Accurate 12ga muzzle loader slug load?

[faustus]

I am thinking about hunting my black-powder season for the first time this year ... for deer.

Where I hunt the woods are thick and shots are mostly within 50 meters/yards .... maybe out to 70. I like to to hunt with a SxS shotgun .... one barrel loaded with buckshot and the other with a foster slug.

And sometimes I feel like being the opportunistic hunter/stalker ... one barrel loaded with bird shot and the other with a slug ... and when a grouse or hare crosses my way .... I might take it with me.

Now Pedersoli makes several SxS muzzle loader shotguns .... and I am thinking about getting one.

But here my question:

Has anybody experience with a good/accurate 12ga muzzle-loader slug or round ball load?

If yes, with what components was it loaded and what did the load column look like?
And what kind of accuracy did you get with it?

Thanks,
Faustus

[longbow]

No and no!

I used to have (and wish I'd kept it) a Pedersoli side by 12 ga. muzzleloader back in the 70's. It was a very nice gun.

Chokes were I/C and modified IIRC but both barrels choked. I tried a 0.690" RB with poor success, though having said that I did not patch it because of the chokes and did not want to go larger because of the chokes. What I didn't try and should have was donut wads to keep the ball centered in the bore. That just might have done it. That or use a smaller ball in a shotcup for same effect.

In my case, I took that gun hunting with a group from my black powder club. Everyone else had rifles and thought I was a little odd hunting with a shotgun. However, I had 00 buck in one side and birdshot in the other for grouse if I didn't see deer. Well, I didn't see grouse so decided to dump the birdshot load and put a 0.690" RB in that barrel.

Shortly after I saw a spike buck in thick brush. I struggled through the brush and I guess he wondered what was making so much noise because he came and watched me from about 25 yards outside the brush patch. When I spotted him again I cocked the barrel with the round ball and at the same time he turned and ran away from me. I figured that big ball would go right through him from behind so took the shot. It missed (I did say accuracy was poor but this was a close shot) and must have hit a tree in front of him as he turned 180 and came right back at me then turned to my left. Just like trap shooting, I raised the gun as I cocked the barrel with 00 buck in it, the butt hit my shoulder and I followed through as he ran and pulled the trigger. The buck stumbled but ran some more so I reloaded then went after him. He made it about 100 yards then dropped.

When I butchered him I found 9 of the 12 00 buck pellets I'd loaded. His lungs were perforated, his heart perforated, left shoulder smashed and left front leg broken by a pellet. I was surprised he made it as far as he did. I was quite impressed with the damage that 00 buck did though. I decided I didn't need a round ball load.

So, not a story about fine accuracy with round ball or slug. Sorry.

My bet is a donut wad with a ball that fits through your chokes should do reasonably well. I'd put the donut wad on top of a 1/2" hard card wad column to give it some length so it doesn't tip in the bore.

Alternately if you can get a shotcup in the bores then 0.678" RB or Lee Drive Key slug should fit but might be tight through the chokes. ).662" RB should go easily. If you use a plastic shotcup I'd put a card wad or COW between powder and shotcup to avoid plastic lining your bore. BP with plastic shotcups in a cartridge gun resulted in considerable plastic lining my bore. For one or two shots hunting probably not an issue.

Depending on your chokes, the Lyman Foster slug might fit and if not a custom sizer would make it fit. That is one use the Lyman Foster may be good for. Mine cast at 0.705" so too big for shotcup but way too small for 0.729" bore. If it fits through your chokes though it should swell to fill the bores then squeeze down through the choke as they are designed to do. Me. I'd shorten the hollow base pin a bit to put more lead in that thin nose and more weight in the nose. If it fits or you can make it fit then that should be a good slug.

My 2 cents... well, more like 50 cents worth of words I guess.

Good luck and keep us posted on how this goes.

Longbow

[faustus]

Thanks Longbow ..... nice story. I love those stories .... !!!!

