38 Special +P

[dddddmorgan]

I'm sure the topic of 38 Special +P in a hand cannon for self defense has been discussed ad nauseam, I thought I would share a recent correspondence.

I've got a vintage Charter Arms for carrying purposes and I was concerned that it wasn't specifically marked for +P loads.

My letter (email) to Charter Arms:

Dear Friends,

I have had one of your Undercover revolvers for at least 25 years and it wasn't new when I got it, and I'm wondering if it is safe for the occasional round of +P loads?

The serial number is 5****1.

Thanks,

Dan



Their response:

Please see below regarding +P Ammunition:
1. +P loads require at least a 4" barrel to properly burn the additional powder transforming the
bullet to higher velocity.
2. +P loads in a 2" barrel revolver result in more muzzle flash.
3. +P loads will result in more recoil, making it harder for the shooter to come back on target.
4. +P loads cost more.
5. While not recommended, the weapon is able to handle the pressure of +P Ammunition.
We recommend a standard velocity load and practice with round nose lead rounds which are the
least expensive, when you load for protection use a jacketed or hollow point in the same grain
with which you practice.

[str8wal]

If a 4" barrel is required for a 38+P, wonder what they would say about a 357 magnum snubby. :lol:

[oscarflytyer]

having one of these, and shooting it with factory grips at <+P loads - if you want to shoot it at +P, knock your socks off and have the ice bag ready! Everyday - HELL NO! MAYBE a cylinder full for side walk loads, but prob not... A 158 grn SWC at ~750 outta this thing is plenty!

[Walkingwolf]

If a 4" barrel is required for a 38+P, wonder what they would say about a 357 magnum snubby. :lol:

That the market for a 357 magnum snubby makes it a smart move to sell them. Whether they are practical, or not, this goes for any company that sells products to the public. Think of it like the market for extra large condoms, normal size condoms do their job for 99.9% of the users, but their is a market for selling oversize ones. Not implying their is any connection between the two, but...

[dubber123]

Horse hockey as Colonel Potter would say. If you are shooting an expanding bullet/boolit, velocity matters. You got one persons personal opinion at Charter, and that's about it in my opinion.

[Walkingwolf]

Horse hockey as Colonel Potter would say. If you are shooting an expanding bullet/boolit, velocity matters. You got one persons personal opinion at Charter, and that's about it in my opinion.

And your opinion is one of the reasons that CA sells 357 magnum snubs. For people like me they sell non magnum revolvers also. No horse was injured in this post.

[knifemaker]

DUBBER123, Charter Arms may have given the right information. I have seen numerous ballistic get tests fired out of short barrels, 3 inches and less. Standard loads and +P loads were fired from the same short barrel gun and velocity was recorded over a chony and there was no difference in velocity. In fact some loads showed a few feet per second faster for the standard load over the +P load. In 4 inch barrels or longer, the +P loads did show a good increase in velocity over the standard loads.
If you do not accept this, run your standard loads and +P loads from your short barrel gun over a chony and see what the velocity is between the two. You may be surprised what you find in terms of velocity from snub nose guns. It has to do with the type of powder used by the maker of the +P loads. For a short barrel it requires a very fast burn rate to get higher velocity in such a short barrel and if you are getting a severe muzzle flash, part of the powder is burning after leaving the barrel and can not effect the velocity.

[Low Budget Shooter]

Okay, knife, here's a small sample of the huge volume of chrony test data the shooters of this forum can provide to disprove what you just wrote. (This was one of my own tests, run by me, myself.)

158 gr lead bullet shot from Charter Arms Police Undercover 1 7/8" barrel
12-shot strings from same gun in same session
Everything was the same except the powder charge
Powder charges were the max current Alliant 38 Special and 38 Special +P

651 fps - 38 Special - 3.5 gr Bullseye
707 fps - 38 Special +P - 3.9 gr Bullseye

650 fps - 38 Special - 4.7 gr Unique
780 fps - 38 Special + P - 5.2 gr Unique

I do not believe you have seen "numerous" short-barrel chrony tests in which there was no difference in velocity between standard and +P loads. If you really have, please provide links to documentation.

LBS

[M-Tecs]

Buffalo Bore uses actual chrono results from various guns for actual velocities. I have only tested a couple of their loads but their and my data basically matched. The S&W 60 results give you a good reference for comparison.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=146

[Walkingwolf]

Okay, knife, here's a small sample of the huge volume of chrony test data the shooters of this forum can provide to disprove what the C.A. person told you. (This was one of my own tests, run by me, myself.)

