Fillers...?

[Guy La Pourque]

Good morning Gents,

I'm just getting back into BPCR after a long absence, and would like to ask about smokeless loads: do you guys use fillers? My load is 36 gr. IMR3031 under a 405gr. lead pill in a 45-70 case - and I'm firing that out of a Pedersoli rolling block. Velocities are around 1000~1100 FPS. The book I read said I should be a hundred or so FPS faster - but it was cold out.

would you guys use fillers? I've tried to read up on it but so far all I've come across are discussions that degenerate into food fights where some claim you can blow up your rifle and others say they've been doing it for years with great success. Do any of you have experience with it...? Can you even use fillers with smokeless powder?

Your two cents is sincerely appreciated.

[curator]

would you guys use fillers? I've tried to read up on it but so far all I've come across are discussions that degenerate into food fights where some claim you can blow up your rifle and others say they've been doing it for years with great success. Do any of you have experience with it...? Can you even use fillers with smokeless powder?

My experience with IMR3031 for light loads in the .45-70 is that it can be a bit position sensitive. A small tuft of Dacron between powder and bullet will probably boost velocities about 100 fps with your load. Not that 36 grains of 3031 is all that light but I have found 40 grains with the Lee .459-405HB boolit requires no dacron filler and is still pretty mild. For original "carbine" loads of 1050 fps with the same boolit I prefer 55 grains of Goex FFg and Cream of Wheat as a filler to provide abut 1/4 inch of compression. The bore stays cleaner and accuracy is good without having to swab the bore. Do a search on this site for lots of info on fillers, good and bad.

[JSnover]

Larry Gibson has written some of the best posts on this topic. I haven't used fillers in a long time and haven't tried 3031 in my 45-70 but I never damaged barrel with a bit of Dacron over the powder.

[500Linebaughbuck]

Larry Gibson has written some of the best posts on this topic..

yes sir, i agree!!!

[marlinman93]

Never used fillers, and never will. I wont use powders that require the use of fillers. All sorts of documented cases of fillers creating problems, and sometimes catastrophic problems.

[Edward]

Never used fillers, and never will. I wont use powders that require the use of fillers. All sorts of documented cases of fillers creating problems, and sometimes catastrophic problems. I go with Larry Gibson on fillers and ain"t hurt a gun yet if you pay attention it will definitely
group better especially with 2400 powder :bigsmyl2:

[uscra112]

I have used Dacron, but switched to Kapok because it leaves no residue. That said, I haven't needed a filler in any of my loads in at least ten years. But I'm also not shooting light loads in large cartridges anymore. Biggest now is .32-40, and I found that AA4100 does just fine for plain base boolits at 1400 fps without needing any filler. For very light loads I use Red Dot, which also needs not filler.

The worst thing you can do is use a WAD. Wads over light loads have been conclusively proven to cause ringing.

[Guy La Pourque]

I would really like to try it! Where do you guys get Dacron or kapok from...? Do you ever use cream of wheat for smokeless..? I have seen guys doing it with black powder...

I guess I better get off to my Googling - but I would still like your guys' opinions too, if ya can. Some of the gun forums I am on - you learn which ones you can trust, and which you can't if you catch my drift... ;)

[Nobade]

Pillow stuffing from Walmart is Dacron. Old Navy life vests are stuffed with kapok.
On this topic, I recently started playing with an old Marlin 336 with a microgroove barrel and plain base bullets. Pretty much everything I tried without fillers was a failure. Nothing over 900fps would shoot decently. So I tried some RE22 and cream o wheat. Now I'm seeing 2200fps with good accuracy, zero leading, and so far haven't needed to clean the bore after around 600 rounds fired. As a bonus, bullets are sized to .312 and are a slip fit in the case so no reloading dies used either. Fillers can sometimes be quite useful.

[Huvius]

The need for fillers isn’t just about running light loads.
I often use smokeless (4198) to replicate ballistics of my blackbpowder cartidges, many of which are quite voluminous British chamberings and definitely need a filler of some sort.
So far, nothing is as easy and reproducible as foam backer rod.

[webfoot10]

A cheap filler that most will have is Rice-Krispes cereal, just load powder and fill the case with
the rice krispes as full as the case will take, then seat the bullet. Smells like your baking
cookies when fired. Works for me.
webfoot10

[john.k]

Ive been using wheat bran,but only in 30s and 45/70,but some very reputable people recommend the foam rod,especially for very big cases .Ive gone in a different direction with mixed powder loads that need no filler in any size case.Once the ignition problems are solved ,next comes vertical stringing ,which isnt so easy to eliminate.

[Guy La Pourque]

Hey - can a guy use polyester batting...?

And - when you use cereals for fillers - there's no card or barrier between the filler and the powder, right?

I've noticed my groups would be cut in half if I could get rid of the vertical stringing.

[Wayne Smith]

Huge difference in using a filler in a straight wall case and in a necked case. In a necked case only use something that essentially evaporates (Dacron) or that flows extremely well - and no cereal flows really well!

[Nobade]

Ive been using wheat bran,but only in 30s and 45/70,but some very reputable people recommend the foam rod,especially for very big cases .Ive gone in a different direction with mixed powder loads that need no filler in any size case.Once the ignition problems are solved ,next comes vertical stringing ,which isnt so easy to eliminate.If you layer it rather than mix it, the vertical can be managed better.