Right now I am undecided between two Pedersoli models:

Pedersoli Side by Side Shotgun Classic Standard - 12ga
https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/scheda-prodotto.asp/l_en/idpr_129/rifles-muzzle-loading-side-by-side-shotguns-side-by-side-shotgun-classic-standard.html

and which has CYL./MOD. chokes .... but no rear sight.
From experience I know that I would need a rear sight ... I guess a gunsmith could install me one.

Pedersoli Side by Side Shotgun Slug - 12ga
https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/scheda-prodotto.asp/l_en/idpr_135/rifles-muzzle-loading-side-by-side-shotguns-side-by-side-shotgun-slug.html

and which has CYL./CYL. chokes .... smothbore barrels .... and a rear sight.

I thought a 0.735" or 0.715" patched round ball in one of the barrels with CYL. choke (i.e. no choke) should give me minute of deer accuracy out to 50 meters.

But then maybe somebody has figured out how to load a 12ga Foster slug or Brenneke and get even better accuracy ... ????

[bikerbeans]

I would go with an un-choked shotgun if you plan to shoot slugs, because the slug will need to pass through the choke when loaded and would probably be too undersized to stay on the powder.

BB

[webfoot10]

Faustus: I have one of the Pedersoli doubles. I use 80 grs ffg blackpowder, 1 card wad and 1 filler
wad in the modified barrel, then a lyman foster 12 ga slug patched with a lubed cotton patch.
The slug is under sized for the bore, the patch will take up the space between the barrel wall
and the slug. The slug will pass through the modified choke fine. In my gun I can keep the
slug in a 4in pie plate at 35 yds. Good enough for brush hunting. The cylinder bored barrel
will only do 2ft patterns, better use for buckshot. You will have to experiment to see what works
for you.
webfoot

[longbow]

Mine looked like the Pedersoli Classic but I believe both barrels were choked.

I like what webfoot10 says about the Lyman Foster.

I would have figured a soft lead Foster would bump up to fill the bore with BP. Mine did over smokeless loads in my cartridge gun. That was one of the problems... they were so undersize that when they bumped up they tended to do so unevenly probably because they were tipped or off center or tipped and off center in the bore when they bumped up.

I would figure patching the undersize slug to fit the cylinder bore barrel would work though. I did try heavy paper patching mine in my cartridge gun and that did improve accuracy but I got fliers I attributed to patching being damaged opening crimps. That wouldn't be an issue for muzzleloader.

I'd be inclined to try the 0.690" RB and donut wad or inverted gas seal to keep it centered. That could work well and some say it does work well in cartridge guns. You would need an over the ball wad to keep it in place though especially if you were loading and shooting both barrels. A ball or slug tightly patched would definitely be better that way but getting it past a choke... well that's the trick. A couple of nitro card wads over a slug or ball should hold it in place.

A 0.735" ball will be too large but 0.715" could work patched depending on bore diameter and being in cylinder bore. A naked ball is not a good choice in my experience at least if not on a donut wad or other centering device. A sized 0.735" ball may work well and I have read of musket shooters sizing balls to suit their bores so the ball winds up with a small "belt" around it. Sizing that way has to make the ball slightly undersize and fouling could be a problem.

Lots of things to think about!

I have moulds for 0.662", 0.678", 0.690", 0.715" and 0.735" RB's and a Lyman Foster slug mould if you want to try one or more. PM me if you want some.

Longbow

[faustus]

1.) Thanks for the offer Longbow. Much appreciated. You wouldn't have one or two 0.715" round ball laying around somewhere. I would love to see how and if they fit.

2.) Pedersoli lists a recommended load (https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/uploads/supporto/9SUGGESTED%20BLACK%20POWDER%20LOADS.pdf) for the slug gun with a .695" round ball. Anybody know who makes a mould for .695" round balls?

Thanks,
Faustus

[longbow]

1.) If I don't have any 0.715" balls cast I can cast some. I'll look later. I gave a bunch of balls to another guy wanting to try them. IIRC he got the last of my 0.690" RB's but I don't remember if I had any 0.715" RB's left. Anyway, I got propane and a pot with lead in it so can cast some easily enough. PM me your address and I'll get some balls off to you if you want.