158 gr lead bullet shot from Charter Arms Police Undercover 1 7/8" barrel
12-shot strings from same gun in same session
Everything was the same except the powder charge
Powder charges were the max current Alliant 38 Special and 38 Special +P

651 fps - 38 Special - 3.5 gr Bullseye
707 fps - 38 Special +P - 3.9 gr Bullseye

650 fps - 38 Special - 4.7 gr Unique
780 fps - 38 Special + P - 5.2 gr Unique

I do not believe you have seen "numerous" short-barrel chrony tests in which there was no difference in velocity between standard and +P loads. If you really have, please provide links to documentation.

LBS
It is very seldom that same loads, in the same gun will have EXACTLY the same velocity, there will always be a variance. Depending on the person the extra muzzle blast, and recoil may not make that difference worth it. I buy magnum condoms so of course I want as much recoil, and muzzle blast as I can get.

The most important factor in any shooting is placing the bullet where it supposed to go, I believe they call that shot placement. Or as the girls would say, "It's not the size of the boat, it's the motion of the ocean."

[dddddmorgan]

Whoo-Whee! I got it going, didn't I? ;-)

Well, IMHO at the heart of the matter is pressure more than velocity. I know from experience over the years the correlation of velocity and pressure in relationship to barrel length, but quite honestly it is always in my head about "regular" revolvers and pistols with 4" barrels and such. And then of course this discussion with rifle barrels and so forth is the same.

What got me thinking differently after receiving the correspondence was the basic lack of a barrel if you will on the snubby revolvers. There is simply no time to develop pressure in these pipsqueak handguns. Am I right?

Certainly you will gain velocity with more powder but I would love to see results of a test with a strain gauge glued to a snubby revolver.

Quick question: Is it speed alone or speed and pressure that merit a +P rating for ammo?

[KenH]

Quick question: Is it speed alone or speed and pressure that merit a +P rating for ammo?

Pressure

[30calflash]

Nice test LBS, not a lot out there for 2" results.

My EDC is a S&W 442, Win /Rem/Fed 158 gr SWCHP +P's, I run a cylinder full thru it sparingly, std 38 spec for practice. Less wear and tear, more enjoyable and with similar weight bullets the POI is good for what it's planned for.

I've a CA 38 that will get the workout soon. If A/M grips are available they may help in the recoil dept.

[Rick Hodges]

I have a Ruger LCRx-3"....Just ran it through my chono with factory +P and my reloads at standard and +P levels. +P level loads with Power Pistol produced 90-100 fps more velocity than max. standard loads with 130gr. boolits. I noticed no appreciable increase in muzzle flash and recoil was very manageable. Whether or not a 10%+ increase in velocity matters is arguable....but the fact that +P increases velocity is not.

The guy at Charter Arms was blowing smoke "where the sun don't shine".

[Outpost75]

I don't know how durable the CA revolvers are when shot alot with +P loads. Most gunsmiths I know DO NOT work on them because a used CA isn't worth much in the resale market and it is poor economy to put more time and effort into an inexpensive gun than it is worth.

If you do not plan to shoot the gun alot, and don't intend to run a steady diet of +P in it, it may work for you. My advice is to use standard pressure ammo for practice and +P only for carry, firing off a cylinder full of that once a month for function checks when replacing the carry ammo with fresh, but no more.

Once the gun shoots loose you should consider it "disposable" unless CA us willing to fix it free.

If you REALLY like the gun, then you should get TWO. One for practice, one for carry. Have them both gunsmith inspected and keep a careful log of rounds fired, any malfunctions, etc. to compile a history so that you can have confidence from experience with the practice gun how long a CA will last in casual use. I cannot speak to the quality of current product, but from limited testing of several back in the 1980s, if you get 2000 rounds of standard pressure and 100 rounds of +P out of it with no malfunctions and no repairs requiring return to the factory, I would declare Victory.

[Walkingwolf]

I have a Ruger LCRx-3"....Just ran it through the my chono with factory +P and my reloads at standard and +P levels. +P level loads with Power Pistol produced 90-100 fps more velocity than max. standard loads with 130gr. boolits. I noticed no appreciable increase in muzzle flash and recoil was very manageable. Whether or not a 10%+ increase in velocity matters is arguable....but the fact that +P increases velocity is not.

The guy at Charter Arms was blowing smoke "where the sun don't shine".

Please tell me where he is blowing smoke? I looked it over, and every statement is true when comparing a 4 inch revolver to a 2 inch revolver. The 4 inch, or even 6 inch will give better results for the charge, no matter what the powder is. The OP asked for their recommendation, and they gave it, as much as it might upset you it IS their company, not yours. Anything they set as standards are their standards for the guns they manufacture.