[uscra112]

If I can find it, I can send you enough kapok to last you for years. It literally grows on trees in Florida. I got about half a bushel from a guy who was harvesting from his trees and selling it on evilBay.

[Larry Gibson]

I only recommend Dacron as a filler and then only in certain circumstances. Suggest a read of my post #2 in the sticky on proper use of fillers. I do not recommend its use as a wad. I do not recommend any wad be used. I also specifically do not recommend the use of COW, other cereals, coffee, etc. as testing conclusively reveals pressures can increase dramatically.

Yes, "Dacron" is used as pillow and toy stuffing. It is polyester. It also comes as polyester batting which is what I use. I buy it by the yard at fabric stores. It is easy to use simply by cutting strips and the cutting the strips into the size chunk you need for a specific case/powder.

I have chronographed and pressure tested thousands of cast bullets loads in straight and bottlenecked cases with a Dacron filler over the years without a single hint of pressure problems. Keep in mind a chamber is not going to "ring" w/o excessive pressure on the chamber walls. My Oehler M43 would have measured that.

As to the OP's question; yes I definitely suggest a 1 to 1.5 gr filler of Dacron be used in his 36 gr 3031 load under his 405 gr cast bullet in the 45-70. It's one of my favorite loads except I use 35 gr 3031. That load gives right at 1300 fps out of my H&R OM TD with 26" barrel and excellent accuracy. The psi runs 19,100 psi(m43). Using a COW filler increases the psi to 27,000 psi(m43). The velocity drops to 1205 fps and accuracy goes south big time.

[Guy La Pourque]

I just came across your fine post in my search Larry - thanks a bunch! I will try polyester and see what happens! My research seems to indicate that rollers (and trapdoors) and other archaic buff guns like pressures down around 20,000 CUP max. I am off now to see if I can find a conversion factor so I can do the math - I am one of those guys that has to double check everything, even from a trusted source - no offense meant. If I have troubles with that I will come to you guys here first to straighten me out!

My book said that with 405 grainers I should expect 1200 FPS or thereabouts; my chrono indicated around 1000~1100. Could the cold weather do that? It was about -16C when I was shooting.

Also, do you recommend cream of wheat for black powder...? One of my favourite YouTubers was using it in his Martini-Henry 577/450...

[Guy La Pourque]

If I can find it, I can send you enough kapok to last you for years. It literally grows on trees in Florida. I got about half a bushel from a guy who was harvesting from his trees and selling it on evilBay.

I am up in Canada, Uscra. I really appreciate the offer though!

[Guy La Pourque]

Holy mackaral!!!!

I had my first go with polyester batting filler - and the results were spectacular! My groups got cut in half. My velocities went way up - so I assume the pressure did too. For my 405 grainers the book says I am getting hot around 1350 FPS... and mine were coming out the pipe at 1400~1450 with a medium charge of 36 grains of 3031. I am going to go right down to minimum which the book has at 34 grains. Groups were running a hair over 2" at 100m - which for me, with my old eyes, ain't bad! You snipers and younger bucks with steadier nerves and brighter eyes probably would have done much better! I did it as much as possible as per Larry's advice here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?109280-The-proper-use-of-fillers

Welp - I will back off the charges a bit, keep the velocities where the book says - and we'll see what happens. Overall, my first experience with fillers has been a success!!!

[john.k]

What exactly is cream-o-wheat? Is it the germ,or some other part of the grain?......Ive only used wheat bran,which is part of the husk.It was suggested by a Kiwi on this forum,works ok,and is very cheap,.....but all veg. fillers seem to pick up moisture,and so may degrade powder if loaded rounds are stored .Ive not tried dacron,but I have savaged some dacron from an old pillow........and when I find some foam rod Ill try that.

[vzerone]

Pillow stuffing from Walmart is Dacron. Old Navy life vests are stuffed with kapok.
On this topic, I recently started playing with an old Marlin 336 with a microgroove barrel and plain base bullets. Pretty much everything I tried without fillers was a failure. Nothing over 900fps would shoot decently. So I tried some RE22 and cream o wheat. Now I'm seeing 2200fps with good accuracy, zero leading, and so far haven't needed to clean the bore after around 600 rounds fired. As a bonus, bullets are sized to .312 and are a slip fit in the case so no reloading dies used either. Fillers can sometimes be quite useful.

Cream o wheat will do that. One thing about the stuff though if you load ammo don't let it set for years. Had a friend that did that and the stuff hardened inside the case and pressure skyrocketed!

Have you tried BPI's "original" shotshell buffer? It does the same thing with no hardening risks. It's side benefits are it raises pressure so you can use a smaller amount of powder such as you are doing, keeps the powder burn heat off the bullet entirely, and it scours the bore keeping it extremely clean. You saw that with your cream o wheat too.

[Nobade]

I have used a lot of that BPI buffer, and still have a few containers of it here. I agree, it does work very well and doesn't harden over time. And the raising pressure is what I am counting on. RE22 by itself in a 30-30 will barely get the bullet out of the barrel. But 3/4 of a case of it plus the filler and it behaves quite differently and performs very well. Glad to see someone else out there has followed this same path and had similar results.

