Deterioating Powder

[Dorf]

I just checked my powder storage cabinet and found a can of IMR #4064 that had rusted thru-- The wierd part is that it evidently rusted from the inside! It wasn't just a "pin hole"-- the whole can separated at the level of the powder inside. I don't remember when I bought it but it was several years ago. (Lot #TE 5 2201) possibly back in the '60s. The question is has this ever happened to anyone else here? I checked the rest of my "stock" and everything seems to be OK. Any info/insight will be appreciated. TIA, Stan

[felix]

Probably water from the atmosphere. High humidity when using?
Nitric acid does the rot-the-can thing. ... felix

[Junior1942]

Yep, I lost 10 to 15 lbs of powder and 1,000s of primers when I stored them for several years in my dad's non-airconditioned house here in high heat, high humidity Louisiana. I now store them at a constant low temp and low humidity in a used but working frost-free fefrigerator-freezer.

[Dorf]

Felix: You may have something re the high humidity thing. The cap was on tight but as I think of it, I only used IMR 4064 years ago working up loads for 8x57. At the time I was living in Maine and loading in the cellar (w/o dehumidifier)-- Very possible cause.
Junior: Thx for the 'fridge idea -- I'll have to look around the local GoodWill and yard sales.

[Junior1942]

Dorf, just don't open any containers until they come to room temperature. Put smaller things in zip bags.

[454PB]

I've seen the same rusting can problem with IMR 4064 and IMR 4198. I quit "buying ahead" with IMR powders, and try to use ball powers bought in bulk. I've never seen ball powder deteriorate.

[Dorf]

454 PB: Thx for the input. I thought I had a real unique (no pun intended) problem but glad to hear that it's happened to someone else. Good idea on ball powders. Also nice to see that most powders today are coming through in plastic cannisters -- maybe the rusting can problem is more wide spread than I imagined. BTW can anybody come up with a date for the lot #? (Lot #T E 5 2201) TIA Stan

[357tex]

I have not had a problem with powder going bad,guess I am lucky.Last year I opened a foot locker, that I put in the shed Back in 1979 when I got out of the army.It had sit the corner under a pile of junk and I forgot about it.In it was a half can of hodgdon 4064.I got it in a trade in the early 70's even then it was old it had the small screw cap on it.Smelled good shot good.Also a can of Imr 3031 still good.This was in a open on one side shed,here in east Texas.I had always heard of powder going bad,but never seen it.

[Randy in Arizona]

:-D:-D
I had the good fortune to buy a 50 pound keg of H4831 for $35.00 when a local sporting goods store still had some.

It is all still good. I have however found some thick HDPE jugs to separate the remaining powder into so that if it starts to go bad, not all of it will be affected.

[Shuz]

The only powder I've ever had deteriorate on me was a 1 lb can of old DuPont 4064. It happened about 20 years ago, and also happened to a buddy of mine who bought the same powder at about the same time. We never did compare lots as we had both disposed of the cans long before we discovered we both had the same experience. We both live in NE Washington state where the humidity is extremely low throughout the year, to the extent that none of my steel moulds has ever rusted on me, and I don't bother to treat them or oil them between uses.

[skeet1]

About 10 years ago I had 5 lb of H322 start giving off the rusty looking dust and rusting the cap on the container it was in. I called Hodgdon and spoke with George Weber who made me promise to dispose of the bad powder and he sent me five pounds of fresh H322. Evidently the powder I had was some left from the original surplus they had purchased from the govt. Mr. Weber said that it was probably starting to go bad when I got it. I felt that I had gotten great service from Hodgdon.

Skeet1

[GOPHER SLAYER]

About two yrs ago a friend gave me four six pound cans of Hercules powder.The cans are round and look like little barrels.It was mfg .in 1939. One of the cans was marked Hercules Lightning.A friend has some loading manuals from the 1950's.I found a load for the 30.06 and loaded some with about 25 grns and they worked just fine.The powder is shaped like little donuts and it doestn's meter worth a dime.It also leaves many of the little donuts in the barrel after firing.I can see why they dropped it.If however it was the only powder I had I would not hesitate to use it.

