How many pounds SS tumbling media is right amount?

[RogerDat]

I bought a used Frankford Arsenal Reloading Tumbler and it only had 4# of stainless steel pin media. I know it had 5# when new so I ordered a 2.5# refresher pack of Guntap pins for $20 from Amazon.

My question is how much of those new pins should I add? Any reason not to dump them all in so instead of 5# I have 6.5# of pins in my FART? Seems like having a pound and a half sitting on the shelf in reserve doesn't contribute to todays tumbling. Am I giving up anything other than the additional 1.5# of brass that won't fit in a full tumbler with the additional pin weight.

I guess if the same question would apply to any of the tumblers. Any downside to adding "extra" pins? Any benefits?

[jmort]

I run 5 lbs of stainless media in my FART
But I switched to the chips
Cut cleaning time to half or less
Regardless, 5 lbs of stainless media in a FART
I too would like to hear from anyone who has used more or less than 5 lbs of stainless
I have done zero of media and it gets the external to good and the interior to so-so but functional

[RogerDat]

At 4# it was sort of fussy about the amount of brass I could do and how fast. Or so it seemed to me. More 30-06 cases I added seemed to take way longer and not do as good of job. 100 45 ACP cases were no problem, 50 30-06 did good in less than 2 hours. Up that to a hundred plus rifle cases and the brass just wasn't as well cleaned and polished inside. Primer pockets either.

[jmort]

I have not reduced the media from 5lbs
There has to be a sweet spot, 4 lbs???, with the FART
I need to experiment as you are doing
Makes sense to not numb-nut it as I have been doing

[Drew P]

0#. I gave up on the pins and life is great. No media to deal with. I don’t mind dirty pockets that much I guess.

[swamp]

I just got a new one. Ran a load of 44 mag with the 5lbs of pins. Seemed to take too long and the primer pockets not quite clean. Next batch added an extra pound of pins and it did a better job all around.
swamp

[poppy42]

Are you talking about the Frankford Arsenal bibrating Tumblr that you normally use corn cob or walnut shells? Do you just substitute SS pins for corn cob? I was thinking of trying that but I didn’t know if you could use the vibrating tumbler.

[swamp]

It is the rotating drum for wet tumbling.
swamp

[swamp]

It is the rotating drum for wet tumbling.
swamp

[RogerDat]

Had 4# because previous owner only had 4# still in it.
I think it is time for some empirical data collection. I have 4# in there. I have some brass in sufficient quantity to repeat test with increasing amounts of pins so.....

How about I run the following tests. I picked one hour because part of the point of this is to have the brass clean quickly. I could make that 1.5 hours if folks think that would be more appropriate amount of time. All of this brass was already washed with a touch of citric acid and run through the vibrating tumbler with some crushed walnut so it's not horribly dirty but also not cleaned inside or in primer pockets.


With 4# of pins for one hour.

Bread loaf pan of 38 special.
250 count of 223 cases.


With 5# of pins for one hour

Bread loaf pan of 38 special.
250 count of 223 cases.


With 6.5# of pins for one hour

Bread loaf pan of 38 special.
250 count of 223 cases.


Maybe add some quantity of 7.62 x 39 for an hour to each test. Afraid I don't have any large necked rifle brass that needs polishing in quantity to do repeat tests. I do have enough 45.colt but I don't think that will be significantly different test than the 38 special.

Will use measured amount of dawn dishwashing soap and measured amount of lemishine. I'm thinking level table spoon of soap and teaspoon of lemishine. With drum full of water. I don't use a lot of lemishine to reduce chance of "red brass".

Comments or suggestions before I begin the testing? While people consider that question I'll go start depriming the 38 special brass. Was looking for an excuse to do that brass anyway. But being all stocked up on loaded rounds.... well now I have a reason to do it. :-)

[RogerDat]

It is the rotating drum for wet tumbling.
swamp Yes the rock tumbler style with water and soap.

