can you use 4F .....(FFFFG) black powder in a 45 colt?

[mozeppa]

it's all i have in black... well can you?

case full & compressed?

[RPRNY]

Not safe. The pressure spike is too quick.

You might get away with it but is "might" worth it?

[mozeppa]

but isn't that what they did with antique guns before smokeless?

hickock45 did it with 4fg in a glock and it would barely eject ...he said 3fg wouldn't cycle it.
800 fps at best.

so how much more pressure would there be in a modern ruger blackhawk?

[jcren]

Original load for 45 colt was usually 40 grains of 2f. 4f will burn much faster and allow much more powder in the case. Sounds iffy to me.

[RPRNY]

You asked, I answered. After that, it's up to you.

3Fg subs like Pyrodex and Triple 7 are available at the likes of Cabela's. Powder Inc. Buffalo Arms, and Grafs will all ship black powder.

[mozeppa]

You asked, I answered. After that, it's up to you.

3Fg subs like Pyrodex and Triple 7 are available at the likes of Cabela's. Powder Inc. Buffalo Arms, and Grafs will all ship black powder.

no smug answer intended...but i'd like a mixed review not just one.

somebody here is an expert and has tried and done this ...this is who my post is for.

[Edward]

In a word NOPE :bigsmyl2:

[725]

no.......................

[kens]

What gun?
black powder is very forgiving on pressures ( as compared to smokeless)
I have have shot some of the metallic calibers with a full case of FFFFg to no ill effect.
I respectfully disagree with all the naysayers here....that is, if it is a solid firearm in good, shootable condition.
To those who say that .45LC was originally loaded for FFg, I say,,,,,prove it.
FFg is for large caliber rifles and shotguns, not pistol.
Pistols were loaded with FFFg, and if it is good solid arm, it will take FFFFg.
Gee Whiz guys, we're not talking about a full case of Bullseye here, it is holy black.
the post by jcren is total incorrect. I'm sorry to be that way, but it is what it is.

[Boogieman]

Didn't Ruger ok 4f in the Old Army? The Lyman Black powder Handbook listed loads for C&B revolvers using 4f In an 1860 Army a cylinder full , 28gr. ,under a 155gr. bullet pressure was 8,480 LUP

[mozeppa]

so how much more pressure would there be in a modern ruger blackhawk?

in my op.

[vrh]

I have shot BP rifles and pistols for more than 40 yrs. I stay to the old list of 4F priming, 3F for pistols and some small caliber rifles, 2F for 50 cal and above. 1F for cannons.
Now I have shot 3F in my 54 cal rifle. I did that by reducing my normal 2F load by 10 %.

[Larry Gibson]

No.

There has always been an admonishment from days of old to use 4f for priming only (flintlocks) as it is dangerous to use in MLs or BP cartridges. I would suggest heeding that old warning.

[quail4jake]

I'm not a fan of dogma but what benefit comes from this risk? The old "rule" is never use FFFFg in the breech.[smilie=s:

[longbow]

Larry:

I have always heard the same thing about 4f and it seems to be "common knowledge" but has anyone ever pressure tested to determine just what pressure 4f would actually produce?

I have searched the internet for that information without success.

You have pressure testing equipment. Would you consider testing a cartridge loaded with 4f starting light then working up to see just what pressure is generated and if it does in fact produce dangerously high pressure?

I ask because I have read and been told that a person cannot load enough BP into a muzzleloader to cause it to blow up because not enough of the powder could burn to generate enough pressure to blow up the barrel. This seemed to be "common knowledge" when I started shooting muzzleloaders though I certainly have not tried to see what happens.

I do have a copy of The Complete Black Powder Handbook by Sam Fadala and in his "safety" section he did test a barrel with large loads of BP and was not successful in destroying the barrel until he loaded two Minies over a large charge of BP with an air gap between powder and Minies.

So it went like this:

- test gun built by Dale Story
- barrel of drawn steel
- .58 caliber barrel 1" across the flats and 36" long with 1:72" twist
- rifling 0.010" deep with groove to groove measurement of 0.60" leaving 0.020" barrel wall at the flats

He worked his way up to a charge of 500 grs. FFFg of BP with three 600 gr. Minies loaded (1,800 grs. total) with no measurable expansion in the barrel (mic'd after each test while working up).

He finally tried a 400 gr. charge under two 600 gr. Minies separated from the powder with an air gap. That did it. He states the exploded barrel had a bulge at 19" from the breech but doesn't state what the air gap distance was (400 grs. of powder makes for a long column).

