Bismuth shot

[megasupermagnum]

I am gearing up to start dropping my own shot. I've always wanted to get a lead shot maker, but never found a good reason. Well, now I've found you can make your own Bismuth shot. I've been doing research for a while now, and it seems there is a huge variation between people who have tried it. One guy makes good shot with a different height to the coolant, the next has problems with the temperature. Overall, it seems more difficult than dropping lead shot. I was talking to a gentleman today who says he has the smaller shot sizes to work relatively well, yet finds you need a different alloy for the bigger shot E.G. #3 and larger. He was using an alloy around 20%+ of tin, and also said I needed antimony to bind the tin and bismuth. I found this very interesting, as it is the first I've heard of it. Just about everyone I've talked to has said the lead shot dripper size will produce slightly smaller bismuth shot, and that temperatures vary the shot size greatly. I am just about to build myself a PID box, so I should have decent control over the temp. I've also heard the coolant temp is another variable, but applies just as much to lead shot making. For price reasons, I'd obviously like to keep tin content down if possible, and it seems a number of people are making shot with at 94/6 bismuth-tin alloy, the same as new commercial bismuth shot. I'm wondering what antimony will get me, it would be a pain to find in a form that doesn't involve lead. I'm willing to experiment, half price bismuth shot would be awesome. I'd never need to reload steel shot again! To offset the equipment cost, I'm hoping to make a bunch of extra and sell it. #5 bismuth at $13 a pound would sell out overnight. I'd appreciate some info on the alloys people are using, dripper sizes, and any other info that pertains to making bismuth shot. I will be making lead shot to start, and will learn the process on something I can find info on all over the internet.

[bangerjim]

Bi is not cheap! From what I have seen around. Sn is cheaper. I do not make shot.

I was lucky to find many hundreds of pounds of a 140F casting alloy that is Bi56/Pb27/Sn13/Sb4 and it is amazing! It has a hardness of around 30. Like I said it melts at 140F. I use it to make antique clock replacment moldings by taking a mold IN RUBBER from existing parts. A hot cup of coffee will melt the stuff. But I paid small price per poound for it but do not use for ammo! The Bi I have seen is very expensive compaired to Pb.

Why do you want to use almost pure Bi? Pb hard alloy has always been the standard until the stupid greenies got involved. In Mn do you have that problem?

Good luck in your shot endeavor!

[ih772]

He probably wants to use it on waterfowl. I'd like to have some in #2 or BB for goose loads.

[megasupermagnum]

I've found one source that sells in 50 pound ingots, just over $6 a pound. This is indeed for waterfowl, else I'd just use lead. I am hoping to make #5 and #2. #5 should work fine, once I figure everything out. #2 seems to be hit and miss. Some people have had good luck, some not so much. I'm not going to make BB, but if I was, I'd be using a buckshot mold, not dropping it.

[jdfoxinc]

The, now dead, founder of Bismuth shot Co. Told me that any shot bigger than #6 had to be cast, it just wouldn't drop round.

[megasupermagnum]

The, now dead, founder of Bismuth shot Co. Told me that any shot bigger than #6 had to be cast, it just wouldn't drop round.

And dozens of people, including the guy who builds little-ton shot makers says otherwise.

[LeroyvdH]

And dozens of people, including the guy who builds little-ton shot makers says otherwise.

There's only one way to find out for sure. I can across casting bismuth from cleaning out my father in laws shop. He used to cast rings and pendants. Thinking about making shot with it. Keep us updated. Good luck on your venture.
Leroy

[megasupermagnum]

With nearly $1000 to start-up, I'm not just going to take a shot in the dark. If I can find the right people, it could pay off big time. There are a number of people who claim to have made good bismuth shot from a shot maker. I've personally talked to 3 on the phone, and that's were I'm stuck. Those 3 people have 3 completely different "solutions" to making their shot. The most recent is using such a high tin content, and the addition of antimony, it would be impossible to come out ahead. The other two say they are using tin around 5% or 6%, and there was no mention of antimony. Maybe someone knows about a book or a video somewhere? It definitely seems to be unexplored territory.