[poppy42]

Thanks for the clarification that’s what I thought. I didn’t think ss would work in mine. But I wanted to make sure

[swamp]

I would be worried that the 223 brass would get into the 38 brass. With the pins I think that if that happened, you would never get the brass apart. Don't shoot 223. Will it fit into a 38 or 357 case?
swamp

[RogerDat]

I would be worried that the 223 brass would get into the 38 brass. With the pins I think that if that happened, you would never get the brass apart. Don't shoot 223. Will it fit into a 38 or 357 case?
swamp The calibers would be done in own batch. I think the pins increase the chance of a wedged case if anything can fit inside anything else. Unlike corncob or crushed walnut hulls the steel pins do NOT have any give to allow you to get the stuck inner case out. I had a .22 stuck inside a 38 not too long ago. The 22 had just slipped in along the way.

[NyFirefighter357]

https://i.imgur.com/MFeP8pN.jpg

[lightman]

It will be interesting to see your results. In a 15# drum I run about 6# each of brass and media and enough water to cover the brass about an inch. I set the timer for 2 hours unless the brass is really grubby. It seems like more media than brass is better than more brass than media.

[Bayou52]

For me, the ratio of pounds of pins to pounds of brass is roughly 1 to 1.

Bayou52

[ChuckO]

Don't have a FART, but rather a home built one. I've found that the chemicals used are much more important than the ratio of pins to cases. I use 1 tablespoon of automotive wash/wax and 1/2 teaspoon of citric acid for each gallon of water. I fill the tumbler with enough water to cover the cases and pins by about 1 inch.

Have had good results with 5# of pins down to 3# for about 8# of .45ACP cases. Tried once with no pins and found the cases to be clean, including the primer pockets, but not shiny.

[RogerDat]

I recently ran some pretty dirty brass from the 1930's and 40's and found it was taking a fairly long cleaning time. Over 2 hours. I may have been putting too much water in. Standing on end the water was a few inches above the brass and pins, nearly full. My thinking was metal is all in bottom since it sinks and water is the solvent and suspension agent. More is better, right?

Both my sample sizes will be outweighed by the pins. Unless I increase the number of cases. Wonder if I should?
250 count of 38 special weigh 2.5#
250 count of .223 weigh 3#

I have about 1250 .223 cases I could run through at one stage of processing. But these have all had primer pockets uniformed as part of removing primer crimp. I also have another batch with primer pockets not yet done that I think is around 700 or 800 cases. Won't all be the same brass but I could do 5#of .223 for all three tests.

I have around 2000 of the 38 special but would have to deprime them to get up to doing 5# (500 cnt.) cases for 3 batches of 38 special.

So two questions for sure. Less than full drum of water? And should the weight of cases be up around 5 or 6 pounds?

Secondary question from posts are the amount of lemishine? I generally use a teaspoon worth to a drum of water. I have pitchers so I can measure water but as I said before I don't currently I just fill drum up. I found table spoon of lemishine was too much if I decided to run the brass longer than a couple hours if it wasn't totally clean. The brass started shifting toward red (copper) if I ran it for a third hour.

I'm sticking with Dawn dishsoap because it is a pretty common wash agent used and suggested for wet tumbling. It is what I use and have on hand. That and dish washer detergent pods, which are low sudsing.

[NyFirefighter357]

I use several different medias in my F.A.R.T. but I use 8-10lbs of media fill the brass 1/2-2/3 of the way up tumbler, fill with water to bottom of opening add 2-3 drops dawn and 1/4 tsp of lemi-shine original. If the water is very dirty after an hr I replace the water and repeat. I have used the car wash with wax with the same results. I use SS pins, SS chips, carbon steel jewelers shot & old ball and roller bearings. I also tumble other things like wrenches and sockets cleans them up good. I even tumbled a tractor carb. in mine. If the stuff is real dirty I use hot water. Citric acid is just used to counter the hardness of water although more than needed will make an acidic bath that will clean brass it isn't needed. If you used dawn and distilled water it would work the same as adding citric acid to soften the hard water. The soap is what keeps the dirt in suspension, the media is what agitates the grime and burnishes the brass. The solution can only suspend so much dirt and will stop cleaning. This whole processes is called burnishing, jewelers have been using it for years to clean and polish jewelry. They use something called burnishing soap https://www.amazon.com/TUMBLING-POWDER-JEWELRY-TUMBLERS-BURNISHING/dp/B000HWNT04 and distilled water. I learned tumbling through my cousin a jeweler for almost 50 years. Burnishing soap & distilled water works for our needs as well but costs a lot more than a Dawn & tap water.