Unfortunately he did not have pressure testing equipment so we do not know what pressure was generated as he worked up.

So, in Sam Fadala's test he was unsuccessful in blowing up a relatively large bore barrel with relatively thin walls with a fine grade of BP under a payload of three bullets if loaded with bullets touching powder. This matches the "common knowledge" that was passed on to me and many others though it certainly isn't very scientific or definitive.

I realize that 4f powder is finer than 3f and burns faster than 3f but just how much more pressure does it generate for a given charge under a given bullet weight compared to 3f? Lots of people run 3f powder in large bore muzzleloaders and cartridge guns with no ill effects even though 2f or f is recommended. .45-70 is a common cartridge that comes to mine and many load 3f in it with no problems.

Anyway, just curious if anyone has ever tested the pressure differences so we get a definitive answer instead of "common knowledge".

Longbow

[vzerone]

Longbow this link will help a little. Unforturnately they didn't test FFFFG.

http://www.texas-mac.com/Black_Powder_Pressure_Curves_and_Bullet_Obturation .html

[swheeler]

Longbow this link will help a little. Unforturnately they didn't test FFFG.

http://www.texas-mac.com/Black_Powder_Pressure_Curves_and_Bullet_Obturation .html

3F is the third trace down. I have a pound of Goex 4f that will last me a lifetime as pan powder, maybe two as last time out I used 3f in barrel and pan.

[vzerone]

3F is the third trace down. I have a pound of Goex 4f that will last me a lifetime as pan powder, maybe two as last time out I used 3f in barrel and pan.

Thanks for pointing that out I meant FFFFG and edited it.

[swheeler]

No problem, thought maybe you missed it.:2 drunk buddies:

[vzerone]

No problem, thought maybe you missed it.:2 drunk buddies:

Yeah, too many F's. They even have more F's beyond the FFFFG.

[jcren]

What gun?
black powder is very forgiving on pressures ( as compared to smokeless)
I have have shot some of the metallic calibers with a full case of FFFFg to no ill effect.
I respectfully disagree with all the naysayers here....that is, if it is a solid firearm in good, shootable condition.
To those who say that .45LC was originally loaded for FFg, I say,,,,,prove it.
FFg is for large caliber rifles and shotguns, not pistol.
Pistols were loaded with FFFg, and if it is good solid arm, it will take FFFFg.
Gee Whiz guys, we're not talking about a full case of Bullseye here, it is holy black.
the post by jcren is total incorrect. I'm sorry to be that way, but it is what it is.

"213800"

While I don't know anyone who was actually there, the general concesus, including this quote from a guns & ammo rag, is that the original load was 40 grains 2f, later reduced to 30 by the army for more controlable shooting, and then changed to 3f to regain velocity.

[sharps4590]

Can it be done, sure. Is it optimal? I doubt it. In a Ruger I doubt anything remarkable would happen.

[Petrol & Powder]

can you use 4F .....(FFFFG) black powder in a 45 colt?

Sure, one time :kidding:

I'm really just kidding, don't try it.

Remember, You don't need a parachute to skydive but you do need a parachute to skydive twice.

[Good Cheer]

Eh, sounds kinda f'y to me.
:rolleyes:

But seriously, I've read reports about percussion revolver cartridges that were produced with what dang near amounted to fast burn flash powder. Like maybe they did that because the pointy projectiles being used to get through layers of outdoor wear were long enough to take up a whole lot of powder space, so they used a smaller amount of faster burning powder. So maybe black powder cartridge arms could also be made to work OK with smaller amounts of faster burning powder... but then there would be air space in the case...
Reckon I know that I don't know.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I remember reading that Elmer Keith once blew the loading gate off a Colt SA using the old load of 40 grains of black powder in a Colt 45. He did say it was a balloon head case but I don't think he mentioned whether the powder was FFF or not. The point being, Many guns have been damaged using black powder. I saw it happen several times in over thirty years of muzzle loading competition. It ain't talcum powder.

[freedom475]

I remember reading that Elmer Keith once blew the loading gate off a Colt SA using the old load of 40 grains of black powder in a Colt 45. He did say it was a balloon head case but I don't think he mentioned whether the powder was FFF or not. The point being, Many guns have been damaged using black powder. I saw it happen several times in over thirty years of muzzle loading competition. It ain't talcum powder.


