Grandson Stocking Car Batteries For Casting Muzzleloader Bullets

[DonMountain]

Our grandson that is staying with us while he attends a local college, has mentioned casting bullets for his muzzleloader from car battery plates. And over the weekend he went to visit his parents, and came back with a bunch of car batteries. We have recommended that he not try that as it is dangerous, especially after reading all the recommendations on this forum. So, now we are at the point of trying to protect ourselves from this endeavor. What should we do?

[trails4u]

I've seen recyclers giving between $6-10/battery. Scrap them....and buy known allow with the proceeds. If all he's shooting is ML....how much lead could he need?

[country gent]

Battery plates are very dangerous to cast and work with. And there may be some undesired materials in the lead now. If a scrap yard is buying them sell them and buy known lead to cast with. Battery terminals and posts washed down can be used if smelted down outside first. Get him a copy of lymans cast bullet handbook or the lyman black powder handbook both have good sections on bullet casting and why not to use batteries. Also what lead to use and for what. There are several issues with batteries disposal of the acid is one, getting them open and cleaned out is another.

[bumpo628]

Another reason aside from the safety and alloy issues listed above is simply the poor yield.

You can only get about 10% of the weight out of a typical battery.
For example, a 30 lb battery will only give you 3 lbs of lead.

If they will give $5 or $6 for that battery at the scrap yard, then you can buy lead for $1/lb and get twice as much.

[country gent]

There isn't as much actual lead in a car battery as people think the plates are thin and spacers between along with everything else in there. I did some work in a shop for valenite ( a battery company in Toledo) and when ask for new lead to test the mould and specs they brought enough for making one casting at a time. A lot of work risk for very little yield

[40-82 hiker]

Have your Grandson read this, then scrap the batteries, yourself if you have to.

From Linstrum in 2008: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?138362-Why-Car-Batteries-Are-Dangerous

"Why Car Batteries Are Dangerous

The warnings about smelting automotive batteries to recover the lead they contain needs a bit of explanation. Doing so really does have the potential to harm or even kill you and here is why. Maintenance free/low maintenance batteries use calcium metal-doped lead to catalyze the hydrogen gas generated from water electrolysis back into water. That is what makes the batteries low maintenance or maintenance free, you don't need to add water to the cells as often like in the old days. When the battery lead is melted down there is enough sulfuric acid from residual electrolyte trapped in the lead dioxide and lead framework of the battery plates to react with the small amount of calcium metal in the lead alloy. Normally when sulfuric acid (or water) gets in contact with calcium metal it undergoes a rather vigorous reaction that generates hydrogen gas. In and of itself this is no big deal, hydrogen is a simple non-toxic asphyxiant that is also flammable. But the lead alloy used in batteries also contains a bit of antimony and even arsenic to help harden and strengthen the lead to withstand the vibration and general knocking-about batteries have to withstand in order to survive normal automotive use. When hydrogen comes in contact with arsenic and antimony, or compounds of these two elements, the hydrogen reacts to form ammonia analogues called arsine and stibine, AsH3 and SbH3. Both of these are heavy gases and both have the similar characteristic odors of rotting fish. In World War One the Germans experimented with these, along with phosphine, another rotting-fish-smelling gaseous ammonia analogue with formula PH3, as war gases. As such they were highly effective since they are deadly in amounts too small to easily detect. In even smaller amounts that are too small to immediately kill they cause rather painful lung damage that often eventually leads to emphysema and lung cancer.
So, leave smelting car batteries or using lead smelted from them to professional recyclers. Many folks including myself have successfully smelted batteries and lived to tell about it, but the risk is just too great to mess with the stuff."

[lwknight]

Aside from the hazards, man what a lot of hard , nasty work for so little return and then what do you do with the bones?
I agree with others about just selling them and buying some lead.

[ARKLITE881South]

Trust me, tell him not to do this, one thing for sure, he'll ruin a lot of his clothes, don't ask how i know.:oops: And, he won't get that much lead, sell them, then buy good quality pure lead for the ML.