I have no problem with +P, but some people do. And when it comes down to it I have dropped cows instantly with a 22 short. The end result is all that matters to me. My GP100 gets stuffed with 38/44 loads because it is comfortable to shoot(4 inch), and it can handle it. Both my Bulldog, and Pitbull get downloaded ammo because for me the motion of the ocean is more important than the size of the boat. I believe in one shot stops, back to growing up shooting 22 rimfire, but that does not always happen so I prefer controllable follow up shots. And for me higher velocity for the same bullet weight means more recoil, and muzzle flash. But then I am not superman, I leave that stuff to the comic books.

[trapper9260]

I don't know how durable the CA revolvers are when shot alot with +P loads. Most gunsmiths I know DO NOT work on them because a used CA isn't worth much in the resale market and it is poor economy to put more time and effort into an inexpensive gun than it is worth.

If you do not plan to shoot the gun alot, and don't intend to run a steady diet of +P in it, it may work for you. My advice is to use standard pressure ammo for practice and +P only for carry, firing off a cylinder full of that once a month for function checks when replacing the carry ammo with fresh, but no more.

Once the gun shoots loose you should consider it "disposable" unless CA us willing to fix it free.

If you REALLY like the gun, then you should get TWO. One for practice, one for carry. Have them both gunsmith inspected and keep a careful log of rounds fired, any malfunctions, etc. to compile a history so that you can have confidence from experience with the practice gun how long a CA will last in casual use. I cannot speak to the quality of current product, but from limited testing of several back in the 1980s, if you get 2000 rounds of standard pressure and 100 rounds of +P out of it with no malfunctions and no repairs requiring return to the factory, I would declare Victory.

Sound like a gun to stay away from. For how this is wrote up,My main wheel guns are Ruger and so far no problems.I get a 357 mag then a 38spl or 38+ P .That way I have more use and rounds to use in it. But that is just me. I had talk to one guy some time back he has a 38spl and it had a short barrel and was looking to get one with a longer barrel. I said why not get a 357mag with the longer barrel and he said about can you shoot a 38 spl in it I told him yes and why and then he said he will looking into a 357 after with a longer barrel.

[Texas by God]

My elderly father remarked after shooting 6 .357 158grhp from his S&W m66 snub- "that's stupid- give me back my .38 Special shells!" I agree. Bullet placement, bullet placement, and oh yeah- bullet placement.

[P Flados]

The +P designation goes with a higher allowed pressure. Higher allowed pressures makes for higher velocities when everything else is the same.

If you pick a common bullet weight and then sample all available commercial +P ammo, you will probably find some brands do a lot better in a snubby than others. This is all based on the powder selection by the maker and how "hot" the maker was willing to go.

If you repeat with above in the same bullet weight with standard ammo, you will again get a spread.

Unless the sample sizes are just too small, I have no doubt that the fastest results for standard ammo would overlap the range for +P. I also have no doubt that the best +P will be faster than the best standard.

If you load your own and you are talking same powder and same bullet, the +P load will be faster every time.

If you have a lot of powder types on your shelf, you may find that in your gun with your bullet, a different powder does best at +P vs. standard pressures. This will be most likely becasue one load is just closer to (or over) the max allowed. However, it is actually possible that one is just a better "optimum burn rate" at one pressure limit as compared to the other.

For these types of discussions, the Balistics by the inch web site is very informative.

For Buffalo bore 158s in a 2",

- The standard ammo was under 800 fps for the loose cylinder gap test
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/buffalobore2.html

- The +P ammo was over 950 fps for the loose cylinder gap test
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/buffalobore3.html

Now the extra 150 fps for BB ammo may or may not make a difference. That is your call.

Saying things that paint +P as "no better" was probably more a reflection on the indivduals position as to the value of extra speed vs. the overall cost.

[Walkingwolf]

Dead is dead, whether from a 22, or 50bmg. Same for a stop, a threat that stops without the gun even being fired is still a stop. The rep was right, as long as standard ammo is used properly it will have the same outcome as +P. For me that is all that matters, I do not carry, or load to brag.

[stubshaft]

My elderly father remarked after shooting 6 .357 158grhp from his S&W m66 snub- "that's stupid- give me back my .38 Special shells!" I agree. Bullet placement, bullet placement, and oh yeah- bullet placement.

With the HP "J" words available today, and some of the penta-point molds that I have. would rather shoot a slightly slower accurate round than squeeze out the last erg of velocity. I have tested 20 to 1 PC boolits in both 44 and 38 cal and have gotten full expansion at 800fps. Boosting them higher is fruitless.

[Walkingwolf]

It's like the difference between a Porsche, and a VW Beetle. They both get you from point A to B at the posted speed limit. Nothing wrong with having a Porsche, but don't put down VW for not recommending using a Beetle drive over the speed limit. Of course the dealer would like to sell you the Porsche over the VW, just like the ammo manufacturers. I believe both manufacturers recommend standard gas BTW.