Elmer's "accident" was caused from him milling the top driving band off of a 45-90 mould and then sized it down to make a heavy for caliber 45 colt bullet.

I know there is no reason to challenge "good sense" so we see a lot of internet parroting being shared with this thread..... for good reason because why risk your eyesight or a good revolver?.

I have read that many company's Cap&Ball paper cartridges, were in fact loaded with fine grain "Pistol" powder that we now call 4ffff today.

I have burnt close to a full 25lb case (maybe 2?) of Graphs 4ffff through my cap&balls and can safely say that the 4f is superior in EVERY way in a Remington58 Pietta.

FWIW, my 45colt conversion cylinder load in the Rem58 is 16gr 2f Olde E and a 38special case of CreamOWheat behind a 155gr EPP-UG bullet for 765fps and deadly accuracy. It's a great "woods" round that doesn't hurt your ears if you want to take a shot or 2 at targets of opportunity.

I shot this load today at a 4ft floating log down in the pond at around 300 yards away. First shot didn't quite make the water, so I raised the rest of the front site and hit the edge of the log on the second shot!

A full 45colt case of 2f OE will send the little epp-ug pill out of the barrel at 1205 fps!! But don't plan on hitting much with this load..LOL

I spoke with the the ballistics tech from Western about 4f in the C&B pistols and it is completely safe to use. BUT when the powder column reaches 3 inches in length their testing proved that 4f powder became VERY erratic!!!,, Fully capable of blowing even a heavy Sharps or Hawken barrel wide open!

Good luck and BE SAFE!!! It's sure a major buzz-kill when things go south for foolish risks.:drinks:

[Don McDowell]

it's all i have in black... well can you?

case full & compressed?

Case full, and compressed probably not. Enough to fill the case to the base of the bullet will likely be the best bet.
In the meantime find a can of 3 or 2f.

[John Boy]

They even have more F's beyond the FFFFG
Swiss calls it Null-B. Here's a comparison of the grain (mesh) sizes ...

Swiss FFFFg
30 Mesh - Trace Hold
40 Mesh - 68.30% Hold
50 Mesh - 28.9% Hold
60 Mesh - 1.56% Hold
70 Mesh - Trace Hold

Swiss Null-B
1.096 - Density
40 Mesh - Trace Hold
50 Mesh - Trace Hold
60 Mesh - Trace Hold
70 Mesh - Pass
80 Mesh - 99.9% Hold

I use Swiss Null-B to charge 22LR's reloads. 4.5gr yields a 1030 fps velocity

[kens]

I would like to see pressure tests.
Larry, are you out there?

I don't think anything spectacular is going to happen with 4f. But, I would truly like to see pressure tests.

[Don McDowell]

I would like to see pressure tests.
Larry, are you out there?

I don't think anything spectacular is going to happen with 4f. But, I would truly like to see pressure tests.

Find one of the Lyman Blackpowder Handbooks , the edition before Fadala got involved. They have 4 f data for most of the capnball revolvers listed.

[Chill Wills]

213897

Yes. Still in the cartridge revolver...... I'm not sure enough to try it with out some pressure tested data to go by. 4F Swiss and 4F Elephant would have very different pressures too.

[Don McDowell]

Chills if you look on the next page they ran Goex 3 and 4f with the bullet, max charge of 28 gr of each, the 3f produced 861 fps with 8820 lup, 4f; 885 fps, with 8480 lup.

[Chill Wills]

That 4F lower velocity and pressure is a head scratchier for sure.
I posted the page picture I did because it was already uploaded here. This subject makes the rounds regularly.
OT
Did you make the silhouette match today? We did not go. My son had to get caught up with school and the roads this afternoon turned out to be nothing I want to drive on around these parts.

[Don McDowell]

No I didn't even try, roads to slick, and the temps here were bitter cold. Might try this next Saturday tho, need to give that Hepburn a good run to see if the triggers are going to hold up.

[Larry Gibson]

I would like to see pressure tests.
Larry, are you out there?

I don't think anything spectacular is going to happen with 4f. But, I would truly like to see pressure tests.

Yes, I'm out here. I don't have any 4F to test and not sure how I'd go about it safely.........more cogitation is in order.......

[Wayne Smith]

anyone have an Encore 45Colt barrel? If I had one I'd lend it to you, Larry.

