H-4895 measurements.

[ammohead]

This thread has come a long way since the days when naysayers were telling BruceB that he was in dangerous territory shooting cast in his M1A. A few years back BruceB won the 400 yard event at the NCBS with his M1A and a performance of 5 out of 5 hits on a 14X22" gong. This year the event was renamed the Bruce Bannister Memorial 400 yard event. And I am proud to say that I won this year using my M1A but only hitting 3 of 5 sitting offhand.

http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss189/brucerfrechette/IMG_zpsn77zdmft.jpg (http://s574.photobucket.com/user/brucerfrechette/media/IMG_zpsn77zdmft.jpg.html)


And my name is Bruce also.

After getting home from the event I retrieved from my mailbox the pair of castlenut pliers and Lee Shaver inserts for my globe front sight. I had previously bought a shim kit from Brownells and now that I could get the front sight and flash hider off I installed it. It took every shim but the gas cylinder lock came up snug at just the right place for what felt like a perfect fit. Next I inserted the correct aperature for the black on a nra 25 yd repair center target at 50 yards. While I was at it I took a look at the trigger group and decided to take a tad bit off of the sear engagement for a nice crisp let off with minimum creep. The next trip to the range gave me this sweet 8 shot group at 50 yards.

http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss189/brucerfrechette/DSCF3082_zpszji613ja.jpg (http://s574.photobucket.com/user/brucerfrechette/media/DSCF3082_zpszji613ja.jpg.html)

The load was 30 gr of WC846 and Noe 150 gr flat nose. To say that I am pleased is an understatement. Thanks Mr B for paving the way. A little more than a year ago when we helped Bruce move to Reno he gave me his copy of "U.S. Rifle M14 from John Garand to the M21" by R. Blake Stevens. A wealth of information and history on this firearm. Inside the front cover is inscribed Bruce J. Bannister Yellowknife - 1984. Truly a cherished gift.

[Wedgie]

Very good work Ammohead Bruce. I am sure Bruce B. would be proud. I have been lurking on the Cast Boolits site for some time off and on. Last week Bruce's work on the M1A caught my attention and I have begun gearing up to recreate some of his recipes. As I worked my way through the posts it sure was sad to find out he had passed. When you get tired of shooting that old M1A let me know. I will send you my FFL's shipping address.

[ammohead]

Wedgie,

I hate to disappoint, but I do believe that this one is a keeper.

[dg31872]

Ammohead, what front sight are you using?

[BulletFactory]

Tried to post target pics, was more trouble that it was worth.

Go here to see pics and a build thread.

http://m14forum.com/showthread.php?p=1595696#post1595696

[ammohead]

Brownells item number 034-200-014AK. And I also bought a set of Lee Shaver aperatures item number 781-100-010AK. I like the Shavers better than the ones that came with the sight. I also opened the rear aperature just a bit so that I could see the faintest halo of light around the globe when sighting. The original hole was just a bit too small for me. Your results may vary.

[kevin]

your post makes me feel like i know nothing about reloading. how did you get those boolets to work seated like that(also what was your seat depth if you do mind sharing that info? i cant get 311291 to work well(in my M1A scout squad)when seated to the crimp groove, i get shoulder dings, case shaving, and the nose of the bullet gets engraved by the rifleing i feel like those woulden't even chamber any info would be much apperacited

[BulletFactory]

your post makes me feel like i know nothing about reloading. how did you get those boolets to work seated like that(also what was your seat depth if you do mind sharing that info? i cant get 311291 to work well(in my M1A scout squad)when seated to the crimp groove, i get shoulder dings, case shaving, and the nose of the bullet gets engraved by the rifleing i feel like those woulden't even chamber any info would be much apperacited

Who are you asking?

What do you mean by case shaving? If the bullets are getting rifling marks, back them off.

[Shootingfun]

If I can ask is there a compiled list of loads Bruce and others on this thread have put together? It would be great to see all the start and final loads without having to check every post and figure out bullet weight designs off of mold numbers. I must say I am amazed. impressed and thankful for everything Bruce did on this subject as well as what others have added from his efforts.

