30-30 Reloading Help

[EMR]

Mods please move this if this is in the wrong section.

This is my first rifle I’ve ever reloaded for which is why I’m seeking advice from the collective.

Using a NOE 311-180 (311041) I cast, PCd and made some dummy rounds for my Win 1894 AE in 30-30. Per my Lyman manual, I seated them to OAL of 2.510.

After cycling them though the gun, I noticed all of them had multiple flat spots around the circumference of the bullets. Since this is my first time reloading for rifle (and a lever gun at that), I don’t know if I’m hitting rifle lands or if I’m good to go?

There’s is a tiny bit of resistance felt as the receiver starts to close.

Any advice is greatly appreciated! Thanks!

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180217/23a13654d8982a3d21cce9ef39f786e3.jpg

[TNsailorman]

Did you resize those bullets after PC'ing them? If not they are going to be larger in diameter than .308 or .309. They might be large enough to be hitting the step at the throat of the cartridge case. That is what it looks like to me. james

[Larry Gibson]

The PC increases the diameter including that of the nose. The lands are scraping the PC off the nose.

[Motor]

The PC increases the diameter including that of the nose. The lands are scraping the PC off the nose.

Yep. This is another reason why I like the Lee 160gr 2R TL. Even when powder coated it's profile does not interfere with the lead. (The part of the chamber where the rifling starts)

I do flat point them for use in tubular magazines.

I really don't know what your easiest fix is. I'm personally in the bigger is better club when it comes to cast boolits but since I switched to powder coating I'm actually finding there is really no need.

If you are not doing so already I suggest you size the boolits .309" and see if that helps. You can also seat them deeper too. At typical cast load pressures a difference in seating depth should not be an issue in the 30-30.

Motor

[Rcmaveric]

Nice looking cartridge.

What is your chamber dimensions? Also get a dowel rod and close the action. Insert the dowel rod and mark it at the muzzle. Insert your bullet into the chamber then hold it gently in the throat with a pencil. Now while holding the bullet in place, reinsert your dowel and mark it. Now measure that distance and write it down. I will normaly subtract .002 of that measurement and use that as my starting seating depth. Then you can load up dummy rounds and slowly seat deeper till the rounds cycle reliably.

I didn't see mention sizing the bullets. A chamber cast will tell you if the bullet needs sizing. If you powder coat it does change the dimensions of the bullet and requires measuring seating depth again. I use the Lee C309-150-RF for my 30-30 and it has different seating depths for greased or PC'ed.

[EMR]

Did you resize those bullets after PC'ing them? If not they are going to be larger in diameter than .308 or .309. They might be large enough to be hitting the step at the throat of the cartridge case. That is what it looks like to me. james

I resized them to .311. I choose that because they mic’d out of the mold at .312. After PCing .315. I didn’t want to resize too much for fear of shaving off PC.


The PC increases the diameter including that of the nose. The lands are scraping the PC off the nose.

It’s actually not scraping off, but simply creating flat spots. That white spot in the picture is just an overexposed spot in the photo.

With that said, are these safe to shoot as-is? Or am I going to have pressure or accuracy issues?


Yep. This is another reason why I like the Lee 160gr 2R TL. Even when powder coated it's profile does not interfere with the lead. (The part of the chamber where the rifling starts)

I do flat point them for use in tubular magazines.

I really don't know what your easiest fix is. I'm personally in the bigger is better club when it comes to cast boolits but since I switched to powder coating I'm actually finding there is really no need.

If you are not doing so already I suggest you size the boolits .309" and see if that helps. You can also seat them deeper too. At typical cast load pressures a difference in seating depth should not be an issue in the 30-30.

Motor

As noted in my reply above, they’re sized to .311. Which brings up a new question: the nose of the bullet which is flattened wasn’t affected by the resizing. So would further resizing make any difference?

[EMR]

So I did another test and made a dummy round without any PC. I'm still getting the flat spots, albeit slightly smaller appearing.

Is this mold just a bad fit for my rifle?

I ended up getting the 311041 based on all the recommendations here but I see that I may just be unlucky.

Anyone have any other recommendations for flat nosed molds or should I look into having a smith throat the chamber?

[popper]

Seat a tad deeper/shorter. OAL is a recommendation. Use what fits your rifle. No, pressure is OK if you use mid jacketed load data. What powder?

[EMR]

Seat a tad deeper/shorter. OAL is a recommendation. Use what fits your rifle. No, pressure is OK if you use mid jacketed load data. What powder?

I was going for plinker loads and found on here several who recommended ~16gn of 2400. So with this I should be fine for pressure but if I ever wanted to make full power for hunting I’d like to make sure I’m good for later.

[Rcmaveric]

Bullet may be to big for the throat and its scraping. Slowly work the action to see when its getting the spots. If it gets the spots when close the action and you feel some resistance on the lever, then try you bullet .001 smaller. If you see it gets the flat spots during feeding, seat the bullet deeper.

