Important info about Tin Star vs. Trail Boss for reduced loads in handguns

[John Ross]

Thoughts on TinStar powder compared to Trail Boss Mods may see fit to copy the thread to a different section...

Here's some info some may find interesting. Doing some checking with Quickload, two things become apparent.

First, the people who claim that TB is safe at 100% loading density in any cartridge are probably correct, except perhaps in the very weakest, junkiest firearms made originally for BP loads.

Doing a quick check of a .50 BMG round with an 800 grain bullet seated only .200" deep, 85 grains of TB is 100% load density, and gives 38,200 PSI and a muzzle velocity of 1520 FPS in a 26" barrel. Interestingly, raising the bullet weight to 2000 grains raises the pressure only a bit, to 39,500 PSI with M.V. of 978 FPS. Going for full-on crazy with a bullet of 7000 grains (one pound) gives 40,200 PSI and 525 FPS. This is all with the same 85 grain powder charge.

Second, according to Quickload, TinStar has almost exactly the same burning characteristics as TB on an identical weight basis. A charge of 85 grains of TinStar gives similar numbers as TB in these .50 BMG examples, and simulations on other cartridge/caliber combinations I have tried give similar results.

HOWEVER, and this is a very big deal, TinStar is much less bulky than TB. A charge weight that is 100% density with TB is only 67% density using TinStar. If we raise the charge with TS to 100% in our three .50 BMG examples, we get a charge weight of 126 grains and pressures of 66,000 to 68,000 PSI. This is not enough to bother either a Browning MG or a good bolt gun in this caliber, but it's an indication that TinStar carries some serious risks for the handloader with either a cavalier attitude or incomplete information. I'll explain:

Let's switch to the .45 Colt cartridge with 250 grain cast bullet. A charge of 8.9 grains of Trail Boss gives 100% loading density, 16,000 PSI, and 900 FPS out of a 5" barrel. This is 2,000 PSI above SAAMI Spec, but probably not enough to damage an original Colt.

Things get scary when we switch to TinStar. The same 8.9 grain charge gives only 67% loading density but a pressure of 17,400 PSI. Raising the load density to 100% gives us 13.5 grains of TinStar which gives a pressure of 38,000 PSI. Bye-bye original Colt...

TinStar is an interesting powder that can be used for reduced loads in modern guns by shooters who want more oomph than TrailBoss can deliver, but IMO in these cases there are always better choices.

As an example, a 100% density TinStar load in my beloved .500 S&W (24.5 gr.) with my 400 grain Alley Cleaner bullet gives 1200 FPS at 50,000 PSI. At an 80% loading density (19.6 gr.), we get 1060 FPS at 34,600 PSI. Neither of these loads will hurt the gun, but a powder like Ramshot Enforcer will give 1200 FPS at 23,000 PSI, the same velocity as the top TinStar load at less than half the pressure.

Even if TinStar were half the price of other powders, I don't think I'd ever use it. I think we're going to see some original Colt SAAs (and others) blown up with this powder by folks who mistakenly believe they can treat it like Trail Boss...

[Bubba w/a 45/70]

Very astute observations.

Hopefully this will be read before someone tries this, or they do their own research.

......but probably not.......

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Very interesting, thanks for posting. I cringe at the idea of another Colt’s getting blown. I’m loading a bunch of Trail Boss right now for this years matches -just because I have a bunch of Trail Boss and I want to get rid of it.

Light loads and large case capacity like the .45 Colt is a recipe for disaster especially for those loading by volume and loading cowboy ammo which is loaded at high volume on a progressive.

Personally for cowboy I use Schofield .45 brass from Starline and full weight 230 gr. boolits. I’m currently loading one full grain over max by weight as per the current edition of my favorite loading manual and still under factory velocity for the Schofield. My velocity deviation is extreme, but I don’t want to get DQ’d for failing to meet powder factor.

I’ve never tried Tin Star and don’t plan on it. Thanks for posting.

[35remington]

Honestly, if quickload predicts safe pressure with a bullet near 10 times normal weight using a 100 percent density load of trail boss in a 50 BMG, I highly suspect something is wrong with the quickload calculation.

Does not pass the common sense “smell” test.

Any predictive program has an envelope beyond which it is not accurate. I suspect that may be the case here.

[John Ross]

Honestly, if quickload predicts safe pressure with a bullet near 10 times normal weight using a 100 percent density load of trail boss in a 50 BMG, I highly suspect something is wrong with the quickload calculation.

Does not pass the common sense “smell” test.

Any predictive program has an envelope beyond which it is not accurate. I suspect that may be the case here.

I would normally agree, but TB is by design so bulky that it gets all consumed in short order in virtually any barrel length, without the pressure progression we see in "normal" powders. Others have tried it at 100% density in things like .30-06 with bullets of 70 to 220 grains and have seen the same results. I believe QL on this one.