[BulletFactory]

If I can ask is there a compiled list of loads Bruce and others on this thread have put together? It would be great to see all the start and final loads without having to check every post and figure out bullet weight designs off of mold numbers. I must say I am amazed. impressed and thankful for everything Bruce did on this subject as well as what others have added from his efforts.

I agree. A summary post by someone qualified to construct one would be great.

[kevin]

Hey guys, I've got one for you why am i getting such whorendous shoulder dings on my cases fired in my M1A scout squad? Ive tried the 311291 seated to as long a COL as i can go and still be able to easily eject a unfired round(with one hand)with jack **** for results with that bullet, and very sever shoulder dings. And then i was able to get some samples of a 30 HVTH1 170 grainer "silver" from an arsenal mould from Ken Hall another fellow on this site(thanks again ken)and I have got some very promising initial results with that boolet in the M1A, over all length is a bit longer with this arsenal boolet. There is a slight reduction in the severity of the shoulder dings when compared with that of the results of the 311291 fireings. but there is still a pretty good "ding" on the shoulder. its my understanding that this is a factor of the overall lenght of the round. but guys on this thread talk about using much shorter boolets than the ones i have tried i cant believe that everybodys m1a beats there brass up as badly as mine seems to.

so anybody have any thoughts on what might cause this?

i will try and follow up this post maby with some pictures and also i should have the overall length numbers as well

[BUCKEYE BANDIT]

Kevin,
Which magazines are you using?.I've shot the 311291 and didn't have the Dings,just gave up on it because of engraving and accuracy.Some where in Bruce B's M1A sticky that came up,sorry but I don't remember where.Maybe try a M1A and shoulder dings search.Good luck and don't give up,it's very gratifying when you finally get it:cbpour:

[kevin]

Buckeye,
Im using $$ Springfield's. what boolet is working for you?

[BUCKEYE BANDIT]

165038Kevin,
Working with the Lyman 311041 . Just got started last fall and WINTER showed up.Only a couple days this spring so far that didn't have full value 20-30 mph wind.The youngest boy got me a Leatherwood for Christmas so hoping to take some of my failing eye sight out of the equation.I posted a pic on your other thread of my dummy round that had been cycled from the mag. several times with very little nose damage.Also I'm using Checkmate and G.I. mags. 20 round both working well.

[Swsws1]

I have been looking for cast boolits load data using a lee 155gr mold and imr4895. I have cast and quenched about 50 projectiles and powder coated them. I'm waiting on my gas checks to arrive so while I wait I figured I'd read more of this thread. However I haven't seen any load data for 4895 and that's the only powder I have. I'm not against getting a different powder but I use 4895 in my AR as well. Any help would be great.

[ammohead]

Gentlemen,

Here is the group that won NCBS 2016 50 yd group iron sight rifle bench rest.
http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss189/brucerfrechette/elk/NCBS/DSCF3354_zpseojrxjp9.jpg (http://s574.photobucket.com/user/brucerfrechette/media/elk/NCBS/DSCF3354_zpseojrxjp9.jpg.html)
NOE 155 gr 311, 30 gr WC846 WLR primers LC brass from my loaded M1A. .735"

[BUCKEYE BANDIT]

OUTSTANDING :lovebooli Congrats!!!!

Bruce B. is smilin .

[JRPVT]

Truly Awesome! Well Done! 2nd on Bruce B. smiling

[ammohead]

He may have been smiling, but not bigger than me. Urny was witnessing for me watching with a spotting scope. I would look to him after each shot and he would say, "Just keep shooting". A good day for sure. Urny took a turn after me and shot a .810". Then I went on to win 50 yd score, offhand.
http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss189/brucerfrechette/elk/NCBS/DSCF3355_zps80dsmxmj.jpg (http://s574.photobucket.com/user/brucerfrechette/media/elk/NCBS/DSCF3355_zps80dsmxmj.jpg.html)
It was a good day indeed.