[oldred]

Not saying one way or the other about whether it's safe or not because my opinion is just that, an opinion, but years ago I shot 4F in a Ruger Old Army (a lot of it!) because the dealer said it was made for it and I didn't know any better at the time. In fact except for the one LB of Pyrodex that came with the pistol when I bought it 4F was mostly what I shot in it, I did use some 3F I had for my 45 TC rifle but very little of it. At the time the reasoning was that since the Old Army was based on the Black Hawk it should easily handle any pressures generated by BP and the 4F should give a boost to performance. I have learned a lot since those days and no longer "assume" such things but still the 4F shot just fine with no problems at all, actually I saw little improvement in performance and could hardly tell the difference between the 4F and 3F as far as recoil or muzzle blast.


Again I am NOT saying it is safe but I saw no problems at all with it.

[John Boy]

I don't think anything spectacular is going to happen with 4f. But, I would truly like to see pressure tests. Let's start from the beginning: all final grades of black powder come out of the same mill formulation > then to the press cake > then broken up > then through the sieves for specific grading based on the the size of the screens > then polished!
Therefore, A FFFFg is the same powder as a Fg - FFg - FFFg. The only difference is that FFFFg will have a faster burn rate due to the smaller grain size with a immaterial increase in fps than the burn rate of the other grades of powder
So don't sweat the small stuff about pressure because BP is not nitroglycerine based powder like smokeless powders with an increase of powder charge = greater pressure curve. Black powder is a weak powder!

[EnglishTom]

Hi, im new to BP cartridges too so finding this very interesting. My thoughts on this are as follows..... lets take a 45-100, designed to take 100G by Vol of powder to give the needs push, to fill the case so theres no air space 2f was used and a matching measure setting. Now if we use 1f we no long have 100GbV in the case if we use the 2f measure it would need compressing to get it all in. Now if we did the same with 4f we go the other way, will fill much less of the case and so give air space. Hope that make some kinda sense... is it safe , I don't know, but not sure I want to find out,,,,,,, but hey that 4f makes great firecrackers

[indian joe]

What gun?
black powder is very forgiving on pressures ( as compared to smokeless)
I have have shot some of the metallic calibers with a full case of FFFFg to no ill effect.
I respectfully disagree with all the naysayers here....that is, if it is a solid firearm in good, shootable condition.
To those who say that .45LC was originally loaded for FFg, I say,,,,,prove it.
FFg is for large caliber rifles and shotguns, not pistol.
Pistols were loaded with FFFg, and if it is good solid arm, it will take FFFFg.
Gee Whiz guys, we're not talking about a full case of Bullseye here, it is holy black.
the post by jcren is total incorrect. I'm sorry to be that way, but it is what it is.

friend of mine runs FFFF in a 357 magnum case through a colt lightning repro - a nice solid load no problems - 26 grains I think . 158 grain LEE boolit on top

[indian joe]

Let's start from the beginning: all final grades of black powder come out of the same mill formulation > then to the press cake > then broken up > then through the sieves for specific grading based on the the size of the screens > then polished!
Therefore, A FFFFg is the same powder as a Fg - FFg - FFFg. The only difference is that FFFFg will have a faster burn rate due to the smaller grain size with a immaterial increase in fps than the burn rate of the other grades of powder
So don't sweat the small stuff about pressure because BP is not nitroglycerine based powder like smokeless powders with an increase of powder charge = greater pressure curve. Black powder is a weak powder!

Black powder is a weak powder ? .......hmmm - under normal circumstances - yeah...............
This ole cowboy blew the nipple out of a 3/4 inch wall post hole gun with a half charge of powder - just shredded the metal and tore the nipple right out - lord knows how far up it went but it landed on the tin roof of my machinery shed about twenty seconds after it went off - plink!- tinkle tinkle - plop - rolled right off the roof and dropped on the dirt not twenty feet from the liftoff position - couldnt repeat the whole thing in a million years - ok where wuz I ? Yeah weak blackpowder ? If you give it somewhere to get out - yeah its weak - but lock it up tight enough - barrel obstruction - whatever - it will still get out - so my prediction here is - pour a hundred grains of black down a caplock barrel - plug the barrel solid (I mean solid - no escape route at all) touch it off (from behind the nearest tree) and you will blow the nipple clear out of that gun - probably the nipple drum too - and if all that is really well built you probably split the barrel - blackpowder under the right (or wrong) circumstances is well capable of generating over 100,000psi. Never assume that you cant come to grief with blackpowder!

