Mystery chambering

[DtheD]

I have an exellent shape Werndl rifle. Got it at a very nice price. It was sold as 11 X 58 mm "classic" Austrian rifle. I slugged it and it has a bore of .450 and groove of .470. Werndls are supposed to be .446 I thought. The barrel is in exellent shape, no pitting or obvious wear. I did a chambert cast and have about 58mm length but a 12.14 case mouth on it. What the heck is it chambered for? I was going to get dies and brass from Buffalo Arms but I can't see shoting a .446" boolet out of this barrel. I know a pure lead, hollow base boolet will obdurate but this seems extreme. Anyone have any idea what it may be? If not, any suggestions for a site or information that may get me casting for it? I love to get these old beauties back in action. I shoot an old Swiss Vetterli that is a hoot. Also two Dutch Beaumonts that are great to bring to the range. They love wheel weigh lead and not 20-1. Amazing at 100 yards and very suprising at 200. I have a Lee custom Swiss Vetterly group buy mold that is great. Not a plug for our new sponsor but all the Lee molds I have work great. Any info is appreciated. I'd love to get this 130 year old rifle back in acton.

[Pavogrande]

I have a Mack book and he lists the 11.15x58r Werndl 1877 as a rimmed bottlenck - It is also listed with several synonyms --

Rim .625 -- head .551 --- shoulder .543 --- neck .466 -- o.l 2.280 and bullet .441

Mack has an overwhelming list and very small print, but can be searched by bullet, head, and length -- If what you have differs from the above dimensions , I will try to search by your dimensions --

[DtheD]

Hello Pavogrande, Thanks for the reply. It is a rimmed bottleneck. The rim is .625". Head is .554". From what I can measure it is 58mm in length with a neck of .478" / 12.14 mm. The shoulder looks like it starts 38 mm from the base. The bore is .450 / 11.43 mm. Groove is .470 / 12.06 mm. I've Googled information and checked plenty of web info but still don't know what I have. Any ideas? I appreciate your help in my search. These measurements are from a weeks old cerrosafe casting. The bore measurements are from a pure lead slug. Thanks again for your information.

[Pavogrande]

Well -- from Donnelly -- 11.15 x 58 Werndl M77 Rimmed bottle neck -
Rim = .617 -- head/base = .545 --- shoulder dia = .536 -- neck = .446 OL = 2.27
rim thickness = .09 --- base to shoulder = 1.37 --- shoulder length = .168 ---
neck length = .715 --- bullet dia = .441
Make case from - 450 NE -
Slightly different than mack but in the ball park --

There is another werndl, M73, listed with .449 bullet but it is a straight case and shorter at 50mm also a m67 at 36mm
Is it possible your rifle is an older model rechambered for the newer cartridge? or converted from a rimfire?

I did not find any other werndl cartridges listed in the neighborhood of your dimensions other than those three -- There are other possibilities, like 11mm turk, but that seems unlikely.
I am wondering if it is a situation like 71 & 71/84 mausers that have slightly different bores yet the same basic cartridge ???

There was another reference in another book on making the 11x58 cartridge, but it used 28ga shotgun brass and the details made my head swim ---- but if you need them I will perserver -- If you have any other thoughts and want lookups, I have Mack, donnelly,and
howell's books and am glad to put them to use --- gb

[DtheD]

Pavogrande, Thanks for the additional information but it looks like for now at least, I have a wall hanger. Maybe sometime down the road I will be able to reload for it.

[Frank Savage]

I´ll resurect this old thread, since I´m putting back togehter once again what I have got to know about this rifle in the past.

So-the rifle in the initial post is almost surely one of those which were used for 1888 (IIRC) trials with "less smoking" powders and maybe even smokeless, alongside with trials of new Gewehr 88. Now I´m still not sure if the barrel is of a different material than standard bored Werndl rifles, BUT I would suppose for safety reasons that no, so ONLY use real BP in it. Most probably it´s 464 bore/470-471 groove diameter, plus-minus some fraction of thou. Definitely it´s factory made. These odd measures, as well as unpleasant results with std. cartridge is the reason that it´s in such a mint condition. I would love to have one of these. PLS post some photos.
Info about these test and about this batch of weirdly bored rifles is quite scarce even in Europe, around where th erifle was born.

Slug the chamber and first 1,5 inch of the bore, measure for mould as well as for needed neck wall thickness (probably the most important measurement) and decide, if the neck thickness you can get after fireforming the brass you maybe have is enought, or not.
You can get Bertram brass for standard 11,2x58R from Midway for something like 79 USD for 20 pcs, but the wall thickness after fireforming into your chamber may be well under what´s needed-so double check for it.
It´s usualy being said on english written boards to use 346 Win brass for 11,2x58R Werndl, but this will surely give you pretty thin and weak neck with this chamber.
The 450-400 Nitro Express cases are almost perfect fit in the body and rim area, maybe you´ll have to sand off about 0,002-3 in on the first 3/4 in above the rim (exp. on the 3"). You can form the bottleneck in the die (CH4D about 300 bucks for whole set, or RCBS for about 20 more IIRC), or you can make a holder for lathe chuck, squeeze the neck down to approx. size and placement by "pliers" with three rollers, aprox- lenght, fireform, cut to final lenght and ream correct inner throat dia if needed. For sure, this will give you almost everlasting cases, very unlikely prone to neck splitting.
I´m preparing for the second way to go, if the rifle which is going my way is in good enought shape to shoot and I´ll post some "how to" hopefuly.

[Maven]

Smokemjoe (Joe Wiest) had an article about the Werndl in the current Fouling Shot. You can send him a PM about it, as he seems to have worked most of the bugs. I'm sure he be glad to help.

[John Boy]

Also, can call Lee Shaver at The Single Shot Exchange. There have been several articles by William Roth Jr on variations of the Werndl's. They include pictures - schematics and dimensions

[JeffinNZ]

The great thing about this forum is the knowledge available has empowered me to take on any cartridge out there whilst being confident of finding a way to shoot it. Good to see you pursuing this old shootin' iron.

[Frank Savage]

If anyone took a note about 450 NE cases for 11,2x58R Werndl case forming, discard it. I don¨t know what the heck I was thinking about at the moment, but reality is that those cases have 1/25 in bigger dia. at the heel as well as on the rim. The post is edited to not bring more confusion.
The part about 450-400 NE brass is correct.