[DisinterestedThirdParty]

Wow...
Catching up here...

Have my Loaded M1a, shooting RCBS #82014 with 35.5 WW748 sized 308. Cycles fine but accuracy, well, 10 out of 20 from the bench in the black. Nice shooting load but looking at these scores, I have a lot of room for improvement.

Suggestions?

[bluehorse]

Have spent a lot of time studying this thread for my m1a. Bruce b is truly missed. He helped me immensely. Just thought I would throw back my working load to repay. This is 32 gr h4895 LC cases with 311332 pc bullet. 100 yards scoped m1a standard


IMG_1207.JPG

[bluehorse]

Dang it can't get pic up184596

[bluehorse]

there we go. Only prob is pic is rotated to left 90 deg

[Wayne R. Scott]

there we go. Only prob is pic is rotated to left 90 deg

If you double click the photo it will show up right. I think who ever designed the photo software was a liberal with left leaning tendencies.

[JackQuest]

I agree. A summary post by someone qualified to construct one would be great.

BruceB is no longer with us, a great loss. Having decided to keep my SOCOM, I extracted Bruce's posts, edited his comments for significant information about each load, and compiled everything into an Excel spreadsheet.

There are a number of Sheets: the "Original" which is 128 lines - 1 for each load documented in this thread. Then I broke out each bullet into its own Sheet, and each powder into its own Sheet, to facilitate researching the information.

The Sheets are organized left to right - first bullets by ascending weights, and powders by relative burn rate, fast to slow.

UPDATE - revised spreadsheet in post #389 (can't firgure out how to delete this attachment).

[JackQuest]

Those with much better Excel skills can begin the task of creating graphs and such from the data (post 383). My personal focus is on 311291 and H335/WC844. I have had good luck (no leading) using the copper-hardened alloys described elsewhere in this forum. Mine happen to cast, with GC and lube close to 181gr.

[BulletFactory]

Thanks.

[Splatter]

BruceB is no longer with us, a great loss. Having decided to keep my SOCOM, I extracted Bruce's posts, edited his comments for significant information about each load, and compiled everything into an Excel spreadsheet...
You're THE man, JackQuest. Thank you, very much.

[fatelvis]

Would someone be so kind as to open up the Excel spreadsheet, and post it in a different manner? I can't seem to open it on my computer or on my iPhone. I would've appreciated greatly!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JackQuest]

Would someone be so kind as to open up the Excel spreadsheet, and post it in a different manner? ...

What format do you want? The file is a .zip compressed file, so you need an app to unzip it. I don't think you want to even bother trying to look at a spreadsheet with over 100 lines on an iPhone, but if you do you need GoodReader from the Apple app store. I can provide the file either as an .xls file (Excel) or as a Numbers file for Macintosh. Let me know which you prefer.

[JackQuest]

Looking at the data I realized I have not created a Sheet for 4320 powder. That has been corrected in the attachment. Also, studying the data tells me that 4320 is going to take more test loads and range time to find a "sweet spot" in the loading, if one even exists. I think unless you are sitting on a big stash of 4320 you would be better off tinkering with some other powder.

Please note the size of the file has increased due to the revision.

[JackQuest]

In Post #10 BruceB tells us THE LOAD that gave him the very smallest group at 50 yards from all of this experimentation. Note that this was really early in the process; Bruce kept chasing this 'magic' group with other powder/bullet combinations and never quite achieved parity.

4/28/2006 - 311467 Loverin bullet cast from dropped WW, sized 0.311, with "old" H4831, 35.0 grains and a CCI 34 primer. 0.6" ten shot group. This is a nominal 180 grain bullet though it does appear in the data ranging from 167 to 180 grains. I could not find the seating OAL Bruce used for this load.

[JackQuest]

Another easy-to-miss observation that I had special interest in was from 7/30/2006 - Post #49 - where Bruce compared bullets sized 0.311 to bullets sized 0.3095 and found no difference in performance. This is important because you may have a sizing die, as do I, at 0.309 or 0.3095 and not really looking forward to getting another die.