[indian joe]

What gun?
black powder is very forgiving on pressures ( as compared to smokeless)
I have have shot some of the metallic calibers with a full case of FFFFg to no ill effect.
I respectfully disagree with all the naysayers here....that is, if it is a solid firearm in good, shootable condition.
To those who say that .45LC was originally loaded for FFg, I say,,,,,prove it.
FFg is for large caliber rifles and shotguns, not pistol.
Pistols were loaded with FFFg, and if it is good solid arm, it will take FFFFg.
Gee Whiz guys, we're not talking about a full case of Bullseye here, it is holy black.
the post by jcren is total incorrect. I'm sorry to be that way, but it is what it is.

friend of mine runs FFFF in a 357 magnum case through a colt lightning repro - a nice solid load no problems - 26 grains I think . 158 grain LEE boolit on top

[Chill Wills]

Not saying one way or the other about whether it's safe or not because my opinion is just that, an opinion, but years ago I shot 4F in a Ruger Old Army (a lot of it!) because the dealer said it was made for it and I didn't know any better at the time.
Again I am NOT saying it is safe but I saw no problems at all with it.

Good morning oldred,

The dealer may have been telling customers that because of the following, page 10 of the Ruger Old Army instructions.

The “Old Army” is a muzzle loading, percussion revolver intended solely for use
with Black Powder. It should never, under any circumstances, be loaded with any
type of smokeless powder as the result could be damage to the revolver and
injury to the shooter or bystanders. Black Powder is usually classified by powder
grain size, with “Fg” being the largest granulation and “FFFFg” being the
smallest granulation normally available. Any granulation within these gradations
could be used in the “Old Army”; normally, however, “FFFg” is the preferred
grain size. Replica black powder such as Pyrodex may be used, so long as
suggested loading data is strictly adhered to.

I think you were on very safe ground with the Ruger and a round ball. HOWEVER, some other revolver or some cartridge revolver, who knows?
I read "any granulation within these gradations" to include 4F to be in any amount that can be loaded under the round ball.

[John Boy]

...blackpowder under the right (or wrong) circumstances is well capable of generating over 100,000psi.
Joe - Statements like this deserve a reference source! Post the reference source or retract your post

Hi John: Pedersoli approves 29.000 psi loadings with BP or
smokeless powders.

This is correct and official for our Sharps, Trapdoor and Rolling
Block models.

All these guns are proof tested at about 33,000 to 35,000 psi using
American Federal brand smokeless ammo , at the Italian national Proof
House in Gardone Italy.

Properly loaded with correct garde BP you will not exceed allowed
safe limits but under certain conditions FFFg powder has been known
to exceed the limits a bit.

[John Boy]

indian joe - your last activity on the forum was:
Last Activity - Today 03:49 PM and am sure you looked at this thread after my post to you at 02:29 PM

You have to understand, there are more uneducated readers than you that unfortunately may believe your psi value is valid. which it isn't
So ... Post the reference source or retract your post!

[indian joe]

indian joe - your last activity on the forum was:
Last Activity - Today 03:49 PM and am sure you looked at this thread after my post to you at 02:29 PM

You have to understand, there are more uneducated readers than you that unfortunately may believe your psi value is valid. which it isn't
So ... Post the reference source or retract your post!

did you read my post ? I talked about a plugged barrel - I took my splintered post hole gun to an engineer I knew (out of curiosity because I was struggling to believe what I was loooking at) asked his opinion - which he gave as "in excess of 100k psi would be needed to do that" - I dont have a picture of it - and I didnt get a letter of certification off him - do you seriously believe its possible to splinter a sound barrel with pressure in the 40000psi range ? - black powder has splintered more than one barrel - when there is an obstruction! we not talking about normal loads here at all .

[KCSO]

Been there done that it fouls out in 3 shots and shows flattening of the primers. this is why the british had to use a special Metford rifling in the 303 with BP loads. By the way they got 1800 fps from a 215 grain bullet with black powder with an estimate of 30,000 PSI. The 45 acp case won't hold a decent load of black, the colt case holds enough to exceed the 16,ooo it was designed for.

[John Boy]

indian joe ... 19th Century British experimenters conducted tests with black powder and recorded pressures in excess of 100,000 psi. Results verified by the navy. In a closed bomb which a firearm is not!
For your blasting post hole digger, recommended charge is 3/4 of an ounce = 328 grains (about a shot glass of powder)
And again, the digger is a closed bomb device - not a firearm. Further, the topic of the thread is FFFFg powder in a 45 Colt that if the case was an old balloon head case, could only hold 40grs of powder!