The CA rep only stated the truth, for most SD purposes both standard, and +P will get the job done. A four inch barrel is more efficient than a two inch barrel. That is no horse hockey.

[knifemaker]

Lowbudget shooter, go to "Luckylabs ammo" and start with the 9mm ballistic tests and also view the tests for 38, 357, 40 S&W, and 45acp. You will see some standard loads there was a few feet per second over other +P loads with the same weight bullet. Also you will see that in a short barrel gun most of the +P loads were only 20 to 40 fps faster then a standard load. If that +P load produces a severe muzzle flash, why put up with it over a standard load that has less tendency to blind you while shooting in a dark room of your house at nighttime against a intruder.
While there click on the photos of the five bullets fired in each test and see which were the better defensive loads. that old FBI lead SWC load is not as great as some seem to think it is. It was good 25 years ago, but more modern bullets have surpassed it for defense work.

The test I am referring too are factory loads, not hand loads that can be adjusted for higher velocities in very hot +P loads.

[Low Budget Shooter]

Okay, knife, I googled "Luckylabs ammo," and got nothing. Assuming you mean the Lucky Gunner Labs ammo tests, I'll proceed from there. Remember, the statement of yours with which I take issue is this:

"I have seen numerous ballistic get tests fired out of short barrels, 3 inches and less. Standard loads and +P loads were fired from the same short barrel gun and velocity was recorded over a chrony and there was no difference in velocity."

Here are the most pertinent data points from the Lucky Gunner .38 Special tests of loads fired from a 2" barrel gun:

Hornady 110 gr FTX = 858 fps
Hornady 110 gr FTX +P = 945 fps

Winchester 130 gr Train & Defend = 803
Winchester 130 gr Ranger +P = 860

Hornady 125 gr XTP = 821
Federal 125 gr Hi-Shok +P = 847
Remington 125 gr Golden Saber +P = 877

Hornady 158 gr XTP = 716
Winchester 158 gr +P = 750
Federal 158 gr +P = 794
Remington 158 gr +P = 802

Clearly the Lucky Gunner data is not proof of your assertion. So, I still say I do not believe that you have seen "numerous" tests where there was "no difference in velocity" between 38 Special and 38 Special +P. If you really have, please refer us to that data.

[Walkingwolf]

Lowbudget shooter, go to "Luckylabs ammo" and start with the 9mm ballistic tests and also view the tests for 38, 357, 40 S&W, and 45acp. You will see some standard loads there was a few feet per second over other +P loads with the same weight bullet. Also you will see that in a short barrel gun most of the +P loads were only 20 to 40 fps faster then a standard load. If that +P load produces a severe muzzle flash, why put up with it over a standard load that has less tendency to blind you while shooting in a dark room of your house at nighttime against a intruder.
While there click on the photos of the five bullets fired in each test and see which were the better defensive loads. that old FBI lead SWC load is not as great as some seem to think it is. It was good 25 years ago, but more modern bullets have surpassed it for defense work.

The test I am referring too are factory loads, not hand loads that can be adjusted for higher velocities in very hot +P loads.

Hopefully I cans save a lot of time here. Whatever load you want to carry, you should carry. ANYBODY including myself tries to tell you to carry something different tell them, or me to bugger off.

[AggieEE]

The NRA ran a test of loads vs. barrel length, about 30-40 yrears ago?, and the powders that gave the highest long barrel velocity also gave the highest short barrel velocity. there was nothing said about the amount of muzzle flash. I hate to think about the flash a full house 296 powder load in a 2" barrel would be. Might be fun to try, once.

[Uncle R.]

The 2" .38 revolver has a long history beyond the limits of the internet - out there in (Drum roll please!) the real world. Arguing on the web may be fun but there's a lot of real-world data on the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of both the snub .38 revolver in general and specific types of ammo in that platform.

I often carry a 642 for what I suspect are the same reasons that it's been carried by so many people for so many years. It's light, it's small, it's safe, it's reliable. It has a rounded profile that's comfortable to carry and easy to conceal. I don't consider it to be the ultimate fighting handgun, but I do consider it to be miles ahead of no gun at all and "good enough" for most of the situations I mind find myself in where I need a gun.

I doubt there are many who would insist that the .38 snub is a perfect self-defense gun after the shooting begins, but the carrying benefits outweigh the shooting drawbacks for a lot of people.

There's also plenty of evidence out there that expansion from a 2" .38 during serious social discussions is a very iffy thing, even with the best loads. Extensive real-world use has shown a very small number of loads to be at least close to reliable in expanding. Most if not all of those "proven" loads are +P.