[triggerhappy243]

DITTO=DITTO-DITTO sell the batteries to a battery recycler. Place here gives $10.00 for a dead car battery. $10.00 will buy$15.00 worth of raw lead.

[Beagle333]

I'm with the crowd. It's a fool's errand with such high risk for such low reward. It's almost Spring now, tell him if he's willing to work that hard for lead, get a weekend season job in the garden department at Lowes or Home Depot and after working 3-4 weekends he'll can buy way more lead and none of the headaches from getting it. Just my .02

[Rcmaveric]

I get my lead from the scrap yards. I would seriously have a talk with him. Then take him down to the scrap yard and turn them in and then get some lead from the scrap dealer that wont kill you and potentially the neighborhood. Then you scrap it with him and show him the ropes. I get my lead from the scrap dealer and haggling with bossy momma san is half the fun.

[JimB..]

Death rarely scares people, I’d tell him that it causes irreversible impotence and does something to the lower intestine so you have to wear a colostomy bag for the rest of your life.

Then tell him that the yield is only 4-5 lbs per battery and he can easily get that by selling them. Heck, encourage him to collect more specifically to sell them as he’ll like that it builds on what he has already done.

[Edward]

Or suggest he finds a new place to do his projects

[dverna]

Have him read this thread.

If he still wants to do it, ask him why. Do not treat him like a snowflake....treat him like a man.

BTW...your house....your rules....if it gets to that.

[Rottweiler]

Sell the batteries for at the scrap yard and use the money to buy already cleaned pure lead.

[Tom W.]

My reclaimed lead came from Sanders Lead in Troy, Alabama. I received it in 60 lb. ingots. Those people know what they are doing. Look them up and see if they still sell to the general public. Don't fool with car batteries.... Worse than death is permanent disfigurement or other injuries.... Wanna live with a respirator on your face for the rest of your life?

[fredj338]

I wouldn't open & melt battery plates, too much work & too much hazard. Just say no, if that doesn't work, give him a Darwin award.

[Smoke4320]

In a word NO.... in two words No NO .. as many have said above sell the batteries to a scrap yard and by know good safe lead
faster easier and better all the way around

[Plate plinker]

^^^^What all those guys said, unless he is a chemist.

[Hickory]

Maybe he wants a Darwin award?

[ShooterAZ]

I would probably offer to buy him some lead from Rotometals. Yeah... I'm an enabler. Sell the batteries to the scrap yard to recoup some of the cost.

[Budzilla 19]

No,no no, HELL NO!! Sell those batteries he’s been scrounging up, buy clean soft lead and let him live to be an old man by adding to his knowledge base!! Come on PawPaw you know how to handle this!!! Just my .02 ...................... let the flaming begin, I can take it. Just concerned .

[Tom W.]

Ain't no flaming due......

[JSnover]

I hope the recommendation sounded something like "no way, no how, Not Here!" I also hope he listened.

[Wayne Smith]

Not only all of the above, but if he got extremely lucky and did succeed, the results would be too hard for his muzzle loaders anyway! Its a no go all around.

[lightman]

You have certainly had a challenge with this young man! This is probably one issue where I would really assert myself. I would not want the acid and other stuff on my property and demand that it be removed. I would donate him some soft lead or even buy it for him. From your other post it seems like he does not listen well but this is one area where he would hear me. Good Luck!

[bangerjim]

" QUICK.........hire a teenager while they still know everything!"

NO...................NO.......................NO.. ................and NO!

How much clearer can we be. The experts (and al of us) say NO.......VERY DANGEROUS.

And eve if he/you survive the re-melting of the plates, it will NOT be pure Pb like he needs for ML's.

Get/take the batteries from him, take them to a local scrap yard, get the money, and buy pure Pb on here if he is so bent on casting for FREE. Personally I PAY for ever ounce of Pb & alloy I shoot.


