Winchester Model 1873 smoothbore "rifle"

[NMLRA Guy]

I BELIEVE Winchester made their 1873 "rifle", probably on special order, bored smooth to use 44 WCF (44-40) shot cartridges. Union Metallic Cartridge and Peters Cartridge Companies and likely others, sold commercial cartridges for such firearms. While they might be effective against snakes and vermin at very close range, I believe they were primarily used in shows like Buffalo Bill's Wild West. Bill Cody, himself, was a big user of same. From horseback in the arena at speed, with a companion beside him on another horse to throw glass ball targets aloft, Bill would smash a fair number of them sequentially with his rifle using shot. Such a cartridge would be effective for only a relatively short distance and would have little commercial value other than show business. My questions are: Did Winchester, indeed, do the boring work, and was the bore a true cylinder or did it have choke and has anyone here actually seen, owned, shot or measured one?
NMLRA Guy

[cwtebay]

I BELIEVE Winchester made their 1873 "rifle", probably on special order, bored smooth to use 44 WCF (44-40) shot cartridges. Union Metallic Cartridge and Peters Cartridge Companies and likely others, sold commercial cartridges for such firearms. While they might be effective against snakes and vermin at very close range, I believe they were primarily used in shows like Buffalo Bill's Wild West. Bill Cody, himself, was a big user of same. From horseback in the arena at speed, with a companion beside him on another horse to throw glass ball targets aloft, Bill would smash a fair number of them sequentially with his rifle using shot. Such a cartridge would be effective for only a relatively short distance and would have little commercial value other than show business. My questions are: Did Winchester, indeed, do the boring work, and was the bore a true cylinder or did it have choke and has anyone here actually seen, owned, shot or measured one?
NMLRA GuyNMLRA Guy:
There was one in a friend's family cabin I used to hunt out of. I can't say I measured or evaluated it critically, but I did use it for its intended use - as a camp meat gun. It did a great job on rabbits and squirrels and grouse and the like. I remember that it was very quiet, and that its range was quite limited. It looked the part of a typical camp gun, but was kept far more for function than form. The cartridges were reloaded using a tool similar to a Lee Loader - using 7 or 8 shot. Always thought that it was a cool firearm and looked forward to using it.
I think it was 32WCF however - now that I think of it. I'll phone him and see if I can learn more.

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[Ballistics in Scotland]

They may well have come from the factory in small numbers, possibly on special order only. They should then be valuable rarities, certainly too important to modify.

But if you have one, it is worth the cost of a factory letter from the Buffalo Bill Center. I never did it for my 1886, but eventually someone with a subscription entitling him to free details found out for me that, as I expected, Madis's date was correct and there was nothing more than my rifle being a normal 1886 with normal everything. I may do it for my button-magazine 1894, as spending most of its life in Australia might produce more information.

If you can be sure that an 1873 was smooth-bored by person or persons unknown at an unknown time, it doesn't seem out of the way to have it relined. A .32-20 could be rebored, but it might require replacement of other parts that I would prefer to avoid.

I would expect to find the smoothbored .44-40 a useful utility gun at close ranges, although whether anybody would buy a Winchester repeater for that purpose seems unlikely. I would think that most of the .44-40 shot cartridges sold were for occasional use in rifles.

[Outpost75]

The H&R break-open .44 shotgun I have dates from about the WW1 period and is choked about 0.015" at the muzzle.

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[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yes, and that H&R is exactly the sort of gun I would think most people would choose over the Winchester, if they just wanted a handy farmyard and cabbage-patch rifle.

[bob208]

they were made for shooting shows. a friend has a marlin 93 in .410

[Outpost75]

Yes, and that H&R is exactly the sort of gun I would think most people would choose over the Winchester, if they just wanted a handy farmyard and cabbage-patch rifle.

Exactly what I use mine for. Within 50-60 feet it is deadly.

[cwtebay]

Exactly what I use mine for. Within 50-60 feet it is deadly.Howdy - for you fellas that have these H & R's - are they chambered for the Gamegetter cartridge? I've seen a couple, but really am ignorant of them. Do you load for them?
Thank you!

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[Outpost75]

Howdy - for you fellas that have these H & R's - are they chambered for the Gamegetter cartridge? I've seen a couple, but really am ignorant of them. Do you load for them? Thank you!
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Mine has a 2" chamber, for the original .410 Eley cartridge, which was based on the German 12mm gas case.