2.) If no-one (Pedersoli?) has a 0.695" ball mould try Jeff Tanner in the UK. I have heard nothing but good reports on his moulds and prices, and he will make what you want.

Jeff Tanner:

http://www.jt-bullet-moulds.co.uk/moulds.html

Well, a quick search says "NO!" Pedersoli does not make or sell a 0.695" ball mould. Seems odd since that is what they recommend.

Hmmmm... just looking at ball to bore diameter and if the gun has typical 12 ga. bore at about 0.729" then a 0.715" ball does not leave much room for a patch, like maybe 0.008" which is thin. The 0.695" ball would leave room for at least 0.012" patch and maybe a bit more as the cloth will compress a bit.

Alternately, felt donut wads would let you shoot pretty much whatever ball size fit the bore.

You might get some ideas here:

http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/SmoothboreLoads.html

Longbow

[longbow]

Actually you might be better off with a thicker patch on 0.690" RB and Lee makes 0.690" RB moulds so inexpensive to buy and try.

[mehavey]

What you've got in CYL/CYL is a slightly under-bore/0.730" side-by-side Brown Bess.
Load it that way with heavy denim (0.030"+) straight Patched .690 RB.
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=551324

If you can find 0.715" roundball, it would be (even more) perfect with standard 0.018" pillow-ticking

[faustus]

What you've got in CYL/CYL is a slightly under-bore/0.730" side-by-side Brown Bess.
Load it that way with heavy denim (0.030"+) straight Patched .690 RB.
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=551324

If you can find 0.715" roundball, it would be (even more) perfect with standard 0.018" pillow-ticking

Mehavey, our link was very informative ... and it confirms what I was thinking. Thanks for chiming in.

[faustus]

So, I pulled the trigger on a Pedersoli SxS Slug muzzleloader in 12ga.
The gun has no chokes and is cylinder bore for both barrels. But it has a fixed, foldable rear sight. And it arrived today .... :D

214301

For those that are interested, here more images:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ml2gk2ftnv7asjr/AADyHqG_xu-Y9I72BOiMF1Hya?dl=0

This is a very plain looking gun, but fit and finish is very good for what I am used to.

I can’t wait to shoot it and see what it can do. I will be testing different round ball loads and shot loads in the spring and once the snow is gone …. and I will report back here with my findings.

I don't know yet if .715" round balls will fit. I have a mold for .690" round balls, and if the .715" balls are too tight, I might order a custom mold somewhere around .695" to .705" ...

So, stay tuned …. :)

Faustus

[RMc]

Using a heavy barrel TC New Englander* cylinder bore, with just the bead front sight, I found it quite easy to maintain 3.5" to 4" groups at 40 yards. The load was a .690 lead/tin alloy ball, patched with pillow ticking, seated over a .125" card and .50" fiber wad with a charge of 100 grains Goex FFg. The same load with just a patched ball barely held 8 inch groups.
That shotgun wanted to be loaded like a shotgun!

*Late production New Englander shotguns were made with heavier barrels than early production models.

[faustus]

...

That shotgun wanted to be loaded like a shotgun!

...


Thanks RMC for sharing your experience. I have come across other report that would indicate the same .... that accuracy increases with .50" fiber wads.

I will definitely try loading the round balls with fiber wads underneath .... hey maybe even with two .50" fiber wads and see what the result will be ....

[725]

Faustus -- If you end up looking for a custom RB mold, I highly recommend Jeff Tanner molds. He has cut a couple for me and they are spot on at the size I called for. I use a RB in my modern, no choke, rifled shotgun and get surprisingly good accuracy. Good luck in your quest and keep us in the loop.

[longbow]

faustus:

Sorry, I got distracted with other things and have not packed up the 0.715" RB's yet.

I'll have them on their way shortly so you can try them out.

