Today's Test of the Knight .50cal. Big Horn

[Maven]

All, It's been some time since I've done any testing of the Knight in-line, mostly because I buggered up the fiber optic rod in the front sight: Had to send for a new set from Brownell's and fit the front one to its base and the base to the rifle. The base was easy, but the front sight itself has a dovetail, unlike the one-piece front sight that came with the rifle. Once it was back on the rifle, it didn't take long to adjust both windage & elevation: The former is fine, but the latter may need a bit of adjustment. Be that as it may, I wanted to see whether the primer had any effect on accuracy & point of impact, leaving everything else the same. Here's what I used: .490" RB's cast from a T/C mold; .014" patches pre-lubed with Wonder Lube; 50grs. Pyro. P. The primers were CCI #11 v. Win. 209 (had a large no. of these from disassembled 16ga. shotgun shells). My target was a 4" diamond shape placed @ 50 yds.

Results: I was somewhat surprised to discover that primer type did indeed make a difference in both point of impact and accuracy, with the CCI #11 caps producing significantly better results. I.e., percussion caps gave me an honest 1.5" group ~1" below the top point of the diamond. On the other hand, using the Win. 209 primers produced much larger "groups" (maybe 4") and an impact several inches higher. I'll retest this in the not-too-distant future, but I think percussion caps are the better way.

After I got tired of monkeying with RB's, I tried the Lee 250gr. & 320gr. REAL's at the same distance with 40- and 50gr. charges of Pyro P and Win. 209 primers only, as I already cleaned the percussion breech plug. The results were barely acceptable for the paper patched 250gr. REAL (6" groups) and better for the heavier ones (not paper patched). I.e., 2 would land in 1", but the next 2 would be 3" - 4" further apart. I'll try the 330gr. REAL with percussion caps, but I suspect those two molds will be up for sale soon.

[Rattus58]

Hi Maven.... :)

I long ago learnt that what we want in a muzzleloader is the least amount of flame necessary to lite off the powder if you want accuracy. Pistol primers give you much greater accuracy than 209's in those guns you need that primer and a #11 will give youmuch better accuracy than a musket cap (though I use musket caps for everything just because of availablitity and the number of muskets laying around here). If I could get smokeless to go with a #11 I'd do so... although a duplex load works, I don't know about pressures so I don't fuss with that much in my smokeless shooting muzzleloaders.

Good report... the 320 Reals in my White work up to about 70 grains then spin wildly to the right above that load.. I can't figure that out, if a bullet is going to fly on you, it fly on you around the barrel, meaning that 6 shots should be an erratic circle around your bull... but for me they all go right for some reason.

There are so many other bullets out there nowadays that shooting real's (and I suggest you use wads with reals... that taper invites flaming and gas cutting with heavier loads and P is getting up there heat wise at 70 grains.. It's my hunting load most of the time with 470 grain bullets.

U/C has a line on dozens of bullets you should try and Bullshop is a great place to look as well... and did I say cheep?

Aloha.. :cool:

[Maven]

Rattus, My preference would be to use #11 caps (or #10's since I have quite a few of them) rather than shotshell primers, but I had a pile of unboxed ones to dispose of. It certainly would simplify things to use just one ignition source for my 3 percussion rifles. (I'm including the Knight here.) As for the wads, I've been using cereal box 1/2" wads under the REAL's and Maxi's for a long time and find I get slightly better results with them in place. I'm finding that different guns with different twist rates have very different preferences with respect to conicals. E.g., my 1:48 twist .45cal. T/C Hawken bbl. shot the REAL and a T/C and Lyman Maxi Ball equally well, whereas the Knight, with a 1:28 twist, likes the Maxi-, but neither of the REAL's. I'll check out Bullshop's offerings;thanks for mentioning it.

[Underclocked]

http://home.mchsi.com/~rltsr/bullshop.jpg

Maven, I would suggest you try the 445 grainer and the 460 grain NEx from Dan. You'll probably want to measure your rifle's land-to-land and get the bullets sized just a fraction (.001 or so) over that measure. I would also suggest an overpowder wad and charges of 70-80 grains.

[Rattus58]

Hey... Uncle... what's the MT New... 410 bullet? Looks pretty neato.... :)

TIA... a new phrase I learnt the udder day... :)

Aloha... Tom :cool:

[Maven]

Underclocked, The 445gr. CB's look like they're just what the Dr. ordered! Btw, I'm still looking for the a T/C Maxi-Hunter mold, which is similar to the U/C, but haven't yet found one; ditto for a clean, used Lee Minie ball mold (may just have to order one directly from Lee). Thanks for the pics!

