Copying the Buffalo Bore 9mm+P Outdoorsman

[three50seven]

I'm interested in working up a load similar to the BB 9mm+P Outdoorsman, which is a 147gr cast RNFP @ 1100 fps out of a full-size handgun. I plan on using these in my Ruger P89, and hopefully one of the original Ruger PC9 carbines (if I can find one.) I'm having trouble locating any data that shows velocities anywhere near that for a 147gr boolit. I'd like some input on what powders I should try out and any other recommendations.

[jmort]

This is in the ballpark from Lyman 49th

147 Cast #356637 Alliant Power Pistol 4.1 939
Remarks: sugg. start load; 26,100 cup; 1.058" OAL
147 Cast #356637 Alliant Power Pistol 4.6 1033
Remarks: max load; 30,200 cup; 1.058" OAL; potentially most accurate load

Since this is not +P you could do some load work-up and get there
BTW, he is not getting 1,100 fps
Close, but not there
That is advertised speed
Here is his actual results

➤ 1088 fps ------ SIG P226 Elite - with 5-inch threaded barrel
➤ 1116 fps ------ H&K USP Tactical - with 4.7-inch threaded barrel
➤ 1096 fps ------ Browning Hi Power - with 4.6-inch barrel
➤ 1083 fps ------ Glock model 19 - with 4-inch barrel
➤ 1089 fps ------ Walther P88 - with 4-inch barrel
➤ 1021 fps ------ Ruger LC9 - with 3-inch barrel
➤ 1024 fps ------ SIG P938 - with 2.9-inch barrel

[44MAG#1]

"➤ 1088 fps ------ SIG P226 Elite - with 5-inch threaded barrel
➤ 1116 fps ------ H&K USP Tactical - with 4.7-inch threaded barrel
➤ 1096 fps ------ Browning Hi Power - with 4.6-inch barrel
➤ 1083 fps ------ Glock model 19 - with 4-inch barrel
➤ 1089 fps ------ Walther P88 - with 4-inch barrel
➤ 1021 fps ------ Ruger LC9 - with 3-inch barrel
➤ 1024 fps ------ SIG P938 - with 2.9-inch barrel"

To me, if you look at the second and third velocities, that looks close enough to 1100 to be 1100.

[jmort]

I do not disagree
If you do some load work up from the Lyman Data, standard pressure, you should have no problem getting + P to get you where Tim is at Buffalo Bore.

The 9mm is so efficient that there is only 65 FPS difference from 3” to 5”
inch barrels
I like it

[Shingle]

Try using the exact bullet they use which is the magma engineering 147gr.Bayou bullets sells them coated. 4.5gr. wsf will put you close to it these bullets can be seated lonngg,the lyman 356637 is a royal P.I.T.A. DUE TO LENGTH AND NOSE SHAPE. I have never been able to get over 1,000fps without issues. Good luck.

[44MAG#1]

Don't they get their bullets from Rimrock. They do most of them?

[jmort]

Don't they get their bullets from Rimrock. They do most of them?

Yes, the cast ones

[three50seven]

Thanks for all the input everyone. I will look into that bullet from Bayou, as I prefer to have a coated bullet if possible. I'll have to look for some power pistol and WSF as well, I don't have either on hand.

Sent from my LGLS775 using Tapatalk

[45&30-30]

I realize this is an older thread but I wanted to add to it and see if anyone has done anymore with this.

I bought 1K of the 148 gr Outdoorsman cast that BB uses from Rimrock Bullets two years ago and loaded several hundred with 5.0 grains of Power Pistol. OAL was 1.054". I used CCI small pistol primers. (This an edit to clarify on my load data. I use a Dillon 550 with their powder measure and sometimes I use the Lee Auto-Disk powder measure. Some powders the Lee is more accurate and some the Dillon. With this powder I use the Lee. The disc size calls out 5.0 grains but it actually meters 4.9 grains. Just wanted to clear that up.)

Lee 2nd Edition shows a max load of 5.0 grains with a 147 gr XTP and the Alliant website shows 5.0 grain max with 147 gr Gold Dot each with velocities of 975fps.

I wasn't able to find my chronograph readings but would be glad to redo them if anyone is interested.