OK, 1st of all in a revolver or long arm to create these 100K pressures, one would have to pour and pack the barrel, then plug the barrel and pull the trigger with a 20 foot rope
So respective to firearms and the 100K pressure ... it's within the definition of Apples & Oranges
Thanks for posting you talked to an engineer about your post hole digger about the pressure

[vzerone]

indian joe ... 19th Century British experimenters conducted tests with black powder and recorded pressures in excess of 100,000 psi. Results verified by the navy. In a closed bomb which a firearm is not!
For your blasting post hole digger, recommended charge is 3/4 of an ounce = 328 grains (about a shot glass of powder)
And again, the digger is a closed bomb device - not a firearm. Further, the topic of the thread is FFFFg powder in a 45 Colt that if the case was an old balloon head case, could only hold 40grs of powder!

OK, 1st of all in a revolver or long arm to create these 100K pressures, one would have to pour and pack the barrel, then plug the barrel and pull the trigger with a 20 foot rope
So respective to firearms and the 100K pressure ... it's within the definition of Apples & Oranges
Thanks for posting you talked to an engineer about your post hole digger about the pressure

I read where the U.S. Navy did test and got BP well over 200,000 psi!

[John Boy]

In WWII, The smallest bomb used by U.S. aircraft was a 100-pound practice bomb with a 5-pound (35,000 grain) charge of black powder; yep, I'll buy well over 200,000 psi

[bsa7x57]

I have a Uberti made SAA and loaded up some 40gr 4f just for fun. It didn't bother the revolver at all but I have to admit that was the snappiest recoil I've ever felt from that gun. I shoot smokeless as well and load max loads generally but I've never had recoil like that 4f load from any of them. It was great fun but I don't think I'd make a habit of it.

[indian joe]

3F is the third trace down. I have a pound of Goex 4f that will last me a lifetime as pan powder, maybe two as last time out I used 3f in barrel and pan.

good info ....BUT ....I think woulda been a lot better if they
1) loaded same amount of black for each grade - instead they increased the grains as the grade gets hotter (60 Fg, 62FFg, 65 FFFg) -- why do that unless to twitch the result
2) loaded the smokeless with the same boolit - instead we get a 500grain over the black and a 410 over the smokless -- again why ? unless to skew the result in favour of the somkeless?
Its helpful but doesnt cut it as scientific data

[Rafe Covington]

I use 4F in a Uberti SA in 38-40 WCF, has a snappy recoil (like bsa7X57 said also).i have loaded some for my Uberti 1873 rifle in same caliber, have not shot them yet. I started using 4F because could not find any 3F at the time, consider that a lucky break for me. JMHO

Rafe

[Larry Gibson]

Decided to give pressure testing some 4f loads in the 45 Colt......checked several LGSs today.....no BP of any f available........:cry:

I'll keep looking.......

[kens]

Larry,
I am looking forward to some real pressure data on BP.
It would be really cool to see the pressures of 2f, 3f, and 4f, in real data.
I have read that BP can run up some certain pressure, then just top out no matter if you load more powder.
But how does one really know?
Thanks

[missionary5155]

Longbow this link will help a little. Unforturnately they didn't test FFFFG.

http://www.texas-mac.com/Black_Powder_Pressure_Curves_and_Bullet_Obturation .html

Good morning
If you look closely at the info in the link the smokeless load used a lighter bullet... That to me does little to validate the findings. But the link does show a good comparison for the different BP's.
Also it should be considered "what powder brand" are we looking at. Goex 3F is not equal to Swiss 3F. Far as I am concerned Goex 3F is needed to produce near equal velocities with 120 year old velocities determined back then with the pendulum research. Once again other brands of better BP get to the same velocities using the same grades.
So would I use 4F in a muzzle loader... I find Goex 3F to be the fastest I would use. Burns clean and near matches the "listed loads" of 150 years ago from pendulum tests. Good enough for me.