OH.............and did I say NO!!!!!!!!

banger

[OS OK]

I think this kid has been doing You Tube videos > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhZTlqqeBi0

After all the comments, wasted worries and wasted words...I'm certain he 'passed' when God was handing out 'Common Sense'.

[ioon44]

Wow, looks like a candidate for the Darwin awards.

[KCSO]

No No No This will KILL you. The gasses from smelting these at best will make you choke hack and puke. I know I tried it years ago and learned a hard lesson. Even outside in open air one whiff and you choke.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Have him read this thread.

If he still wants to do it, ask him why. Do not treat him like a snowflake....treat him like a man.

BTW...your house....your rules....if it gets to that.

I nominate this for POST of the month.

to DonMountain,
adding to dverna's comment, I can only assume your grandson is intelligent, judging by these four things being true. 1. going to college, 2. shooting Muzzleloader, 3. wanting to cast his own, 4. and having a grandpa who is a boolit caster. So you don't want to insult his intelligence...guide him to learn what is best and safe.

[leadman]

IIRC there is calcium in battery plates. I did use old batteries many years ago but disassembled them where I worked and could dispose of the waste materials there. The lead was used to cast muzzleloader balls and fishing sinkers. Sinkers worked great, the muzzleloader balls were hard and very difficult to load into the bore.
Usually by the time a battery goes bad there is a lot of lead oxide (looks like dirt) on the plates and once the plates dry out it will fall off the plates when the plates are tapped with a hammer. What is left is mostly a grid of lead and maybe some lead on the upper part of the lead.
Very little lead from the plates, more lead from plate connectors and terminal posts. Not worth it.

I have quite a bit of pure lead. I'll contact you by pm about it.

[reddog81]

Lead is cheap, new lungs are expensive. I wish you the best of luck convincing him that this is a terrible idea.

[RogerDat]

I would say no don't do it, that it is very unsafe for a tiny yield but don't want to be guilty of piling on. Oh what the heck.


Dangerous battery with 3# of lead if you are very effective at recovering the lead content AND don't end up dead or in the hospital.

OR

Scrap yard pays $6 to $10 per battery and you go to the vendor sales or swapping and selling and buy some lead at around $1 per pound. At the least you end up with 2x as much lead and no health dangers. Better case you get 3x the lead by buying it with the battery scrapping proceeds. And again not health dangers, except maybe to your back. Batteries can be heavy.

[alamogunr]

It seems to me that the economics of this situation would be overwhelming in favor of selling the old batteries as is rather than trying to salvage a little lead. Even if the $$ were a wash, the health risks and the physical effort should convince even the most immature person to sell and use proceeds to buy lead.

[wmitty]

Have him google arsine gas. If he has common sense; he will back off. When I saw that evil looking smoke from the one I melted, it made a believer out of me.

[lightman]

Don, it looks like you have not been on since starting this thread. I hope all is well. If you can convince him to leave the batteries alone I’ll donate a small flat rate box of soft lead in ingot form. I think that will be 20# or so And should keep him busy for a little while.

[Walter Laich]

Don
Given what we know about your relationship with your grandson you are again between a rock and a hard-head.

In fairness I'm not too old to see the appeal of getting lead for almost nothing with the exception some effort--Cheap is King. All the replies have age, knowledge and experience on their side.

There are several folks on this site that sell lead for about $1.15 a pound including shipping Jetfan-24 is one that comes to mind (I'm a happy customer is all--no stock in his enterprise)

What I do in my 'casting for cowboys' (SASS shooters) is buy in bulk and then charge a bit more per lb. That way the customers don't have a big outlay and theoretically I make a few ¢ents per pound. Still need to figure out how the cost of electricity figures into this as I probably am actually losing $$ in long run but it's a hobby after all.

best of luck

[alamogunr]

Looks like the OP has had no luck convincing the grandson to alter his plans to salvage battery lead. I've got two grandsons in college and if made aware of half the arguments in this thread, they would change their plans in a heartbeat.