[rodauto]

Thanks JackQuest this is great! Just getting back into casting and the M1A is my main focus.
Rodney

[cwheel]

Thanks for your load development work BruceB. Someone is trading me for a old anvil I acquired years ago, getting a almost new M1A out of the trade. After firing the first 200 or so rounds, thinking I'm going to follow you down the CB bullet road. This M1A is the shorter Scout model and has ended up being unfired in a safe for the last few years. The anvil is a Hay Buden that came from Aurora to was salvaged to Bodie and came from one of the last 3 families still in town during WW2. Person I acquired the anvil from still has his school work still is displayed in the Bodie school house, provenance is no problem with this one family is well known. Mark Twain was long gone from Aurora in 1907 Number on the anvil dates it to 1907.( see his section on this in the book roughing it ) Still lots of Nevada history there. Was not going to sell or trade it until I got that kind of a offer from another Nevada resident that appreciated such things. I've got to get some fresh 7.62 X 51 brass as well. ( where did yours come from ?? ) I plan on doing the cast on my 550B with H335 so it flows through the powder measure well, got a 8 lb. of it still on the shelf to start out with. My mold is a old Lyman 311041AX double cavity with gas check. Start out using a mold that I have. Still finishing up my new cannon barrel, 1 5/8" Id + bore the trunion. So the first M1A rounds won't get loaded until spring. I'm going to continue to watch this thread, see where you go with it. A visit to Renown in Reno over last Christmas was a setback for all of this stuff.
Chris

[fatelvis]

Unfortunately, BriceB passed recently. We all appreciate his work in experimenting with the M1A. He was a valuable member of our casting community. Thanks again Bruce.

[cwheel]

Last Christmas, I almost got there first, care flight, and open heart later, somehow I made it. Would have liked to have had a chance to meet up with BruceB, by his writings, quite a interesting person. I still thank him for all of the work and will use some of it as I move forward with my project. Somehow I missed pages of this thread that showed up on the second try.
Chris

[GONRA]

GONRA suggests BruceB (GONRA's real name initials! ??? But NOT GONRA!)
keep that "Dacron Fluff" REALLY Tiny (or better yet get rid of it)
since any fillers ARE REALLY DANGEROUS in necked cartridges!
KABOOM!!

[ammohead]

GONRA suggests BruceB (GONRA's real name initials! ??? But NOT GONRA!)
keep that "Dacron Fluff" REALLY Tiny (or better yet get rid of it)
since any fillers ARE REALLY DANGEROUS in necked cartridges!
KABOOM!!

BruceB cannot answer your post but I will. Having had several discussions on this subject Mr B, Buckshot and myself agreed that the amount of dacron should fill all of the space not occupied by powder, from the top of the powder to the bottom of bullet. Enough to hold the powder in place but not so much as to be compressed. Never use so small amount as to leave any unoccupied space below the bullet.
Use of dacron in straight wall cases especially in older barrels is NOT recommended.
With fast burning powders such as red dot, bullseye, unique etc dacron is not needed or recommended.

[Larry Gibson]

Sorry GONRA, not correct. A dacron filler, when used correctly, in bottle necked cases and straight walled cases is absolutely NOT REALLY DANGEROUS. Like most anything we do in reloading if used incorrectly it can be dangerous but when used correctly the use of the filler is entirely safe.

Ammohead is correct that the dacron must be a filler filling the space between powder and bullet and not a wad tamped down to merely keep the powder in place. However, while sometimes "not recommended" a dacron filler used in straight walled cases, such as the old BP cartridges, with an appropriate powder is also entirely safe. Ammohead is correct stating; "With fast burning powders such as red dot, bullseye, unique etc dacron is not needed or recommended."

The proper use of fillers, especially a dacron filler, is explained here; http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?109280-The-proper-use-of-fillers

[Drm50]

I have used fillers in several straight wall large bore BP rifle cartridges. The small amout of smokeless will not shoot uniformly if powder is allowed to travel in case. I don't care what others say, it has worked for me for years. I would not advise others to do it because I don't know what level of loader they are. I've never had any problems but evidently others have and I have no reason not to believe them. I don't personally know anybody that had trouble of this kind.