[ReloaderFred]

The original post refers to experimenting with both powders in making up loads, but if published, tested data is used, then they're both safe to use as intended.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[John Ross]

The original post refers to experimenting with both powders in making up loads, but if published, tested data is used, then they're both safe to use as intended.

Hope this helps.

Fred

Some of us are old enough to remember the First Edition of Speer's reloading manual #8...

The point I was trying to make is that it's been widely stated that the "starting load" of Trail Boss powder is 70% of net case capacity under the bullet, and a max load is 100%.

Now many people are saying that Tin Star is "another reduced load Cowboy powder like Trail Boss."

Making the leap from this second statement to applying the Trail Boss "rule of thumb" to Tin Star could create serious problems.

Just sayin'...

[35remington]

I guess I will believe it when someone actually measures such a thing from actual use rather than predicts it from a program. Especially with a ten times increase from a standard weight bullet, rather than a slight percentage increase in the 06 over standard weight for caliber. 220 grains is a much smaller incremental change (25 percent or so) from a more standard 150-180 grain weight. Your cited 06 testing is in no way the same thing as multiplying the standard bullet weight for the caliber tenfold, so feel free to suppose I hail from Missouri in that regard.

I always remind myself the real science is in the actual testing, not the predicting. I won’t hold my breath waiting for someone to shoot an 1800 grain bullet out of an ‘06 or a one pounder out of a BMG, though!

[John Ross]

I guess I will believe it when someone actually measures such a thing from actual use rather than predicts it from a program. Especially with a ten times increase from a standard weight bullet

SNIP



I don't blame you for being skeptical. One thing to look at if you're really interested in this is to research shoulder fired harpoon guns, see who has one and see if they'd like to try it with Trail Boss.

https://books.google.com/books?id=nNgDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA534&lpg=PA534&dq=.45-70+harpoon+gun&source=bl&ots=dXAtJXhuSF&sig=8FAaq0OAfSI9Yarg1vILwupT-9Y&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi04Zaa24vZAhWBiYMKHaMyANkQ6AEIUjAJ#v=on epage&q=.45-70%20harpoon%20gun&f=false

I own a Greener 16 ga. harpoon gun. I'd have to weigh the harpoon but I think it's over a pound. I've never shot it.

[PbHurler]

I do love me some N32C (Tin Star). I've found it as a great replacement for the now discontinued IMR SR7625 that I'd standardized on for years, for my plinking loads in .357 & .44 (mag)

Picked up 10lb a few years back from Recobs @ 15.99 / Lb

[LUBEDUDE]

Thanks for the info John Ross.

I have some experience with Trail Boss but none with Tin Star. I was under the impression that Tin Star was just another Trail Boss. So glad you pointed out that there is a significant difference.

[ReloaderFred]

I use a lot of TrailBoss powder with cast bullets, and even though I've been reloading for over 54 years, and load for 32 different calibers, I still use published data for my loads. That isn't to say that I haven't experimented with loadings that aren't in the books, as I have, and my smokeless load for my .45-120 Sharps is one I came up with through much experimentation and testing, along with some loads for my 9x25 Dillon handguns. These are all in modern firearms, built from modern steels, and I used published load data to start with.

I also have a personal policy of not posting any of my loading data on open forums, since it's too easy to mistype, transpose or just plain not remember correctly.

Hope this helps.

Fred

PS: I also have, and use, QuickLoad, but I don't take it as gospel....

[Bigslug]

John,

Good cautionary intel there. Potentially sounds like a situation similar to Hodgdon Triple Seven being about 15% hotter per unit of volume, necessitating the occasional use of spacer wads if you want to duplicate original load specs. This made for a merry bit of head scratching when my father and I sat down to figure out the charge for the 1866 Chassepot rifle he was gifted by a friend. Being a "paper bag" cartridge of Dreyse descent, it's the only time I've been involved with a round where powder charge determines headspace.

Sounds like this Tin Star is potentially pretty useful stuff, provided one reads the directions. I guess my question would be how does it compares in bulk to things like Bullseye and other powders that are popular in little rounds up to perhaps .45ACP size? If the same safe velocity is achieved at greater load density, might it not make for a more consistent burn for match ammo?

I know why you did your extreme example, but the notion of a Trail Boss SASS load for .50BMG is making me chuckle.:mrgreen:

[MOA]

Thanks muchly for that information.

[35remington]

The reason I am skeptical is for those calibers where multiple bullet weights are tested, pressure goes up substantially with increasing bullet weight and allowed maximum charges decrease substantially in weight when bullet weight goes up. This per Hodgdon and their pressure tested data.

I cannot speak to all relationships, but a charge of Trail Boss that gets equivalent velocity to a charge of W231 with an 85 grain bullet in a 25-20 occupies two and a half times the volume.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Trail Boss sounds like just the powder for one of the little Lee hand loaders.