[frkelly74]

I saw a sign on the Batteries Plus Store that was offering to buy old car batteries for $7 each, I have gotten as high as $13 each at the scrap yard in the past. I find it odd that The core charge was $22 at Advance Auto Parts but that is beside the point. I would certainly sell every battery I could scrounge rather than mess with dismantling them for the lead. I guess that is the consensus here isn't it?

[WILCO]

I think this kid has been doing You Tube videos > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhZTlqqeBi0


Fake video.............

[DonMountain]

After unexpectedly being away from home for the weekend (my wife took me on a ride on Route 66 for my 66th birthday), we came home and discovered the grandchild had broken open two of those old car batteries and put the plates in a plastic bin filled with water and apparently baking soda from the evidence.

[triggerhappy243]

what hospital is he in?

[OS OK]

Fake video.............

Oh yeah...where did you get that info?

[Finster101]

All safety precautions aside, it's your house your rules. If he can't abide by them then perhaps it's time for a dorm room.

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

Recently watched a video on a guy breaking down a car battery to get lead. Didn't seem too dangerous (not looking for an argument), but... I would never do it after watching the video. It looked like WAY too much work for the small amount of lead he got out of it. I'd have to be pretty desperate to mess with that!

[triggerhappy243]

look at it this way. batteries yield 3-4 pounds of lead. you can sell a whole battery in most parts of the u.s. for 10 bucks. Take that $10, and buy lead from your local scrap metals yard and walk out with 10 maybe 15 pounds of lead. WIN-WIN.......................

[lightman]

Thats a Cool Birthday gift! Happy 66th Birthday!

[JimB..]

After unexpectedly being away from home for the weekend (my wife took me on a ride on Route 66 for my 66th birthday), we came home and discovered the grandchild had broken open two of those old car batteries and put the plates in a plastic bin filled with water and apparently baking soda from the evidence.

Interesting? Had you told him not to do so? Have you explained that the batteries are worth more than the value of their lead?

[Wayne Smith]

I saw a sign on the Batteries Plus Store that was offering to buy old car batteries for $7 each, I have gotten as high as $13 each at the scrap yard in the past. I find it odd that The core charge was $22 at Advance Auto Parts but that is beside the point. I would certainly sell every battery I could scrounge rather than mess with dismantling them for the lead. I guess that is the consensus here isn't it?

It has been the consensus ever since they came out with sealed batteries. Those are the ones with contaminated lead plates.

[john.k]

If the EPA find out whats going on,penalties may well exceed the value of your house and land.Bear in mind that if he blabs to his college buddies about what he s doing,one of them can drop a dime on you for a reward of half the penalty.

[DonMountain]

If the EPA find out whats going on,penalties may well exceed the value of your house and land.Bear in mind that if he blabs to his college buddies about what he s doing,one of them can drop a dime on you for a reward of half the penalty.

I can't imagine a battery being so toxic that the EPA would be any bit concerned about two batteries being stripped out and their contents being dumped on the ground. In my younger years when I was a rural firefighter with the local fire department we flushed down many cars with front end collisions where the batteries were crushed. All of the batteries are placed in a location that makes them very vulnerable to being crushed. So, this argument just doesn't hold any water. What I was more concerned about would be the possible toxic fumes getting his grandmother or I when he tries molding lead projectiles out of the plates in our basement when we come back from taking care of my wife's ailing aunt for a few days.

[DonMountain]

Thats a Cool Birthday gift! Happy 66th Birthday!

Well thank you lightman. I enjoyed the surprise weekend trip, but often thought how many new reloading dies or bullet molds I could have bought with that money. But I guess I already have enough of that kind of stuff?