A question I have is does anyone have actual BB Outdoorsman load and would they mind taking a measurement of the OAL and posting it? I am curious because I had a couple of chambers in different guns where the bullet was sticking in the lands. I've never heard of this being a problem with the BB load.

[45&30-30]

I just ran out and got single round readings from the following guns with 4.9 grains of PP and RR Outdoorsman bullet. Snowing here, I apologize for the small sample.
Ruger SP101 2" 983 fps
Glock 19 4" 1048 fps
S&W M&P 2.0 4.25" 1053 fps
LW Commander 4.25" 1059 fps
Beretta 92 5" 1074 fps
Ruger Blackhawk 12"(Yes 12" barrel) 1153 fps

Primers are still rounded. 15' from chronograph.

[Paul105]

I get 1.050" OAL

https://photos.imageevent.com/paul105/hobby/large/IMG_32341.JPG

[45&30-30]

Thank you so much! I really appreciate it.

[Bob Busetti]

Would these loads work in a Walther P38 made in 1968?

[Cast_outlaw]

Would these loads work in a Walther P38 made in 1968?

If your gun is rated for +p it will if un certain just stick to what you know works

[soflarick]

You sure it's a P38, or a P1? P1 has an alloy frame, and other tweaks. The chamber on the P38 looks stout, but I'd research its capabilities before using +p. Moreover, the recoil springs may not have enough in them to handle the recoiling slide, and batter components.

[Outpost75]

Alloy frame P1s were not all that durable even shooting NATO ball, I would worry that +P 147s would be frame crackers. I would be less concerned with velocity and instead seek a load which is accurate and functions the pistol well. I use Accurate 36-142H cast in COWW sized .357" and loaded with 3.2 grains of Bullseye at 1.14" OAL for 880 fps from my S&W Model 940 revolver with 1-7/8" barrel

255060

[Tatume]

I believe most of the NATO ball 9mm I've shot IS +P. It is certainly hotter than commercial ammo.

[Finn45Colt]

From Vihtavuori, 4" testbarrel. J-word loads but maybe hardcast can manage those velocities..,

Bullet 9,5 g / 147 gr HP/XTP, Hornady C.O.L. 29,0 mm / 1.142 inch

Powder Starting load Maximum load
Type
[g] [grs] [m/s][fps] [g] [grs] [m/s][fps]
N320 0,20 3.1 239 784 0,25 3.9 298 978
N330 0,25 3.9 294 964 0,28 4.3 315 1032
N340 0,25 3.9 289 948 0,28 4.3 309 1015
N350 0,29 4.5 302 991 0,32 5.0 326 1070
3N37 0,30 4.7 298 979 0,33 5.1 321 1052
N105 0,40 6.1 317 1039 0,41 6.4 338 1108
3N38 0,41 6.3 357 1171 0,45 6.9 368 1207

[dkf]

Has anyone chronoed the BB round in question to see what the velocity actually is? Just because advertised is 1100fps does not mean you will get it in your particular pistol. Also accuracy has to be taken into account, if it does not have decent accuracy then there really is little point in pushing them to the max.

[Bob Busetti]

Slide says P38.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Bob-- does a magnet stick to the frame?

[soflarick]

Yea, that's the quick test. Either way, my gut feeling is it isn't going to survive being fed a constant diet of +p. May be apples to oranges, but I know the HiPower's lifespan is severely reduced being fed +p, even with the heavier 18.5lb recoil spring. There are so many inexpensive modern 9's now (Ruger offerings come to mind) that can eat +p with aplomb, risking your safety and the longevity of the older pistol may not be worth it. It's not just whether the metallurgy is good enough, but can the recoil system handle it. I don't know if recoil springs for a P38/P1 are swappable, and where would one source heavier springs anyway.

[Paul105]

Has anyone chronoed the BB round in question to see what the velocity actually is? Just because advertised is 1100fps does not mean you will get it in your particular pistol. Also accuracy has to be taken into account, if it does not have decent accuracy then there really is little point in pushing them to the max.

I haven't chronoed the lead version, but the 147gr JHP went 1,115 fps from a 3.8" CZ and 1,127 fps from a 4" FNX - both for 5 rnds at 5 long paces and 65 deg F.

