CVA Double Rifle and Shotgun

[Toolmaker TN]

Getting back into black powder again. Have been away from it for around 25 years or so. Picked up a nice pair of CVA guns. Kind of a matched set. One is a 50cal. Express double rifle. The other is a CVA double shotgun. The shotgun appears to be unfired, the rifle looks to have been fired very little.
Does anyone have experience with either of these? Any advice would be much appreciated.
I'm looking at using RB in the rifle, with either real BP, or possibly Pyrodex. Am fairly well set up for shooting a 50, still have my 50 T/C Renagade, with all the loading stuff for it. It was the only ML I kept when I cleaned house.
The shotgun will be used for lead shot for grouse, some clays, and would like to use for ducks as well. Not sure about using steel in it, but would like to be able to figure out a duck load.

[GEOMETRIC]

I don't have any experience with CVA specifically but I do have a Pedersoli .58 cal. SXS & a 10 ga. DGW SXS, which is actually an older Pedersoli 11 ga. but 10 ga. plastic wads will fit the bore. I am very pleased with both. I have had the shotgun since the 70s & it has Briley choke tubes in it. Don't ask me why but the shotgun fits me better than any gun I have ever shot. Everything I point it at consistently winds up dead! I have never shot steel in anything but I do shoot bismuth, Hevi-Shot, ITM & several of the tungsten composite non toxic numbers. With anything approaching or greater than the hardness of your barrel, it is imperative that the shot does not contact the bore. I got a real deal on 20 lbs. of HS & am experimenting with developing a load with a wad that will work in the muzzle loader & still not take all day to load. The Federal Flite Control wad has been suggested but I see other possibilities.

[Toolmaker TN]

Thanks for the info. I'm a little leery about using steel as well, but have had to use it in modern guns sine the lead shot ban was enacted. Before that, I shot a 20ga with #6 lead for ducks over decoys. Dropped them like a brick if I did what I was supposed to do. Steel shot put an end to shooting a 20 for me. Have never used any of the newer non-toxics, but have been considering it. If they just weren't so blasted expensive. Might be the way to go though, as I have a Wm. Moore 13ga percussion double as well, and I'm def not going to run steel through 150+ year old Damascus barrels, wad or not....
Do you shoot your gun with lead? Traditional OP/OS wads, or shot cups? I'm leaning towards OP/OS for grouse and clays, but the one thing I keep seeing over and over is that shot cups may be needed to increase velocity for hunting loads, to keep patterns from blowing out.

[GEOMETRIC]

Yes, the designer non toxics are expensive but I watch for deals & sales. Some are even making their own bismuth shot. The good news is they are more effective with less shot. Some folks are reporting good results with 20 ga. steel shooting ducks over decoys but forget it in the more demanding situations. Is your gun choked? I hear the Federal flite control wad can be bought as a "break down" component but I believe it is only made in 12 ga.. Sam Fadala wrote of experimenting with unslit steel shot wads in his, "Black Powder Loading Manual" with lead shot. That is reported to work if the wad doesn't tumble. Some folks use a tail or air brake attached to the back of the wad to keep it from tumbling & to cause the shot to cleanly separate from the wad. I haven't tried that but plan to do so.
I have used & still use loads with just card wads, loads with card & fiber wads, plastic wads & about every conceivable combination of the above. I have only used lead to date in the muzzle loader. I would expect tungsten alloys to pattern tighter than lead.
Every gun is an individual. You have to shoot it with various combinations to see what it likes & what works. You don't need high velocity with lead & even less so with higher density non toxics. Barrel damage is associated with high velocity, pellet size & pellet hardness.