I'd think that unless a person is extremely recoil sensitive they would do well to chose the loads that have long evidence of high success rates. It's simply not true to say there's no difference in performance between the best loads and the lesser ones.

Uncle R.

[Treeman]

Regarding your older Charter..... I have one also- lightweight well timed and accurate. The fearsome Speer #8 38 spl loads were tested in a Charter snub. NO worries about your gun safely handling a few +Ps. And heavy loads of "slow" powders(assuming the powder is a burn rate suitable to achieve max safe pressure for the cartridge) may roar and flash but they give the highest velocities without regard to barrel length.

[Rick Hodges]

Please tell me where he is blowing smoke? I looked it over, and every statement is true when comparing a 4 inch revolver to a 2 inch revolver. The 4 inch, or even 6 inch will give better results for the charge, no matter what the powder is. The OP asked for their recommendation, and they gave it, as much as it might upset you it IS their company, not yours. Anything they set as standards are their standards for the guns they manufacture.

I have no problem with +P, but some people do. And when it comes down to it I have dropped cows instantly with a 22 short. The end result is all that matters to me. My GP100 gets stuffed with 38/44 loads because it is comfortable to shoot(4 inch), and it can handle it. Both my Bulldog, and Pitbull get downloaded ammo because for me the motion of the ocean is more important than the size of the boat. I believe in one shot stops, back to growing up shooting 22 rimfire, but that does not always happen so I prefer controllable follow up shots. And for me higher velocity for the same bullet weight means more recoil, and muzzle flash. But then I am not superman, I leave that stuff to the comic books.

I apologize I misread the statement that followed saying there was no difference in velocity as being attributed to the Charter Arms guy.

+P made more velocity in my gun. That was the basis of the blowing smoke comment. With Power Pistol I could see no more muzzle blast/flash with +P vs. max Standard load...just my subjective opinion firing both back to back.

With my 3" revolver there is a difference in velocity that is significant to me.

[knifemaker]

Lowbudget shooter, I worded that wrong. I meant to say that I have seen numerous ballistic gel tests, and SOME LOADS were the same between +P and standard loads. Lets face it, no human or animal will be able to tell the difference between bullets of same weight that are only 100 fps apart let along 40-50 fps but the shooter may be effected by the higher recoil and muzzle flash during low light conditions.

[Walkingwolf]

Lowbudget shooter, I worded that wrong. I meant to say that I have seen numerous ballistic gel tests, and SOME LOADS were the same between +P and standard loads. Lets face it, no human or animal will be able to tell the difference between bullets of same weight that are only 100 fps apart let along 40-50 fps but the shooter may be effected by the higher recoil and muzzle flash during low light conditions.

I have seen the same discussion with bow hunters. There are two different camps, those that believe that only the fastest arrow, and bow should be used to hunt. Others that hunt successfully with a 45# recurve bow, nothing fancy.

[dubber123]

I can assure you 50 fps. can and often does make a difference in whether a bullet/boolit will expand from a snub, and 100 fps. really makes a difference. If you are shooting a non expanding bullet/boolit, or don't care if it expands, velocity surely doesn't matter. If I was intent on shooting slower loads, I would seriously consider a full wadcutter for the biggest meplat possible. If you want an expanding load from a snub, do some real testing, and find out where reliable expansion occurs. Just my opinion.

[knifemaker]

Dubber123, expansion is only one part of a good defensive round, how deep it will penetrate into the body is also as important as the expansion. The 38 special, especially in snub nose revolvers is at best a marginal stopper due to it's low velocity in short barrel revolvers. One of the reasons law enforcement got away from that caliber and went to 9mm and 40 S&W with higher velocities for better stopping power with better penetration and expansion. The 38 special is nothing but a 9mm round that is low on velocity compared to the 9mm.
The FBI requires 13-18 inches of penetration into 10% gel after going though several layers of denim fabric. A lot of 38 special loads from short barrel guns will not make that 13 inches. Now consider this, that gel test duplicates hitting a suspect in soft flesh such as the stomach area. If you hit him on the breast bone or rib, you will get even less penetration due to the hard bone being impacted.
I have trained many civilians in firearms instruction as a certified LEO firearms instructor and competition match shooter for many years. Most of them have problems handling the recoil & muzzle blast of a stub nose revolver shooting loads hot enough to
stop a person bent on harming them. If you are going to limit yourself to a defense round that is around 800-850 fps, go to a bigger caliber at that speed that will give you a better chance of surviving the gun fight.
If a short barrel 38 special is all you got, practice enough to be sure of putting multiple rounds into a vital area to insure stopping the threat you are facing. If you can put two rounds into the chest and a third round into the head in under 3 seconds, two seconds is even better, then that 38 special will do you for a good defensive round.