[rockrat]

"bigslug"---no offense, but I had to laugh at your post because I do have a TB load for an 850 gr boolit in the 50bmg!!!! 1600 fps and about an inch group @ 100yds. Makes for a nice "plinking load", when I want a bit milder load:)

[John Ross]

"bigslug"---no offense, but I had to laugh at your post because I do have a TB load for an 850 gr boolit in the 50bmg!!!! 1600 fps and about an inch group @ 100yds. Makes for a nice "plinking load", when I want a bit milder load:)

See, everybody, I'm not as crazy as it might appear at first blush... Validation!

[John Ross]

John,

Sounds like this Tin Star is potentially pretty useful stuff, provided one reads the directions. I guess my question would be how does it compares in bulk to things like Bullseye and other powders that are popular in little rounds up to perhaps .45ACP size? If the same safe velocity is achieved at greater load density, might it not make for a more consistent burn for match ammo?



I've never used it and Vihtavouri lists no data for it in .45 ACP. SAAMI max pressure for .45 ACP is 21,000 PSI.

Fooling around with Quickload reveals that loads with jacketed bullets 180-230 grains in weight hit around 20,000 PSI with Tin Star using charges that are around 90% loading density. Published loads for Bullseye get 19,000-20,000 PSI at around 60% density, and loads with Titegroup hit this level around 45% density.

Hodgdon lists Trail Boss loads for three cast bullets in .45 ACP on their site. Max loads with TB are around 16,000 PSI according to Hodgdon and appear to be at 100% density.

[opos]

Trail Boss sounds like just the powder for one of the little Lee hand loaders.
I had laid off reloading and shooting much for a few years...had too much invested in t ime and money in offshore fishing so that got the call...when I started back loading I didn't have much equipment so bought one of the little Lee hand presses and a 5-0-5 RCBS scale on e bay and misc other stuff where it showed up....I loaded 45Colt a bunch and really enjoyed it...slow but heck that is part of the fun...it does a great job...I use Missouri #4 Cowboy bullets with a 12 hardness and I shoot an original large frame Ruger Vaquero and a full size Ruger Blackhawk/45 acp combination....I don't get nutty with the crimps...won't tell you how much trailboss I shot under the 200 grain MGC RNFP pills but it was a very moderate load...accurate, nice and the Trail boss smells good...I'm still loading their bullets but now using the coated ones...it's wonderful if you don't cast and I can't cast for physical reasons..

[Groo]

Groo here
With what little loading I have done with trailboss , I would say it reacts as blackpowder.
Needing a good crimp, near full or full case and a hot primmer.
This should see similar pressures to BP and speeds BUT the pressure seems to come on a little slower. [16K to 18K psi]
Tin star sounds more like a smokeless powder [like we are use to] and not limited in pressure like TB or BP.
Like putting AA1680 in a 44 mag, you just about cant get too much in and still seat the bullet.

[44MAG#1]

Isn't there any loading data for Tin Star? If there is why not go by that? There will always be people experiment outside of published data. I can think of two,. Elmer Keith and JD Jones. There will sometimes be good results and bad results.

[Soundguy]

Thoughts on TinStar powder compared to Trail Boss
Let's switch to the .45 Colt cartridge with 250 grain cast bullet. A charge of 8.9 grains of Trail Boss gives 100% loading density, 16,000 PSI, and 900 FPS out of a 5" barrel. This is 2,000 PSI above SAAMI Spec, but probably not enough to damage an original Colt.

.

Where did you get your 45 colt trail boss data? I'm not at home to knock in a cast projectile, measure the case free volume and then figure a charge, but a quick look on Hodgdon's site shows a 250 grn CLRNFP with a starting charge of 4.5gr, velocity of 606fps, and a pressure of 8800psi, with a max load of 5.8gr, a velocity of 727fps, and a pressure of 12700 psi.

[John Ross]

Isn't there any loading data for Tin Star? If there is why not go by that?

Vihtavouri lists data for revolver rounds only. They provide no pressure data.

https://www.vihtavuori.com/reloading-data/cowboy-action-reloading/

Quickload estimates their starting .45 Colt load at 17,000 PSI and their max .45 Colt load at 22,000 PSI. Quickload estimates of velocities of these loads are within 15 FPS of Vihtavuori's numbers.

SAAMI spec for .45 Colt is 14,000 max PSI. Refer back to my comments in post #1 of this thread...

[John Ross]

Where did you get your 45 colt trail boss data? I'm not at home to knock in a cast projectile, measure the case free volume and then figure a charge, but a quick look on Hodgdon's site shows a 250 grn CLRNFP with a starting charge of 4.5gr, velocity of 606fps, and a pressure of 8800psi, with a max load of 5.8gr, a velocity of 727fps, and a pressure of 12700 psi.