[RogerDat]

You yourself pointed out the numerous variables in terms of temperatures and drop heights, size and maybe even ambient temps. Composition of the drop tank etc. So it could be they are all giving you good answers in terms of what works. Different combination still gets the job done.

Assuming you are correct that the high tin alloy won't be profitable you need to dig into all the other metrics from the people who use a lower tin content. Lot of folks use a lot of different equipment, it could be that the heat source for the high tin is not as robust and the higher tin compensates, it also matters if the person using the high tin solution cares about the tin cost. Maybe he doesn't care and found if he added enough tin it worked. Problem solved.... for his use case.

You may be seeing the same difference in criteria showing up in the two commercial opinions. A company making and selling shot is more constrained in the alloy costs than a person selling shot makers. The seller of shot maker can have a successful recipe that makes the hobbyist happy since making is still cheaper than buying commercial but would bankrupt a commercial manufacturer.

[megasupermagnum]

Here's how I see the cost. I've found a source of Bismuth for $6.22 a pound, but I'm not sure what shipping would cost. I'll call it $6.50 per pound including shipping. I've been shopping around for tin, and remember there can't be lead. I am doing good if I can get a roll of solder for $16. Maybe one day I'll luck into an old plumbers supply of 95/5, but for now its about $18 a pound. At 6%, that adds $1.08 per pound for a total of $7.58 per pound for shot. At 25% tin, that increases the per pound to $11. I'm not looking to start a business, but to do this I would have to sell enough to cover the equipment costs, and possibly make enough so I am basically making my personal stash for "free". When it goes on sale, you can buy rotometals 6% tin bismuth shot for $15 per pound plus shipping. I would probably be asking around $13 a pound for my own. If I could make it for $7.58 a pound, and selling for $13 a pound, I would cover the cost in about 75 pounds sold, which should be realistic. Making it for $11 would increase that to 200 pounds, and that's just the cost of the shot maker.

[RogerDat]

I get what your saying. Making it for $11 vs buying it on sale ready made for $15 is not exactly a huge saving proposition or rapid pay off of investment. Sort of like buying COWW's for 70 cents a pound vs. buying COWW ingots here for $1 a pound. Lot less work for not much more money. Throw in propane and vehicle costs for driving around to collect them and it just stops making sense. I think you are wise to look at the entire cost picture. Not that any of us really "save" money reloading. Just shoot more.

Clearly there is a way to do the deed without all that tin because those other people say they are doing it. Just need to find out the details of how. Good luck and please post what you find out.

[dsh1106]

megasupermagnum

I took the plunge last year and bought a shotmaker (Shannon Shot-master). I spent the better part of 40 hours working through all the different ways to setup the equipment and the cooling system. I can now produce about 10-12# per hour with constant monitoring.

I had fun learning HOW TO and it was AWESOME taking some game and shoot some CLAYS, knowing I made the shot.... but for me personally I don't shoot enough to make it worth my while. I can buy 100 round packs for 19.99 plus TAX, that is about the same cost I have in loading them myself.

I understand you're talking about waterfowl loads which cost a lot more, but there are so many variables to overcome. Maybe Bi will drop easier than Pb.

I'm subscribing, maybe I can learn something new that will help me out.

Scott

[megasupermagnum]

I figured bismuth would be slower, but you are only getting 10#'s an hour of lead shot? I plan to start with lead shot to learn the process, so I have done research on it. I'm not familiar with the Shannon shot-master, but people with the Littleton shot maker, The Better Shot maker, Oasis, etc. all claim around 45#-50# per hour. The bigger 220V machines with more drippers seem to be able to run 90#+ per hour. Are you just getting that many rejects? You would think a single dripper would be capable of 10# an hour, and surely even the smallest machines have 4-5.