Mike in Peru

[John Boy]

Not mentioned in any of the posts is - fouling in the bore using FFFFg powder in a 45 Colt.
This powder granulation will produce a hard foul in the bore - the bigger the caliber the more the foul and hard

[PWHeyes]

Does anyone have any thoughts about using FFFg powder in a Smith & Wesson Schofield (.45) revolver made in 1876? I normally charge the cartridges with 28 grains (by volume) FFg powder. If using BP substitutes, I reduce the load a bit and use the FFg (Pyrodex RS, Triple 777 FFg). However, I have some extra FFFg black powder (and corresponding substitutes) bought for a different pistol, which I no longer load for. Would it be safe for the old gun to use the FFFg powders? Does one reduce the load? If the load is reduced too much, so that the powder is no longer compressed, won't that lead to possible dangerous pressure build-up? Any answers or suggestions would be most welcome.

[toot]

remember that T-7- TRIPPLE -T is 15 % more powerful per grains than real BP, so be careful when loading!

[toot]

sorry I meant TRIPPLE -7 not TRIPPLE-T. my bad!

[greenjoytj]

Smith & Wesson Schofield (.45) revolver made in 1876?

I would research to see if that old revolver is in a condition that make it too valuable to shoot.

[Castaway]

Toot, think you meant volume, not grains

[super6]

Black Powder Grades, Sizes and Mesh
This chart contains black powder grain sizes of commonly used black powders as well as a comparison of Blasting and Sporting grades.

Black Powder Grades & Equivalent Sizes (in mm)
Sporting Grades (G) Grain Size (in mm) Blasting Grades (A) Grain Size (in mm)
1FA 8.0-4.0
Cannon Grade 4.76-1.68 2FA 4.76-1.68
1FG 1.68-1.19 4FA 1.68-.84
2FG 1.19-.59
3FG .84-.29 5FA .84-.297
4FG .42-.15 7FA .42-.149
Meal D .42
5FG .149 Fine .149


Commonly used Black Powder Grain Mesh Sizes

GRADE MESH RANGE
FA 3 - 5
2FA 4 - 12
3FA 10 - 16
4FA 12 - 20
5FA 20 - 50
6FA 30 - 50
7FA 40 - 100
Meal D + 50
Fine Meal + 100
X-Fine Meal +140
Cannon Grade 4-12
1FG 12-20
2FG 16-30
3FG 20-50
4FG 40-100
5FG +100

Here is another for those inclined to look.

[Dumpy]

Go on u-tube and watch Everything Black powder about blowing up black powder barrels . Dixie gun works welded the end of a barrel shut and filled it with black powder & they say it didn't blow up. I have heard a ton of horror stories about cataclysmic events, but I have never seen one or evidence of one. I have only seen them blow up ML barrels with smokeless powder. I make my own BP so mine isn't as screened as the Factory stuff.

[Dumpy]

Go on u-tube and watch Everything Black powder about blowing up black powder barrels . Dixie gun works welded the end of a barrel shut and filled it with black powder & they say it didn't blow up. I have heard a ton of horror stories about cataclysmic events, but I have never seen one or evidence of one. I have only seen them blow up ML barrels with smokeless powder. I make my own BP so mine isn't as screened as the Factory stuff. You would think that there would be a ton of blown up barrels from the civil war but I haven't seen any evidence of any, Has anybody else?

[Hondolane]

The cost of a can of 2 or 3 FG and knowing your gun, eyes and fingers will be ok versus a chance or a risk? I'm not saying that 4FG wouldn't work, but black is an explosive, so I'd buy the right powder as recommended.

[firefly1957]

it's all i have in black... well can you?

case full & compressed?

I have always been told no 4FG will not run well as main charge BUT in an old Lyman black powder book they used 4FG in 44 revolver , I wonder if it was fact or misprint?
I doubt pressure is the problem if used in 45 colt cartridge stability in ignition could be. In Greener's book he had a image of a fine British Express double rifle shattered by using FFFG equivalent rather then FG . The case was a 3 or 3 1/4" black powder case and it was said the powder detonated rather then burned .

[Thundermaker]

Depends on what they mean by "shattered". You have to remember that those guns were pretty much soldered together.

[firefly1957]

The drawing showed a mess both chambers destroyed it looked like a detonation but these old books had few pictures as the technology was so new.

https://www.amazon.com/Gun-Its-Development-W-Greener/dp/1616088427

[Carl in France]

The only reason i do not use 4f in my .44 bp revolvers is that it is so fine it runs out the nipple hole. I do however load it in my .38 and .357 cases for my cartridge guns and find it more accurate than postol powders. This is probably due to the way the recoil works.

[M-Tecs]

I'll be danged if I can find the article but awhile back I did read some pressures testing data on the various grades of BP. I do remember that the 4F did not product any unusual pressure spikes.