[Toolmaker TN]

The gun is cyl bored, so it's going to be either wads or shot cups. I'll have to do some searching for sales on designer non toxics. I know steel with the right wad would work, but still hesitate. Biggest cause is that with steel velocity is the key. The newer steel loads are more effective, and they all have the same thing in common. Big fps numbers. Not going to happen safely with BP. I'm going to get a bunch of cards and wads, a few shot cups, 1-1/2Fg and 2Fg, and play with lead first. Going to be interesting, part of the fun too.
Trying to get my Moore up and running as well. Will be neat to compare a modern BP double with an 1850's original.
Hopefully will get to go out and shoot the double rifle this weekend. Still have all the stuff for my Renegade, so it's going to be PRB to start with. Maybe try some conicals later on

[DIRT Farmer]

Start playing with loads in both guns. You might be suprised at the patterns you can get from a cylinder bore. I have played with plastic wads at times, I can get better and denser patterns with a combo of cards and fiber. It just takes time to go through them. For water foul I use bismuth,yes its expensive but I get two to three years from a jug. I use several origonils and the modern Pedersolis, plus the trade guns. The first banded goose I killed was with a Brown Bess flint musket, 1 1/8 oz bismuth #5 and 80 grains of ffg. Dropped like a rock. We had a one goose limit that year, why not add something to the day

[GEOMETRIC]

Like DIRT Farmer says, "start playing with loads------". One quote I keep repeating from H.P. White Laboratories is, "One good test is worth a thousand expert opinions". The plastic wad approach could very well work for you but there are other options if you don't mind spending a little money. First, you could have a gunsmith (or if you know how to work with metal, do it yourself) jug choke the barrels. My DGW 10 ga. has a fixed modified choke in the left barrel & I had Briley install a choke tube in the right barrel. I would try the easy way first. If that doesn't work, you can always go to plan "B".
Any time you shoot anything harder than your barrel, you take some risk but we have been banging away at ducks with steel for years now with little reported damage. CIP (European) proof has at least two levels of proof which are tied to velocity, pellet size & degree of choke. Velocity has proven to be the best way to increase the effectiveness of steel but you can also increase pellet size. Going through the choke is where the damage usually occurs but you don't have that problem. Have you read V.M. Starr's little book? You can get it on line free.

[toot]

i have a CVA DBL. hammer, muzzle loader that i bought as a kit in the late 60,s for $58.00. they are now over $600.00. what i shoot in it is a .600. DIA. patched RB. yes i know it is a 12 gauge, but with 80 grs of 1 FG. or 2 FG. behind it, it hit,s POI. at 50 yds, both balls about 1 inch a part. if i bare ball a .720 DIA. RB. with the same load, same point of impact. not bad for an old CVA, that every body used to puke on when you told them you had one!.

[Toolmaker TN]

Like DIRT Farmer says, "start playing with loads------". One quote I keep repeating from H.P. White Laboratories is, "One good test is worth a thousand expert opinions". The plastic wad approach could very well work for you but there are other options if you don't mind spending a little money. First, you could have a gunsmith (or if you know how to work with metal, do it yourself) jug choke the barrels. My DGW 10 ga. has a fixed modified choke in the left barrel & I had Briley install a choke tube in the right barrel. I would try the easy way first. If that doesn't work, you can always go to plan "B".
Any time you shoot anything harder than your barrel, you take some risk but we have been banging away at ducks with steel for years now with little reported damage. CIP (European) proof has at least two levels of proof which are tied to velocity, pellet size & degree of choke. Velocity has proven to be the best way to increase the effectiveness of steel but you can also increase pellet size. Going through the choke is where the damage usually occurs but you don't have that problem. Have you read V.M. Starr's little book? You can get it on line free.

That's very true, testing beats theory every time. I had thought about doing a jug choke, but I'm not convinced cyl bore is as much of handicap as some people would have us think. It worked in all those old guns for how many hundred years? I've never shot much of anything other than skeet or I/C in modern shotguns. If I missed it probably wasn't because of the choke lol.
I could and prob would do the choke work myself, if it came to that.
I do have V.M. Starr's book. Very informative. I think his loads might be a little hot even in modern guns, much less originals, but I'm still on the low end of the learning curve, so my opinion may not prove out to be true.

[Toolmaker TN]

i have a CVA DBL. hammer, muzzle loader that i bought as a kit in the late 60,s for $58.00. they are now over $600.00. what i shoot in it is a .600. DIA. patched RB. yes i know it is a 12 gauge, but with 80 grs of 1 FG. or 2 FG. behind it, it hit,s POI. at 50 yds, both balls about 1 inch a part. if i bare ball a .720 DIA. RB. with the same load, same point of impact. not bad for an old CVA, that every body used to puke on when you told them you had one!.