[WALLNUTT]

Are the flat spots just the lands marking the nose of the bullet?

[EMR]

Bullet may be to big for the throat and its scraping. Slowly work the action to see when its getting the spots. If it gets the spots when close the action and you feel some resistance on the lever, then try you bullet .001 smaller. If you see it gets the flat spots during feeding, seat the bullet deeper.

The flat spots happen when the action closes. So the consensus is to seat it deeper. I’ll have to try this route when I get the chance.


Are the flat spots just the lands marking the nose of the bullet?

No idea. That’s what I’m assuming but came here hoping to get answers.

[EMR]

Nice looking cartridge.

What is your chamber dimensions? Also get a dowel rod and close the action. Insert the dowel rod and mark it at the muzzle. Insert your bullet into the chamber then hold it gently in the throat with a pencil. Now while holding the bullet in place, reinsert your dowel and mark it. Now measure that distance and write it down. I will normaly subtract .002 of that measurement and use that as my starting seating depth. Then you can load up dummy rounds and slowly seat deeper till the rounds cycle reliably.

I didn't see mention sizing the bullets. A chamber cast will tell you if the bullet needs sizing. If you powder coat it does change the dimensions of the bullet and requires measuring seating depth again. I use the Lee C309-150-RF for my 30-30 and it has different seating depths for greased or PC'ed.

Sorry I didn’t see your reply earlier. I haven’t casted the chamber yet but if you guys say i should then it’s a route I’ll be happy to take. I’ll definitely have to try your dowel method as well.

I use a lee push through sizer at .311. The bore slugs to 0.3082.

[EDG]

Just shoot 20 or so. I have shot bullets as much as .004 larger than groove diameter.

[GARD72977]

I would shoot them like they are. I like my cast loads to touch the lands.

[Motor]

Looking more closely at your photo it looks like you have plenty of room to seat deeper without the ogive being below the case mouth.

.311" should be good. I size all my boolits for .308" groove diameter .311

Seat your boolits so the point at which the diameter falls below .311 is just outside the case mouth and your problem will be corrected. ;)

Motor

ETA: Come to think of it for as long as the neck is, the 30-30 typically doesn't have much bullet beyond the case mouth when loaded with your standard tube magazine friendy projectile. It kind of looks like mostly casing but that's because most of the bullet is typically inside of the neck.

[gwpercle]

That little bit of powder coating scraped off should cause no problem , shoot a few and check for any leading/fouling, if none you are good. Set up in that manner it may be an accurate load.
If you have a round that chambers hard...be careful the case isn't extracted with the boolit still stuck in the throat...powder spills out and you have to get a rod to knock the boolit out. Don't make that boolit any larger...
For my 1970's model 94 30-30 I size the boolits .309 and lubricate with Lithi-Bee ...no powder coating. And get no leading and good accuracy
Gary

[Motor]

Just a another response to one of your earlier statements about worry over sizing and scraping PC.

Are you aware of the "hammer test" ? This is where you take one of your powder coated boolits and hammer it into a cube. When you are done your cube will still be powder coated.

So I doubt you have to worry about sizing scraping PC. ;)

Motor

[mdi]

Maybe I see things different, but that scrape looks pretty far back to be the lands. Perhaps the bullet is just scraping the chamber mouth on feeding. I see a continuation of the scrape on the case neck...

Of course my tri focals don't focus jes right all the time...

[Motor]

Maybe I see things different, but that scrape looks pretty far back to be the lands. Perhaps the bullet is just scraping the chamber mouth on feeding. I see a continuation of the scrape on the case neck...

Of course my tri focals don't focus jes right all the time...

If you read the OP's post above what you see in the photo is NOT a scrape. It's a flat spot that is reflecting the camera flash. I think he also said there are more of them around the boolit.

The "continuation" is more or the same flash. ;)

Motor

[EMR]

Thanks to all who replied!

Based on the several suggestions, I’ll try a few as-is and try some seated deeper. I was just originally worried about pressure issues but it seems to be unfounded thus far in this application.


Just shoot 20 or so. I have shot bullets as much as .004 larger than groove diameter.

It wasn’t the part that I’m over the groove diameter that worries me. It was the fact that I feared I was bumping well into the lands.


I would shoot them like they are. I like my cast loads to touch the lands.

If I may ask, what advantages do you see by touching the lands?


Looking more closely at your photo it looks like you have plenty of room to seat deeper without the ogive being below the case mouth.

.311" should be good. I size all my boolits for .308" groove diameter .311

Seat your boolits so the point at which the diameter falls below .311 is just outside the case mouth and your problem will be corrected. ;)

Motor

ETA: Come to think of it for as long as the neck is, the 30-30 typically doesn't have much bullet beyond the case mouth when loaded with your standard tube magazine friendy projectile. It kind of looks like mostly casing but that's because most of the bullet is typically inside of the neck.

When I get a chance I’ll try seating them deeper per yours and several others advice.