Those were estimates supplied by Quickload. They may or may not reflect reality. Using Hodgdon's starting and max charges, QL predicts velocities virtually identical to Hodgdon's, but the estimated pressures are several thousand PSI lower.

[44MAG#1]

Vihtavouri lists data for revolver rounds only. They provide no pressure data.

https://www.vihtavuori.com/reloading-data/cowboy-action-reloading/

Quickload estimates their starting .45 Colt load at 17,000 PSI and their max .45 Colt load at 22,000 PSI. Quickload estimates of velocities of these loads are within 15 FPS of Vihtavuori's numbers.

SAAMI spec for .45 Colt is 14,000 max PSI. Refer back to my comments in post #1 of this thread...
Have you started at a safe load recommended by Quickload and worked slowly up to the start load that VV lists and watch for pressure signs? If you have what were they?
It would be interesting to know the results on your experimentation. Or have you contacted Vitavivouri about your findings using Quickload? If not why? That would seem to be the prudent thing to do.

[Soundguy]

Groo here
With what little loading I have done with trailboss , I would say it reacts as blackpowder.
Needing a good crimp, near full or full case and a hot primmer.
This should see similar pressures to BP and speeds BUT the pressure seems to come on a little slower. [16K to 18K psi]
Tin star sounds more like a smokeless powder [like we are use to] and not limited in pressure like TB or BP.
Like putting AA1680 in a 44 mag, you just about cant get too much in and still seat the bullet.

I would not put it near black for characteristics. As smokeless goes, its on the faster side, and it hates compressed loads, and loads as low as 70% free case fill under projectile are fine. Both of those points are opposite what you find with black powder.

[John Ross]

Have you started at a safe load recommended by Quickload and worked slowly up to the start load that VV lists and watch for pressure signs? If you have what were they?


No. I have never owned any Tin Star powder.

Furthermore, I have never owned a Colt SAA nor any other revolver that was not safe with loads of at least 30,000 PSI, except a J-frame .38 in which I shot ONLY factory ammo. There are no "pressure signs" one can safely rely on when loading for a revolver unless that revolver is designed to handle rifle-like pressures like the .454 Casull, .460 S&W. or .500 S&W. The first "pressure sign" the handloader will usually experience with a Colt SAA is the cylinder letting go.

I bought the Super Vel ballistics lab (including pressure gun) in 1976 when that company was going out of business. I learned that flattened or cratered pistol primers indicate pressures north of 50,000 PSI, and pistol primers pierce at around 55,000 PSI. Sticky extraction and/or cratered rifle primers in a .500 S&W indicate you're probably at or above 65,000 PSI. SAAMI spec is 62,000 PSI for the .500 S&W and 65,000 for the .454 Casull and .460 S&W, I believe.

I don't treat Quickload info as gospel, but I do think it is a useful "second opinion," and if QL tells me something that is seriously at odds with published data, the hair on the back of my neck stands up. One thing which I have no question doing with QL is using it to identify powders that are good candidates for milder loads of, say, 25,000 PSI in any of the super magnums. My own knowledge base tells me to disregard any suggested powders that are known to work poorly at this low of a pressure, like IMR rifle powders or H110/296.

[44MAG#1]

"There are no "pressure signs" one can safely rely on when loading for a revolver unless that revolver is designed to handle rifle-like pressures like the .454 Casull, .460 S&W. or .500 S&W."

To make a statement like that is kinda like saying anything a loading manual says about what to look for in pressure signs (and I most assuredly am not talking about primer signs) is like you pointing out another error in loading books.
I've reloaded since I was around 18 years old and I am 65 now. And I can tell you in a Colt SAA even with factory Cowboy loads there are sign s the case has been fired. Even in the clones one can get a hint of a sign. It may be a very, very, slight amount of case expansion but it will be there. It will be a measureable amount. Don't believe it try it with a load that is close to SAMMI spec on 45 Colt.
Especially with the way Colt SAA chambers are cut.
There again is the ole chronograph.
Now if you are talking Cowboy loads one might be able to catch in catchers mitt you may be right.
Talking like there are no pressure signs on a case in a 45 Colt until one Blows is ridiculous.
Of course if you are looking for badly swelled cases as you work up you are right.
It is all in what you look for.
Besides can you see a real Cowboy that would ever use "Cowboy" loads in their revolvers back in the day?
I know. I watch Gunsmoke and Matt Dillon wouldn't be caught dead with loads like that.
Rather than to point out that there are errors in loading data, what and who can we trust now?
Laying all joking aside, what do you recommend as to who and what we trust.
How do you do it?
Can we still use the old Keith load in the 44 Magnum? Can we not? What about Lyman recommending 25 gr H110 with CCI350 primers with the 429421 bullet also 13 gr Unique with a CCI300 primer?
What is safe now?
It seems that now things are more confusing than ever.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?171156-Vihtavuori-Tin-Badge-Powder

Go to post #5 and read what Mr Gibson has to say. He at least uses strain gauges with an Ohler Personal Ballistic Lab to determine load data.
He is the one you need to be referring and confabbing with too.
I trust what he says more than Quickload. And even he is not infallible.
But I still trust him, even though with a degree of caution because he is a human.