[Walter Laich]

often thought how many new reloading dies or bullet molds I could have bought with that money. But I guess I already have enough of that kind of stuff?

fake info . . . you never can have enough of that kind of stuff

[RogerDat]

fake info . . . you never can have enough of that kind of stuff Well if your bomb/tornado shelter consists of heavy plywood set on top of your stacks of molds and dies in boxes you might be getting pretty close to enough. Unless you decide to add a mother-in-law bomb & tornado shelter out in the garden shed, no not the casting shed, the metal one with the tarp roof, yeah that one. Might need some more "building materials" to build that second shelter. I'm sure dear wife will be most supportive of the purchases too, since they are for dear mother.

[Grmps]

Some Battery places will pay over $10 for some batteries.
Sell them and buy clean alloy

[alamogunr]

He ain't listening!

[DonMountain]

He ain't listening!

I am, but he ain't. We have already suggested all of this stuff to him. Even emailed him some videos. But he sees free batteries laying around his parents house and it means free lead to him. I found out why today that he needs all of this free lead. He got a box in the mail today from Budsgunshop with a new 1851 Navy Revolver in it. But no round ball molds that I could see.

[NWPilgrim]

Why is this an issue? It is your home, why is he leaving stuff there and taking apart batteries at your home and not his parents or his own? Tell him he has 24 hrs to dispose of the batteries off your property or you will have them recycled yourself. Otherwise you are giving implicit permission for him to behave however he wants.

[bumpo628]

I think I figured out the problem: he must see the batteries as his only available source of lead.

Most scrap yards do not sell lead to the public (at least here in CA - maybe they do in MO).
So, selling the batteries means losing a source.

The simple solution is to show him how to buy lead on this forum.

[RogerDat]

I think I figured out the problem: he must see the batteries as his only available source of lead.

Most scrap yards do not sell lead to the public (at least here in CA - maybe they do in MO).
So, selling the batteries means losing a source.

The simple solution is to show him how to buy lead on this forum.

Makes sense to me. Let us call the scrap yard and find out what they give for batteries while we look over all this clean casting lead for sale. And if that don't work stop being an enabler. Take them to scrap yard, or call scrap yard to pick them up. If he gets a little miffed, that's ok, doing dumb stuff should have negative consequences, insisting on doing dumb stuff in the face of your objections should have worse consequences.

You know when I hear about someone just bound and determined to do it the stupid way I generally like it best when they are arranging flowers stupid, or baking cupcakes stupid, or even painting their deck stupid. I just cringe when I think of someone that would ignore all the accumulated knowledge and even simple common sense from this forum playing with molten lead in preparation for playing with firearms. Sorry people who are that willfully foolish should be encouraged to take up badminton or quilting because they are a hazard to themselves and others around things that can cause injury in not handled with some care and thought.

Sorry to put it so bluntly but you need to tell him we sell them and buy lead or I'm going to call and have them disposed of. My house, my rules, even if you refuse to go along with them politely. I don't have to convince you, trying to was a courtesy, one you didn't appreciate. Now I'm telling you we haul them from here to scrap yard for the scrap value or I just call the scrap yard to come get them and they pay nothing but you don't do stupid things with them. Which is it going to be?

[alamogunr]

Color me ignorant! Is the lead he may get from batteries even suitable for muzzleloader balls?

[bangerjim]

I think I figured out the problem: he must see the batteries as his only available source of lead.

Most scrap yards do not sell lead to the public (at least here in CA - maybe they do in MO).
So, selling the batteries means losing a source.

The simple solution is to show him how to buy lead on this forum.

++++++++1 on that!

I have no problem buying tons of Pb locally from scrap dealers. But if you are not lucky enough to live in a “normal” state, either move or buy Pb and alloy on here! Supporr our bro’s on here and buy from them!

[DonMountain]

++++++++1 on that!

I have no problem buying tons of Pb locally from scrap dealers. But if you are not lucky enough to live in a “normal” state, either move or buy Pb and alloy on here! Supporr our bro’s on here and buy from them!