[Tenbender]

I have a Frankford and use 2lb or maybe 2.5. Cleans perfect for me.

[ulav8r]

Based on replies to several threads, you are probably using too much Dawn.

[RogerDat]

I have a Frankford and use 2lb or maybe 2.5. Cleans perfect for me.

is that brass weight or pin weight?


Based on replies to several threads, you are probably using too much Dawn Not sure who or which post you are referencing. Personally I was doing brass from the 30's and 40's that had sat around in a brass bucket for who knows how long. Brass itself is getting close to 90 years old.

I'm mostly wondering if more pins are better and if too many is just wasted weight. An extra pound of pins is about the same weight as 100 38 special cases so if the extra pound of pins doesn't help it clean better it is reducing the capacity or making motor work harder to no gain.

On really dirty stuff I too change the water. Although I also just soak in a bucket with some citric acid and dawn for 20 minutes before I start, then drain and rinse. Figure that cuts through some of the worst of the grunge. I would do that when I was using a vibrating tumbler and dry media too.

[OzzieDoc]

I've done a lot of experimenting with different pin/brass ratios.

I've concluded that about 1.2:1 pins/brass works best for me. This is similar to what others have reported.

Keeping in mind the FART's recommended maximum load of 30lb (including the drum) that works out to 10lbs pins and 8lbs brass.

[ulav8r]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?256229-Wet-tumbler-formulas post #7 "What you CAN use too much of is detergent. I think SSTM recommended 1/4 teaspoon Lemi-Shine and two TABLESPOONS Dawn concentrated dishwashing liquid, which is enough to do about 200 sinkfulls of dishes and foams to buggary in the tumbler. I use a teaspoon or maybe a little more Lemi-Shine (measured Justin Wilson style) and a "squirt" of Dawn or Lemon Joy amounting to about half a teaspoon. The object is to have just a few suds visible when you open the tumbler back up, the purpose is to be a surfacant and adding more is pointless and makes rinsing a pain." Post #44 from same thread "I have a frankford arsenal rotary,i use a teaspoon of lemi shine I use warm water the lemi dissolves better in warm water, on the dawn soap use a couple of drops per gal of water. the first time I ran a load I used about table spoon of dawn it was way to much had to really rinse them for ever. on the citric acid I used to clean brass by soaking it in it. I used to make it by dissolving it in hot water it didn't dissolve well in cold water. after it was made up it would work well cold or hot. "

[SlowBurn]

I've done a lot of experimenting with different pin/brass ratios.

I've concluded that about 1.2:1 pins/brass works best for me. This is similar to what others have reported.

Keeping in mind the FART's recommended maximum load of 30lb (including the drum) that works out to 10lbs pins and 8lbs brass.

I aim for a similar ratio: 7 lbs brass with 10 lbs pins in a 2 gallon drum with 1/2 tsp lemishine and 1 tbsp dawn in hot water for 3 hours
with large rifle brass, I think I should reduce the amount of brass to 6 lbs
with pistol brass, I think I could up the ratio

I think we want to aim for a mix of brass coated by a slurry of pins

g'luck!

[Grmps]

I made a 2-gallon tumbler, use 7.5 pounds pins, 1 tsp lemi shine and 3 squirts of dawn.
https://i.imgur.com/Uy4UWGY.jpg
rinse, soak in carwash/wax-- water solution, rinse lightly, towel dry then dry in a food dehydrator.
https://i.imgur.com/JPuyQIW.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/pNQJ5BS.jpg
Works for me

[RogerDat]

Well I have deprimed 1000 of the 38 specials. 500 more to go. I normally just do a squirt of dawn. Maybe a seconds worth. About like doing a sink full of dishes in the bad old days before automatic dishwashers. :-) I estimated that as around the amount that would fit in a regular table service spoon. Like you would use to take cough syrup. I think a measuring spoon might be bigger. I have some suds but not a whole lot. After a couple of fills and dumping of fresh water pretty much the end of suds when rinsing. I have to use some measure more accurate than "a squirt" in order to keep that variable consistent.

