Problems seating cast boolits

[GregLaROCHE]

Hello to everyone,

This will be my first post here, but I've heard a lot of good things about this forum.

Last week I cast my first Lead boolits .312 160 gr. for a Mosin. After some practice, my boolits were turning out pretty nice.

The next day I started to load up some rounds and had a lot of problems with them not lining up straight in the case. Seating them deeper helped some as did the crimping die. We were able to load them all and didn't have any problems and no leading. We had loaded very light loads.

I have never had this problem with jacketed bullets. I know my lead is not that hard. It is all from recovererd range scrap. I plan add something to harden it if I start increase the loads.

Can you please help me out with this problem?

Thanks

[akmac]

Look for a tool that goes in your press that will slightly flair the mouth of the case. I think Lee makes them. A great investment if you plan on doing much with lead.

[725]

When loading cast bullets (boolits in our argot), the case mouth must be "belled" ever so slightly to accept the bullet. Left narrow, as is the practice when loading jacketed, the case mouth will shear off bits of lead here and there. There are a few ways to "bell" the case mouth: Lee make a universal die to "open" the mouth slightly. Basically forcing a cone into the case mouth to achieve the belling. Opened like a funnel, the lead will enter and not shear off. Lyman makes an "M" die, that when properly adjusted, will make that funnel like opening in the brass. Other ways will, no doubt, be offered up in a few minutes.

Welcome aboard, by the way. You'll like it here.

[ShooterAZ]

The Lee universal die works well without making a major investment. Flare the neck just enough so that the gas check will be inside the neck.https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/140461/lee-universal-neck-expanding-die

[GregLaROCHE]

I was wondering if belling the case could have something to do with it. How far down do you need to go?

[mehavey]

While pistol dies come w/ a built-in case expander/mouth "bell" capability, the two-die rifle set does not.

Get/use the https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/140461/lee-universal-neck-expanding-die mentioned above to open the rifle case mouth up juuuuust enuf that the bullet/gas-check will enter about a dime's width to start. (no more)

Then seat normally, with the crimp die set to turn the mouth back into to either straight-wall (no crimp groove) or slightly crimped into the groove if there is one.

[Oily]

Just enough to start the boolit. What are you sizing your boolits to and are you using a gas check?

[Rcmaveric]

As others have stated, the Lee tool is good, it's what I use and getting the inserts for it helps specialy if you full lenght size. You can skip the inserts by minimaly resizing your necks and then just belling the case mouth. Doesnt take much bell. Just enough to sit a bullet in it. Also floating your seater die a touch helps by allowing every thing to naturally center and align. Mine arent always dead center when i place the bullet in tulhe case mouth. I eyeball it ae close as possible and the seating die do its job.

After though for the inserts. It turns the lee tool into a lyman M die so it expands the entire neck so your neck tensions doesnt swag the bullet.

Sent from my SM-G925T using Tapatalk

[Tom W.]

I have a RCBS flaring tool for my 30 caliber brass. It works like any other. The one thing I did learn is to put a note in the die box when finished as to what brass I last used it on. Flaring 30/06 brass when the die is set up for .308 makes for an interesting case...and useless.

[lwknight]

Flaring tool might not be necessary if you have an inside deburring tool. It may be worth a shot if you can get your hands on one. I know that RCBS makes them and I bought mine decades ago so I have no idea about the price.
The beburr tool is just a simple hand operated multi-fluted drill that makes a 60 degree bevel in the case mouth.

[GregLaROCHE]

Thanks for your replys. I have ordered the Lee expanding die with two different inserts. Says it will work on everything. Now I have to wait for it to come in the mail. I hope it solves the problem.

Thanks again,

Greg

[rond]

Thanks for your replys. I have ordered the Lee expanding die with two different inserts. Says it will work on everything. Now I have to wait for it to come in the mail. I hope it solves the problem.

Thanks again,

Greg

Now you will have to buy a firearm of every caliber just to see if it is true.:bigsmyl2:

[BHuij]

I will second the Lee universal expanding die. That is EXACTLY what I use for reloading Lee .312 185gr boolits in my Mosin, works great. Flare the neck just enough that the boolit will stand up in it without you having to hold it. Then when seating the boolit push it down a few millimeters, back off the ram in the press, rotate the boolit in the shell holder about 1/3 of the way around, do a few more millimeters, repeat. I usually don't have the boolit fully seated to the chosen COAL until I have pressed it down 3 or 4 different times with rotation in between. Helps it stay straight.