[John Ross]

"There are no "pressure signs" one can safely rely on when loading for a revolver unless that revolver is designed to handle rifle-like pressures like the .454 Casull, .460 S&W. or .500 S&W."

To make a statement like that is kinda like saying anything a loading manual says about what to look for in pressure signs (and I most assuredly am not talking about primer signs) is like you pointing out another error in loading books.
I've reloaded since I was around 18 years old and I am 65 now. And I can tell you in a Colt SAA even with factory Cowboy loads there are sign s the case has been fired. Even in the clones one can get a hint of a sign. It may be a very, very, slight amount of case expansion but it will be there. It will be a measureable amount. Don't believe it try it with a load that is close to SAMMI spec on 45 Colt.
Especially with the way Colt SAA chambers are cut.
There again is the ole chronograph.

SNIP


I think you and I have different definitions of the term "pressure signs."

I take it to mean things indicating excessive and borderline dangerous pressure that the shooter can see or feel just by looking at and/or handling the gun and/or fired cases. I don't consider being able to tell that a case has been fired vs. unfired a "pressure sign."

Chronograph data is immensely valuable in evaluating handloads, as you point out. However, it does not fit my above definition of "pressure sign." Accurate chronographs are now inexpensive enough that anyone who can afford a gun and reloading equipment can afford one, but I'd bet not more than a single digit percentage of reloaders own one and use it regularly.

We have been loading almost exactly the same number of years. I started in 1970.

I have a hypothetical question for you. Let's say we have a third person who owns two unfired Redhawks in .45 Colt caliber. He has assembled twelve rounds of ammo using new, factory-primed cases and cast bullets. Six cartridges are loaded for one gun with powder that generates a SAAMI-compliant load of 13,000 PSI. The six in the other gun are loaded to 26,000 PSI. You and I step away and turn our backs while he dual-wields the guns for all twelve rounds into the berm, then lays the guns on a table.

He challenges either of us to turn around, pick up the two guns, open them, extract and inspect the cases, look the guns over, etc. and tell him which gun fired which load.

Do you think you could do that? I don't think I could.

[44MAG#1]

Yes I do. First I would have a micrometer that reads in ten thousands. I would measure the cases along their length. Not just the expansion ring which on those loads would mean nothing. Even in low pressure there will be some expantion on the case. The lower the farther up the case it will be. In a Colt with big chambers and their clones it will be measureable.
I know as one who has done it.
The higher pressure loads will move the expansion farther down the case.
I am very familiar with the 45 Colts from the Redhawk using 415 gr bullet at a little over 1100 in 4.2 inches and down to a Uberti in 45 Colt with full Wadcutter loads.
In tight chambered FA revolvers it is difficult because the chambers are so tight it is hard to measure expansion even at high pressure but in a ruger in 45 Colt with the bigger chambers and the Colt and their clones chambered with even more roomy chambers it can be did as Festus would say.
Am I saying I tell you the PSI NO JUST AS YOU CANT.
But a standard can be set.
The standard can be something like Win. Cowboy loads or Blackhills etc.. without a standard who knows.
In any thing I do I fire at least a few factory loads to try to set some kind of standard.
Also if any thing seems suspicious I do a lot of study. I cross reference manuals, and I try to keep current ones etc..
I have bought two in recent days. Although with the errors we have nowit probably was money wasted.
Cases as they get thicker toward the head means that pressures must get higher out of proportion as the move the brass even a small amount compared to the thinner area.
C-A-U-T-I-O-N just because a charge moved the brass a certain amount on a shot may take a lot more to move the brass where the brass is thicker.
No free lunches.

[Larry Gibson]

I've done considerable pressure and velocity testing of VV Tin Star powder in most cartridges used in CASS including the 45-70. It is a faster burning powder than Unique and not really that "bulky".

To attempt any correlation loading Tin Star in a similar fashion to Trail boss is a fools errand and potentially very dangerous depending on cartridge and bullet weight used.

[John Ross]

Rather than to point out that there are errors in loading data, what and who can we trust now?

Laying all joking aside, what do you recommend as to who and what we trust? How do you do it?
Can we still use the old Keith load in the 44 Magnum? Can we not? What about Lyman recommending 25 gr H110 with CCI350 primers with the 429421 bullet also 13 gr Unique with a CCI300 primer?

What is safe now?