[crowbeaner]

I've had cans of IMR powder rust the can, but not completely through and through. As a matter of fact I have 3 lbs, of 7828 that has rusted the tops, but they are all still sealed. I'm going to use it soon so the stuff won't get any worse. If it still smells good, I use it. I have a can of Hi Vel #2 that I checked the other day and it still smells like IMR powder, so I know it's good. It has to date from the 60s anyway.

[felix]

Hivel2 has up to 40 percent nitroglycerin. Not likely to fall apart because of water, unless the atmosphere included bugs where you live are attracted by the "smell" of glycerin. ... felix

[mike in co]

SO THE CONTAINER RUSTED OUT, WHAT HAPPENED TO THE POWDER ??


in the past i have seen a rusted container or two.....the container not the powder.

inspected the powder..had a red/brown dust, but appeared un affected.


poured the powder very slow in front of a lite air stream...( multiple times..till no dust)


the red/brown dust( rust) blew away....left me with powder.

did limited retests to compare to prior results...no change

not reccommended if you have no data to comapre to or question the actual condition of the powder...smell/ looks


mike in co

[Dorf]

Mike in CO: Thx for the info. As for the powder, it was contamimated with "rust dust" the same as you report. There didn't appear to be any change in the appearance or physical characteristics of the granules that I could see, however, not having any immedite need of any 4064 and not being able to remember where or when I purchased it, I dumped it in my wife's flower garden (hope it doesn't make the roses go "ballistisc"). In any event, thx to all for the info you have shared. Stan

[crowbeaner]

You gotta be careful putting old powder on the roses; it will make them shoot out more stems and posies. I just opened a can of RL 21 that has to date from the early 60s, and it smelled just fine. I loaded it into some 30/06 with 165s. I still have to load 30 more. If you think IMR powders are hard to work with, try some of this stuff. It's like trying to get pine logs to flow through the measure!

[ndhole]

I had several white paper bags of hodgdon 4831 a friend had bought at an auction about 10 years ago. I called hodgdon to make sure the stuff would even still be good since it didn't even have a smell anymore. The gentleman I spoke with said it was probably from the 50's or 60's and as long as it hadn't started to break down it was ok to use. He told me that when it breaks down or degrades you will see the little red flakes and it will have a very strong acidic smell to it. I put it into several empty 4831 cans and after a few years went to use the last of it to load up some 30-06 and the lid to the can was rusted almost off. When I opened it the smell was strong enough to take your breath away and when I dumped it out in the yard there were the little red flakes. I didn't chance using it, the way he had made it sound is that it becomes unstable at that point and is unsafe to use.

[Alvin in AZ]

The powder that I had trouble with was -DuPont- 4320.

I read up on it and found out my "beloved" single-based-rifle-powders were more
prone to doing that than the double based powders. :/

But it's weird tho, I was given a "very" old can of 4064 (can with the tiny little
lid) and it was fine right up to last year when I used it all up. :)

It seems to be a crap shoot which can's going to go side-ways on you.
My 4320 was stored in the house with A/C.
The older 4064 was stored in a barn.

The bad 4320 was caught in the early stages of breaking down and never -smelled-
acidic, just rusted the inside of the can is all.

I loaded some of the 4320 up and it shot fine so loaded up all of it and gave them
to someone that was going to shoot them all right away in a rather wasteful
manner. As long as it doesn't smell bad it's still close to the same stuff according
to what I'd read.

The silly sucker didn't shoot any of them and is yet to return them to me. :/

The loads are ~2200fps 110gr carbine bullets in 30-30.

Alvin in AZ

[badgeredd]

Dorf,
I Just opened a can of 4064 from the early 70s and guess what? Yep, it too had rusted the inside of the can. I disposed of it out in the drive. Funny thing is I have several other IMR powders of the same age that are fine. All of them have been stored in cool dry conditions. My powder had a different lot number than yours, L2451. BTW the outside of the can looked perfect! Odd that several have had the problem with this particular powder.

[mike in co]

let this be a lesson to all of you.....keep your powder out of metal cans!....cans are bombs.....no simple vent to relieve pressure in case of fire.

plastic and cardboard will allow the powder to burn...without building any pressure.


and i think a paper bag is better than a can!

mike in co

[Dew]

Just had several powders given to me by a friend that had heavy rust on the outside of the cans. Inside was just fine. OLD lots of H-380, 4350 Surplus and Ball C lot #1. The cans were rusted because of outside storage and I needed to give the powder a new home. I prefer the plastic powder containers such as the Hodgdon brands come in but I didn't have any empty ones at this time.