I don't have any trouble buying lead myself either. Just this past week I bought a bucket of lead wheel weights that must weigh at least 70 pounds from my tractor tire dealer when I had them fix a car tire for me. But I had to give them $30 for it. And the child doesn't see this as being very intelligent as he can get all the lead he wants for free from all of these old batteries from the old wrecked cars laying around his parent's house. In his book we are the stupid ones. That means you and me and all of the other elderly people on this web site. And I am sure nobody on this web site has ever attempted to extract lead from batteries for casting lead projectiles. As none of us has ever read a Lyman reloading manual like the one we gave to the child for Christmas.

[40-82 hiker]

I am, but he ain't. We have already suggested all of this stuff to him. Even emailed him some videos. But he sees free batteries laying around his parents house and it means free lead to him. I found out why today that he needs all of this free lead. He got a box in the mail today from Budsgunshop with a new 1851 Navy Revolver in it. But no round ball molds that I could see.

Working on the batteries while you were gone should be the end of it, IMHO.

Your house, your rules: Goodbye to the grandchild. Growing up can be painful, but still a learning experience. Rules are rules. JMHO. YMMV.

[JimB..]

he can get all the lead he wants for free from all of these old batteries from the old wrecked cars laying around his parent's house.

He is half right.

Obviously you can’t shoot a car battery from a gun, so starting with the free battery there are two paths to getting to a bullet.

He is on path 1, extract lead, make bullet, realize that alloy matters, stop.

Path 2 is far better, sell batteries, buy soft lead, make bullet, success!

Neither path costs him cash. For whatever reason he just can’t see that he’s picked the high cost (in terms of time) high risk path with very very low probability of success.

I’d explain it to him again, with an emphasis on congratulating him for his dedication to solving the problem. If he decides to continue just let him be, he’s probably past the really dangerous bits by now anyway so just needs to learn that the resuting bullets won’t shoot well and will lead badly.

[john.k]

If his parents yard is full of old cars ,why cant he do the smelting there.I think you should do some research on the costs of soil testing and remediation,and possible penalties before you allow this.I have seen this type of activity cost unsuspecting owners lots of money .This kid is trouble with a capital T.

[RogerDat]

If his parents yard is full of old cars ,why cant he do the smelting there.I think you should do some research on the costs of soil testing and remediation,and possible penalties before you allow this.I have seen this type of activity cost unsuspecting owners lots of money .This kid is trouble with a capital T.
What could possibly go wrong? Young person lacking experience and unwilling to take advice or follow rules messing with toxic chemicals in order to extract lead which will be melted to make bullets. I really can't see where anything could go wrong. Hardly seems possible.

Lord help you if you live near a wetlands or water course or someplace with a high water table and sandy soil. Junior pisses off one neighbor or just someone that knows what he is doing at your house and they drop a dime to the local environmental or dept. of natural resources unit. Not that he is likely to piss anyone off, he sounds like a thoughtful, respectful and polite young person. (yeah I know, it's a sin, I'll go to confession or something). In the end battery lead will be too hard and possibly full of chemicals that make the smoke from firing toxic or possibly corrode the snot out of his firearm.

[Flinchrock]

Color me ignorant! Is the lead he may get from batteries even suitable for muzzleloader balls?

Not really.

[leadman]

I sent Don a small flat rate box of pure lead, hope he can get his grandson to use it.
I have made muzzleloader balls from battery lead over 35 years ago and it is very hard to load them as they do not like to engrave the rifling. I did dispose of the remains at my work so it did not go into the environment.
There is a big difference in washing down a broken car battery in an accident vehicle to protect the citizens than breaking one open on purpose. Course our fire dept. here washed about 20 gallons of gasoline down the sewer once, that did create some tension!

[lightman]

Thats a nice gesture leadman! I also offered to donate some soft lead suitable for a muzzleloader.

[bowfin]

Where in Missouri do you live? I have a son that goes to college in Moberly, maybe your grandson can sell the batteries and we can make a deal on some safer lead.