Longbow

[faustus]

faustus:

Sorry, I got distracted with other things and have not packed up the 0.715" RB's yet.

I'll have them on their way shortly so you can try them out.

Longbow

Longbow,

much appreciated .... but can you hold off on sending those round balls. I believe they will not fit. A friend lend me some digital calipers ... and here the readings for the muzzle of that gun:

Left barrel: .724"
Right barrel: .715"

So, with .715 round balls there is probably no more room for a patch ... :-(
(I have this feeling that the right barrel will be my slug/round ball barrel)

Longbow, you mentioned that the newer Lyman .715 molds cast undersized round balls ... Do you know by how much?

Otherwise I am thinking about ordering a .705" or .710" mold from Jeff Tanner ... I am hoping that that would work with a .10 patch.

Anybody any input? With the readings above, what size ball with what patch thickness should work well out of that gun?

Keep in mind that I am totally new to muzzle loading ....

Thanks,
Faustus

[longbow]

I'd think you'd want something like 0.010" to 0.018" patch. There's some compression going to happen and more with a thicker patch. But if you have 0.715" bore then you'd want the ball around 0.695" I think.

That's close enough to 0.690" to try if you want me to send some 0.690" RB's instead of 0.715". let me know.

No, my Lyman RB moulds all cast large by about 0.002"/0.003". My comment was that I wish all Lyman moulds cast that large. My last one cast small by about 0.002" with WW's.

I am surprised there is that much difference between bores for cylinder bore barrels. You should slug and check again to be sure. I'd expect those bores to be within a thou or two whether they are 0.724" or 0.715" but within a thou or two of each other.

You should take a cleaning rod with a jag or brush on it and push down past the muzzles to see if it gets any looser as it goes... if so there are chokes.

Anyway, 0.690" will fit and may just work patched so suit. Might be a thick patch if the bore(s) are 0.724" or just right if the bore(s) are 0.715". I'm still surprised there is so much difference if you got the measuring right. That is a slug gun so should be close so the same ball/slug can be used in both sides... and that brings up another point... I have a Lyman Foster mould to and it casts at 0.705". it may work like a Minie in that gun. I'd be inclined to fill it with hot melt glue or silicone caulk then load a lubed felt wad under it. The slug should still swell up to fill the bore.

Let me know if you want me to send any 0.690" RB's or Lyman Fosters.

Longbow

[gpidaho]

Following, I have a 12ga. break barrel that is threaded for chokes on the way. I intend to use it as a smooth bore musket for BP loads of buck and also for round ball. I'm currently using a 20ga. Rossi in this manner, I like this shotgun for it's exposed hammer + a safety (what ever that's for) anyway, makes me feel good and double safe (LOL) stuffing it from the front. Gp

[longbow]

Help me here. So you are using a single shot break action shotgun as a muzzleloader?

I used to have an H&R Huntsman .58 that was a converted single shot break action shotgun with rifled barrel and stainless steel breech plug that pushed in. The breech plug had a nipple for #11 percussion caps.

Are you using a primed hull or?

Just curious.

I used to shoot BP in and old Cooey 12 ga. But found BP very hard on plastic hulls.

I have a soft spot for single shot shotguns too... simple and effective!

[gpidaho]

longbow: Right now with the 20ga. I'm using the Short Lane 209 primer conversion that works pretty much like a hull cut off at the brass-plastic line. Load the BP then a stuffable wad (Sheeps wool for now) then the load of buck shot. The Rossi 20ga. has a fixed modified choke so if I want to load round ball from the muzzle that will need opening up. I can load round ball patched conventionally as is. Just getting started with this. Short Lane has videos up on their site. They also sell what they call a Blackout chamber adapter you load somewhat like a brass case to fire BP shot loads. Gp

[longbow]

Interesting! I have not seen those before. I have seen the cartridge adapters and I think there are other manufacturers of those but I have not seen the muzzleloading adapters or their "reloadable cartridge". Not quite sure why you couldn't muzzleload using the cartridge unless it takes a regular primer that has to be punched out?