[dsh1106]

The Shannon has two drippers. The original paperwork indicates 20 to 25 pounds per hour, but I'm not willing to use diesel fuel as coolant.

I'm not getting a lot of rejects just keeping the setup running smooth and steady.

Alloy temp, air temp, coolant temp all have a huge affect on running speed and shot size and quality.

I was able to get 15 to 17 pounds in about 55 minutes using my lee 4-20 as a feed unit, but wasn't an exact science either.

[megasupermagnum]

I was planning to get the Oasis, which has 7 drippers. Have you considered running double drippers? I heard from a number of people about the units not being to keep up. I've heard of using a pot as a feed unit, but was hoping to get away with pre-heated ingots on a hot plate. Coolants seem to be an area of concern, I'll just have to try some and see. I've read about everything from laundry soap, to fabric softener, to some kind of glycol. I've only ever seen diesel as kind of a "top coat". I don't remember what they called it, but it was poured on top of the coolant, and didn't mix in.

[Littleton Shot Maker]

I have made a couple hundred pounds and DAD more of Bismuth shot for testing the machines and the alloy recipes….

FOR Shot: Bi 95% Tin 5% !!!!
use more tin= waste more money,
makes shot lighter too….

no better results using 10% 20% or even 30% tin just wasted cash.
AND at 5% TIN it's as close to the true weight of factory shot as you can get and nearly as hard - more fracturing and brittle too than lead with or with out Ant.

I also ran this on MY Shannon ….for 'fun'. way slow- but works in a pinch or for trials . It was better than starting up our big machines to try little changes in temp and angles, head pressure etc.

Buck shot or slugs need to be 30% tin.

$7.00 for pure Bismuth?? where?? I will take a couple hundred pound, maybe a ton at that price. WOW.
I go to Atlantic Metals , it comes alloyed already and they have it in various size pigs….

The "Littleton Shotmaker" Can and has made #4 in lead and in Bi-
I do know how do make #2- .177 cal-- Thanks to Joe K. - he wants not to be lauded but he did allot of the work on making Bi shot in #2 and BB- NO one else had been able to do it or if they have they did not call me to share the how…Joe did !! If shot that big is needed let me tell you it is very slow, requires temp reduction, and longer ramp for the shot larger than 4….

Pounds per hour for #9 - #6 is the same as lead shot , about 40- 45 pounds,

I have 2 mk90 ( 10 hole machines - in stock tonight) 220 only and 1 going out with temp controller just for this purpose, I have sold over 20 units to guys that are exclusively doing it for their water foul use..Dad and I worked with a couple VERY LARGE Co.s to get their Bi shot making up and running…and they used the info the remake 3 or 4 giant machines for commercial production…


Megasupermagnum- my email is Littletonshot@msn.com

520-370-4999 more than happy to answer any question directly…

Alan Burgess
Owner : Littleton Shot Maker Co.

I also spoke to 'Both' Kens ( both dead now I think ) at Bismuth Shot Co. they hated me and did not want me to share how we did the shot we showed them. It was better than what they had for sale back then. Had a deal with Pinnacle at one time too , but he used the wrong alloy and went belly up after the loading process did not pan out. "they" ( the folks that took over from Pinnacle) cut all those shells open to use the alloy again blended the right way….

We stared playing with the Bi shot since 2001/2002?? I can help…..? If you like..

[megasupermagnum]

Unless I'm mistaken, this is a 50# ingot for $311.10 plus shipping.

http://shop.boltonmetalproducts.com/Bismuth-9999-Ingot-50-lbs-LI700050.htm

I was under the impression you were no longer making Littleton shot makers due to health reasons. If not, I may take one. I do have a 220V outlet, but want a 110V unit.

[Littleton Shot Maker]

I only had 50 units for the 2018 year- some of the parts we had left over from 2017.

that number is now more closer to 125- 150 when the parts all get here. thanks to some very great shooters here on the Cast Boolits group. I was able to get more pans, and boxes ordered than I had expected….