When I bought this used there where a few dish washing "pods" in the box. I tried one. Seemed to work ok but nothing special. No suds and easy rinse were the pods strong points. Just seemed like too much soap to me. Supposed to do a whole dishwasher worth in that little tumbler.

grmps - Is that a Harbor Freight dehydrator? How do you like it? I roll through a towel to remove some water and spread on another towel in front of a fan to dry. I'm thinking there might be room for improvement in that process. If I can find room to stash more gear on a shelf that is. So how long does the dehydrator take to dry brass?

[D Crockett]

as some of you know I like to make things. I got a paper folder from a print shop and made a tumbler out of it. it has a speed control and a on / off switch. I have been doing 22lr brass in it and I use about 2.5 lbs of pins and let it run for 2 hr. they come out like new brass. I have done 223 brass same amount of time and pins same results it looks like new brass. my drum is made of a piece of 4inch pvc pipe with a end cap and on the other end it has a screw in cap. I fill the drum about 3/4 full of brass add lemon shine and dawn dish soap works great D Crockett

[Drew P]

Nobody else skips the pins except me huh? Strange. It’s so nice to not have to worry about pins in your loads.

[OzzieDoc]

Nobody else skips the pins except me huh? Strange. It’s so nice to not have to worry about pins in your loads.

It's nicer not to have to deal with residual lead and carbon products in the primer pockets.

[Outer Rondacker]

Guess Ill share. I run a thumler's tumbler set up. Think its the original one. I run it 1/3 (rifle) to 1/2 full (pistol) with what ever brass I am looking to clean. 3 drops dawn sometimes 4. It has to be dawn. A spoon full of lemon shine or a splash of lemon juice 100%. I fill half way with warm water. Run for 20 mins rinse and run again with clean water for 5 mins. I have tried the car wash polish and all the other stuff on the rinse cycle and found it does leave a wax feeling. But I mostly skip it. My brass come out looking new.

I have let brass run for hours before when I had to take a call or help a friend in trouble. Does not look any better then the 20 min run. On the other side of the fence I have had some really bad on the ground for years range brass I cleaned up with two runs back to back.

I had stainless pins years ago. Many years ago and well we all have that one friend that needs what he read online. So he got my pins. I do not deprime my cases first. Some yes but most no since its all brass I have found on the ground or dumpster diving and it is nasty dirty.

On another note. If I do put not enough brass in the tumbler it does not seam to clean as well. I think it needs the weight of the other brass to make it rub on one another. Well that is what I do and works for me.

[RogerDat]

I have 250 more cases to deprime then I'll start running batches while increasing the amount of pins as I go, and keeping the dawn and lemishine the same amount. I seem to be hearing that full of water is less effective than keeping the brass and pins just barely covered on the bottom.

Any suggestions on level of water I should use in a FART?

[RogerDat]

First batch results 4# of SS pins. Water level as measured with drum standing on end was 2.5 inches to a max of 3 inches above brass and pins. I used my index finger to measure like a dipstick. Water level near knuckle of palm but not above the finger itself. When on it's side tumbling this left the brass, pins, and water as a slurry in the bottom of the drum.

The 38 special brass had all received my normal cleaning process with primers in. Before wet tumbling I de-primed while sizing already cleaned brass. For this wet tumbling I removed primers since one reason to use wet tumbling is primer pocket getting polished. The other for me is better results in less time. The 38 special brass was all Federal and all brass was already run through a dry media vibrating tumbler after a brief soak in bucket of water with a spoonful of citric acid, rinse & dry. Shine outside pretty decent, not shiny inside. Not horribly caked inside but dirty and not polished inside the case. This level of clean is certainly acceptable for reloading.