In any case, the BP adapter is a similar idea to what H&R did back in the 70's with their Huntsman. I used mine a bit but got rid of it as I am a bit too much of a traditionalist. It worked well and was accurate.

A word of warning though. While I am not sure this is fact, I have read that H&R was sued for a death that occurred when a hunter had a hangfire and immediately broke open the gun, then powder went and the breech plug blew back and killed him. I do know that H&R changed their design from O-ring style push in breech plug to thread in breech plug.

I never had any trouble with mine and it shot quite well.

I did find that after a bit of shooting the fouling would build up on the breech face preventing the gun from closing easily so I used a chainsaw file to open a small port on the right side of the barrel to vent the blow back gases out. Call it a Bubba job if you want but it worked just fine and no more problems. The 209 primers may seal better and this may not be an issue but percussion caps on a nipple allow quite a bit of blow back.

You might try using the donut wad idea to center a ball that fits though the choke. That should work with muzzleloader though dropping a loose ball down the barrel and having it center on the hole in the wad might be a bit tricky and you'd need an over the ball wad to hold the ball in place.

The Foster style slugs should work much like a Minie though I haven't read any posts where people have tried it... or I don't remember reading any posts anyway (old brain). A soft Lead Foster slug "slugs up" with smokeless powder so surely it would with BP, then it will squeeze down through the choke. You would need pure or at least very soft lead and lubed wad under.

Longbow

[gpidaho]

longbow: I would be the last to criticize your "Bubba" fix. this whole adventure is sort of a "Bubba" sport. Most likely tinkering with something best left alone and with no solid purpose other than for the fun of it and because I can. "Bubba" or not we're dealing with shotguns in this instance that sell for $120-$160 dollars new. Bud's has the Savage Stevens 12s with threaded choke for just $151 cash. Old retired men need the enjoyment of tinkering to fill the days when it's to cold or windy to go to the range. Best. Gp

[faustus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES59LtA7XE8&t=559s

[faustus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txedePKtMu4


You can get the adapter from here:
https://www.selfrelianceoutfitters.com/collections/muzzle-loader-adapter/products/12-gauge-to-209-muzzle-loader-adapter

[faustus]

...

I am surprised there is that much difference between bores for cylinder bore barrels. You should slug and check again to be sure. I'd expect those bores to be within a thou or two whether they are 0.724" or 0.715" but within a thou or two of each other.

You should take a cleaning rod with a jag or brush on it and push down past the muzzles to see if it gets any looser as it goes... if so there are chokes.

...

Longbow

Ok, I measured again .... here the outcome ..... left .723" and right barrel .715" ...

-----------------------------
Left Barrel
-----------------------------
Vertical:
7230
7215
7215
Horizontal:
7240
7235
7220
-----------------------------
Average left: 7226


-----------------------------
Right Barrel
-----------------------------
Vertical:
7155
7160
7150
Horizontal:
7145
7145
7130
-----------------------------
Average Right: 7148

I also gave the barrels a cleaning and I can't feel a choke. However, passing a very tight patch down both barrels I can feel that the left one is looser .... the patch goes down all the way with less resistance ...

I guess I will see in the spring when I have to load it ... the same diameter round ball should go down the barrel with less force in the left barrel ....

So, either these are manufacturing tolerances or errors .... or there is a slight choke in the right barrel that I can't feel when passing a brush or patch .... ??

Now, I still need to decide what size mold to get ..... hmmmmmmmm ... ???

[gpidaho]

Faustus: Thanks for putting up the videos. That's what I'm up to. The adapters in the second video are available at Short Lane. I've had good service from them, shipping is usually free and fast. I get delivery of their products in just a couple of days. I bought some sheep wool on E-bay and use that instead of the cotton but I don't think that would make much difference. Gp

[faustus]

Gpidaho, I was thinking about going that route (Muzzle Loader Adapter) for hunting muzzle loader season this fall ... but our hunting regs up here don't allow it. That's why I am playing with a real muzzle loader .... oh well ....