[Biganimal]

I’m new here and have spent some time reading this thread hoping to glean useful information. And I most certainly did learn a lot. I truly regret not joining earlier and I regret I never had the pleasure of meeting or conversing BruceB.
I’m going to use the afore mentioned info to build some ammo for my M1A. I’ll report the results soon after.

[Airborne Falcon]

This thread is proof of the magical mythical Internet ether ... Bruce lives-on.

I've been following this thread for awhile now. Owning a couple of M1As I've just never been brave enough to try any CB loads in them ... but I'm giving it more serious thought.

I used to hear of pieces of tissue paper being used rather than the Dacron ... always wondered about that.

279878

ETA: Before someone types "where's the leather" ... I went through the 82nd Sniper School at Bragg in 79 and learned the beauty of those webbed slings over leather for practicality purposes. I do have one nice leather sling for the M21 build (darker wood, middle) but I just prefer the modern webbed slings over the leather. I'm not a big purest in that regard I suppose.

But I am thinking about trying some CBs in the Springfield on the bottom.

[fatelvis]

This thread is proof of the magical mythical Internet ether ... Bruce lives-on.

I've been following this thread for awhile now. Owning a couple of M1As I've just never been brave enough to try any CB loads in them ... but I'm giving it more serious thought.

I used to hear of pieces of tissue paper being used rather than the Dacron ... always wondered about that.

279878

ETA: Before someone types "where's the leather" ... I went through the 82nd Sniper School at Bragg in 79 and learned the beauty of those webbed slings over leather for practicality purposes. I do have one nice leather sling for the M21 build (darker wood, middle) but I just prefer the modern webbed slings over the leather. I'm not a big purest in that regard I suppose.

But I am thinking about trying some CBs in the Springfield on the bottom.

I think the cloth type slings make for a better “loop”, grabbing better and preventing slippage.

[SooStan]

I didn't read all of the threads but 28.5 of IMR 3031 functions my M1 308 perfectly and shoots well. It's also listed as an accuracy load in my old Lyman Cast Bullet book.

[Buckbrush]

This forum freaking rocks. Thanks for this just what I was looking for. Was thinking about casting for my m1a.

[Alan]

After getting married and having all my equipment in storage, I'm finally getting back into casting. I have a few .30 moulds, and have the SAECO #305 and RCBS 30-180F and lee c30-170f on order. I have a SOCOM-16 and standard M1-A, and am looking to add a can to both of them. That should add an interesting wrinkle to the function-and-accuracy quest.

I have a good supply of CCI LR primers and IMR4895 and 3031, but the only CCI34's I have seen on the shelf were marked at $165/K. I'm also trying to get my hands on some H4895 due to it's ability (according to Hodgdon) to go as low as 60% loading density with no ignition problems. I think that would fit right in to what we are doing here.

An additional criteria for me would be as large a meplat as I can get to shoot well, since I want this to be a hunting load for hogs. A 180ish gr slug at 1900-2100 should fill that order nicely.

I will report back in detail once I have burned some powder.

Alan

[HAL-3 Seawolf]