Be aware that the die comes with two plugs inside for different calibers of neck to bell. You can set it up so that it has only one of the plugs inside, or both of them, depending on how long your case is. Mosin cases are long, I had to set it up with only one of the two plugs inside. Hold onto the other one though ;)

[swheeler]

My Lee 7.62x54R reloading dies needed a few things done to make them cast bullet ready, they are sent ready to load .308 jacketed bullets. I ordered a 303 British expander plug from Lee and put it in the FL sizer die. The seater die would not let a .313" bullet pass through it( I now load .314 and .315 cast), I honed it out with a dowel and emery cloth until one .315" would just slip through. I use a Lyman 31 cal M die which is set to put a flare on the mouth and open the neck. Once you get rid of the bullet interference in the seater die and the excessive neck tension(bet your dies are sizing to .305-6" inside neck diameter-way too small for a cast .313 bullet) put a flare on the case mouth you will be able to seat bullets straight in the neck. .02

add. I recently bought a 30 cal Hornady universal neck sizer die, it works great except it too sizes the necks too much, .305-6 inside diameter, using the M die to expand works but you are working the brass a lot, keep the necks annealed will extend life

[FredBuddy]

NOE also makes expander plugs that open the neck up for cast boolits,
flare the case mouth and ARE USED IN THE LEE DIE.

Work like a charm.

[mdi]

Here's a hint to play with while you're waiting; if you have a pair of long nose pliers, the ones with the long, tapered jaws, hold a case in one hand, insert the pliers (closed) into the case neck, push and twist. This should give the case mouth a bit of flare, usually enough to start a cast bullet. Even with the proper tool/die, you may need to guide the bullet into the seating die as you raise the ram...

And look into Lyman's "M" dies. They flare the mouth and expand the neck to accept cast bullets...

[9.3X62AL]

I have used all 3 of the makers' tools mentioned in this thread--the Lee, the RCBS, and the Lyman M-die. My preference is the M-die, but all 3 systems with do the job. So too will mdi's suggestion--to turn the case mouth with a closed jaw set from needle-nosed pliers. Lots of ways to skin this particular cat.

Welcome to the site and to the hobby field!

[swheeler]

I don't think just flaring the case mouth will have the desired effect if the necks are being sized down too much, stuffing a .313" bullet into a .305" neck is way too much, they'll seat crooked or get sized down.

[Streetwalker]

I use Lyman's "M" dies for all my case flaring needs because that die will flare the case mouth evenly. Just keep in mind that you want to flare only enough of the mouth to just allow the bullet base with gas check to fit into the case. I use the Lee bullet seating die with its floating seating stem in all the calibers I shoot and it removes the flare from the "M" die nicely. I then use the Lee crimp die for a light final light crimp and I am good to go. My Finnish M28/30 in 7.62 Russian loves this loading set-up.

[gwpercle]

Thanks for your replys. I have ordered the Lee expanding die with two different inserts. Says it will work on everything. Now I have to wait for it to come in the mail. I hope it solves the problem.

Thanks again,

Greg

I have one and in truth it actually only flairs or bells the case mouth, which in a lot of instances is all you need. An addition to the Lee tool, that works well with getting a long rifle boolit lined up and seated straight is the NOE Expander Plug , meant to be used with the Lee Universal tool.
For $6.50 it provides an expander that works like the Lyman M Die, the absolute best way to get them started in a case.
A Lyman M-Die runs about $22.00....I can afford many more NOE plugs than M-Dies.
Go to the NOE site and look closely at the plug, you will see the two steps on it, the lower one holds the boolit straight and the upper step is the flair/bell. This little thing is worth it's weight in gold when it comes to seating boolits .
I use the Lee flare on short handgun boolits but it's easy to get them cockeyed if not careful.
Slip in the NOE Plug and seating them " No Problemo" as Arnold would say.
Gary

[RogerDat]

The Lee Universal Expanders work ok, I would suggest trying to bell as little as you can that works. The NOE plugs that fit in the Lee Expanders are more precise and allow you to size the inside to a cast lead bullet fit rather than a jacketed bullet fit. The suggested size of NOE plug is .001 over bullet size, which will be snug but not squeeze the lead down to be undersized.
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=88

Tutorial for those that want to take it to a more precise adjustment.
http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php?topic=1795.0

The Lee Quick Trim Deluxe cutter does an inside and outside chamfer of the case mouth. And there are a fair number of hand tools and power stations for doing that chamfer. The Lee is not terribly expensive and not too bad for trimming as long as your not doing massive quantities or only doing a chamfer. Above about 50 cases trimming to length after they have been fired and reloaded a few times and it starts to become real work using the hand crank. There is one that you can drive with a power screwdriver but I have not tried it.

Harbor Freight makes a chamfer tool that has a 45* and 60* chamfer bit with a handle, I use them for cleaning the military crimp from primer pocket but they can also if used gently be used to clean the inside of the case mouth.

[Taterhead]

Roger Dat is right on. The inside diameter of the neck is a critical dimension. It is not always optimal to only flair the case mouth. Correct neck tension is best when the ID is 1-2 thousandths less than the bullet diameter.

The expander ball that came with the die set is likely too narrow because it is typically designed for jacketed bullets of nominal diameter. If it is less than 2 thousandths of an inch smaller than bullet diameter, an alternate method of setting the interior diameter of the neck is useful.