[longbow]

Well, again, I am surprised there is so much difference in bore diameters. I would figure the bores would be reamed to final diameter which should put them withing a thou or two of each other. Even if the barrels are made from drawn tubing the inside diameter should be more consistent than 0.008" difference. That's huge in a gun. Shot wouldn't care much but a slug/ball does and this is a slug gun you bought.

I think I'd be contacting Pedersoli for an explanation on that as you should be able to use the same patched round ball or near bore diameter slug in both barrels.

If there is a choke (shouldn't be) then it can be easily reamed out but if the entire bore is 0.008" smaller that's a lot. In my opinion anyway.

All in all the Pedersoli looks like a nice gun and I really liked my old Pedersoli shotgun but that difference in bore diameters in yours is strange. SAAMI spec for 12 ga. bore is 0.725" + 0.020" so 0.725" to 0.745". This may not apply to muzzleloaders though.

You may wind up going with a ball to suit the small bore and use donut wads so it will be centered in both barrels. Alternately I guess you could use a thinner patch in the small bore and thicker patch in the large bore. That should work but you'd have to have two sets of patches/material.

Or back to the Foster slug idea and let it slug up to suit each barrel. They'd have to be soft lead but it should work. Like I said, my Lyman Fosters cast 0.705" so would fit your tight bore easily. Will they shoot well... that I do not know! I have not gotten them to shoot well from my cartridge guns.

For round ball, I'd go with the Lee 0.690" to try it out. They are inexpensive moulds and the new style Lee moulds are quite nice... or mine are anyway. Donut wads were available from BPI I think and/or Precision Reloading. They were felt wads with a hole in the center. Easy enough to make at home though. Tommygirl posted a thread on her home made jig for drilling hard card wads to make donut wads. Pretty easy.

Longbow

[faustus]

Thanks longbow ...

1.) I contacted Perdersoli about the difference between .723" and .715". I will see what they will reply.

2.) I ordered two molds from Jeff Tanner. One .715" and the other .705" .... That should give me lots of possible combinations to try in the left or right barrel and with different patch sizes ... :)

So stay tuned ....

Faustus

p.s.: One of the most accurate Foster slugs I ever tried is the Federal TruBall with the round polymer ball in the middle. I am thinking about cutting up 3 - 5 shells and shooting those TruBall slugs out of the .723" barrel ... just as an experiment. The calipers give me a reading of around .740" to .760" for those Fosters. I might file them down a bit and load them with a patch ... :D

[longbow]

Yes, I'll be curious as to what Pedersoli says.

Might be easier to paper patch a Lyman Foster up to bore diameter from 0.705". Different thickness of paper or more or less wraps would do it for both bores.

While I haven't tried the Federal Tru-Ball slugs, the best factory slugs I've shot so far were the old Federal Fosters... pre-Tru-Ball. If I could get accuracy like that from my home loaded slugs I'd be happy!

I like the idea of a Brenneke style slug for muzzleloader (and cartridge gun) but you'd never get one of those down a 0.715" bore even if they were available. They'd have to be a slip fit to work.

Good luck with Pedersoli. It would be nice if they sent you new barrels that match.

Longbow

[faustus]

Ok, I got a reply from Pedersoli ... here is what their customer service is saying:

"The tolerances are of ,005

The problem is to measure the bore correctly.
However from .725 and .720" we are within the tolerances."

[longbow]

Okay but your small bore is 0.715" which is another 0.005" smaller. That is well outside their tolerance.

You should slug the bores then check with a micrometer. That will give you a better reading... just to be sure.

[faustus]

Longbow, yes, with what I got there from Pedersoli my right barrel is out of tolerances.
I am pretty sure about my measurements ... I measured 10 or 20 times ... and none of the readings reaches .720" ... :)

However, before taking any actions about this, I want to shoot the gun and see what she can do. If the barrels are well regulated, I might be able to live with that "defect". I will see ...

That defect is not going to run away any time soon .... :D