1 -health issues = a real bad ear thing- rings LOUD all day long- major headaches- even some eye pain…just two to three weeks of bad dizzy spells…so bad I could not walk for a couple days, had to crawl to restroom one night, wife was mad , next day she hauled me to see the Urgent Care- getting older is not for whimps…
2 -got to get the blood pressure thing under control ( & weight) - 50% of my family have Diabetes, so these days I have way more to keep in check.

Being an A type person, I get "excited" easy to the point it looks manic-- HDAD was what one doc says, they just want to hand out pills. Some times I get passionate to the point it looks like I am mad…angry mad…so now they want to give me a pill to EVEN me out…quacks…and I won't even talk to V.A> no telling what they would do . oh wait ---NOTHING !



I have had to go back to school for re-training in another unrelated field,

NOT SHUTTING DOWN- just looking for work out side the HOME/ Shop...

As it happens we got a boost of sales in the last 2-3 weeks, which helped me get more STUFF ordered to keep going with out having to raise prices again - YET…

Mega- if you call or email, let me know it's you- Forum member get $50 off retail- that's $375- plus shipping…other wise retail is $425. - …and if you need parts for the machine you have now. again let me know I have discounted rates for FORUM members.

[megasupermagnum]

I'll certainly give you a call. I currently have no shot maker, so this is all new to me. As for the bismuth price, if that $6.22 a pound is true, that's by far the best I've found, and I couldn't ask for much better. Other sources are closer to $8.75 a pound, as I'm sure you are well aware. I've always wondered about a group buy. At this time, I couldn't commit to a bunch, but I'd have to wonder what kind of price we could get if a bunch of guys got together for an order in the tons. I know some guys on the duck hunting forums would be interested.

[Littleton Shot Maker]

That is the best price for pure Bi I have seen. it took a huge drop- I remember it being 16$ per pound PLUS tin….that about 02? 03? but Tin was not as hight as it is now- Tin is a killer .

One Co. I talked with : 1 pound or 1 ton there was no break- at a tractor trailer load I got a break of .02 per pound…not enough to justify the bulk buy for me.

I still have 200-300 # of Bi sitting around.
I don't use it. Or shoot ducks…
where we used to live the rules where going to change: if we wanted to hunt public land it had to be NON LEAD-
AND any land ( even private) 1/4 miles from any wetlands, stream, creek, dry lake beds too, even if shooting quail and dove we where going to have to use NON lead…
"this" is what got me started in the wanting to make shot -
and then ultimately ended up with the Littleton Shot Co..
Jerry was getting pretty old and worn out from trying to 'fix guys' trying to make shot-
I spoke with him tons. and he was not a PEOPLE person…which was cool by me ....thats what happens I think when you have to re-hash the same stuff for 20 years over and over…?
we got the Bi strictly to test machines and alloys…… and later shoot Dove or Pheasants, but we moved! Testing for Black Powder we cast up some buck shot, that's how I ended up with 30 and 32 and 36 cal. balls in Bi and #9 and #7 1/2 shot I won;t be shooting….plan was to convert it to #4 or #2 and sell it off...

[megasupermagnum]

Here in MN, we are facing similar issues. I'm not sure on the current status, but if the bill goes through, lead shot will be effectively banned on a majority of public land in the lower 2/3rds of the state for ALL animals (rifles and handguns excluded). I think this is the 2nd time this has been tried this decade, we managed to fight it off so far. I'd consider myself a waterfowl hunter above all else. Turkey, deer, small game, and everything else is just what I hunt the rest of the year.

[richhodg66]

The KDWP lands around here have gone to non toxic shot only, even for doves and such. Seems like this is going to be a growth industry soon.

Where would you find a mold for #5 shot? Wow, that would be a small thing to cast.