Yes, paid more than I should have I guess. Got it for $450. But it's unfired, near as I can tell.
Have thought of the PRB option, going to try it I think. Always good to have options. That's good shooting with any double!!
Nothing wrong with the CVA guns. They and T/C used to be about the only game in town, got a lot of people shooting BP again.

[Toolmaker TN]

Biggest problem I'm having is finding BP. Have searched everywhere locally, none stocked anywhere. I have a couple cans of GOEX 3F left over, but that's not going to work. I'm going to have to go with Pyrodex RS for now I guess. Going to have to order BP.

[Toolmaker TN]

If you shoot originals you should find this interesting. Moore 13ga.
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213583

[Toolmaker TN]

Start playing with loads in both guns. You might be suprised at the patterns you can get from a cylinder bore. I have played with plastic wads at times, I can get better and denser patterns with a combo of cards and fiber. It just takes time to go through them. For water foul I use bismuth,yes its expensive but I get two to three years from a jug. I use several origonils and the modern Pedersolis, plus the trade guns. The first banded goose I killed was with a Brown Bess flint musket, 1 1/8 oz bismuth #5 and 80 grains of ffg. Dropped like a rock. We had a one goose limit that year, why not add something to the day

I don't think the cyl bore will be all that much of a handicap. It worked for how many years? I'm getting some cards and wads now, going to try them first. For ducks, I'm looking at going to the non toxics, just not going to fool with steel I don't think. I like the sound of bismuth. That's cool about the Brown Bess. One of the next things on my list is going to be a flint fowler. I'm working on getting my original 13ga percussion double up and going too. Going to take a little work, but it'll be worth it. Have to fix one of the locks, make a new part and a new spring.

[toot]

what size wads / cards does a 13 bore take?

[Toolmaker TN]

what size wads / cards does a 13 bore take?

It takes wads around .720, the bores on mine measure .710-.712

[Newtire]

Hi toolmaker. If you can find any Alliant Black MZ, give it a try. I used it a couple seasons back to shoot doves and it performed great. Using 11 gauge and 12 Gauge original Whitney style (N.R. Davis=maker) guns, 1 oz and 1-1\8 oz. #7's, managed 7 out of a 10 bird limit. I shoot this stuff all the time and no troubles igniting it, almost no fouling and easy cleanup. I read some bad press on the stuff but think that gun writer must have needed to get an article out and never really shot the stuff. Try it, you'll like it. Looks like hell but works great.

[slumlord44]

I have had a CVA double rifle since the late '80's. Picked up the shotgun version several years back. Haven't shot the shotgun yet so can't help you with it. Been using the rifle for deer here in Illinois ever since I bought it. Tried Buffalo bullits when I first bought it. It shot more like patterns than groups. Barrels didn't shoot to samd point of aim. Tried round balls. Worked great. It will keep both barrels in an 8"circle at 100 yards which is good enough where I hunt deer here in Illinois. Killed a lot of deer with it over the years. The second shot is nice to have. The .50 round ball works fine if I do my part. I have used black powder, pyrodex, and Tripple seven with similar accuracy and knock down power. Use Tripple seven almost exclusively now just because it is more forgiving when it comes to cleaning. Can wait til the next day to clean if necessary with no problems. Still best to clean right after shooting though. Windex with vinager is my uisual cleaner.

[Toolmaker TN]

Hi toolmaker. If you can find any Alliant Black MZ, give it a try. I used it a couple seasons back to shoot doves and it performed great. Using 11 gauge and 12 Gauge original Whitney style (N.R. Davis=maker) guns, 1 oz and 1-1\8 oz. #7's, managed 7 out of a 10 bird limit. I shoot this stuff all the time and no troubles igniting it, almost no fouling and easy cleanup. I read some bad press on the stuff but think that gun writer must have needed to get an article out and never really shot the stuff. Try it, you'll like it. Looks like hell but works great.

Thanks for the tip. I actually saw some at Sportsman's Warehouse last weekend, might have to pick some up and give it a try. Been too busy lately to have done much of anything in the way of personal projects.
I agree on the gun writer stuff. I'm pretty sure some of them use the things they review very little, or not at all. I've tried too much stuff that received glowing reviews, only to find out it was absolute ****.