I load for it using Starline 5 in 1 blank cases. First expand the cases with a .44-40 or .44 Mag. expander plug to make them more nearly cylindrical and flare them a little, so a Walters .45 over-powder card can be thumbed into the case mouth with the thumb and then pressed down against the powder with a 3/8" dowel. Using a card below the 410 shot cup is absolutely necessary to prevent powder leaking past the obturator which causes "bloopers" and could leave a wad lodged in the barrel. A Federal 410SC shot cup is then inserted and seated firmly. DON'T cut off the wad fingers. I explain...

Pour in about 1cc No.8 or smaller shot and then insert a Walters .36 card wad over the shot. If you don't have either the RCBS ".44 Game Getter Long Shot" OR .45 ACP Shot die sets, you can make your own roll crimp die by cutting 1" off the bottom of a Lee .308 Win seater die and inserting a blank Lyman or RCBS bullet lubricator top punch under the seating stem, adjusting it down to the midpoint of the shoulder in the cut-off .308 die, which positions the card squarely as you "bump" the case mouth of the 5 in 1 blank case against the shoulder of the die to form a professional looking roll crimp.

I don't trim off the protruding fingers of the .410 shot cup before loading the shot. Instead leave the shot cup protruding, fill the shot cup approximately FLUSH with the case mouth, judging the fill inside the shot cup. The protruding petals of the shot cup then support the insertion of a .36 cal. card overshot wad. When seating the top card inside the shot cup, using either the RCBS .45 ACP shot shell crimp die, or the older RCBS .44 Game Getter Long Shot, the seating stem presses the card flush with the case mouth as it is crimped. This is much easier than trimming the wad fingers and fooling around trying to get a good crimp. The excess plastic is trimmed off flush with a sharp knife afterwards, giving a well closed shell with professional looking appearance.

In a smoothbore barrel, the effective range of .44 shot loads is 15 yards in a cylinder bore and 25 yards from a full choke. Firing them in a rifled barrel disperses shot patterns, reducing small game range to about 25 feet. Loading shot larger than No. 8 reduces pellet count which defeats the small game purpose. I chose No. 8, 410 pellets to the ounce, so 1/3 ounce contains about 136 pellets. No. 7-1/2s would be only 116 pellets in a 1/3 oz. payload.

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[cwtebay]

Now THAT is an explanation!!!
Have you ever cast your chamber? Or is there a "saami-esque" spec for that cartridge?
Thank you!

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[Ballistics in Scotland]

It doesn't surprise me that you get pretty useful performance. It takes me back to the 9mm. rimfire Webley garden gun, which was the first firearm I ever owned without air coming into it. What surprised me with that one is that the patterns were pretty regular, considering the trouble getting good ones with larger shotguns, despite having only a frangible card top wad held by a slight turn over, and a simple card cup, presumably non-frangible, below the shot.

I doubt if choke is any advantage with those small shotguns, for 8 or 10 shot runs out of impact before it runs out of pattern. Choose larger shot for longer range, and the area they must cover is proportional to the square of the range, but the number of them to the ounce is inversely proportional to the cube of their diameter. I don't think any degree of choke quite gets you out of that one.

The 2in. .410, despite its modern-sounding nomenclature, is at least close to the age of any other shotgun centrefire, and probably preceded gas cartridges. It was quite a bit later before it was extended to the stupendous power of the 2½in. version. As a very general principle longer and narrower cartridges don't pattern quite as well. This is less important now that shot-cup wads and steel shot are so common, but the 3in. .410 is an extreme example, and I can't see why anybody would prefer it to a 28, except that more guns and cheaper guns are made that way. Quality .410 doubles only really appeared, in small numbers, with the 2½in., and the 2in. is a useful cartridge.

[dverna]

they were made for shooting shows. a friend has a marlin 93 in .410

Yes

The pistols used in the Wild Bill shows also used shot.

[Outpost75]

Now THAT is an explanation!!!
Have you ever cast your chamber? Or is there a "saami-esque" spec for that cartridge?
Thank you!

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This 2" version of the .410 pre-dates the formation of SAAMI by a generation. As near as I can tell it closely resembles a modern .410 chamber except for its 2" chamber length instead of 2-1/2" or 3". Bore diameter 2-1/2" ahead of the chamber is .425" cylindrical until you get 3" back from the muzzle, then choke cone constructs to .410" over a 2" distance and is cylindrical for the last inch at the muzzle.

You could approximate this chamber very closely by running a 2-1/2" .410 reamer in "short", then using a .38-40 or .44-40 reamer to cut the rim seat to fit the Starline 5 in 1 blank cases, as these differ from the .410 shotgun rim.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yes, other than length it is very close to modern .410 dimensions, although I would expect to find considerable difference ahead of the chamber in different guns. When I was young and naïve I didn't know why 2½in. cartridges had to be forced into the chamber of a borrowed Belgian .410. But I got away with it.