[Piedmont]

Lets face it, no human or animal will be able to tell the difference between bullets of same weight that are only 100 fps apart let along 40-50 fps but the shooter may be effected by the higher recoil and muzzle flash during low light conditions.
That 50 or 100 fps. may well make the difference between expanding or not. It could be critical.

[knifemaker]

It could be very critical. if you are on the margin line of velocity, sometimes you will get expansion and sometimes you will not. Go to the Luckygunner labs ammo test and see many rounds in numerous calibers that failed to expand due to the HP being clog with the denim clothing. click on the photos of the fired bullets and see a larger picture and you can see many rounds that failed to expand of the five rounds tested. Of the different calibers tested, Federal HST was a consistent good performer in the different calibers and a lot of law enforcement agencies have gone to the HST ammo due to better stopping performance. Winchester also has some new ammo out that is a great performer in 45ACP, even surpassing the HST ammo in that caliber.

[Low Budget Shooter]

knifemaker, your point about accuracy suffering with overly-powerful ammunition is a good one, which all should consider. But it is not proven true by the nonsense statements you keep making. This time you wrote:

"no human or animal will be able to tell the difference between bullets of same weight that are only 100 fps apart"

In the 38 Special snubby, here's what you are talking about:

158 grain SWC 725-750 fps = no expansion .36 caliber
158 grain SWCHP +P 825-850 fps = expansion to .55-.65 caliber

When the "FBI Load" came into common use by police in the 1970s-80s, many shootings demonstrated that the human body can indeed tell the difference between those two loads.

[M-Tecs]

About the time I purchased my S&W 337PD AirLite PD 38+P Revolver at local sporting goods store went out of business. I got a great price on a bunch of various 38 self defense ammo. I never ran them over the chrono but the +P 129 grain Hydrshocks shoot like a target gun with perfect POI. In a 10.8 oz gun they are snappy. That guns has the best single action trigger pull I have ever shot. No one believes how well it shoots until they watch me shot groups with it.

[JBinMN]

Just for information purposes...

You can look it up yourself, but the 158gr cast RNFP pushed by 4.6gr BE-86 (Max. suggested load) in a 6" barrel is on Alliants load data website running at 982fps and that is not a +P load.
[ Source: http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/recipedetail.aspx?gtypeid=1&weight=158&shellid=26&bulletid=318 ]

158gr LSWC is at 948fps, pushed by 5.4gr. Power Pistol ( Max. Suggested) in 6" bbl. & that is also not yet +P
[Source: http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/recipedetail.aspx?gtypeid=1&weight=158&shellid=26&bulletid=30 ]

And that same 158gr. LSWC at +P using the same Power Pistol powder at 6gr.( Max suggested) in a 6" bbl. is running at 1037fps.
[ Source: http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/recipedetail.aspx?gtypeid=1&weight=158&shellid=27&bulletid=30 ]

Now, understanding that there is gonna be some additional fps from a 6" bbl over a 2" snubbie, but I would reckon that it may drop it down to the mid 800s fps in the shorter 2" bbl for the first 2 & mid 900s fps for the last one. That is still a significant "punch" to someone if they are hit by it.

I would imagine that if one went to using JHP rounds, using the same approximate loads ( researched & tested, of course), one might find they were gonna do a bit of damage at those speeds as well.

I keep either 158 gr. JHP or LSWC or 148gr. LDEWC in my 38 snubbie & our .357 snubbie and am completely comfortable with those loads as personal defense rounds, if they were to be used. We practice with regular paper plate sized targets at 25yds & the smaller desert sized ones at 15 yds & less for our target sizes, using those snubbie wheelguns & are confident in hitting it that area pretty consistently. I like to think of it as, "shot placement" is just as important, if not more than what happens when the projectile hits a "soft target". If someone is coming at ya & if you have practiced at basically "head sized" targets without stress ( although we do practice "stress" type shooting as well.), you can be pretty confident that the bad guy is gonna take some hits & the closer he/she gets it is just gonna get easier to hit them where ya want to hit them.

Now, what I am comfortable with for defense is not going to be the same as others, so like folks say, YMMV. But, like was mentioned just a couple/few posts before this one. The FBI carried those type of firearms & loads for a long time & had pretty good success with them. To top it all off, looking at those ballistics test mentioned earlier, the WCs & SWCs did a pretty good job of penetration & at speeds of mid 700 fps, but when the loads were bumped up to mid 800s, which is easily achievable with less that +P as mentioned above, (using the right powder choice), they mushroomed out nicely. {See the last few rows & pics at the bottom of the chart & compare the fps & the pics to the fps speeds listed in the above aforementioned loads.}:
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/#38spl

Anyone can make the decision for themselves what they would be comfortable with using for "their" self defense use. I am just saying what "I" am comfortable with, were I to use those snubbies in 38spec for self defense purposes... Once again, like said, YMMV.
;)
Not trying to get into a debate. Just offering "my" opinion.