[vzerone]

One thing I do if I use Dacron is I have a little rod used to install the Dacron into the case, but my rod has a V filed on the end of it. I'll explain, I find it better to pull the Dacron into the case rather then tamp it in. You do this by taking your little 1/2 inch square or 3/4 inch rectangles of Dacron and place the end on/near the case mouth. Then you hook it with the V end of the little rod and it snags it and you can pull the Dacron down atop the powder. You can fill when you touch the powder. If the rod isn't snaging it experiment with the V you filed. I do it this way because I know it fills the case with a more consistent volume of Dacron. I also have the Daron filler just ever so slightly higher then where the bullet will finally seat to insure the Dacron is up against the powder on one end and the bullet base on the other end. Guaranteed not to move or create an air space.

[curator]

What exactly is cream-o-wheat? Is it the germ,or some other part of the grain?.

Cream O Wheat (COW) is ground Semolina wheat sometimes called "Farina." Semolina is the hardest of wheat kernels and the ground form in the breakfast cereal does not contain much of the wheat germ, mostly the endosperm. When compressed, (or under pressure) ground semolina creates a hard plug. It is barely compressible in its uncooked form. It is this feature that makes it either good or bad as a ballistic filler. In a straight wall case, or when used between powder charge and ball/bullet in a muzzle loading gun, COW will compress slightly upon firing and seal off the powder gas behind the bullet. This often enhances accuracy, or allows the use of a lighter charge. COW is utilized in making blank charges without wads for cap & ball revolvers in reenactments and mounted cowboy shooting as its use compressed over the powder charge creates a frangible wad. Its use in bottle-necked cases as a filler can cause pressure spikes when the compressed "plug" of COW encounters the funnel created by the case shoulder and neck. It is a valuable tool in the "bag-O-tricks" of experienced reloaders for specific purposes where it works to the benefit of the reloader, but not something for everyone.

[sharps4590]

Along with what Larry said, a few years back Sherman Bell ran a series of articles on fillers in "The Double Gun and Single Shot Journal". He pressure tested several often used fillers and his results echo Larry's. If I remember correctly cotton balls produced the least increase in pressure then Dacron and the increase was minimal. The worst offenders were cereals and solid fillers, wads. Grahme Wright had several loads for double rifle cartridges with fillers tested at Birmingham Proof House and Kynoch and none of them produced excess pressure if powder charges were kept in line. I use open cell foam which came in I think 3rd or 4th on Bell's list for increase in pressure and it too was well within limits. As I am about out of the foam I believe Dacron is on the list for a replacement.

For quite a while my "go to" load for old 45-70 rifles was 34 grs. of IMR-3031 and a 450 gr. Lee cast bullet. I never used a filler in it and for the rifles I used the load in a filler never seemed necessary. After converting completely to BP some 30+ years ago I haven't fired a smokeless load in any of the BP cartridge rifles I own other than one drilling.

[Larry Gibson]

Guy La Pourque

I just came across your fine post in my search Larry - thanks a bunch! I will try polyester and see what happens! My research seems to indicate that rollers (and trapdoors) and other archaic buff guns like pressures down around 20,000 CUP max. I am off now to see if I can find a conversion factor so I can do the math - I am one of those guys that has to double check everything, even from a trusted source - no offense meant.

There is no reliable "conversion factor" for converting CUP to transducer/gauge measured psi of visa versa. A while back a fellow tried to come up with one but it only works in a very narrow band of cartridges and even then is fraught with errors. Problem with CUP measurements in the 140 year old 45-70 is the wide range of quoted "maximums" for older rifles. I've seen everything from 18,000 to 28,000 CUPs quoted. I use the modern transducer/gauge MAP of 28,000 psi for trapdoor level loads.

No offense taken, I always expect everyone to double check load data.

Also, do you recommend cream of wheat for black powder...? One of my favourite YouTubers was using it in his Martini-Henry 577/450.

No I do not, for the same reasons I don't recommend it with smokeless loads. Many have used such fillers as COW for years w/o apparent problems. However, unless they can measure the pressures of their loads they, nor we, really have any idea how "safe" it might be.

[pertnear]

Interesting stuff "Puff-Lon (http://www.pufflon.com/newfront.html)"
214022

[vzerone]

Puff-Lon is just a filler and it doesn't have the qualities of BPI's original buffer, that is it doesn't have the grabbing resistance to flow throught the bottleneck junction increasing pressure. That is perfectly well and fine if you wish to use as just a filler. Notice their literuature on it says the word "lubricates".

[vzerone]

Here's an interesting read from Rob Behr at Ramshot.

http://blog.westernpowders.com/2015/08/powder-position-and-pressure/

[Larry Gibson]

Here's an interesting read from Rob Behr at Ramshot.

http://blog.westernpowders.com/2015/08/powder-position-and-pressure/

Agrees with everything I've been saying, based on years of testing thousands of various cartridges with different fillers, for quite a long time.

[vzerone]

Yes it does agree , but what I get from it is that (like many who won't load Dacron) is that it's because the Dacron positions the powder against the primer end which the same results can be had by tilting the barrel up. That small amount of Dacron doesn't have enought mass to raise the pressure. It does make it a bit inconvenient to do that and some ranges don't allow it.

Now fillers like cream o wheat do have the weight to raise the pressure by weight alone among other things.

[swheeler]

Yes it does agree , but what I get from it is that (like many who won't load Dacron) is that it's because the Dacron positions the powder against the primer end which the same results can be had by tilting the barrel up. That small amount of Dacron doesn't have enought mass to raise the pressure. It does make it a bit inconvenient to do that and some ranges don't allow it.

Now fillers like cream o wheat do have the weight to raise the pressure by weight alone among other things.