I have seen a good 2½in.2ga chamber rim job done with a 3in. reamer and a piece of high speed steel toolbit, ground to the bevelled shotgun rim shape, epoxied and hoseclipped into one groove. I'd use brass shim under the hoseclip, though.

[Outpost75]

Yes, other than length it is very close to modern .410 dimensions, although I would expect to find considerable difference ahead of the chamber in different guns. When I was young and naïve I didn't know why 2½in. cartridges had to be forced into the chamber of a borrowed Belgian .410. But I got away with it.

I have seen a good 2½in.2ga chamber rim job done with a 3in. reamer and a piece of high speed steel toolbit, ground to the bevelled shotgun rim shape, epoxied and hoseclipped into one groove. I'd use brass shim under the hoseclip, though.

I've fire-formed 9.3x74R brass in the .44 Shotgun chamber and loaded them in the same way with a full 1/2 oz. of shot and they work well in the original 2" chamber, the fired cases emerging somewhat bottle-necked.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I've fire-formed 9.3x74R brass in the .44 Shotgun chamber and loaded them in the same way with a full 1/2 oz. of shot and they work well in the original 2" chamber, the fired cases emerging somewhat bottle-necked.

That should work well, but it will be expensive unless you have a supply of neck-split 9.3x74R from another gun. A half-inch collar of K&S 15/32in. brass tubing (.7/16 ID) could be annealed, driven over a much cheaper .303 case and fireformed. I make that .472in. on a .455 head diameter, and some American .303 cases are a little undersized there.

[Multigunner]

Shooting glass balls tossed in the air was a common sport back then, not just for wild west shows or exhibitions.

Shot loads in the Winchester chamberings would have been effective snake loads then as they are now in pistol or rifle. They would also discourage varmints in the hen house without the muzzle blast of a full power load scaring the hens to death and endangering the rest of the farm animals with over penetration.

Back in the early 60's it was common to see store owners blasting away at pigeons that were over populating and making a real mess of the sidewalks. They usually used a .410 but it was obvious that a lighter charge would have been better for the purpose.

.45 ACP shot loads were occasionally used in riot control.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Annie Oakley used a smoothbore 1873 Winchester for her shooting aerial targets.
Cartridges of the world have a number of .44 shot cartridge listings.
I have a Stevens tip-up and a double Jansen & Sons both in .44 shot cartridge.

[Drm50]

I have had Stevens and Monarch marked 410/44 both ss break downs. Have seen smooth bore
44/40 73, but don't know if factory bored, I seriously doubt they are anything but straight bored.
Choke would have no effect on the 44shot cartridge. A 32wcf( 32/20) would be areal rarity, don't
believe I ever saw a factory loaded shot shell for that calibre.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

This 2" version of the .410 pre-dates the formation of SAAMI by a generation. As near as I can tell it closely resembles a modern .410 chamber except for its 2" chamber length instead of 2-1/2" or 3". Bore diameter 2-1/2" ahead of the chamber is .425" cylindrical until you get 3" back from the muzzle, then choke cone constructs to .410" over a 2" distance and is cylindrical for the last inch at the muzzle.

You could approximate this chamber very closely by running a 2-1/2" .410 reamer in "short", then using a .38-40 or .44-40 reamer to cut the rim seat to fit the Starline 5 in 1 blank cases, as these differ from the .410 shotgun rim.

I don't believe the choke you describe would constrict the pattern as much as its before and after diameters might suggest. The way choke works is by imparting an inward movement to the shot. Doing it in two inches instead of a shorter distance would be quite a gentle inward movement, and an inch further on, especially with more of the shot or shot sleeve contacting the bore than in a larger calibre, it wouldn't be moving inward so much. A lesser degree of constriction, beginning and ending closer to the muzzle, would probably tighten the pattern more.

Not that they necessarily made that long tapering choke for no reason. Maybe it was for greater safety and better alignment if someone used it with oversized ball, or even the rifle cartridge. That must have happened quite a lot.

[NMLRA Guy]

My thanks to all who posted here. Some pretty astute stuff, but so far, no answer to the basic question "was there choke in Winchester's 1873 barrels bored smooth for shot?"
NMLRA Guy

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Well nobody's perfect. If these were really special order items (and my only old Winchester catalogue is 1899, when the 1873 was something of a relic in the Winchester line), my guess is that buyers could have it with or without choke, and both may exist.