As stated earlier, the NOE M style expander plugs are a good solution. A little more about them: they are catalogued showing two dimensions each, and that can be confusing. The larger dimension is the amount of flair that will be put on the case mouth. It should be slightly larger than the bullet. The smaller diameter sizes the interior diameter of the neck. Choose and expander plug where the bullet diameter is in between the two values. You already have the Lee die en route, so that's perfect. The NOE expanders work with the Lee Universal expander die in place of the included Lee case mouth expanders.

What to expect: the M expander will make a little cup around the case mouth (ever so slightly) so that the bullet starts easy, and it will sit straight when it is placed on the case for seating. Secondly, as the bullet is seated, it will be forced into a neck that is a hair smaller than bullet diameter. That will give the correct neck tension without being so tight that it swages the bullet diameter or buckles the case mouth. Should take care of the problems mentioned so far.

[GregLaROCHE]

Hi again Everyone,

Thanks for all this great info. I've reloaded for a number of years, but am really new to casting, reloading and shooting cast boolits.

I just checked out NOE's expander plugs and they seem to make a lot of sense. However, everything is starting to get very precise.

I have thought about making a cast of my chambers and throats to know what I am working with. Today with casting and resizing, it seems you can get much more precise. I was thinking about using Cerrosafe. Can I get some help and advice on doing that?

Thanks

Greg

[Hickory]

I was wondering if belling the case could have something to do with it. How far down do you need to go?

Just far enough to get about a 1\16" of the base of the boolit in the case.

[Wayne Smith]

Hi again Everyone,

Thanks for all this great info. I've reloaded for a number of years, but am really new to casting, reloading and shooting cast boolits.

I just checked out NOE's expander plugs and they seem to make a lot of sense. However, everything is starting to get very precise.

I have thought about making a cast of my chambers and throats to know what I am working with. Today with casting and resizing, it seems you can get much more precise. I was thinking about using Cerrosafe. Can I get some help and advice on doing that?

Thanks

Greg

Ohh, Boy, you are deep in it now! Yes, first get a mike, the threads on your caliper are not precise enough. A micrometer is the tool you will use to measure necks, boolits, and chamber casts. Learn to use one if you don't know how now. Actually, you can search for a pound cast here on the site and get the same measurement that cerrosafe will give you cheaper, just use pure lead. Alloyed lead will change on you, pure won't. Alloyed lead will spring back, and you will not know how much. Cerrosafe has the advantage of a known expansion rate, you need the chart that comes with it.

[Echo]

I was wondering if belling the case could have something to do with it. How far down do you need to go?

You can do it with a pair of needle-nose pliers. Stick them (closed!) in the mouth of the case and give a couple of twirls - it doesn't take much force, but use as much as you find necessary to slightly bell the mouth.

[9.3X62AL]

Roger Dat is right on. The inside diameter of the neck is a critical dimension. It is not always optimal to only flair the case mouth. Correct neck tension is best when the ID is 1-2 thousandths less than the bullet diameter.

The expander ball that came with the die set is likely too narrow because it is typically designed for jacketed bullets of nominal diameter. If it is less than 2 thousandths of an inch smaller than bullet diameter, an alternate method of setting the interior diameter of the neck is useful.

As stated earlier, the NOE M style expander plugs are a good solution. A little more about them: they are catalogued showing two dimensions each, and that can be confusing. The larger dimension is the amount of flair that will be put on the case mouth. It should be slightly larger than the bullet. The smaller diameter sizes the interior diameter of the neck. Choose and expander plug where the bullet diameter is in between the two values. You already have the Lee die en route, so that's perfect. The NOE expanders work with the Lee Universal expander die in place of the included Lee case mouth expanders.

What to expect: the M expander will make a little cup around the case mouth (ever so slightly) so that the bullet starts easy, and it will sit straight when it is placed on the case for seating. Secondly, as the bullet is seated, it will be forced into a neck that is a hair smaller than bullet diameter. That will give the correct neck tension without being so tight that it swages the bullet diameter or buckles the case mouth. Should take care of the problems mentioned so far.

This is The Next Step, after getting the flaring regimen squared away. The micrometer is truly the bullet caster's polygraph. I fully agree with ALL of the info in this post.

[GregLaROCHE]

Ohh, Boy, you are deep in it now! Yes, first get a mike, the threads on your caliper are not precise enough. A micrometer is the tool you will use to measure necks, boolits, and chamber casts. Learn to use one if you don't know how now. Actually, you can search for a pound cast here on the site and get the same measurement that cerrosafe will give you cheaper, just use pure lead. Alloyed lead will change on you, pure won't. Alloyed lead will spring back, and you will not know how much. Cerrosafe has the advantage of a known expansion rate, you need the chart that comes with it.

Hi,

Just got a Lee expander in the mail today. I have a mike and used it a number of times before.

That’s really interesting about making the cast with lead. I had wondered about it myself, but so far haven’t heard anyone talk about it. I’m going to start searching the forum right now.

Thanks for the info.

Greg

[nekshot]

yup, I have some m dies and the lee unit but as I get older and lazy I just grab the needle nose pliers. Much faster and that is good for me!