It seems that now things are more confusing than ever.



Here is how I do it, to answer your question:

First, I do trust proven loads that have been used for decades and pressure tested if those proven loads are with a powder that cannot generate a proof load if you get the powder charge wrong. Proof loads are typically ones that generate 50% more pressure than a max load. In the "normal" magnum revolver rounds, max is around 40,000 PSI, so a proof load would be 60,000.

22 grains of 2400 with the H&G #503 (Lyman 429421) is under 40,000 PSI and fills the case enough that if you do something wrong or your scale is off and you get a couple grains more powder in there without noticing it, pressure will still be nowhere near 60,000 PSI.

Funny you should mention 25 H110 with mag primer and original Keith bullet.

Back in the early '70s there were three different lots of H110 that had three (slightly) different burning rates. Remember that back then H110 was a surplus powder used to load .30 Carbine. In 1972 I corresponded with Lee Jurras at Super Vel and he told me that in his pressure gun 25.0 grains of the current lot generated 39,400 CUP using CCI 350 primers and the H&G 503 bullet.

This load was powerful, uniform, and accurate in all of our Smith 29s. A month after extensive shooting, my uncle and I ordered a Star tool in .44 magnum, and I asked Elard Mock to supply powder charge bars for 9.5 Unique, 22 2400, and 25 grs. H110.

Five months later the tool arrived and ever since then 25 H110 350 CCI with H&G 503 has been my standard load. I have shot over 120,000 of them and loaded another 40,000 or so for other people.

For "girlfriend loads" I use 9.5 Unique. I have never loaded more Unique than this in .44 Magnum. 13 grains may well be safe and proven, but IMO Unique is not the best powder to use for full strength loads for several reasons that I'll go into if you ask.

[44MAG#1]

First I have no intention of using Unique for full power loads. I was using that a s an example. Next I have used 25 grains of H110 years ago as recommended by Kent Lomont. I just prefer 2400 though.
Now days everyone is so scared of older date they would have to take a box of Ex Lax to use the bathroom if they used any of it.
And so it goes.

[John Ross]

I've done considerable pressure and velocity testing of VV Tin Star powder in most cartridges used in CASS including the 45-70. It is a faster burning powder than Unique and not really that "bulky".

To attempt any correlation loading Tin Star in a similar fashion to Trail boss is a fools errand and potentially very dangerous depending on cartridge and bullet weight used.

That was my point in the original post in this thread, and I made it specifically because I'd heard many people say things like "Tin Star is a Cowboy action powder like Trail Boss"...

Can you share any pressure data with this powder, since Vihtavuori doesn't?

[John Ross]

Thanks for the detailed explanation about pressure signs in lower-pressure loads using a micrometer. Very enlightening.


I have used 25 grains of H110 years ago as recommended by Kent Lomont.

Now we're talking the same language!

I started corresponding with Kent (and Lee Jurras, and JD Jones) in 1971. I finally met them all in person when my uncle Graves and I were invited to a gathering of Auto Mag enthusiasts at the Super Vel plant in 1973. They all became lifelong friends, with Kent being one of the groomsmen in my wedding. Unfortunately, JD and I are the only ones still around...

Lee is not in the picture below as he was the one holding the camera...

213561

[44MAG#1]

I have a few of JD's barrels for Contender and Encore handguns.
Lomont did some pressure testing for me and I also bought bullets from him.

[Soundguy]

I corresponded with Lee Jurras at Super Vel .

Lee Jurras of the .41 Jurras mag pistol ( 41 JMP / Auto Mag )? Neat. Don't hear that name much anymore. Love my 44 AMP...

[Don Purcell]

Slightly off topic but I still miss Kent. Good memories of camping and shooting at strip mines in southern Indiana. Soundguy, unfortunately Lee passed away almost a year ago but was glad I was able to spend a little time with him when he lived in Washington, Indiana.

[John Ross]

Slightly off topic but I still miss Kent. Good memories of camping and shooting at strip mines in southern Indiana.

Don, does this pic bring back any memories...?

213584

[Soundguy]

Slightly off topic but I still miss Kent. Good memories of camping and shooting at strip mines in southern Indiana. Soundguy, unfortunately Lee passed away almost a year ago but was glad I was able to spend a little time with him when he lived in Washington, Indiana.

I hadn't heard of his passing. Thanks for the post.

[Don Purcell]

Yes John, wish I had been there. I got to shoot my first bolt action for the .50 Browning using Kent's, the one with the laminate stock. We camped north of Dugger, Indiana, he and I and his son Chris. He definitely opened my eyes on how anemic my standards were on volume shooting that Thanksgiving weekend in 1980! Needless to say I was pumped when I got home and was determined to seriously up my game. Elmer Keith had mentioned Kent several times in his Gun Notes column and I believe mentioned him during a phone conversation. So I called Kent out of the blue one evening with a problem I was having (which he solved before I finished describing it) and we ended up talking for over an hour. When he told me he would sometimes come down to shoot at the strip mines around Dugger and Linton, Indiana we realized I was only an hour away and the rest was history. He changed my life and I was proud to call him my friend.