I have been mandated to use non lead pellets for the air rifle team I coach, so I've been keeping the spent pellets rather than throwing them away. Eventually I'll get around to casting some #4 buck shot with it for trying out on coyotes. If I could get a bird shot mold that small, I might give that a try instead.

[Littleton Shot Maker]

#5 shot is dropped…#4 shot is dropped---#2 was made but not as round as LEAD but better than heavy shot or any other non- lead substitute ( other than steel) for the roundness-
BUT Bi by nature does not want to be round…it has a strange texture. that is the #2 reason for the %5 tin added to the mix….

I cast some .22 balls..- that was a big hassle but doable…..I won;t do it again though….some one else put it "not worth the juice for the amount of effort to squeeze " I think it goes?

We drop #5 and #4 lead now….and have made bigger too….it's just not a perfect 'round' pellet 100% of the time….

[dsh1106]

…and if you need parts for the machine you have now. again let me know I have discounted rates for FORUM members.

Hi Alan

Any chance you have or make the Shannon style drippers? I've tried the standard bolts in both single hole and dual holes but they don't work as well as the Shannon design. I'd like to try #4 or #5 shot with my shotmaster.

Scott

[Littleton Shot Maker]

Scott

I used my own drippers made in house……..the unit we got even though it was never used did not have the original drippers….

Some of those ( Shannon's) where sold with out the holes to even install the drippers- so you could have 2 or up to 4 holes BUT it would not ( heat wise) do a good job of keeping up….so 2 was the norm. All this after 'you' drilled the face of the Al. pan. Not the sort of thing most folks want to do after buying a new unit but it was an OPTION….

In general:

I don;t do doubles - I can but you need to call or email that in and we can go over that in detail dependent on your requirement and the parts you may have or need to get to make it all work well.

I don;t stock them nor do I recommend them to 90% of those folks asking for them.

IF you have extra melting pots ( large like 40-90 pounder), temp controllers, time , some extra money then almost anything can be done - BUT as a reloader I am frugal. ANd tripling the cost of the unit to maybe increase the production by 20-% in not worth it. I would run two machine side by side before going to all that work? Just me though.

In short - the drippers drip- the elements melt- the coolant makes the SHOT ROUND! the ramp does not round the shot- it slows it down a bit before pellets hit the quench- like the 100-120 foot drop from towers but in liquid.

…the rate of production is governed by Gravity. that is a constant here on Earth at Sea Level any way….you can add more dripper holes but you can't make it melt fast enough to keep up with the out flow. AND this gets 10x worse when talking about BIG shot…temps have to go down to let the lead from up then drop. Physics . Some times Custom dripper heads have to be made ( done that , been there).
With Bi shot and #2 we found there was too much mass at the dripper head. So the dripper is machined to look like a cone and the drip hole does not exit the bottom, it shot straight through…only a tiny bit of metal was left to hold onto with a THIN wrench to hold while tightening the jam nut on the rear side.

Flow is controlled by the size of the BIG hole inside the drippers and the small hole where it drops from….

Side note:
When folks want a cheaper machine,cause a few let me know I am higher than the other guy...- simply I let them know: "Any one" can copy MY unit-- and they are out there.
Do they have the tons of product under their belt or had to field questions since 2001- with problems and solve them? …not with out all the work and effort that Jerry, My buddy Joe K., My dad, and even Jimmy Stewart did way before any of us did it. With out these guys there would be nothing to copy nor would they have all the info they have now….

BUT if and When folks are looking for help or need advice running their machines, that actually have the practical knowledge of making shot of many sizes and non lead then I am not sure there is any one other CO. out there with OUR years of track record doing just that. Making lead or Bi. shot!! Sorry tooting my own horn a bit I guess….rant over…

I love to help shooters make shot and I get excited when a new shooter calls and wants help. that's why I do it…there is a certain satisfaction knowing I am helping the shooting community at large and that it what my Grand Dad did, his dad, my Father…we have to pass this info on the next generation before it's too late and or lost to time...