All the Buff Bore stuff I've chnoned was right on advertised vel and had very low ESs -- accy/velocity will be gun dependent.

FWIW,

Paul

[lar45]

Looking at the length of the Accurate 36-142H, .585", I put it into Quickload at a loaded length of 1.169", and using 8.5gns of Blue Dot gave 1167fps from a 4" barrel @ 37kpsi and 119% load density. Blue Dot being a flake powder is fairly easily compressed. Quickload shows 38,500psi for 9mm+p
FWIW

[Outpost75]

Looking at the length of the Accurate 36-142H, .585", I put it into Quickload at a loaded length of 1.169", and using 8.5gns of Blue Dot gave 1167fps from a 4" barrel @ 37kpsi and 119% load density. Blue Dot being a flake powder is fairly easily compressed. Quickload shows 38,500psi for 9mm+p
FWIW

The .25" diameter meplat of 36-142H will probably drag against the front of the typical magazine box at max. 1.169" OAL.

Could you run Quickload again reducing the charge to 8 grains of Blue Dot at OAL 1.14"?

Also would be curious about 3.5 grains of Bullseye at same OAL if you have time.

[bluelund79]

Now this would be a cool test. I may have to order some and give it a try. Thanks for sharing the info so far, it’s a great baseline just reading through the posts.

[Bob Busetti]

No, is aluminum.

[lar45]

I put it into Quickload at a loaded length of 1.14", from a 4" barrel
8.0gns of Blue Dot gave 1135fps @ 36kpsi and 121% load density.
3.5gns of Bulseye gave 884fps @ 20kpsi and 65% load density.
4.8gns of Bulseye gave 1122fps @ 38kpsi and 89% load density.
5.2gns of Unique gave 1101fps @ 35kpsi and 99% load density.
8.0gns of AA#7 gave 1110fps @ 33kpsi and 92% load density.

[Outpost75]

I put it into Quickload at a loaded length of 1.14", from a 4" barrel
8.0gns of Blue Dot gave 1135fps @ 36kpsi and 121% load density.
3.5gns of Bulseye gave 884fps @ 20kpsi and 65% load density.
4.8gns of Bulseye gave 1122fps @ 38kpsi and 89% load density.
5.2gns of Unique gave 1101fps @ 35kpsi and 99% load density.
8.0gns of AA#7 gave 1110fps @ 33kpsi and 92% load density.

Thanks!

[45&30-30]

I did a little more testing with the Outdoorsman load. I moved the bullet to a COAL of 1.050" and got a 5 shot average of 1058 fps from a Glock 19 with a Lone Wolf barrel. Their was light leading and easily removed with a nylon brush wrapped with bronze wool.
I did a second test by maintaining the COAL and increasing to 5.3 grains. (This was done for my curiosity and not recommended.) A four shot average was 1113 fps. Their was a notable change in the primer, leading in the barrel from in front of the chamber to the end of the barrel and a gain of 55 fps. The leading required a fair amount of time to remove.
The ammo and gun were both at 60° F in the shop and went out in to 30° F air and shot within a few minutes.
Accuracy testing with the 5.3 grain load was done. Here are the results of 5 shot groups at 15 yards off hand:
Beretta 92F 5 3/4" with vertical stringing.
S&W M&P 2.0 5 1/2" with vertical stringing. This was my competition gun and shoots very small groups at 50 yards with a coated 147grain boolit.
Glock 19 with Lone Wolf barrel 4 1/4".
Glock 19 with factory barrel 2.5".
All barrels leaded their entire length.
I'll get back with accuracy testing on the 4.9 grain load.

[45&30-30]

4.9 grains of Power Pistol accuracy.
Beretta five shots in 2 3/4" four in 2 3/4" Trapezoid group.
S&W M&P 2.0 five in 2 1/8" four in 1 1/8"
Glock with LW bbl five in 4.5" four in 2 1/8"
Glock with Glock bbl five in 2 1/8" and four in1"

[Buzz Krumhunger]

No, is aluminum.

I’ve seen two P-1 (aluminum alloy frame) pistols with cracked frames and would advise against using +P ammo in that type of pistol.