[Larry Gibson]

That was my point in the original post in this thread, and I made it specifically because I'd heard many people say things like "Tin Star is a Cowboy action powder like Trail Boss"...

Can you share any pressure data with this powder, since Vihtavuori doesn't?

Cartridge?

[John Ross]

Yes John, wish I had been there. I got to shoot my first bolt action for the .50 Browning using Kent's, the one with the laminate stock. We camped north of Dugger, Indiana, he and I and his son Chris. He definitely opened my eyes on how anemic my standards were on volume shooting that Thanksgiving weekend in 1980!

I built that rifle for him in 1977. It was pretty much a duplicate of the one I built for myself in 1976, except the stock was walnut/maple laminate instead of laminated walnut.

The experiences you had regarding Kent inspiring you to up your game mirrored my own from 1973.

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[John Ross]

Cartridge?

How about .44 Special or Magnum, 45 Colt, and 45-70 with whatever bullets you used.

[Don Purcell]

John, I don't mean to intrude on this post but Kent sent me a photo of Elmer Keith wearing his "Keith Stetson" smoking a cigar holding a Century Arms 45-70 sixgun and I believe your .50 cal. from the above photo. It's framed above my loading bench.

[John Ross]

John, Kent sent me a photo of Elmer Keith wearing his "Keith Stetson" smoking a cigar holding a Century Arms 45-70 sixgun and I believe your .50 cal. from the above photo. It's framed above my loading bench.

Was it the one with the laminated walnut stock from 1976, or the much prettier benchrest quality second version I built in 1978?

Me with Keith and the MkI:
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Me with the MkII:
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[Don Purcell]

Looks like it's the second "fancy" one. Kent said it was the biggest piece of wood you could find for the job. The picture never fails to cause visitor's to say "My god...". My memory fails me but what is the history of the action you used? By the way I have two of your 5 inch .500's, one stainless the other two tone but with matching serial numbers. Reminds me, I need to get some more .500 cast up. All the best and take care of your back, Don.

[John Ross]

That was the thickest blank of Bastogne walnut that Jack Burres had in his inventory of over 10,000 stock blanks in 1978, 3 1/8" full length. It had beautiful fiddleback figure in the grain; he charged me $100 for it and I was glad to pay that.

It was delivered to me in college in Massachusetts my Junior year, and I opened the package in the school lunchroom. As my eyes lit up, a pretty, artsy-type girl squealed and asked "Oooh, are you making a dulcimer?"

She couldn't understand why the male friends I was with and I all started howling with laughter...

The action is a one-off, made from a 2 3/8" diameter bar of 4140 12" long, heat treated to 42C Rockwell. It uses a Remington 40X match trigger. It was made with the assistance of Art Freund and is an enlarged version of his design of custom benchrest actions, of which he made less than a dozen.

The barrel in the pictures is a turned down M2 blank I got from Numrich, chambered with a standard spec .50 BMG reamer. I used that while I was waiting for a 1:10" twist match blank to be delivered by Boots Obermeyer. I turned that blank to a straight taper and chambered it in .50 Improved with a match-spec neck using a reamer I designed that Keith Francis of JGS ground for me. Using monolithic bronze bullets, the gun shoots sub-1" groups at 300 yards. I never had the chance to put it on paper at longer ranges.

Proofreading this post, I just remembered a funny story involving this rifle. As you can imagine, it always caused a stir at the Benchrest club, and they asked me to shoot it at their matches as a sort of halftime entertainment. One member jokingly suggested I bring it to the upcoming "deer match" that was being held in advance of deer season.

In this match, competitors had to fire 5 rounds offhand at a life size paper deer target at 100 yards. Scoring areas were anatomical: Heart/lung, brain, and spine. I said I'd think about it and asked for one of the deer targets to take home with me to study.

Over the next few weeks I practiced dry-firing my 37 pound rifle in the offhand position. In those days my deadlift was over 500 pounds and holding the gun offhand wasn't as bad as I'd expected, especially when I laid the gun on a table for a simulated reload immediately after dry-firing it.

Come match day, I told the organizers to put me at the far end of the 50-bench range, away from the other shooters so as not to make them flinch. As I recall, there were 32 of us participating in this low-key fun match.

To just about everyone's astonishment (including my own), when the scoring was done I had come in Second! I later learned that Art Freund had bet $5 that I would be in the top 5, and the guy who had taken the bet thought Art was throwing his money away.

Good times...

[Don Purcell]

Now I know! Thanks for the info. That's a great story and one of the things that make this society of shooters so great. Take care.