[Toolmaker TN]

I have had a CVA double rifle since the late '80's. Picked up the shotgun version several years back. Haven't shot the shotgun yet so can't help you with it. Been using the rifle for deer here in Illinois ever since I bought it. Tried Buffalo bullits when I first bought it. It shot more like patterns than groups. Barrels didn't shoot to samd point of aim. Tried round balls. Worked great. It will keep both barrels in an 8"circle at 100 yards which is good enough where I hunt deer here in Illinois. Killed a lot of deer with it over the years. The second shot is nice to have. The .50 round ball works fine if I do my part. I have used black powder, pyrodex, and Tripple seven with similar accuracy and knock down power. Use Tripple seven almost exclusively now just because it is more forgiving when it comes to cleaning. Can wait til the next day to clean if necessary with no problems. Still best to clean right after shooting though. Windex with vinager is my uisual cleaner.

Awesome, thank you very much. That was kinda what I was hoping to hear. I've always been a round ball fan, so that's very encouraging. Have Pyrodex now, along with everything else I should need to get rolling. Still have my shooting kit left over from my old BP days. Have my .50 Renegade as well, only muzzle loader I kept. Would be great if they would use the same load, but not holding out much for that.
8" circle with both barrels would be more than good for anything I would need to do here in the mountains of TN or NC. And it's a double rifle, not a target rifle anyway.
Yes, I always cleaned after shooting. Loaned out a .50 once. When I got it back, bore was solid rust, down to about .25 cal. Guy was told by somebody that because he was shooting Pyrodex, he didn't have to clean it at all....
I've been hearing about the Windex, sounds like I might have to try that as well.
Now all I need is time to get out and test the guns. Have been too busy with work to do any projects for awhile now. One of my projects for the CVA double rifle is to make a tang aperture sight for it. Been in the works since I bought the rifle. Also going to make a wad punch, along with several other accessories.
Sad part is I've got a shop with numerous lathes and mills, drill presses, heat treating, surface grinders, plasma cutter, 2 CNC lathes, 2 CNC mills, wire EDM, etc.... and don't have the time to do anything for myself..... kinda frustrating sometimes.

[missionary5155]

Good evening Crows make a fine way to get in practice for geese or ducks. We use a simple Outers crow call. Pictured are two young birds that came by looking for who was "calling". Looking forward to thinning the east ILLinois crow population this summer with #5 lead.
The double was made with .62 heavy Belgium barrels and will shoot round ball also.
The Trade rifle is a .60 that goes hunting for whatever game is in season minus the regulated waterfowl.
Mike in Peru

217417

[Toolmaker TN]

Good evening Crows make a fine way to get in practice for geese or ducks. We use a simple Outers crow call. Pictured are two young birds that came by looking for who was "calling". Looking forward to thinning the east ILLinois crow population this summer with #5 lead.
The double was made with .62 heavy Belgium barrels and will shoot round ball also.
The Trade rifle is a .60 that goes hunting for whatever game is in season minus the regulated waterfowl.
Mike in Peru

217417

Wow, nice pair of flintlocks!!
A trade gun in .60-.62 has been on my list for awhile now. Looking at a Fusil de Chasse. Would fit in perfectly with my French Canadian roots.
Maybe someday converting a percussion double to flint would be an awesome project as well. Around 35 years ago,I had the opportunity to shoot a round of trap with an original flint double, in unbelievably pristine condition. Gave a whole new meaning to follow through....
Thank you for the idea. Haven't hunted crows in I can't remember how long. Was a lot of fun though, and would be great practice for pass shooting ducks. Might have to do that this year.

[missionary5155]

Add your flinter into the crows and you will be hooked ! Some days there are more crows coming in than I can keep up with. The double so far has not taken a double due to shooter error. But it will happen.

[Toolmaker TN]

Will have to add a few crow shoots to the list this year for sure.

[bikerbeans]

I bought a used cva 50 dbl 25 years ago. Gun has a slow twist and is accurate just with patched round balls. If you have problems with the function of the left lock it is probably the sear. The left sear on mine wasn't properly heat treated and if bent at the tip. No luck find a new one.