That little bit of powder coating scraped off should cause no problem , shoot a few and check for any leading/fouling, if none you are good. Set up in that manner it may be an accurate load.
If you have a round that chambers hard...be careful the case isn't extracted with the boolit still stuck in the throat...powder spills out and you have to get a rod to knock the boolit out. Don't make that boolit any larger...
For my 1970's model 94 30-30 I size the boolits .309 and lubricate with Lithi-Bee ...no powder coating. And get no leading and good accuracy
Gary

I feel like this is also sound advice. Since nobody is worried about over pressuring here I’m going to try as-is, and try searing deeper to find that sweet spot.


Just a another response to one of your earlier statements about worry over sizing and scraping PC.

Are you aware of the "hammer test" ? This is where you take one of your powder coated boolits and hammer it into a cube. When you are done your cube will still be powder coated.

So I doubt you have to worry about sizing scraping PC. ;)

Motor

You have a good point. They definitely pass the hammer test. As a beginner caster, I just felt that I read several comments stating if you size PC rounds too much, you’ll actually start to deform/shave the PC on the lands.


Maybe I see things different, but that scrape looks pretty far back to be the lands. Perhaps the bullet is just scraping the chamber mouth on feeding. I see a continuation of the scrape on the case neck...

Of course my tri focals don't focus jes right all the time...

What motor said below your comment seems to be accurate. They’re concentric around the circumference of the bullet and in person the brass is unscathed.

[Rcmaveric]

Pressures can be tricky to explain. But as far as seating depths, the deeper you seat decreases powder capacity and will raise pressures. The converse is true seating out longer, until you hit the lands. Once you hit the lands the bullet is an obstruction that pressure has to break loose, but if it jumps the lands then it all ready has momentum to pass through. Seating into the lands in theory increases accuracy by supporting the bullet upon ignition to help keep it concentric. A bullet launched straight, will travel straight withought being deformed and launch straight then it will fly straight. Think murphy's law, if a bullet has a chance to miss align then it will. My process is to size to throat to combat that. A perfectly fitted bore sized bullet that is supported and aligned would be as equally accurate. The down side to seating into the lands is it causes a hefty pressure spike that can deform you bullet and make it inaccurate. Seating into the lands prevented me from going over 1650 fps in 270 Winchester. the Lee bullet in my 30-30 seated into the lands would be too long to cycle, it catches on the feeding mechanisms. I quick rough calculation of my current load in 30-30 would give me an extra 9k psi if i single shoted them seated into the lands and would net me an extra 50ish fps. I prefer to gently launch my bullets instead of giving them a swift kick in the gas check. That 9k psi could be the different between an accurate undeformed bullet or an inaccurate deformed bullet.

As far as bullet size, a bullet sized larger will cause higher pressures. But the seating depths pressure rise or lower would be linear. A smaller sized bullet would take less pressure to get moving and be engrave/sized down/swaged (what ever you want to call it).

I don't think you will generate dangerous pressures unless you are loading full throttle hot Jacketed loads with over sized bullets seated into the lands. With a safe load recipes with lead bullets from a good source, like your Lymans, the worst you will do is over pressure the lead and loose accuracy and worster still lead your barrel. Do a load work up and start low. Keep your eyes open for signs of over pressures, leading, and inaccuracy. Takes notes as you go.

[mdi]

If you read the OP's post above what you see in the photo is NOT a scrape. It's a flat spot that is reflecting the camera flash. I think he also said there are more of them around the boolit.

The "continuation" is more or the same flash. ;)

Motor

So if the "camera flash" isn't what the OP's talking about, what is the problem? I see no "flats" on the bullet...

[EMR]

So toying with the dummy rounds following your guys’ advice I found a new problem for a different thread. I’ve got a failure to feed that occurs around 80% at all bullet COLs. After doing some research, I believe there may be a gouge in the left ejector guide causing the issue. There are no new marks on the bullet itself so I don’t think the nose of the cartridge is getting jammed.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180219/485bed1f07e2714a04937168a9517e7d.jpg

[Motor]

So if the "camera flash" isn't what the OP's talking about, what is the problem? I see no "flats" on the bullet...

He explained it above. The shiny spot in the photo is flat spot on the boolit where it engaged the rifling. It's shiny because it reflected the camera flash. Not because the powder coating was scraped off.

Motor

[Larry Gibson]

The PC may not have been scraped off which gives rise to the "shine" but the flat spot is made by the lands engraving the nose of the bullet. That is why EMR feels resistance during the last bit of chambering/closing the bolt. They are certainly safe to shoot that way as any rise psi's will be minimal if even measureable. The problem comes from using PC on a bullet not designed for it or not of the right dimensions, especially on the nose.

If the last bit of resistance isn't wanted the easiest solution is, as already mentioned, to simply trim the cases so that when crimped properly in the crimp grove the nose ogive is just off the leade of the lands.

[EMR]

Thanks for that reply, Larry. Once I get the feeding issue fixed I’ll try it at my original OAL and go from there.