Currently this is all I can find

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?328359-4f-black-powder

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?389699-4F-Blackpowder


Got the pressure test of GOEX 4fg BP in the 45 Colt completed today.

I had six loads of GOEX 4fg under a 454190 to test: 19, 22, 25, 28 & 31 with a wheat bran filler. An additional GOEX 4fg load of 34.5 gr was slightly compressed by the bullet and required no filler.

Under the same 454190 bullet two "full" loads of 3fg were also tested; one with 35 gr of GOEX Cartridge and one of 34.5 with some old Dupont 3fg "Superfine" BP.

Other load data;
Cases: Winchester W-W
Primers: Winchester WLP
Cartridge OAL: 1.600"
Bullet lube 8/5 beeswax to olive oil.

Velocity: Corrected to muzzle

Test firearm: Contender with TC Factory 10" barrel
PSI/velocity measured with Oehler M43 PBL.
SAAMI MAP for the 45 Colt is 14,000 psi.

The "standard" modern 45 Colt BP load of 35 gr GOEX Cartridge gave a velocity of 852 fps at 13,500 psi.

The 34.5 gr load of Dupont Superfine 3fg gave a velocity of 1005 fps at 13,500 psi.

Note: The lowest pressure reading I have got with this barrel is 11,300 psi. Understanding it takes 7000 psi +/- to expand a FL sized case before it can put pressure on the barrel. Then and additional amount is needed to "strain" the barrel so the strain gauge can measure it.

With the GOEX 4fg loads of 19, 22, 25 & 28 gr there just wasn't enough pressure generated to measure. With the 31 gr load only 30% of the shots generated enough pressure to get a measurement. That simply means all the shots with no psi measurement had less than 11,300 psi.

The 31 gr load of GOEX 4fg that gave a measurement gave a velocity of 969 fps at 12,300 psi.

The 34.5 gr GOEX 4fg load gave a velocity of 1025 fps at 12,100 psi.

Note: The 31 gr load had a wheat bran filler. The 34.5 gr load had no filler.

[HWooldridge]

I can't speak to Swiss; the only commercial BP I have ever used is Goex and I can tell you it is not that consistent in size. If you ever screened Goex 3F, you'll see quite a bit falling through to the next sieve sizes. That being said, their 3F has 2F and 4F mixed in at measurable proportions (I believe that info is mentioned earlier in this thread). However, I don't believe that means much in the long run, especially if you are compressing the load. All of the powder in a batch has the same ratios of ingredients, so the speed and pressure won't vary that much. I've shot my homemade BP over a chronograph and my 2F is actually faster that my 3F - only explanation I can come up with is that the larger grains have more air space and allow a slightly faster burn.

Regardless, I seriously doubt anyone will blow up a sound firearm with 4F that the same charge in 3F wouldn't damage as well.

[Texas by God]

I wondered the same thing about 4F in the 44-40, did a thread on it a couple of years back. I’m Still kicking!
But…. Recently TxCowboy52 gave me some 44-40 ammo and brass in a trade. In this bounty were 20 Balloon head Small Primer brass. Hmmmm.
Turns out that 34 grains of Dupont FFFF to the base of a Lee 200gr rnfp (cast of pure PB) produces a pleasant, seemingly powerful load- but not the level of my Unique hunting loads.
The problem is that my H&R Topper won’t fire all of these cartridges. Seating the primers was quite easy- perhaps they used a special height small primer? Maybe meant for the old convex face primers? I’ve never had a misfire before this.
The fired cases and primers looked normal.
No drama there.
John Taylor nailed it on the fouling. I could feel the crust breaking loose with the hot water patches.
The two that did go off would have dropped a deer at 40 yards.
This is entered into the “Now I Know” category.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230120/6db4074a8346c8a80198b07b845da22d.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Carl in France]

A lot of interesting comments here. In short i believe the answer to be yes, you can. And safely too. I have only used Swiss 4f in my revolver and that is thousands of rounds on. It works well and provides for an accurate load. I have shot many at full compressed fill for 100m shooting and have no issues. I load it in my .357 for my Manurhin revolver and it gives excellent accuracy, obviously the danger here is non existant as this is a revolver for pistol powders.
The one thing that has not really been mentioned is that all powder makers manufacture 4f to differing sizes and that may have bearing on the issue. Personally the only thing that has stopped me using some 4f is the fact it is too fine and literally drains out the nipple. If it does not do that i use it. 309938