Maybe, maybe not. I think it depends on the powder, especially ball powders where positioning it before firing is not enough but holding it in that position with dacron does increase pressure. 8x57 with 250 gr cast and 35.0 gr WC846 positioned no dacron= 1798 fps 68Es, with dacron 1882fps and 32 es. A very small test but done at 75 deg F so I would imagine at lower temp may be more extreme? I'm guessing the powder just gets blown around in the case at ignition without the dacron.

you are reducing case volume with the dacron, that always raises pressures

[Guy La Pourque]

Well I'll tell you one thing - I am a convert! I'll be using this for all my winter work! When it warms up I will go back to The Holy Black! Yesterday I was flogging at a target at 200 and getting them all in there - but I get a lot of flyers and I'm pretty sure that's my old age and bad marksmanship adding up... I have been spoiled with high power scopes...

Thanks again guys - I am finally off to a good start! :)

[vzerone]

Maybe, maybe not. I think it depends on the powder, especially ball powders where positioning it before firing is not enough but holding it in that position with dacron does increase pressure. 8x57 with 250 gr cast and 35.0 gr WC846 positioned no dacron= 1798 fps 68Es, with dacron 1882fps and 32 es. A very small test but done at 75 deg F so I would imagine at lower temp may be more extreme? I'm guessing the powder just gets blown around in the case at ignition without the dacron.

you are reducing case volume with the dacron, that always raises pressures

I agree with you that without the Dacron that the powder gets blown around at ignition, but I don't agree with Dacron reducing the case volume, only the more solid fillers like BPI shotshell buffer (the correct one) and fillers like cream o wheat do. Although Dacron won't let small ball powder work it's way through it, the powder gases easily penetrate it and that won't tell the powder it's in a small volume case.

Put a small amount of Dacron that you normally use into a cylinder say 30 caliber inside diameter and have a rod that fits that close and tap that down with a hammer on a steel surface and you tell me how much volume it displaces then. Don't forget that BPI shotshell buffer, for an example, does displace some volume, but it's resistance to flowing through the bottleneck also helps raise the pressure. Darcon doesn't have that resistance through the bottleneck.

[Guy La Pourque]

I agree with you that without the Dacron that the powder gets blown around at ignition, but I don't agree with Dacron reducing the case volume, only the more solid fillers like BPI shotshell buffer (the correct one) and fillers like cream o wheat do. Although Dacron won't let small ball powder work it's way through it, the powder gases easily penetrate it and that won't tell the powder it's in a small volume case.

Put a small amount of Dacron that you normally use into a cylinder say 30 caliber inside diameter and have a rod that fits that close and tap that down with a hammer on a steel surface and you tell me how much volume it displaces then. Don't forget that BPI shotshell buffer, for an example, does displace some volume, but it's resistance to flowing through the bottleneck also helps raise the pressure. Darcon doesn't have that resistance through the bottleneck.

I really have to disagree. Maybe I'm crazy or not that bright or both... but when I shot without the fillers, my chrony showed my 32" barrelled rifle as being about 100FPS below book velocities. That same charge, with the filler - and velocities went a smidge faster than max according to the book. I would assume that was because increased pressure was driving the increased velocities... but whadda I know? I've only fired 20 rounds so far... but the results have been stellar.

[vzerone]

I really have to disagree. Maybe I'm crazy or not that bright or both... but when I shot without the fillers, my chrony showed my 32" barrelled rifle as being about 100FPS below book velocities. That same charge, with the filler - and velocities went a smidge faster than max according to the book. I would assume that was because increased pressure was driving the increased velocities... but whadda I know? I've only fired 20 rounds so far... but the results have been stellar.

I've never stated that Dacron didn't raise pressure. Next time you test that rifle do three test: one with no Dacron and not positioning the powder by not raising the rifle muzzle, the next no Dacron, but raise the muzzle, and the third use Dacron. See what the three velocities read. We all agree Dacron raises the pressure, but Western Powders says so does raising the muzzle so the powder rest again the flash hole. I wish swheeler would have got the velocity on his load with no Dacron and no positioning. Or you know what? I could test it and report it here!

[swheeler]

I agree with you that without the Dacron that the powder gets blown around at ignition, but I don't agree with Dacron reducing the case volume, only the more solid fillers like BPI shotshell buffer (the correct one) and fillers like cream o wheat do. Although Dacron won't let small ball powder work it's way through it, the powder gases easily penetrate it and that won't tell the powder it's in a small volume case.

Put a small amount of Dacron that you normally use into a cylinder say 30 caliber inside diameter and have a rod that fits that close and tap that down with a hammer on a steel surface and you tell me how much volume it displaces then. Don't forget that BPI shotshell buffer, for an example, does displace some volume, but it's resistance to flowing through the bottleneck also helps raise the pressure. Darcon doesn't have that resistance through the bottleneck.

OK but what is increasing the velocity, it has to be pressure increase, that's how it works increase pressure increase velocity. The not enough "mass" argument doesn't work for me simply because PSB or BPI ORG to be more exact rivals dacron for weighing "nothing"! About 12 years ago or so, your "cuz" and I were doing BPI ORG testing in 6.5 cal rifles with slow powders, he using a stick powder and I a slow ball IIRC? we were doing the buffer by volume needed to finish filling the case 3/4 up the neck then compress buffer with bullet, seems I was using less than TWO-2 grains by weight, that isn't much "mass". To me there has to be something more than just powder positioning going on with dacron. I guess that is why I always called it "proving up internal ballistics" I know lots of quotation marks:bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2::drinks:

[swheeler]

I've never stated that Dacron didn't raise pressure. Next time you test that rifle do three test: one with no Dacron and not positioning the powder by not raising the rifle muzzle, the next no Dacron, but raise the muzzle, and the third use Dacron. See what the three velocities read. We all agree Dacron raises the pressure, but Western Powders says so does raising the muzzle so the powder rest again the flash hole. I wish swheeler would have got the velocity on his load with no Dacron and no positioning. Or you know what? I could test it and report it here!

Like I say, I think it has to do with the powder itself, ie harder to ignite ball powders v easier to ignite ball or extruded. Now I never said all ball powders or all extruded powders, heck there are ball powders with NO deterrent coating. I don't have any way to test pressure and don't think it would give the complete answer anyway? I'm pretty sure we all agree the added velocity is from increased pressure, but is positioning the powder responsible for the entire increase, I don't know that or think that. Some brave sole could run this kind of test with a powder that shows no position sensitivity(Unique, Bullseye, 231) in the case being tested, then add dacron and see what happens:shock:but that is usually a NONO with these powders.

Ever wonder why a no-no if positioning powder is dacron's only purpose? If that were true pressure would stay the same or close enough to make NO difference.

[vzerone]

Like I say, I think it has to do with the powder itself, ie harder to ignite ball powders v easier to ignite ball or extruded. Now I never said all ball powders or all extruded powders, heck there are ball powders with NO deterrent coating. I don't have any way to test pressure and don't think it would give the complete answer anyway? I'm pretty sure we all agree the added velocity is from increased pressure, but is positioning the powder responsible for the entire increase, I don't know that or think that. Some brave sole could run this kind of test with a powder that shows no position sensitivity(Unique, Bullseye, 231) in the case being tested, then add dacron and see what happens:shock:but that is usually a NONO with these powders.

Ever wonder why a no-no if positioning powder is dacron's only purpose? If that were true pressure would stay the same or close enough to make NO difference.

It's a good thing to investigate further for sure. I may do a test with a 308 and 4895 if I can find my Dacron, as I don't use any light fillers anymore. Can we assume an increase in velocity with using the same componants being an increase in pressure? I do.

[swheeler]

It's a good thing to investigate further for sure. I may do a test with a 308 and 4895 if I can find my Dacron, as I don't use any light fillers anymore. Can we assume an increase in velocity with using the same componants being an increase in pressure? I do.

Yes that is what I stated, pressure up-velocity up. My thought is dacron is doing something similar too BPI buffer but without all the friction in case transition from body to neck. I think it is sealing the bore, kind of a gas check under the gas check. Testing dacron with a powder that proves to be not position sensitive in the loading density and case tested should be proof, my thinking anyhow? If 15 grains of Unique gives 1500 fps in muzzle up-muzzle down position in 8mm case with xx weight bullet, then add 1 grain of dacron and get a 100 fps increase, where did that increase come from if it's only job is to position powder? If it is not decreasing case capacity, not increasing burn rate by friction inside the case then where is the velocity coming from? Better seal to bore

[vzerone]

Yes that is what I stated, pressure up-velocity up. My thought is dacron is doing something similar too BPI buffer but without all the friction in case transition from body to neck. I think it is sealing the bore, kind of a gas check under the gas check. Testing dacron with a powder that proves to be not position sensitive in the loading density and case tested should be proof, my thinking anyhow? If 15 grains of Unique gives 1500 fps in muzzle up-muzzle down position in 8mm case with xx weight bullet, then add 1 grain of dacron and get a 100 fps increase, where did that increase come from if it's only job is to position powder? If it is not decreasing case capacity, not increasing burn rate by friction inside the case then where is the velocity coming from? Better seal to bore

I like the better seal because if you watch slow motion videos of a rifle's muzzle when fired smoke come out of it before the bullet does. So it makes sense that the Dacron is sealing things at the get go.

[swheeler]

I think we agree! Now to get Larry to test it because I'm scared to blow up my favorite mauser with dacron and bullseye!!!!!!!!!:bigsmyl2:

[vzerone]

Send that Mauser to me, I'll blow er up for ya! [smilie=l:

[Larry Gibson]

"Some brave sole could run this kind of test with a powder that shows no position sensitivity(Unique, Bullseye, 231) in the case being tested, then add dacron and see what happens but that is usually a NONO with these powders."

I did that many years ago in the 30-30 with Bullseye; 311291 and 5 gr BE. I didn't have the M43 PBL and was chronographing with an Oehler M35P. With out the Dacron filler, surprisingly, the most consistent load (lowest ES and SD) was with the powder forward. The highest velocity, not really by that much, was with the powder in the rear against the primer. With the powder settled in the middle of the case there wasn't a lot of difference between with the powder to the rear. When a Dacron filler was added the velocity was the highest and the ES/SD only slightly better.

Since measuring the pressure in thousands of rounds using the Dacron filler there is no doubt it does raise pressures slightly. I discount any great effect based on "sealing the bore" because the same load sans the Dacron did not lead the bore whatsoever.....in any test. We know gas blow by causes leading yet there was none w/o the Dacron filler. In 30 cals if the bullet is sized to fit the throat, is .001 - .003 over the groove diameter and is bumped into the leade/lands how is there gas blow by anyway? If the bore is not already sealed from that then as soon as the bullet moves forward it is. The real benefit to the above test was in with the Dacron vs no Dacron the 3.5 - 4" of vertical stringing with the no Dacron load was negated at 100 yards. The load with Dacron gave groups 1/3 the size and showed no hint of vertical stringing.

Fact is putting any inert material in the airspace between powder and bullet reduces the airspace......that in essence reduces the case volume.

As to being "brave" (I prefer to call it "foolhardy") and repeating the test with BE why are we wanting to prove something that is already proven? A Dacron filler used, when warranted, almost always improves the ES and SD and thus improves accuracy.

BTW; With the use of BE, 231, Red Dot, etc. up through Unique in .30 cals up through 30-06 the same accuracy improvement can be made w/o using a filler simply by drilling out the flash hole to get the primer flash into the case volume quicker and more uniformly.

[swheeler]

We sure don't want to be " foolhardy" now do we.:shock:

[Ramjet-SS]

Larry outstanding engineering level information. Math does not lie.

[vzerone]

If you take the little amount of Dacron you use in your load and melt it on a steel plate you get a little ball. Anything inside the case reduces it's volume even a molecule of anything. Like carbon. So yes that little piece of Dacron reduces the volume in that respect, but do you really believe that amount is to enough to make a very noticeable difference? I don't.

Even if you bump the nose of the bullet into the leade/lands it's not totally sealing everything off, especially the grooves, yet. If you don't believe me you have to fire the rifle while filming the muzzle with a high speed camera to see the little puff of smoke come out before the bullet. There is even a little bit of gas leaking down the outsides of the case before enough pressure obturates the case and seals it to the chamber, thus the reason for sooted cases.

Now as to whether the Dacron seals I stated in a previous post with swheeler that I agreed with him that it may. Re-thinking I don't think that is does because there just isn't enough mass there to do it. I absolutely do believe Kapok seals some as it's a whole different animal then Dacron. Long time ago I remember a few things about Dacron that I will mention here now. First the NRA said things about your bore after shooting Dacron fillers. They said about the only thing they saw was sometimes a very minute little ball of melted Dacron in the bore. The other thing is BruceB said a long time ago that he found lots of the Dacron filler laying in front of his bench. I have never found any Dacron laying on the ground in front of my bench. I've shot lots of Kapok and Dacron fillers. Watching the muzzle with Dacron I've only ever seen just smoke come out upon firing. I believe that is because the hot powder gases consume it. With Kapok I've always seen smoke and the fibers come out. The Kapok fibers coming out were as if you blew on a handful of dandelion blossums. My assumption, not proven, is that the Dacron melts from the hot powder gases and doesn't blow out the muzzle in a one piece wad or in fiber pieces. Anyone else have a take on this?

Not arguing just the way I perseive it.

[swheeler]

Absolutely the base of the bullet has to make the trip from the expanding neck then through the throat and finally engraved by the rifling, so once inside the bore if no blow by of gases of course there will not be leading, we're talking about what happens before.

[vzerone]

Absolutely the base of the bullet has to make the trip from the expanding neck then through the throat and finally engraved by the rifling, so once inside the bore if no blow by of gases of course there will not be leading, we're talking about what happens before.

Gotcha, you're basically talking about before the bullet begins to move. So have you ever found any of your Dacron filler after firing?

[swheeler]

I have found it burned around the very end of the neck, and yes I have had it blow back into my face when shooting into the wind, so I don't think it is all consumed, but most times no not on the ground in front of the bench.

[vzerone]

Pretty similar to my results. Kapok sure will blow in your face if the wind blows it that way. I've found what looks like a white Teflon ring in extreme bottle neck cartridges when using large loads of hot burning surplus ball powder. That right there is conclusive proof that the BPI shotshell buffer does indeed grab the case resisting flow through the bottleneck thus increasing pressure!

[Guy La Pourque]

I have another question about fillers - how do you decide if you need them, and whether they are practical? The only reason I got involved with fillers is because of hearing you guys here at Cast Boolits talking about them - but I have a Uberti 1876 repro in .45-75. I am going to try burning 40gr of 3031 in it behind a 350 grain boolit (from what little info I can find on this cartridge, I'm told that I should be able to use the mildest 45-70 load data without much worry...). Should I try fillers with this one too, in your opinion...?

[Larry Gibson]

Absolutely the base of the bullet has to make the trip from the expanding neck then through the throat and finally engraved by the rifling, so once inside the bore if no blow by of gases of course there will not be leading, we're talking about what happens before.

If the front drive band is larger than groove diameter it seals the bore with very little bullet movement. The base of the bullet does not need to seal the bore if the bullets entire bearing surface is larger than the groove diameter because the bore is sealed well be for the base gets there.

[Larry Gibson]

Did lots of shooting on an indoor range and I've swept up lots of Dacron that accumulated on the floor in front of the muzzle. Also had it blow back in my face on out door ranges. Contrary to popular opinion I don't think much if any of the Dacron melts. I never found one spec of it melted, not on the floor of the indoor range or in the bore.

Does a Dacron filler reduce case capacity, does the Dacron seal the bore? Fact is, neither matter simply because the use of a proper Dacron filler works as intended. The Dacron filler works better than most any other filler and as good as a couple. It is easier to use than any other filler. Thus, in my opinion based on thousands of rounds out of different rifles in a multitude of cartridges over many years, The fact that it works is whats important. I've no need to waste further time with conjecture and assumption.