G'Luck with your choices!
:)

[Forrest r]

FWIW:

I own a ca undercover.
https://i.imgur.com/7iOwgin.jpg

It's nothing special, bought it used for the misses to carry along with a compact double stack 9mm. She didn't like the bulk/weight of the fully loaded bulldog or the 3" bbl'd l-comp 586. Last year I did some testing with that ca undercover. I wanted to get an idea of what a powder could do in the p+ range/load in the snubnosed ca undercover. I was more interested in the powders performance than the bullets so I used 10 different bullets and 5 different powders for the test. I took 1 powder/load and loaded up 5 rounds of each bullet and ran them over a chronograph. The end result was I got 50 rounds per load/powder chronographed. The bullets were all hp and 9 were cast and 1 was a swaged jacketed hp. The weight of the bullets ranged from 140gr to 160gr. The bullets used:
h&g #51 hpswc 150gr
Cramer hunter rnhp 158gr
cramer #26 hpswc 150gr
358439 hpswc 158gr
358156 hpswcgc 150gr
Mihec 640 fnhp 158gr
hbwc turned backwards 148gr
jacketed hp 150gr
358431 hbswc that was hollow pointed 140gr
raphine fnhb that was holllow pointed 150gr

The powders used:
bullseye
be-86
unique
power pistol
2400

I shot/tested all 500 38spl p+ loads in 1 afternoon in the ca undercover pictured above. The end results were:
bullseye averaged 801fps for the 10-bullet/50-shot string
be-86 averaged 845fps for the 10-bullet/50-shot string
unique averaged 833fps for the 10-bullet/50-shot string
2400 averaged 882fps for the 10-bullet/50-shot string
power pistol averaged 887fps for the 10-bullet/50-shot string

What load/bullet someone chooses is up to them.
What I can say about the ca undercover is that every p+ load I've tried in it had move velocity than the powder/standard max load/same bullet combo.

[Petrol & Powder]

OK, back to the OP:

Where you start has a LOT to do with where you end up.
While it is true that a longer barrel will allow the user to extract more velocity from a +P cartridge than a short barrel, there is STILL a gain to be had with +P even in a short barrel. So Charter Arms' advice that there is nothing (or very little) to be gained from +P in a short barrel is bad information. I think the two pages of responses prior to this post back this up.

OK, enough about 2" barrels and +P performance.

Moving onto the gun itself - I agree with Outpost75. A Charter Arms undercover is a serviceable gun but it is basically disposable. That is NOT saying the gun is weak! (personally I think the CA revolvers are quite strong). It is saying that spending a lot of money to correct one that has become loose is probably not a good use of funds.
So practice with standard pressure loads and carry +P. If the gun ever becomes loose, consider it a Bic lighter that has run out of fuel and replace it.

Standard Pressure 38 Special vs +P 38 Special:
There is an incredible amount of hype and misinformation concerning the differences between Standard Pressure and +P.
The SAAMI specifications for standard pressure 38 Special loads set the max pressure limit at 17,000 psi.
The SAAMI specifications for +P 38 Special loads set the max pressure limit at 20,000 psi.

That's only a difference of 3000psi ! That's IT folks!
+P is a higher pressure load but we're not talking huge margins here. The 9mm Luger and .357 mag max pressures are 35,000psi !

There's no doubt that long term use of +P ammunition will expose the gun to additional stress and potentially accelerated wear. However, keep everything in perspective. I don't remember the name, it may have been Jeff Cooper?, but there was a test involving a lightweight alloy framed S&W J-frame and +P ammunition. 1000 rounds of +P were fired through the little alloy framed gun with no problems. The gun was tight and functioned normally at the end of the test. I'm not suggesting someone duplicate that test but the point is the guns are tougher than many believe.

[dddddmorgan]

I am in agreement with the idea of standard 38 loads being acceptable/sufficient in any situation where I have the gun with me.

You might say "The .38 ain't enough gun in 'this' or 'that' situation." Well I stay away from those situations. In rural Idaho I can and do. I'm not using it for a house gun, I know the debate over caliber sufficiency is endless so I return to the words of a short little fellow I met once, when I was a teenager. I was at a gun show in Twin Falls Idaho and met Elmer Keith. Big hat, wrinkled like a prune and a grip of iron. Anyway, a fellow from my town here by the name of John Taffin quoted Keith when he said "I would rather face a fool with a .44 Magnum than a skilled adversary with a .22."