BB

[donkee]

A cylinder bore shotgun is pretty versatile. Bird shot, buck shot, patched round ball all work great in them. Experiment with powder and shot combinations to tighten or loosen patterns. Typically a square load is good but if you use more shot than powder it will tighten patterns while more powder than shot will open up the patterns. If you need black powder you can order it online and the more you buy the cheaper it is.

I don't remember where I heard this but figured it was good enough info to write it down...

"Less powder, more lead, shoots far, kills dead. More powder, less lead, kicks hard, wide spread."

[Toolmaker TN]

I bought a used cva 50 dbl 25 years ago. Gun has a slow twist and is accurate just with patched round balls. If you have problems with the function of the left lock it is probably the sear. The left sear on mine wasn't properly heat treated and if bent at the tip. No luck find a new one.

BB

Thank you, good to know. Have pulled the locks out to clean/lube, everything seems ok. Didn't check the hardness, but maybe not a bad idea to do that. Could save a lot of trouble.

[Toolmaker TN]

I bought a used cva 50 dbl 25 years ago. Gun has a slow twist and is accurate just with patched round balls. If you have problems with the function of the left lock it is probably the sear. The left sear on mine wasn't properly heat treated and if bent at the tip. No luck find a new one.

BB

Yes, that was one of the attractions to the BP smoothbore, versatility. Going to try bird shot first. Buck shot and non toxic are on the list. PRB is very interesting, am getting ready to order a mold.

Have found a couple places to order BP. Prices don't seem too bad if you order a decent quantity.

Going to go with square loads with traditional wads first, I expect it will work as well as it always has. Might go with shot cups with bird shot. With non toxic shot cups are going to be a must.

[Toolmaker TN]

Finally have everything together to shoot both. Now all I need is the time to go out and shoot them, or a day when it isn't raining.
Still working on making a wad punch for the 12ga., and am designing a tang sight for the rifle.

Too many projects, and too little time....

[Edward]

Yes, paid more than I should have I guess. Got it for $450. But it's unfired, near as I can tell.
Have thought of the PRB option, going to try it I think. Always good to have options. That's good shooting with any double!!
Nothing wrong with the CVA guns. They and T/C used to be about the only game in town, got a lot of people shooting BP again.

Try powder Inc/ BACO /TOW for good prices TYD /Ed

[Edward]

Yes, that was one of the attractions to the BP smoothbore, versatility. Going to try bird shot first. Buck shot and non toxic are on the list. PRB is very interesting, am getting ready to order a mold.

Have found a couple places to order BP. Prices don't seem too bad if you order a decent quantity.

Going to go with square loads with traditional wads first, I expect it will work as well as it always has. Might go with shot cups with bird shot. With non toxic shot cups are going to be a must. Lee makes great RB molds !

[Toolmaker TN]

Try powder Inc/ BACO /TOW for good prices TYD /Ed

Thank you for the tip. Going to shoot Pyrodex right now, but have a couple flintlocks on the list next. So will have to be getting some of the real stuff.

[Toolmaker TN]

Lee makes great RB molds !

Yes, they make good molds in general. The newer ones seem to be much higher quality than the previous ones.

[Toolmaker TN]

Finally got a chance to shoot the rifle this past weekend. Very promising so far. Shot Pyrodex RS, .490 RB, .010 patch with balistol/water lube. VERY tight fit in bores. Shot very well out to 50 yards, furthest I got to shoot it that trip. All pairs held less than 2", with 50-80 grain charges, with some pairs having both holes touching. Did find one issue, when barrels were crowned there was a pretty good sized burr that's in bores. Need to clean that up, and finish tang sight and install. Then take it out to maybe 100 yrds and try some heavier charges. Couldn't be happier so far though.
Shotgun ranges were covered up with league shoots going on, so shotgun will have to wait for another day.....

[Abert Rim]

It has been more than a year, but have you had any more range experience with the CVA.50 double? I was under the impression that the twist in these barrels was 1:48, the same as the T/C .50s. Thinking there must be a conical out there that might shoot -- maybe even T/C's Maxiball.