[Underclocked]

Rat, that .410 MT New is a bullet from a mold identical to the one CNut sold Smurf. Hurricane boy (Ben) uses those with excellent results.

Maven, that UC Short mold was the one us DWBs did a group buy on. Rat should have ordered 50 of 'em. Sort of a shot in the dark as this was my first attempt at bullet design - but there is nothing very unique about the bullet and it turned out great. The only thing I might try different with a second effort for that bullet would be to make the bands just slightly wider and the grooves slightly more narrow. I don't think it takes one heck of a lot of "good" lube to do the job if you are shooting a properly sized lead slug. Dan's lube is better than good.

I don't think you would be so very happy with a minie or any tapered conical... and eliminating short starters is a big plus (IMHO).

[Maven]

Underclocked, What's the problem with Minie's and tapered conicals? Do they cast too small and thus are inaccurate? If they're not good, I can save some $$ by not purchasing one. Btw, I know what you mean about the short starter!

[Underclocked]

Tapered conicals worked well for me in rifles with a longer twist (particularly 1:48) but just do not compare to the "slip-fit" straight-sided conicals in faster twist barrels in terms of accuracy achieved and ease of use.

Many of those types are hollow base designs where you rely on the skirt around that cavity to expand and seal - often the cavities are too large leaving too little skirt thickness. They are compromise designs meant to be useful in a wide range of barrels with differing diameters and rifling styles. Round ball rifles would tend to have deeper grooves than today's inlines and "compromise twist" barrels often have that same deep groove rifling where those expanding thin skirts offer some advantage if not pushed too hard. But most modern inlines, including your Knight, will have much shallower and, hopefully much more consistent rifling than was achievable in the past.

The smaller base and sometimes considerably larger upper bands can result in issues with alignment, the thin skirts can easily "blow" causing a loss of seal, and accuracy. The flat-based tapered conicals are often of such design there is very little bore-riding contact by comparison to designs such as those Bull Shop uses.

So I'm a believer in the use of heavier, bore-riding, straight walled conicals in faster twist rifles for best results. Aside from the accuracy I've witnessed, the amount of down-range energy retained by such conicals is substantial even with modest charges of powder. If sized just larger than your land-land measurement, the bullet should stay seated under most normal circumstances and yet be easily started in your bore. A pure lead (as pure as you can get) bullet of good design that is roughly .001" over land-land is going to load easily and you can leave that short-starter in your range box.

My old Hawken .45 would lay Maxi-Balls in there with amazing accuracy but I've yet to be positively impressed trying to shoot them (or similar) from a modern inline with a reasonable hunting charge. Sizing with a short starter isn't exactly my favorite thing either. :)

Hope that blurb made just a little sense.

[Rattus58]

Dang Uncle... that was... well beautiful... *sniff*

Where can one get one of the MT molds from? Is that Dan at Mountain Moulds?

Some minies, the 577611 for the 58, are a very hardy bullet and can take huge loads. Rapine made a mold for me with a heavy skirt in both .580 and .585 (useless) that takes 120 grain loads in my T/C and 130 grain loads in my Zoave with no problems. Lee made some heavy skirted minies for me too that take a heavy load, but killed its first deer with 70 grains...

Tapered conicals like the REAL bullet illustrate all the possible issues of alignment, poor gas seal etc. One of the Great Plains type bullets I have were somewhat tapered too and were hammer sized... till I got a sizer... :)

Well done ..... :D :D

Aloha... :cool:

[Maven]

Underclocked, Your explanation made perfect sense and pretty much mirrors my experience too. E.g., .45cal. Maxi-Balls, both Lyman & T/C and .45cal. REAL's grouped very nicely (5 shots touching @ 50 yds.) in my T/C Hawken with its 1:48 twist bbl.*, but the .50cal. REAL's aren't nearly as accurate. The 320gr. one will put 2 touching from the Knight, but the others will be 2"-4" farther apart. However, the .50cal Lyman & T/C Maxi's are accurate at the same distance from the Knight with both target & hunting loads, but the Lyman was much harder to start down bore (bigger in all dimensions except maybe length than the T/C). I'm beginning to see what you mean about the short starter! Since we're in agreement about the chancy accuracy of tapered conicals, I've got to ask where I can get a mold for straight-sided ones, preferably no heavier than 400grs.? Btw, I've toyed with the idea of pqper-patching some .45-70 CB's, e.g., the Lee 405gr. HB's to fit the Knight, but that's quite a few wraps of paper and labor intensive for who knows what kind of accuracy.


*The rifle (circa 1980) was purchased used, but in excellent shape except for the filthy bbl. It took 2 weeks of daily scrubbing to get it clean, but it was an excellent shooter after that. It would group .440" RB's as well as it would Maxi's & REAL's.