[35remington]

My two cents, but having shot and chronographed 38 Special out of short and medium length barrels quite extensively, more so than most people, I can assure you that there is more than an insignificant velocity difference between standard pressure and Plus P loads.

Handloads especially tend to accentuate the difference, but it exists in factory ammo as well. But suitable ammo selection is not always or maybe even primarily about speed all the time.

Whether said loads are needed by you is a personal decision to be made when all factors are considered. I am not of the opinion that when suitably and sensibly loaded a 38 snubby gives up a great deal to other defensive calibers in guns of like size and weight.

I am not interested in comparison to arms of significant increase in size and weight. To each type are strengths and weaknesses, but I’d rather compare apples to apples.

[Outpost75]

.35 Remington is correct. But also clouding the issue is the effect of varying cylinder gap, which is every bit as important as barrel length, yet very seldom, if ever mentioned in test data you are likely to find online.

With standard-pressure .38 Special lead ammo you can expect a Delta-V of 10 fps for each 0.001" change in cylinder gap from Mean Assembly Tolerance. This means that a 2" or 2-1/2" gun assembled at the minimum build-spec of pass 0.003/hold 0.004" may likely produce a higher velocity than a 4" gun at the maximum build-spec of pass 0.008"/hold 0.009"

The difference is even greater when firing +P, +P+ or .357 ammunition. When I worked in the industry this data was carefully compiled during production of contract orders, firing a daily ten-board of QA audit samples over a period of several years, involving several hundred guns of various barrel lengths, produced on the same production line.

[dubber123]

I entered into a peeing contest with a member who insisted his .22s and .32s were at least the equal of a larger caliber gun because he could place multiple accurate shots from them. He even went so far as to claim he could make multiple eye socket or nasal cavity shots. I felt then, and do now he was a deluded soul making himself justify his firearms choices. I've never been in a gunfight, and hope I never am. If it happens, I have a sneaking suspicion you better make your first shot count. If I'm right you may, if LUCKY get one or two shots in, and I want them to be as effective as possible for the caliber involved.

[stubshaft]

Ya gotta hit it to kill it.

If a person is confident enough in their ability to get first shot on target and that target is an eye socket. Then kudos to them! If they want to carry a 22 or 32 and feel that it is adequate then so be it. The main thing is that they are carrying SOMETHING.

I may not share their choice of weapon/caliber but by the same token they may not agree with what I carry. I do not care!

[Walkingwolf]

Ya gotta hit it to kill it.

If a person is confident enough in their ability to get first shot on target and that target is an eye socket. Then kudos to them! If they want to carry a 22 or 32 and feel that it is adequate then so be it. The main thing is that they are carrying SOMETHING.

I may not share their choice of weapon/caliber but by the same token they may not agree with what I carry. I do not care!

Thank you, that personal choice is such a problem for others. I am surprised that the do it my way is so strong in a community that is supposed to be about liberty, and freedom.

[dubber123]

I don't care what anyone carries, I just think anyone who claims to be able to hit a tiny, likely moving target, when surprised and scared is either Ed McGivern reincarnated, or full of poo. There is a reason the big X on combat targets is in the middle. Anyways, my opinion, and worth what you paid :)

[dddddmorgan]

And here is where someone inserts the remark "Practice, practice, practice."

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

[Walkingwolf]

I don't care what anyone carries, I just think anyone who claims to be able to hit a tiny, likely moving target, when surprised and scared is either Ed McGivern reincarnated, or full of poo. There is a reason the big X on combat targets is in the middle. Anyways, my opinion, and worth what you paid :)

It really is none of your business what size target they can hit. You will just have to get over it, your blood pressure will thank you.

[dubber123]

It really is none of your business what size target they can hit. You will just have to get over it, your blood pressure will thank you.

Absolutly right. Darwin tends to weed them out, none of my worries.

[charlie b]

Effectiveness of bullets has been controversial since the gun was born.

Plenty of incidents where folks have survived bullets fired from just about any weapon. Even head shots are not a sure thing as bullets have been known to 'skid' around the skull.

Stopping power? All depends on the person being shot. Go look through some Congressional Medal of Honor citations. Many cases of soldiers being shot with everything from pistols to heavy machine guns and still fighting on. Or look at police reports of perps being shot and continue to inflict harm on others.

Sure things? A shot penetrating to the brain should stop a fight. A shot to heart or aorta will eventually stop a perp, in a minute or so. A shot to a hip may at least hamper the perp's mobility but won't stop him from shooting back.

I support the 'rule'. A mouse gun on your person is better than a bigger one left at home (or in the car).