What to do? Went to the local paint store and they sold me some one quart metal paint cans. $ 1.79 each and they hold about a pound of powder plus or minus. Now, I know that Winchester use to use metal cans. I also had three pound tins of Bullseye and other powders that came in metal cans. In case of a fire the cans will pop off the top as they are designed to do with little pressure. Since cans have been used for many years it seems to me there will be little danger with new ones. Cans have seams that will give when over heated.

Of course I will be checking the powder often to make sure it is OK.

I marked the information on the outside of the can with a "Sharpie" but I also put the info on paper and stuck it on the side and used clear tape to cover the writing. If you don't do any marking but with just a Sharpie, it will come off with just about any type of cleaner getting on it.

Best,
D

[PatMarlin]

How bout' used Hydrogen Peroxide bottles?

[Jim]

I bought a package of dessicant packets a few years back. Put a couple or so in each plastic jug of my milsurp powders and one in each of my smaller cannisters. I took them out last year, reconditioned them and put them back. My powder's dry as a cat's @$$.

[45 2.1]

I bought a package of dessicant packets a few years back. Put a couple or so in each plastic jug of my milsurp powders and one in each of my smaller cannisters. I took them out last year, reconditioned them and put them back. My powder's dry as a cat's @$$.

Powder has some moisture in it. If you take some out, it will burn hotter and at a different rate. Much the same thing happens when you load a cereal filler in bigger cartridges and store them for awhile. They produce higher pressures when fired after long storage. Be carefull............................

[PatMarlin]

I don't think his cat's **** would be all that dry.. Just a guess... :mrgreen:

[Ricochet]

Powder has some moisture in it. If you take some out, it will burn hotter and at a different rate.
Exactly so. Powders need to maintain their moisture level they shipped with, something like 2%. It's a thin liquid film that seals surface cracks. Atmospheric humidity doesn't deteriorate smokeless powder. Heat does.

It's not rare to find old cartridge cases corroding through from the inside from nitrogen oxide fumes from deteriorating nitrocellulose after the inhibitors in the powder that absorb those things have been used up. (That's when powder gets hazardous.) Sometimes holes will open up on firing.

A few years ago I saw a beautiful old Gibson guitar with a nitrocellulose lacquer finish and celluloid pick guard that had been left closed in its case for about 55 years. The celluloid had shriveled up like a flat possum on the highway in July, and all the nickeled brass hardware was coated in thick green verdigris from the fumes.

[Hardcast416taylor]

I`ve had 3 seperate instances of bad IMR powders rusting. The 3 were 4320, 4064 and just last month 4831. All of the cans were bought during the `70`s. All the cans were 3/4 full or unopened. I destroyed by burning all 3. I have a little more respect for my guns than to shoot red rust contaminated powder in it, irregardless how many times you blow the dust off the powder.:(

[georgeld]

IF I was putting powder into new cans I'd put it in sealed plastic bags first rather than just the can itself, especially after reading this.

Back in the late 60's I got div and joined the Army. Left my 27lbs of 4895 and equipment in a wood chest in the folks basement. Some yrs later I still hadn't gotten back to it and they'd moved to town and put it under the shop bench. Sometime about '80 Dad was going to "develope a spring" in the pasture where there was a seep. THinking he might get another water hole going for the cows.

He bought five sticks and some caps, borrowed a loader and dug a hole. Poured all my precious 50 cent a pound powder in with the dynamite, covered it with a couple buckets of dirt and rocks.

I guess when it all went off 2-3ft dia boulders flew over his head at 100yds and the ground shook. After the dust cleared and rocks quit falling he was half concerned about going down to take a look. But, when he did, found a nice pond blown out and a good water flow running already. Had no need for the loader at all. Made a dandy stock tank for yrs.

Ten yrs later I went to buy powder and found it was $16lb and that upset me.
I'm sure from the size of that pond he blew out that powder was still good.

[Ricochet]

LOL, that's awesome! :mrgreen: