So paper patch boolits not supposed to lead up barrels eh ?

[Keith]

Well after shooting greasers for 20 odd years , I thought I would give PP a go.
I had previously built a couple of 45-90,s on Rolling Block actions. One a Navy Arms and the other a Swede.
The Navy had a new Krieger 1 in 16 , so I pulled it out, cut an inch off and rechambered with a Dave Manson 45-70 PP reamer I bought for the purpose. The Krieger is a couple of thou tighter then the Green Mountain in the Swede so anyway I bought two moulds off Baco. One a Jim 443540M and the other a Jim 446545M. I determined the paper I needed and bought a roll off Baco as well.
All this was over a year ago, and the Doc said my blood lead levels were up, so I stopped handing lead and shooting for a year.
My BLL has gone down a bit, but I missed shooting, so said Bugger it and thought I would get this to shoot anyway.
Bought some certified 16 to 1 ingots and cast up a few with both the 433 and the 446.
The 443 with the 16 to 1 came out about 441 to 442 and when wrapped are a snug fit in the bore. When pushed through the pressure is about the same as a patch and the rifling barely leaves a mark.
Filled a fire formed case with Wano PP, card wad compressed about 2 mm. boolit is a easy loose fit, load and fire.
The second shot was about 2 inches from the first then it went downhill from there.
Wiping 2 damp with moose milk then two dry between each shot.
Gave up after 6 and suspected lead so cleaned with turps. It was a lead mine.
My patches are 1 inch wide with maybe 1/8 inch turned under.
I tried some over long ones, past the ogive and they are not cutting right to the front so thought the 1 inch ones should be enough.
I cant see them bumping up that much in front so am at a loss as to how its leading up.
Any ideas?
Keith

[country gent]

Have you recovered any patches? they can tell you a lot. What size of card wad are you using dia and thickness? from your descrition I assue your wrapping with a flat base no tail. Depending on the bullets ogive the patch may need to be slightly longer. While the ogive may not be bumping up if there is full bullet dia eposed ahead of it this may be bumping up to case issues. measure from ogive to base and add a little less than half bullet dia. This will cover the full driving area and allow for fold over with a small center hole showing the bullet base. use 2 wraps of paper with ends just short of meeting .030".

My bullets are 530 grns .442 dia wraped 2 wraps of seth cole paper .0018 thickness ( I think its 55w). The patch is .030 short of 2 full wraps so the under wrap and over the 2nd end is still able to lay flat. Fold under is such that there is a .045"-.060" circle of bullet base showing still. This gives a very flat base to the bullet. I wrap dry and use a patch board for ease. My patches are from the ogive down.

My load is olde ensforde 1 1/2f ( I think I'm working from memory here). enough for a 1/8" compression with the wad stack. The over powder wad is a NAPA ruber fiber gasket material wad .060 thick and .460 dia. compressed with this wad. a .090" grease cookie of SPG a playing card wad of the same dia. then 2 tracing paper wads. These are set with little tool I made so they are snug together. The bullet is hand seated onto this and a light neck tension done with the sizing die, size for size or maybe .001 smaller. Bullet can be spun by hand but dosnt fall out. Bullet are only in the case .150" or so. Before hand seating I wipe the paper Patch down lightly with JO JOba oil. I put a drop on finger and work thumb and to fingers do 3-5 bullets and remove excess with a cleaning patch.

You arnt getting paper rings left in the chamber. Ive found rifles with no real throat ( leade right off the case mouth) do better with bore riders than chambers with a throat do. Paper rings indicate the bullet swelling before leade and bigger than then its sheared off.

THe book Loading and Shooting The Paper Patched Bullet a Beginners Guide, by Randolph S Wright is very good and informative. Covers casting wrapping cutting the patch loading and other areas.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

keith,
sometimes the patch can get cut on the chamber/barrel transition.
confetti shows this as the folded under part attatched to short fingers, and then longer fingers with no base part attatched.
45 degree transitions are worse for this than 4 or 7 degree.
the lead then comes off the back bit of the bullet, about how much the bullet was in the case.
sometimes lubing the back 1/2 of the patch with tallow can help, but not necessarily.
your bullet at 431 to 432 sounds quite small for a 45 cal, and must require thick paper to be a sliding fit in the bore as you describe.
in fact your paper as wrapped must be about 0.0045 per layer, making 0.009 per side.
0.004 per side total or a little less might be better, with a bullet to suit.
is the krieger henry or traditional rifled?
too short a patches will lead but rarely to the extent you describe.
you really need to recover a number of fired patches as this can tell a lot.
they will often show blowby, although you should not have any as you loaded the ammo.
the 0.446 bullet will need quite thin paper the slide into the barrel.
depending on what paper you can get you might have to compress lowder a lot and use neck tension so the bullet does not set back into the case when you chamber the round.
using the thinner paper and thicker bullet might well require less bullet bumpup, creating a quicker seal in the barrel.
a 0.446 bullet patched with seth cole 55y requires a breech seater to get into my badger bore.
so many possibilities and you just have to try them one at a time.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Keith]

I have Wrights book and Matthews as well. Also read lots of posts on the various forums including your loading methods CG.
Some keep it simple so I am starting there, just the thin card , no lube. Its a proper PP reamer but not sure on the leade angle. Its a tight chamber, I did it by hand. If I try even a light bell to make it easier to seat the boolit I cant chamber the case. I was wondering if the 442 was too small. earlier I cast some from my scrap pot. Lead and wheelweights, came out frosty looking. They measured 443 and wrapped tighter.
The 446 mould in the harder lead came out 445 but would not start to chamber with this paper. It would be better in the GM barrel.
I might see if I can get thinner paper to try it again in this barrel.
Sorry Bruce. I made a typo. The two moulds are 443 and 446.
I will try for a photo of the paper. I could find several of the longer one, it was about 1 1/8 inch long but the shorter 1 inch ones I only found one.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

keith,if it won't work simple it wont work complicated generally.
the 443 mould might work with the baco paper, and wetpatcing will make the diameter smaller than dry patching.
this can be handy when getting a bullet to fit.
don't worry about the matthews book.
it is clear from reading it that he was confused when he wrote it, and it must have sent a lot of people up **** creek without a paddle.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Don McDowell]

If you haven't done so already, be sure to put a light chamfer on the inside of the case mouth, otherwise the case mouth can put a pinch on the paper letting it tear and expose the base. If your bullets are to loose in the case, that can also give you some blowby/gas cutting.
Check your wiping routine. Make sure you're wet patches are just damp enough that you don't end up leaving a lot of moisture puddles in the barrel. You want those patches to just be damp.
But yes it is possible to get leading when shooting paper patch, and it's a dang mess when something goes wrong.

[Keith]

Yes , I have chamfered the cases and dry patch. The boolits are barely in and will come out if they are lifted. I might try compressing more and seating deeper or the other way, make a breech seater and do that.
Try for a patch pic.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4747/39433317694_6479634bb7_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/235A4vQ). (https://flic.kr/p/235A4vQ) by Keith Cree (https://www.flickr.com/photos/141809689@N05/), on Flickr
The patch nearest the boolit on the right is the shorter one at 1 inch . Its the only one I could find this morning. It was a bit windy , and perhaps they were confetti.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4674/39433316734_4828986581_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/235A4eh). (https://flic.kr/p/235A4eh) by Keith Cree (https://www.flickr.com/photos/141809689@N05/), on Flickr

The others are the longer patch and were easier to find. You can see they are a bit long but still cant explain the leading.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

keith,
your patces are too long, but that should not cause leading.
what might is the ammount of black showing up those patches, suggesting blowby causing gas cutting.
that bullet in that case should be o.k., but that black cannot be denied.
unless it is from insufficient wiping?
12:1 alloy has never shown black confetti here, and cuts the paper right to about where your patches go on the patched bullet.
a dry or barely oiled bore is to be siught after for target shooting pp bullets.
one would have suspected patches as shown on the bullet to cut to the front or very near, yet yours come nowhere near that, also suggesting minimal bumpup. this also leads to suspicion re blowby.
the transition is clearly not cutting the paper - a good thing.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Keith]

Bruce, here is a pic of the reamer. it looks like 45 degrees but the back of the patches look OK dont you think.?
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4748/39247354185_8317170169_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/22N9X3r). (https://flic.kr/p/22N9X3r) by Keith Cree (https://www.flickr.com/photos/141809689@N05/), on Flickr

Maybe not 45, perhaps 35???

[Keith]

keith,
your patces are too long, but that should not cause leading.
what might is the ammount of black showing up those patches, suggesting blowby causing gas cutting.
that bullet in that case should be o.k., but that black cannot be denied.
unless it is from insufficient wiping?
a dry or barely oiled bore is to be siught after for target shooting pp bullets.
one would have suspected patches as shown on the bullet to cut to the front or very near, yet yours come nowhere near that, also suggesting minimal bumpup. this also leads to suspicion re blowby.
the transition is clearly not cutting the paper - a good thing.
keep safe,
bruce.

Bruce, just to eliminate fouling this morning I was wiping squeeky clean between shots with a dry bore.
I thought this 16 to one seemed soft as the indent with the hardness tester was .08. I thought that should have bumped up.
I was worried about these money bullets nose slumping. To eliminate blowby I guess I should go softer but .08 indent seemed soft.
Should I compress more and try a wad stack?

[BRUCE MOULDS]

keith,
the thinnest hardest wad will give the most bumpup.
a wadstack or wad that seals might stop blowby.
you are right 16:1 is not a hard alloy.
however in your case you could work back to 20:1, 25:1, and even as low as 30:1 if necessary.
your idea of avoiding nose slump is a good one, but sufficient bumpup is of greater importance.
guys like brent are using 16:1 in 45/70s with 80+ gns of powder and a bullet seated like yours with success.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Keith]

Yes, I was going by Brents example. I have 83 grains if Wano PP in these. Maybe Swiss gives more bang for the buck but I cant get it.
In my muzzleloader GG,s bump up after sliding down the bore without a lot of effort.
Most frustrating.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

one would expect wano pp to do the job at least as well as 1f swiss which has proven sufficient .
the odg preferred 1 f for this job, and used between 11:1 and 14:1.
metford used antimonial alloys in muzzle and breech loaders, but experimented with its time to "ripen", or establish a hardness.
there is a good article on research press about metfords alloys.
could your alloy be as advertised?
yes your reamer looks to have a 45 degree transition, but that is obviously not the issue.
gg bullets are harder to bump up than pp bullets generally, possibly because the grooves rob the bands of some expansion.
those guys often play with wads to act as a seal.
keep safe,
bruce.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

where is kurt when you need him?
the man who has been around the traps more than all of us put together.
keep safe,
bruce.

[25ring]

Keith, I had blackened patches that look just like yours and leaded the barrel something fierce! I patch to bore dia and seat into the case 1/16".When I increased the wad stack to .125 the problem disappeared.I'm guessing the transition from chamber to bore is involved,but I'm pretty new to this paper patch thing so I'll defer to the folks that have a lot more experience than me.

[rfd]

so many factors to consider with ppb's. but once sorted out it's all so much better than greasers. :shock: :)

when a completed ppb is chambered, [1] does the bullet enter deep into the bore, [2] does the fit of the bullet to rifling appear snug, [3] does an extracted cartridge show rifling marks on the patching, [4] how are you addressing fouling control of both the chamber and barrel?

i'm casting BACO 528 grain slicks that drop @ .443 and with a double wrap of dry 9# rhomboid onion paper the bullet measures .445" for a nice fit to bore/rifling. 81 grains of lightly compressed swiss 1-1/2f under a single card wad in starline fire formed brass. the roller is a double set 45-70 pedi with a greaser chamber. the gun and careful loads have the ability to render under 2moa at a short 200 yards. my blown patches are relatively clean confetti.

https://i.imgur.com/yVaa5P1.jpg

[Gunlaker]

Keith is that reamer from Dave Manson the one that Dan Theodore designed for bore diameter PP bullets? If so then it is the same one I use in two of my rifles. I have found that the rifles shoot very well with either Swiss 1.5 or Goex Express FFg. When I've used slightly slower powders I've found that ?I get gas cutting on the recovered bullets, at least with 16:1 alloy.

I also get much better results with a 0.060" LDPE wad. I did some tests with no wad, veg wads, and LDPE, and the LDPE was the clear winner.

I can post my loads if you like. I have a post on here that I made when I got the second rifle. I will find it and add a link...

Chris.

[Gunlaker]

Keith, here is my old post:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?304836-zero-load-development

Chris.

[Gunlaker]

Keith, here are some results I've had, plus a bunch of stuff Dan sent me regarding his experiments with that chamber. I have four rifles with that chamber, two .45-70's, a .45-2.4, and a .45-2.6.

http://www.bcsingleshot.com/DansStuff/DanPaperPatch.html

I hope it's of use to you.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Looks like you need more wad stack, felt wads work well, or a larger diameter bullet. Sizing the cases, and then expanding them back so that the bullet is a very tight fit will also help bring about a more harmoneous outcome... Heck even Sharps reloading instructions back in the day said to use the "shell reducer"

[Gunlaker]

Oop. One more important thing. If this is Dan's reamer design, be aware that when he did the design he had some short WW brass on had so spec'd the reamer to use brass trimmed shorter than 2.1". Trim it only after fireforming though. I use 2.092" on my two .45-70's.

My second link includes the reamer spec.

Chris.

[Lead pot]

Keith what I see in your patches is not uncommon to see the inner wrap not shredded like you see rfd's remnants this could happen with paper to thick, bullet to hard, bullet undersized to much for the alloy hardness to the bore or a combination of all. I don't see any signs of gas blow by but I do see patches that went through a fouled bore. This could be the cause for lead smears from the patch getting pushed back when loading a fouled throat or if a paper ring was between the chamber end and the 45 degree transition into the throat, this could push the patch back a little to expose dry alloy.
Your .08 alloy test dimple is in line with my Lee lead tester for 1/16 alloy and 1/16 alloy is a good alloy to use for the Jim 443540M and the Jim 446545M. But if the 443540 drops out at .442 or .441 and your using .0015" or .0018" paper then you might get a gas cut if the wad stack is not good enough to seal the bore especially with the .45-70 with out using a lube wad and a single card under the bullet. This is what the left bullet was loaded with. The center bullet was loaded right at bore diameter with 1/16 alloy but it has a .023" card over the powder a 1/8" lube wad and a plastic wad under the bullet with 68 grains of 1.5 Swiss. The gas cut bullet was loaded with 82 gr of 1.5 Swiss in the .45-70 also. the dimple is where the shank meets the ogive.
213622
Here are 5 bullets like yours patched .002" under bore diameter. The left and far right are unfired. Note the slight gas cuts in the first two and the light engravings on the shank of the rest. These 5 were shot with the .45-90 using 83 gr of 2F.
213623
The 446545M is a excellent bullet patched with .0018" or .002" paper and breach seated with a full load of powder in a clean throat using 1/16 alloy. But patched with .0015" paper it will be a hard thumb push to load that might roll the patch back some when chambering the round.

[Keith]

Well thanks to all for the replies. Lots to try.
After getting the bore clean last night I coated it in Kroil. This morning two patches each bought out a sliver of lead. The bore feels uniform all the way except right near the muzzle there is a tightening but I cant see anything. It wouldnt have a choke would it.
Chris , I dont think the reamer could be the DanT one the angle looks to be more 45 deg than 25 wouldnt you think from the photo.
My fired case mouths measure .473 OD
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4724/39445317034_d53bf09ffe_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/236Dyv1). (https://flic.kr/p/236Dyv1) by Keith Cree (https://www.flickr.com/photos/141809689@N05/), on Flickr

[BRUCE MOULDS]

the fired patches we see do not really suggest leading.
the ones that blew away could probably tell more of a story.
the problem with the 45/70 is that you lose a lot of case capacity with fancy wad stacks, and that limits long range performance.
long soft wadstacks also reduce bumpup, which in the extreme will stop the bullet spinning from the start of its travel.
the odg used as thin as a piece of paper as an overpowder wad, just enough to keep the powder in the case.
in that chamber, sizing cases is unlikely to help in any way.
in fact it might do harm to patches as bullets are seated.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Keith]

It seems the consensus is gas cutting.
I will spend some more time getting the lead out, then load some more with the same powder but compressing more to fit in some more wads. I dont have any LDPE but have some auto cork gasket to try.
I have some Swiss stashed away, not enough to use for continual use but enough to experiment with to see if it bumps up more.
If my 443 mould would drop at 443 that might be better too, but not much I can do about that unless I lap it.
The 446 is too big for this tight barrel unless I make a push through sizer.
Lead pots pictures tell the story. Thank goodness for snow drifts:)
At least I am not alone in this . I see others have had similar problems as this before. I will persevere.
Keith

[Gunlaker]

Keith do you have any of the plastic coffee can lids? I think they are LDPE. In my .45-70 I have not had good luck with cork. It seems to significantly reduce the bump up of the bullet which exacerbates gas cutting.

I've got a couple of rifles that can't shoot the 446" bullets so I size them down to 0.445". Lubing them with RCBS case lube before sizing works well ( as long as you remove the lube :-).

The reamer does look like it is less than 45 degrees. Did Dave not give you a reamer print, or any other information? I know he does have all of Dan's prints on file, that's why I suspected it might be one of his.

If I had no other choice I'd use a lube cookie between card wads until I got some LDPE.

Chris.

[25ring]

Keith,Try some straight turpentine on a tight patch,tight enough that you have to use a mallet to get it through.You'll get all the lead out after a few patches.Then try a 1/8" thick rubber cork wad,I think you'll have better luck. FWIW--Mike.

[Gunlaker]

Oh, Keith I just remembered. The Dan T reamer is 25 degrees not 45 so that is likely what you have.

Chris.

[Lead pot]

Here you go Keith. Here is a print Dan sent me during a discussion we had about tight chambers.
If the reamer you have from Manson this might be it.

213663

[Gunlaker]

That's the one. Same as in the second link I posted. It works very well once you find what it likes.

Chris.

[country gent]

WHat is the dia of the wads your using? a to small dia wad may not seal enough. You may want to make a wad punch that cuts a wad around .463-.465 dia so it starts snug in the case and is slightly compressed under the bullet to aid the seal.

[BrentD]

I am late to this party, but here is a good picture of what gas cutting looks like on the patches.

http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/PPB/Bullets/Larry's%20burned%20paper%20patch.jpg

If your patches don't look like this, or worse, then you really can't have gas cutting because the gas has to get to the patch before it can attack the lead. Kurt's gas cut bullets are really dramatic examples, but we rarely get to catch our bullets like that. The patches are more accessible to us and this is what they have to look for, or worse. Notice the charred edges to the slashed in the paper. That is the key.

[Keith]

Well I had an interesting couple of hours at the range today.
Loaded all Swiss 2F as a trial.
First target was 80 grains measure of Swiss then the thin card then a wad of Poly material I found. Compressed to give me 0.2 inch to seat the bullet into.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4711/39265857715_0de54177cc_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/22PMMuP). (https://flic.kr/p/22PMMuP) by Keith Cree (https://www.flickr.com/photos/141809689@N05/), on Flickr

That didnt look to bad. Funny its in a circle.
All the patched holes are yesterdays lot. Hardly keep them on the paper.
I suspect I had a little leading that picked up shot after shot.
Next was the same load but with a second wad of some gasket material I found , like thick card.
I moved the sights to print in the white so I could see it easier. 1st shot was a bit high so came down.
second was OK the a high flier then the next two were OK.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4629/39453463224_769c732bba_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/237nj5y). (https://flic.kr/p/237nj5y) by Keith Cree (https://www.flickr.com/photos/141809689@N05/), on Flickr

The last group was with just a thin card like yesterday with Wano.
One of the patches shows gas cutting like Brents. I think this started leading and the group went to pot like yesterday.
Looks like 1 thin card is not enough.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4613/26291711738_16690b0184_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/G4iTUN). (https://flic.kr/p/G4iTUN) by Keith Cree (https://www.flickr.com/photos/141809689@N05/), on Flickr

Looks like we are on the right track but:)
Here are the patches I found. Not as windy as yesterday. The burnt one in the centre.
All these are 1 inch wide. Looks like the outer is confetti OK but the inner not quite.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4752/39265870125_920abd7795_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/22PMRbM). (https://flic.kr/p/22PMRbM) by Keith Cree (https://www.flickr.com/photos/141809689@N05/), on Flickr

Here is the stuff I used for the wads.
Next I need to do it again with Wano and compare.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4720/40132096922_cd030f6f15_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/249kuey). (https://flic.kr/p/249kuey) by Keith Cree (https://www.flickr.com/photos/141809689@N05/), on Flickr

[Don McDowell]

Keith just for kicks and grins, try another batch of loads with just the gasket material, and be mindful of your wiping routine and bench technique. Might want to make a quick lead mine check before you shoot the next batch, just in case.

[Gunlaker]

Keith my .45-70's never shred the inner patch completely but still show great accuracy. It looks like your load is similar to what I'm using. I've found that these chambers are pretty picky when it comes to powder brand and granulation. Swiss, or the discontinued Goex Express FFg worked best for me. The Old Eynsford had some problems with gas cutting. Interestingly when I'd recover a handful of bullets only one in a batch might show a small amount of gas cutting. Not severe like some of the examples that Kurt has shown, but just a little bit around the groove corners on the occasional bullet. I haven't seen that with Swiss 1.5 in these rifles. Must be just the right burn rate for my 16:1 alloy.

It does seem that you've got the same reamer as me so once you've shot the cases a few times, be sure that they aren't the full 2.10" long or they will run over the 25 degree angle at the end of the chamber.

It does look like a good improvement though!

Chris.

[Gunlaker]

Keith one more thing. When you have patch remnants with little black lines on them where the grooves are that generally means that there is still fouling in the groove corners.

Chris.

[Keith]

Yes, I am happy now, you guys got me on the right track. I will repeat both the wads with Swiss and Wano .
I will try and find a bit thinner poly.
The gasket measures 0.05 and the poly 0.12 and I shot this at 110 yards. First time I have shot lead in over 12 months so a bit rusty
I have the barrel soaking in Kroil again , see what comes out.

[Keith]

Keith one more thing. When you have patch remnants with little black lines on them where the grooves are that generally means that there is still fouling in the groove corners.

Chris.

Yes, that was mentioned earlier, I think by Kurt. I am short stroking 2 wet patches back and forth, then 2 dry but looks as there may still be some fouling in the corners. I bought a bunch of brushes and nuts and am in the process of making pigs or gophers with those round felts. See if that gets into the corners better.

[Keith]

Here you go Keith. Here is a print Dan sent me during a discussion we had about tight chambers.
If the reamer you have from Manson this might be it.

213663

Thats it. I just went back through my emails and Dave did send me that same print. Same as Chris,s also.

[Gunlaker]

The round felts are pretty good I think. I have been experimenting with the BACO wipers and my .45-2.4" version of Dan's chamber. I run two of them through per pass, and a dry patch. In this respect it's not faster than regular patching between shots, but it gets the bore cleaner and dryer.

The o-rings on the BACO wipers are good at keeping the "wiping juice" out of the rifles action which I think is a good thing on a highwall action in particular, where the wiping fluid can soak into the stock if you have too much of it going into the action.

Chris.

[BrentD]

Chris, seal the interior of your stock with epoxy - or at least a oil-polyurethane stock finish like Permalyn (from Laurel Mt. Forge). That will greatly reduce your concerns.

[Keith]

The round felts are pretty good I think. I have been experimenting with the BACO wipers and my .45-2.4" version of Dan's chamber. I run two of them through per pass, and a dry patch. In this respect it's not faster than regular patching between shots, but it gets the bore cleaner and dryer.

The o-rings on the BACO wipers are good at keeping the "wiping juice" out of the rifles action which I think is a good thing on a highwall action in particular, where the wiping fluid can soak into the stock if you have too much of it going into the action.

Chris.

I was wondering how the O rings would get into the corners of the lands.
I was thinking of cutting washers from rubber or neoprene then using scissors or a stanley knife and cutting small radial slits around the circumference. Where the slits line up with the corners they should wipe better. Perhaps.
If I get hooked on this PP stuff, I might setback and rechamber my 2.4 also. But I find it time consuming getting the barrel to screw up tight with the foresight dovetail in the right place. Once I took a whisker too much off and the sight was too far over so had to go another revolution. We learn by experience.
Keith

[BrentD]

keith, it is easy to make your own bore critters and using neoprene washers to for the squeegee function. 1/2" washers from your hardware store will work well. some need to be replaced more often (yearly) than others (2-3 yrs) but just watch for wear on the edges.

[Lead pot]

Keith if you have one gallon plastic ice cream buckets down your way :) they make very good .043" polly wads. My kids save the empty's for me. :)

Also it looks like you have a good wad punch. You might cut some wads out of a old leather belt and use those wads for your bore pigs instead of the O rings they wipe the bore better and also get in the tight corners.

[Edward]

Lots of info here ,will have to book mark this

[BRUCE MOULDS]

to quote keith.
"if i get hooked on this pp stuff...."
better just face it keith, you already are.
keep on having fun.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Gunlaker]

Chris, seal the interior of your stock with epoxy - or at least a oil-polyurethane stock finish like Permalyn (from Laurel Mt. Forge). That will greatly reduce your concerns.

Thanks Brent. I've been meaning to look into it.

Chris.

[Keith]

Not sure about today. The poly wad load did OK but the gasket wad started to group with Swiss then a flyer , a couple in the group and another flyer.
The Wano with the gasket wad was a washout. Third shot another lead mine
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4626/28415638659_fb4fc0cfeb_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/KhZzot). (https://flic.kr/p/KhZzot) by Keith Cree (https://www.flickr.com/photos/141809689@N05/), on Flickr
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4767/26323065228_fe22c52d0b_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/G75Add). (https://flic.kr/p/G75Add) by Keith Cree (https://www.flickr.com/photos/141809689@N05/), on Flickr
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4757/26323058248_ae324c7f5b_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/G75y8S). (https://flic.kr/p/G75y8S) by Keith Cree (https://www.flickr.com/photos/141809689@N05/), on Flickr

I think the boolit is a bit undersize at 442. I will make a push through sizer at 443 and put the 446 slugs through it and duplicate everything I did today with the bigger projectile.

[Don McDowell]

Might want to make your sizer to .445 or .444 first.

[Keith]

If I make the hole in the sizer 445 I cant make it smaller.
If I make it 443 and its still too small I can open it up to 444 and then 445 etc

All my cases are 2.1 so I am going to do as Chris suggested and trim to 2.092 to suit this reamer.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

keith,
those poly wads seem to show a trend.
it will be interesting to see what effect trimming has.
keep safe,
bruce.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

a thing i have been meaning to try for a gas seal wad is beeswax in warmer weather, and beeswax softened a little for colder conditions.
under the bullet would go a wax paper wad.
under that a 0.030 poly and under that a wax wad about 0.060 or a little thicker.
then under that a wax paper over powder wad.
in warm conditions, the wax would bump up very quickly and easily and similarly in colder weather thinned just a little with tallow of the like, to possibly seal effectively.
this is not to be a lube, but rather a gas seal.
felt soaked in a firm lube and then squeezed a bit before cooling has proven to be a good seal.
too much lube left in the felt can cause differing thickness wads.
you can order felt about 0.060 and 0.120 thick, and the thinner version is easier to cut with square sides.
i have found felt to give good bumpup in the 40/72, and also felt soaked in lube.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Keith]

Yes it seems the gas seal is the problem. Also Wano seems weaker than Swiss in that regard. I hope I can make Wano work as I have a fair bit.
Can you lot get Swiss down there?
Keith

[BRUCE MOULDS]

keith,
before you trim cases, a study of fireformed brass might be worthwhile.
if fired cases show no rediction in diameter at the moth compaerd to a little in the case, and there is no sign of the neck being formed to the shape of the 25 degree transition, then you might not need to.
yes we can get swiss here.
there is a place in qld that sells wano, and it is reported that they are also now handling swiss.
possible a pyrotechnic company?
keep safe,
bruce.

[rfd]

Chris, seal the interior of your stock with epoxy - or at least a oil-polyurethane stock finish like Permalyn (from Laurel Mt. Forge). That will greatly reduce your concerns.

brent, i find that using quality hobby shop (medical grade) water thin CYA (CYAnoacrylate "super glue") works faster and better than epoxy for both hardening and sealing wood. this is not about bedding the stock, but of stabilizing the wood. any superfluous hair cracks or grain issues can be mitigated by dusting them with baking soda, then wicking in the water thin CYA. this wicking in process will unload noxious CYA fumes and needs to be done upwind and/or with a bandana mask.

[Don McDowell]

If I make the hole in the sizer 445 I cant make it smaller.
If I make it 443 and its still too small I can open it up to 444 and then 445 etc

All my cases are 2.1 so I am going to do as Chris suggested and trim to 2.092 to suit this reamer.

Most of Dan's 45 cal. paper patch chambers were designed to shoot a .444 bullet in 7 lb Ubrect paper or Seth Cole 55 w.

[Huvius]

One thing that may be something to think about is whether the Krieger barrel is appropriate for paper patched boolits.
Looking at your paper patches, the cuts are very sharp and mostly through both layers of patch indicating that your barrel’s rifling is very sharp and the lands cut at 90deg.
Original Metford and Henry barrels do not cut the patches but instead appear to compress the paper in the lands and the wind resistance peels the patch off the bullet as it exits the barrel.
You will see the patch is separated by tiny tears rather than clean cuts. Sort of the same action as creasing a piece of paper with your fingernail and then tearing it along the crease.
A sharp land will slice right through the patch exposing the corners directly to the lead and that is why your cleaning patch has the lead deposit right at the edge too.
Maybe that is why Krieger lists Henry rifled barrels mentioning that they are made for paper patched boolits.
Your barrel will smooth out over time of course one would think and maybe then it will be kinder to paper patches.

[Gunlaker]

You should be able to make the Wano powder work quite well with a lube wad, or beeswax like Bruce mentioned. In my .45-2.4" rifle with Dan's P chamber I can shoot plain Goex Fg with a lube wad and at 200m it's easily as accurate as any other load. But I was never able to get the velocity SD anywhere close to as good as the Swiss 1.5 load with poly wads.

One thing I will explore further ( likely in the distant future ) is Kenny Wasserberger's wad stack which uses a card wad, 0.060" LDPE, and a 0.125" felt wad. I've used it in the .45-2.4" case with Old Eynesford 1.5 and it shot very well. Same as the Swiss 1.5 load with just an LDPE wad, but the velocity stats are just a little worse on average. Maybe not statistically significant though. I once tried this wad stack in the .45-70 but it didn't work with Swiss 1.5. I think the wads reduced the bump up too much. It would probably work with FFFg though.

On a side note, I have had Schuetzen FFg work quite well in a .38-55 shooting breech seated PP bullets. I seated them with a 0.060" wad under the bullet. I think Schuetzen FFg is repackaged Wano powder.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

I'm wondering if you don't have a rough spot in the lead of that chamber. The three groups on the top half of that target all show some promise, but then you get to the last load and things go to pot and you get another lead mine. Could be a burr left behind, tearing the patch, or possibly a small chip left a gouge.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

while kenny's wadstack suits the 2 7/8" case well, it might not do so well in the 2 1/10" case.
the long stack itself could absorb a lot of the bumping up effect, and this is evidenced by the fact that kenny talks about short patching.
his big charges would have an edge here compared to the shorter case.
he is trying to reduce the charge, and does it with a long wadstack and deep seated bullets.
those deep seated bullets are probably doing most of their initial sealing in the groove diameter chamber.
as the bullets move forward, they are groove diameter moving into the barrel, again offering a seal.
putting that stack into the 2.1" case would reduce it to a mid range only proposition due to reduced powder capacity
good bumpup is required to bang the bullet into the rifling for a seal, and there is less powder to do this.
maybe seating the bullets deeper in the case would offer a seal there, but it would also challenge case capacity, and in the tight chamber might not take the rifling where the bullet was in the case.
pure lube wads will offer a solid hydraulic affect against the bullet base, offering max bumpup.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Keith]

Could be Don, it feels smooth enough though. I will check it out.
I was blaming the Wano as not having enough grunt to bump up the undersize boolit with just the .060 card behind it.
When it had the poly wad behind it I figured the poly was protecting the base and didnt need the bump up.
I will see what the extra thou makes when I get the sizer made.
My wife shoots F class with a 6.5 - 284 so I have a bunch of her old stainless barrels here. I have to fit and chamber a new one every couple of years.They are usefull for turning into things that need a ready made pilot hole.
When I get the thing grouping it will be interesting to put it over the chrony and see the difference between the Wano and the Swiss.

[Keith]

keith,
before you trim cases, a study of fireformed brass might be worthwhile.
if fired cases show no rediction in diameter at the moth compaerd to a little in the case, and there is no sign of the neck being formed to the shape of the 25 degree transition, then you might not need to.
yes we can get swiss here.
there is a place in qld that sells wano, and it is reported that they are also now handling swiss.
possible a pyrotechnic company?
keep safe,
bruce.

I bought the Wano from a mob outside Brisbane called Combat Simulation Systems, back in 2016. Perhaps its them. I will give them a call later if I think the Swiss does better. I still have 3 kilos of Swiss 2F to play with. Its in a round cardboard tube type container. I dont think they do it like that anymore.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

huvius, some metford rifling had rounded profles, but others f his designs were square.
sharps rigby and remington were square.
henry rifling has virtual knife edges, possibly designed to cut through patches.
most modern rifling is square, and works well with thin patches.
with the old rounded metford segmental rifling, some writing suggests slitting the patches with a knife prior to firing.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Don McDowell]

Keith the Swiss will likely be a bit faster. But sometimes the higher velocity isn't the answer, and can be a group opener.
One thing I've noticed in using the Swiss and WANO (it's called Schuetzen here) the Wano does not like any compression, does it's best work with the wad and bullet in firm contact with the base of the bullet. Swiss can go do well in some instances with compression.

[Huvius]

huvius, some metford rifling had rounded profles, but others f his designs were square.
sharps rigby and remington were square.
henry rifling has virtual knife edges, possibly designed to cut through patches.
most modern rifling is square, and works well with thin patches.
with the old rounded metford segmental rifling, some writing suggests slitting the patches with a knife prior to firing.
keep safe,
bruce.

Point well taken.
Looking at no fewer than eight original Henry bores, some worn, some very much like new, the edges are not so sharp as what would be expected in a modern barrel made for jacketed boolits.
Of course, the Metford rifling I am referring to is the typical rounded land style which is very smooth with no sharp edges. I have an original Gibbs 461 No.2 sporter and a Westley Richards 1881 match rifle with this particular Metford rifling.
My belief is that these old dead guys knew more about making a paper patched bullet fly with black powder than any of us will ever know so why fight the force...

[BrentD]

This is an interesting and puzzling thread. I'll just make a few rambling comments because I don't see and instant solution here.

1. There is no reason to shorten the brass unless it needs it. There are lots of reasons, NOT to shorten the brass if it doesn't need it. Be sure you need it before you start. I feel for a lip or rim on the inside of the case mouth using a small pin or needle.

2. Cyanocryolate seals well, but if the rifle isn't bedded, using epoxy will give you a 2 for 1 advantage. If it doesn't need bedding, stock finish or varnish can be dripped into the screw holes to seal them, unlike Cyanocryolate. I like the superglues a lot for fixing cracks and hardening soft wood too. Minwax's wood hardener is another product that can do this much like CYA.

3. The Krieger barrel and "normal" rifling is fine for paper patches. That's been proven many times. But there might be something else wrong with the barrel - ie, damage or some serious imperfection.

4. Complicated wad stacks might be good for fouling control when shooting dirty, for making reduced loads, or some other special reasons, but they are not needed for top drawer accuracy with paper patched bullets and zero leading. I started using a complicated wad stack for a chicken bullet last year. I gave up accuracy for less recoil. Your gun should shoot fine without any such complicated wad combos. Wads that are 0.06" should get the job done every time. I think my wads measure .460" but I use them in my tightest .45 chambers with 0.450" bullets.

5. If it is ever going to shoot, it will do so with Swiss. I'd save the Wano for something else. Focus on the Swiss, because then you have ruled out one possible issue. If that gun can be made to shoot, then it will do it with Swiss. Start with minimal compression and work up from that.

6. I'm trying to convince myself that the lead in your photo is really just shiny clumps of fouling that, if rubbed with a wet finger, smear into the wiping patch. I'm not being very successful, but sometimes black powder fouling can look like lead. Whatever is causing that leading has to be dealt with. I don't recall what you are doing for wiping between shots, but two wet, one dry is standard protocol and should be good enough, maybe even overkill, until you get this gun up and running right. If you are wiping well, then this is a heck of a mystery and I would beg, borrow, or steal a bore scope and spend a lot of time with it. I'd also be curious to know where in the bore the lead is occurring. Can you locate it by cleaning just short sections of the bore at a time? If not, then shoot, clean gently, and bore scope before removing the lead.

7. I don't think the old dead guys had us beat in paper patching. In the last decade, we have made big improvements and I don't think we lose anything to whatever they were doing. There is no bullet, paper or wad combo that hasn't been tried many times in the last few years - we communicate among us better than they did too, so we learn more from what others are doing, and in the end, I don't think we have left any stones unturned. I also think we meet or exceed the quality of their barrels, brass, primers, bullet shapes (big deal), sights, and just about any component. The one and only advantage they may have over us is their powder - and I am doubtful it was much better, if at all. Of course, we will never know how good they really were. We know only a little bit about the best targets by the best shooters. If we similarly cherry pick from modern shooters, I think we would find very comparable shooting.

So, I don't know what to do here except go after that leading, if it is for real. Until you solve that, you won't solve the accuracy issue. That is just a really tough nut this time.

One last thought -can you make a precise chamber cast or maybe a chamber swaging that includes a good bit of the throat of the barrel and up into the rifling and then have someone with talent and equipment measure it for run out and concentricity to see if you might have a buggered chamber?

I wish I could offer something more constructive.

[Lead pot]

Keith your just going to have to do some homework your self to find out why your getting lead smears shooting PP bullets. If the patch is high enough past the shank end for the alloy your using lead should not come into contact with the bore unless the chamber end is ahead of the case mouth with a gap to large, in other words the case is to short. A 45 degree transition is more damaging then a 25 degree but even a 25 degree is enough that it can shave off the lead through the patch and leave a paper ring behind and that paper ring can cut deep enough to shave off lead the next shot fired. A case to long for the chamber will cause major damage to the bullet shank especially if you did not chamfer the case mouth. This will pull past the chamber end and it will crimp the case mouth going into the throat and cut the patch and it might even strip off the portion that is in the case. A roll crimp is death for a lead bullet GG or PP.
Below is a bullet I deep seated because I was having a lead problem with this particular rifle so I made a chamber cast to find out what the exact length of the chamber was and started checking the cases for length and a few were only .010" and less short of the 45 degree chamber end and this left some room for the bullet to upset into this gap and as it started down the bore shaved off lead leaving a ring behind. You can see the ring depression ahead of the patch in the picture below. This made me trim down some 3-1/4" cases I had to close this gap between the case mouth and the chamber end, well this caused another problem right off the bat. The case pulled into the throat and it tore off more of the bullet base back from the case mouth and it also could be seen on the case mouth were it looked like it had a roll crimp when the bullet drug it into the throat. I looked for this bullet in my files but I must have buried it with out properly marking the folder. I then trimmed the cases .005" short of the chamber end and this solved the paper rings to a point but not completely. I ended up making a throating reamer for this rifle and changed the 45 degree chamber end to a 5/2.5 degree compound throat and the bullets are now unmarked by that 45 degree wall at the chamber end. This was a drastic measure but it solved my problem.
Kurt

214006

[BRUCE MOULDS]

we have all tried to help here, but brent and kurt have cut to the chase, distilling the essence of this.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Keith]

we have all tried to help here, but brent and kurt have cut to the chase, distilling the essence of this.
keep safe,
bruce.

They sure have. Thanks to all who have contributed to this. I have picked up a lot of tips.
The culpret to the leading I am sure was the thin card wads I was using then perhaps a too small bullet.
Made the sizer. The .446 mould drops at .445 so I am sizing to .443. The bullet I started with was .442.
I have had to chamfer the case mouth to a knife edge to get the PP slug in without tearing. Thats the problem with going bigger. I might be able to open the sizer half a thou more. We will see.

[Keith]

These loads are the same as the last except for the thou bigger bullet.
I am happy with the way its going now. No leading even with the Wano and gasket wads.
The verticle needs attending to but I would be more happy if I could hold 2 min groups. Its equal to or maybe better than I could do with greasers. I am not a top shot. No scope just an old Pedersoli long range tang sight with a Hadley eyecup.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4619/26360660088_454cf88b63_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/GapgRs). (https://flic.kr/p/GapgRs) by Keith Cree (https://www.flickr.com/photos/141809689@N05/), on Flickr

Notice the Wano groups on the left are a couple of mins lower than the Swiss for the same elevation.

Keith

[BrentD]

Keith, I don't see too much to complain about there. Looks like you have her going fairly well. Looks like maybe 1.5" group's for the most part? Is that about right?

Experiment with a couple more grains of powder (and compress back to the same point), and see what happens.

Are you using an aperture front sight? If not, you can probably tighten things up a bit more with a better front insert, if your rifle uses them.

Brent

[Don McDowell]

Looking good. Also looks like you need to run down some more 2f Swiss.

[Keith]

Brent, the bottom RH group with the Swiss and poly is 2 inches outside to outside vertical.
Also yes , I am using a Shaver front sight with his apertures.
Don, yes I should concentrate with the Swiss 2F and if Bruce is right , may be able to get more. :)

The loads with the gasket wad are cutting the inner wrap a bit but the loads with the thick poly are not so much.
I am trying to find a thinner poly.
Kurt. I dont think our ice cream containers are as thick as yours.

[BrentD]

Keith, thicker poly, not thinner. go for 0.060" or so. For me, at least, that works best. What is the wad's diameter?

Do the Shaver apertures every fade out on you? They have a very thin annulus, or at least the ones I used to use did. Thicker annuli will save eyestrain and produce a better sight picture in my experience.

[Lead pot]

Keith that's OK But I bet the Ice Cream is good :)
You got things together. Your on the way!!
Kurt

[Gunlaker]

Like Brent says, go with 0.060" poly. I've tried a lot of things in Dan's PP chambers and nothing has beat a 0.060" poly wad. I use the biggest bullet I can reliably chamber with either 8lb Seth Cole paper, or slightly thicker (0.002") Esleeck paper.

Over the last year I've been dry wrapped bullets. I think the rifle prefers them a little bit. Difficult to be 100% certain but they work very well.

I've got some rifles with the Shaver front apertures. I usually use two inserts at a time to get a thicker annulus.

Chris.

[Keith]

Keith, thicker poly, not thinner. go for 0.060" or so. For me, at least, that works best. What is the wad's diameter?

Do the Shaver apertures every fade out on you? They have a very thin annulus, or at least the ones I used to use did. Thicker annuli will save eyestrain and produce a better sight picture in my experience.

The gasket wad is .060 and the poly stuff is .120. Twice as thick. I cant remember where it came from but nearly out of it. It looks like the poly sheet that butchers used to hang in cold room doors to walk through but keep the cold in. I cant find a supplier of any .060 yet
The wad punch is a press mount from BACO. Nominally .458. All the wads thumb push into the case OK though.
Keith

[Keith]

My new bore wipes. Called" Wombats" after the Australian Hairy Nose Wombat.
Also digs holes like your Gopher.
I found one wet felt on front and one dry at the back works better than the O ring wipes.
I keep them in an Ammo box with plain water in the holes and push them through with a dry patch concentrating on the chamber.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/866/40303809335_a4954b6a60_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/24pvymp). (https://flic.kr/p/24pvymp) by Keith Cree (https://www.flickr.com/photos/141809689@N05/), on Flickr

These I used today on load development for the first time.
One lot with a newsprint over primer wad and one without.
The one without was better and that with the Wombat tightened up my group no end.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/818/40303803275_8f0dc3c4b5_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/24pvwxV). (https://flic.kr/p/24pvwxV) by Keith Cree (https://www.flickr.com/photos/141809689@N05/), on Flickr

[Gunlaker]

Looks good!

Chris.

[martinibelgian]

Keith,
Seems like improving fouling management was the answer to your problem... With PP, a barrel cannot be too clean or too dry. As to wads, I use a thick card wad .461 diameter, shoved in a .451 case. Would have to measure thickness though. EDIT: measured it and it is .076 thick.
What you also have of course is that the use of PP bullets will gradually 'clean' your barrel from residual leading, which in turn will also improve accuracy with PP. That, and the amount of wiping required between shots ;)

[BRUCE MOULDS]

the wombat.
eats roots and leaves.
australian.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Don McDowell]

Looks pretty dang good Keith.