500 cases .38 special with a weight of 5 lbs. brass to 4 lbs. of pins. Brass had already had the pre-processing of wash and run through dry media. I used 1 Teaspoon of Dawn (approx. 3 second pour under light bottle squeeze) and 1/2 teaspoon of Lemishine. Both measured. Run time of 1 hour. Water was black as sin when I poured it out. Of 500 cases only 11 did not appear to be shiny inside and out, with shine inside primer pocket. Suds took a bit of rinsing but not too bad.

This made me wonder if I needed a whole hour of run time, less run time would be one reason to add more pins or chemicals, I also wondered if less soap might be just as effective while easier to rinse. So I added an extra batch to test. My last 300 of this batch of Federal brass. Less brass changed the ratio of brass to pins to being more pins by weight than brass.

300 cases .38 special with a weight of 3 lbs. to 4 lbs. of pins. Brass had already had the pre-processing of wash and run through dry media. I used 1/2 teaspoon of Dawn and 1/2 teaspoon of Lemishine. These I ran for only 1/2 an hour. They were clean and somewhat shiny inside the case, primer pockets were cleaner with some showing black smudges, primer pocket not shiny for the most part. Certainly much better than dry tumbel but not the full on clean and shine of inside case and primer pocket that 1 hour batch had. I think the 1/2 hour time amount would be too short for range brass or stuff that had gone through a few reloadings without being wet tumbled. It was easier to rinse when using less soap.

Next batch is going to be 500 cases of .223 with the 4# of pins and the soap reduced to the same 1/2 teaspoon for 1 hour. These are also dry tumble clean, trimmed and primer pocket uniformed so this is going to be about how clean is the inside of the case of small necked rifle cartridges.

I also found I have around 200 cases in 45 colt that are fairly grungy inside and out. And about 3 lbs. of range pick up rifle brass that I might test.

One issue with samples to test is I tend to clean brass as I get it. I like storing clean brass rather than dirty, the dust inside the case can be a source of elevating my lead levels so I wash and tumble to remove it from brass I store and handle. I also like getting it sorted and organized, or at least organized in a RogerDat loading bench sort of way, which is to say it ain't no library but the stuff is generally at least sorted by caliber.... mostly.... well ok, sometimes by rifle and pistol but a man has to prioritize his activities! Anyway that means I don't have much really awful brass to test different weights of pins effectiveness.

[RogerDat]

180 cases 45 Colt 3# brass to 4# pins. 1/2 teaspoon soap, 1/2 teaspoon Lemishine. Water 2.5 to 3 inch above contents with drum on end. Run time 1 hour. Start condition moderately clean outside, dirty inside, primer pocket dirty. Results were 6 cases that were range brass didn't come clean inside, primer pockets appeared mostly clean but not terribly shiny. Inside had a shine that was decent except for the ones that didn't clean. Color inside was a little less bright and yellow inside than some have been but still having all grunge removed and some shine.

I'm starting to wonder if I will find that time to get to a specific results will be longer with 4# of pins than it will be with 5# of pins. I am thinking that maybe more pins for the same hour of run time will do more polishing.

Next run will be the .223 then I'll add more pins and try to repeat with same recipe and times.

[RogerDat]

The 500 .223 with 5.5# of pins 1/2 teaspoon of Lemishine, 1/2 teaspoon of Dawn dish soap. 1.5 hours tumble and inside of cases are shiny. The pockets had been uniformed with cutting tool so fairly clean already.

I also did 500 .38 special cases with the same 5.5# of pins 1/2 teaspoon of Lemishine, 1/2 teaspoon of Dawn dish soap. One hour was sufficient but 1.5 hours results was most excellent, like new in all respects. 4 rejects due to not being clean inside.

What I have determined is ~ 5# of pins is a good amount, little more is better than a little less but don't see run time required getting much shorter with 4# of pins. Having the water a couple (2) inches above the brass and pins so that there isn't that much extra water beyond that required to tumble the brass seems to work better than having the drum full of water. Not a lot of soap is required and it is easier to rinse with less soap.