[Larry Gibson]

I have another question about fillers - how do you decide if you need them, and whether they are practical? The only reason I got involved with fillers is because of hearing you guys here at Cast Boolits talking about them - but I have a Uberti 1876 repro in .45-75. I am going to try burning 40gr of 3031 in it behind a 350 grain boolit (from what little info I can find on this cartridge, I'm told that I should be able to use the mildest 45-70 load data without much worry...). Should I try fillers with this one too, in your opinion...?

The decision is based on the burning rate of the powder, bullet weight and load density.

With your 45-75 with the 350 gr cast bullet over 3031 if the load density (case capacity to the base of the seated bullet) is less than 80% then I would use a Dacron filler. I would drop back to the suggested "start" loads and work up to the intended level.

[Larry Gibson]

I recently came into a quality of RL7 so I thought I would try it under the NOE 30 XCB bullet in my .308W Match M70 rifle. I initially tried 25 through 29 gr in 1 gr increments w/o a Dacron filler. The ES for those 10 shot test strings ranged from 143 fps to 248 fps.....pretty poor and the on target groups were just as poor with the best group at 2.45". Average velocities ranged from 1954 fps to 2256 fps.

Dropping back and testing 21 gr through 25 gr with the Dacron filler (1 - 1.5 gr) velocities range from 1811 fps to 2103 fps. The ES for the 10 shot test strings dropped to 47 fps up through 103 fps. The 23 gr load with a Dacron filler averaged 1980 fps with the 47 ES and an SD of 13. The 10 shot group was .697. I loaded 25 rounds of that load and, after foulers and sighters to zero, shot 4 consecutive 5 shot CBA targets for score. The score was 194 out of 200 possible. Even though not shooting for group I measured them anyway. The average 10 shot group size was .93". Here is one of them;

214319

As I said, a properly used Dacron filler works......all else is moot......

[ulav8r]

Tried Dacron 1 time in 1968-69. After the first shot I pushed a small black ball of melted Dacron out of the bore. Was using a Lee Loader and a 308 Win. with Unique. Did not load any more Dacron. Loaded several with COW. It seemed to work fine. Not having access to a chrono, don't know what was actually happening but I am not going to use any more COW in a necked case.

[swheeler]

Tried Dacron 1 time in 1968-69. After the first shot I pushed a small black ball of melted Dacron out of the bore. Was using a Lee Loader and a 308 Win. with Unique. Did not load any more Dacron. Loaded several with COW. It seemed to work fine. Not having access to a chrono, don't know what was actually happening but I am not going to use any more COW in a necked case.

Oh ya it can and does melt upon firing, I find it often melted around the very end of the neck, hard and can be scraped off by fingernail. Most recently with 24.0 Grs IMR 4198 and .8 gr dacron. I have never used dacron with any powders with a burn rate faster than 2400 speed.

[vzerone]

Oh ya it can and does melt upon firing, I find it often melted around the very end of the neck, hard and can be scraped off by fingernail.

I believe you when you say it melts. The NRA said it melts and they found little round ball/balls of it in the bore. Myself I have never found that. I think because I'm not one to shoot the very small charges of fast powders like Bullseye and Unique, that I've always leaned towards the heavier loads, when I use to use Dacron it got blown out of the barrel and pretty much obliterated and I never found any in front of the bench. My loads blew everything out of the barrel.

I don't feel that swheeler and myself are making conjectures and assumptions. Our statements are founded on our shooting tests and experiments. I've also found because I don't shoot the "peep squeak" loads that I've no need for a Dacron filler. I've gotten good accuracy and single digit ES's and SD's even with the slow burning surplus powder duplexed with booster loads. I'm not mocking any of you that like and use those light loads, but I have no need for them. Almost all my loads fill a high percentage of the case and the duplexed surplus powder loads feel it 100% all the time.

How can anyone be positive that there is no gas leakage with the bullet being jammed into the throat and cone/leade, as mentioned somewhere else in this thread, without a high speed camera at the muzzle?

[john.k]

There are plenty of whingers when you use paper patching if the wind blows the bits back.......so I suspect these same characters would be very obviously picking and blowing fibres from their $4000 scopes if the dacron came out unchanged......and they never keep anything to themselves.

[Larry Gibson]

vzerone

I've no doubt the improper use of Dacron can result in the melting of it. I've no doubt Dacron might help seal the bore with a poorly fitting bullet. I do not advise in the improper use of Dacron as a wad or filler with fast burning powders such as Bullseye and Unique. For the proper use of Dacron as a filler, which is what I always recommend, and what I advise to use is stated in post #2 in the sticky. I also advise to use a properly fitting bullet in rifles, most often one that fits the throat.

All of your arguments, assumptions and opinions simply reinforce my continued suggestion of the proper use of Dacron as a filler. You are quite right that your mentioned improper use results in probable anomalies. A couple other posters also have mentioned anomalies when they used Dacron improperly. Other than pointing out what happens when Dacron is used improperly I'm not sure what your point is.

Like so many things when a Dacron filler is used properly it works. When used improperly it doesn't. Is that so hard to understand?

[Larry Gibson]

There are plenty of whingers when you use paper patching if the wind blows the bits back.......so I suspect these same characters would be very obviously picking and blowing fibres from their $4000 scopes if the dacron came out unchanged......and they never keep anything to themselves.

john.k

Wow.....a $4000 scope.....don't I wish.....8-)

The most expensive scopes I have are the 2 Leupold 6.5x20s and they cost around $700 when I got them. My Kowa spotting scope with 25X eyepiece cost a couple hundred more. I am working on a $2300 Night Force but haven't got there yet. Maybe some day.......