[Larry Gibson]

How about .44 Special or Magnum, 45 Colt, and 45-70 with whatever bullets you used.

These loads were developed for CASS shooting as the VV manual start loads have a higher velocity than desired or used heavier bullets than desired. All PSI's measured via Oehler M43 with Contender barrels with 10 shot test strings. Velocities are at the muzzle.

Note: no wad or filler was used in any load.

44 Special w/VV Tin Star N32C;
WW cases, Federal 150 primers, Lee & Desperado 205 gr RF bullets.
4.2 & 4.5 gr TS less than 9,000 psi
5.1 gr; 12,100 psi
5.4 gr; 12,400 psi
5.7 gr; 13,400 psi
6.0 gr; 14,500 psi
6.3 gr; 15,700 psi

4.6 gr was selected as potentially the best load for CASS use with the 205 gr bullet.
4.6 gr/test barrel: less than 9,000 psi
4.6 gr/ 6" revolver; 643 fps
4.6 gr/16" Carbine; 792 fps

44 Magnum
WW cases, Federal 150 primers, Lee & Desperado 205 gr RF bullets
4.5 through 6.6 gr TS was rested in .3 gr increments. PSI was less than 9,000 psi in all loads tested.
The selected CASS load (6.0 gr) proved to be the best load tested for CASS shooting.
6.0 gr/6" revolver; 697 fps
6.0 gr/16" Carbine; 890 fps
In the larger 44 case TS did not perform that well for CAS low level loads exhibiting large SD and ES in both the pressure barrel and test revolvers.

45 Colt
Starline cases, Federal 150 primers, LaserCast 200 gr RF bullets
5.8 gr to 9.0 gr TS had less than 11,000 psi.
9.5 gr; 13,300 psi
7.5 gr/4 3/4" revolver; 696 fps = selected as best CASS type load with TS.
7.5 gr/5 1/2" revolver; 708 fps
7.5 gr/20" Carbine; 928 fps

The VV manual lists one load with TS N32C under a 251 gr LRNFP starting at 8.3 gr and a max at 9.6 gr. They list 889 and 1001 fps out of a 6" test barrel. I pressure tested 8.3 gr, 8.9 gr and 9.5 gr TS under Lyman's 454190s.
8.3 gr; 17,700 psi
8.9 gr; 18,200 psi
9.5 gr; 20,400 psi

45-70 (Trapdoor level) with Tin Star N32C Powder;
Starline cases, CCI 200 primers, hard cast 413 gr (supposed to be 405 gr), 24" test barrel
10 gr; 14,500 psi, 843 fps
11 gr; 14,500 psi, 883 fps (psi average is not a misprint....just the way it is sometimes!)
12 gr; 16,400 psi, 947 fps
13 gr: 18,400 psi 1000 fps
14 gr; 21,700 psi, 1060 fps
14.5 gr; 23,800 psi, 1094 fps
15 gr; 28,500 psi, 1132 fps

At 13 gr VV Tin Star N32C exhibited an extremely fast rise to pressure. With a burning rate faster than Unique that should be no surprise. I selected the 15 gr load to test in my H&R Officer's Model 1873 TD since that is the MAP listed for TD level loads by SAAMI.
The velocity from the 26" OM was 1086 fps. Accuracy was excellent using the tang rear sight and post front sight. The 10 test shots went into a 1.222" group at 100 yards. Even with that I wouldn't use this load in my TD because the powder burns so fast and there just isn't any room for error. Load density was low and a double charge could easily fit in the case under the bullet.

[reader]

I wish there was more about Kent Lomont and his shooting somewhere. I have tried to find out but guess there is not too much material available. Someone should write his biography about guns and shooting while still remembering details. The same humble wishes applies to John Ross.

From the letters published later, Elmer Keith wrote some comments to Lomont in 1966: "your firing 500 to a 1000 44 mags a day is simply a **** fool endurance test and never conductive to best work." ...and I bet with a smile on his face. I see Lomont was only 20 or 21 years old then.

Keith also mentioned there is a film Keith and Lomont working two guns at once. Lomont's dad was filming. I would do almost anything to see it.

[Don Purcell]

reader, you have read something that's been on my mind for awhile since Kent passed away. About the home movies. Kent told me he had movies of Elmer from back around 1965-66 of him shooting two four inch S&W Model29's at a gallon can several feet in front of him. He said when you timed it, Elmer dumped 12 rounds into or extremely close to the can in 2 1/2 seconds. This with full power loads. One of the last times I talked to Kent was at the Knob Creek Machinegun Shoot in Kentucky and asked him about the movies and he should transfer them to DVD but he though they may have been lost in a fire. I was fortunate enough to look through several of Kent's photo albums at times, and yeah, it definitely would make one hell of a biography. All the best, Don.