I have read all of Bruce B's posts with great interest. I have a Springfield Armory M1A National Match made in 1992. I've been playing with some of Bruce's load data in the rifle and have not had anything to brag about until the other day. His best load of 35 grains of H4831 and the Lyman 311467 did not work for me. I substituted H4831SC at 35 grains and it is by far the worst thing I have shot in the rifle. 5 shot group measured 1.751 inches, lots of unburned powder. So much so I had dents in the case shoulders from the powder granules. Very dirty. Action cycled slow and 5th round did not eject but did lock back the bolt. I did not finish the work up loads. Clearly not a good powder for this rifle. Tried AA 5744 (one of my favorite powders) with the Lyman 311466. Best group with 1.226 inches at 50 yards. Looked great on the chronograph. SD 8 CV .39% ES 18 Av. Vel. 2100. I think about the same results Bruce got. In thread post I saw some questions about using Hodgdon's Varget and since it works so well in my 30-40 and 40-65 I tried some with the Lyman 311467. Started at 28.0 grains and went in 1 grain increments to 31 grains. Looks like I'm coming into a sweet spot at 31 grains. Next trip to the range I'll try 31 - 34 grains. Action cycles fine but cases are a bit dirty. COAL is 2.601 which in my rifle puts it .010 off the rifling. The chronograph was acting up so only have some average velocities at 1631fps with 30 grains and 1662 fps at 31 grains. 30 grains gave me a group of .955 with 4 rds. at .642 and 31 grains gave me a group of .758 with 4 rds. at .438. Tried to load target pictures but they fail to load. Snowing like crazy here in Maine right now but I hope to get out next week to continue the load work up.

[HAL-3 Seawolf]

Purchased Hornady's Lock and Load OAL Gage Curved Model to make life easier in figuring COAL for this M1A. My figures for the 311466 did not change but for the 311467 there was a big difference. Bruce B said he used the same COAL for both since the bullet shape was the same so that is what I used. They absolutely are not. At least my mold is not. In my rifle the COAL for the 311467 to touch the rifling is 2.761. I took this knowledge and the 311467 out to the range with 22.0 - 23.5 grains of AA5744. COAL at 2.761 so .010 of the rifling. Only did 5 shot groups. 22.0 grains 1.089, 22.5 grains .728, 23.0 grains 1.085 and 23.5 grains opened up to 2.069. Action function was flawless, and the powder burned very clean. Range was 50 yards. Chrono reading for 22.5 grains were SD 10 CV .57% ES 28 Vel. 1745. I took a mic. to the 311467 as it dropped from the mold and discovered it is tapered. The widest point of the bullet nose measures .299 the first band measures .300, the second band .302, the remaining bands .310. The 311466 the bullet nose at its widest point measured .302 and all the bands measured .311. I'm casting #2 Alloy.

[HAL-3 Seawolf]

Good day at the range yesterday with my M1A NM. Lyman 311466 and 24.5 grains of AA5744. 10 rounds at 50 yards. 9 rounds at .675 and a flier 3 inches out at 10 o'clock. The fliers just come randomly. I wish I could figure it out.
312854

[popper]

fliers just come randomly. Probably crud in the bore. Possibly a non-square base or bent nose from auto loading. That far off @ 50 it is not a 'minor' defect. Some claim it's a void in the cast, doubt it.

[HAL-3 Seawolf]

I do not weigh my bullets. They do get a good visual inspection when cast and again when sized and the gas check seated. My best guess is the bullet is damaged in the auto loading process. I've been using the same 10 round magazine for all my tests. Next trip to the range I'll bring a couple of 20 round mags and see it there is any difference. I've been staying with round nose and spire point bullets to try and limit loading damage. I made up some dummy rounds to pre test feeding and damage to the bullet noses is very minimal hand cycling. Flat nosed bullets in my rifle like the Lyman 31141 or RCBS 180 FN take a big ding on the nose of the bullet so I have not shot those but in my .30 Cal. bolt guns they are very accurate. Getting this rifle to shoot cast is challenging but I'm enjoying the journey.

[popper]

As that is a louvrin type bullet, a distorted lube band could be causing throat leading easily.

[Vonllamawitz]

Bruce,

What is the alloy that you used for these loads? What is WW?

[fatelvis]

Bruce,

What is the alloy that you used for these loads? What is WW?

WW stands for wheel weights. They are the lead clip on counter weights that they balance your wheels at the tire shop with.

[JKH]

Correct, WW stands for standard clip on wheel weights.

Bruce unfortunately passed away a few years back, but has left a wonderful legacy with this topic, and many more on Cast Boolits, raise a glass in remembrance ��

[Larry Gibson]

Lest we forget......

314064

[Vonllamawitz]

Thanks. Not finding much in the way of Wheel Weights these days.