I never said I didn't have to clean any Dacron debris off the lens of the rifle scope or the Kowa......It is necessary often when the wind blows in from 11 to 1 o'clock (or is that 5 to 7 o'clock in old Australia....[smilie=l:) Didn't think this "character" needed to mention that since I did mention the debris blew back in my face......the other would seem obvious.......at least it did to me.

:drinks:

[vzerone]

LG

We aren't talking about the proper use of Dacron. You're changing what we're talking about. By we I mean myself and swheeler. What you accuse me and swheeler (he's part of this too) of "all my (our) assumptions, arguements, opinions" even if you don't realize it apply to you too.

I don't agree with your improper use of Dacron can result in melting. It doesn't have to be improper use. Grant you little doses of fast burning powders don't melt it. As a side note I've never seen the BPI shotshell buffer melt. I've seen evidence of it becoming plastic and compacted, but we're not talking about that.

Of course the bullet should fit all areas it's required too. I don't agree with a light dose of Bullseye and jamming the bullet into the cone/leade though. Often bullets require "wiggle room" even if they are very close fitting.

It's very difficult to debate with you because it gets heated on both sides and the moderator then have to intervene. Can't we just discuss all this civil (and I'm not implying that it isn't civil thus far)?

Why are you so against swheeler and myself talking about Dacron?

[vzerone]

How many of you have noticed that there is a difference in the Dacron in items we buy to obtain a source. By that I mean quilt batting (that is what I bought when I used Dacron) stuffed animals, and other stuff items such as small pillows. I've noticed the Dacron like material in stuff animals such as pet toys is different from Dupont's Dacron batting for example. Often the stuffing in those toys is one big ball or quite a few smaller balls and it's very springy and wire like. Most often those stuffed toys are from China. Do you think China uses Duponts Dacron? I don't. Maybe the properties of those are slightly different. We know that their chemical plants have the formula, but that doesn't gaurantee the product they make is exactly the same. BTW I've never bought the stuffed toys to obtain the stuffing, but being I have cats and dogs they destroy them and I became aware of the material inside them.

[Larry Gibson]

vzerone

I am not changing the conversation at all. Your post #32 answered my previous post which was before swheeler got into the conversation and you continued to discuss it with me disagreeing, as usual, with anything I've said. Not against you and swheeler discussing anything but this is a forum open to everyone. You want to have a conversation just between the two of you using PMs would be the place for that. If you post in a thread then it is open for comment from anyone.

And there's nothing heated on "this side". I'm merely pointing out your arguments, assumptions and opinions confirm what I am saying and I failed to see the point you are trying to make. I expected you to make your point a little clearer.....are you saying Dacron, when used properly, is not a good filler? It does appear that's what you're saying/insinuating?

Obviously asking what your point was/is has got you "heated". That was unintentional on "this side" and since my point is made that Dacron, when used properly, is the best filler in my opinion I was just waiting for clarification of your point. Apparently you don't wish to clarify your point so you can discuss Dacron all you want with whomever you want......I'll leave it to you.

[vzerone]

LG

No I'm not heated at all, no problem there. I actually laughed.

So let me clarify my point you speak of. Not for one second am I saying that Dacron isn't a good filler because it is. We're talking about the "whys" it does what it does and also about things that we may not know it does. So clear now?

Let me talk about calling it a filler. First a reloading story to put my point more into perpective. They make a collar button bullet for the 45-70 and as you can imagine it's very light for that round. You load it with a very very tiny amount of W231 powder (and let me make it clear the new W231 and HP38 won't work). Then you cut wads from the styrofoam egg cartons are made from. You place this wad a precise certain amount distance away from the top of the powder by using a wood dowel cut the precise length to position it. I imagine if you weigh that styrofoam wad it's probably lighter then the Dacron filler you use. That wad is not a filler, it is a powder positioner!!! My point is that you are wrong in calling Dacron a filler and I imagine it became to be called that because one "fills" the empty part of the case with it. It's a powder positioner Larry!!!! A filler is more along the lines of BPI shotshell buffer, cream o wheat, Grex, etc. They have way more mass and weight then Dacron. Those are fillers!

Why is it you always say "your arguments, assumptions and opinions" as though what I say is wrong? Or to make it look that way. Like I've said before you have "your arguments, assumptions and opinions" too!

You twist things too. You said accused you of changing the conversation. What I said was you were talking about the proper use of Dacron and we weren't. We were talking about it melting, it blowing out of the barrel in shreds, it blowing out pretty staying the shape it was on the ground in front of the bench, whether it has any sealing effects, etc. That's all.

We're not going to take it to pm so we invite you to stay and give your assumptions and opinions. Hang around.

When was the first time you used Dacron?

[swheeler]

I didn't know we had to get LG's permission to discuss dacron on here, sorry.

[vzerone]

Oh he's okay. He wanted clarification from me if I agreed Dacron works as a filler.

[swheeler]

I sure like it, but then I only use it properly.:drinks:Since when would 24 gr of IMR 4198 and 3/4 gr of fluffed up dacron be improper use, cause that is the load depositing melted dacron on the case necks of 8mm.

That is with the 175 gr Lee bullet shot just weeks ago in VZ24 on another thread here