Newbie to reloading - 44mag brass bulging/buckling

[mncampnhunt]

Hey all - Thanks in advance. So I made my first ever 50 rounds over the weekend and had some issues. I have a brand new Lee Challenger Deluxe Kit, 4 die carbide set and 300 brand new Star-Line cases to go with my new Ruger Super Blackhawk Hunter (slugged bore is .4295 ish and that slug takes a very little push to go thru the cylinders) that is topped with a 2-7 Burris (no rounds fired yet) - Primarily this is for deer hunting in Minnesota. So I decided the first thing was to load up some "paper target" loads - objective was 240gr boolits at a very mild 700-900 fps. So went to Cabelas to use some points (local) and got Unique, CCI primer and the only lead 240 gr bullets they had - 500ct Lazer-Cast SWC (Keith style) but they say .431 (and thats what the caliper says too)($72).

Pulled out 50 cases, they all measure short of typical lenght. Size them (figured it was good practice), debured the ID, primed them (Bench Auto Primer - worked nice), expanded them. I had to do this again as the first "standard" setting didn't have enought flare (frankly I wondered that if I have to flare that much all the time than my case life wouldn't be very good). Then filled them with 4 differant powder wheight charges (5.7, 6.2, 6.6 and 7gr for those that might ask). Insert the seating die and start - first couple not bad, have to use more force than I expected to push in a lead bullet. Then more force and start to see that the cases are noticable expanded brass around the boolit, but they fit in the cylinder. Then I start having cases buckle too (below the boolits). Out comes the Hornady cam type in press boolit puller and I can only remove 1 out of 12. Out of 50 I will be thowing 10 away. Cases ID is about .427. Concerned that this could create too high of internal pressure, before the bullet comes out of the case.

??? Should I scrap them all or do you think I can shoot them???

??? Root Cause thoughts ???

My guess is the Lazer-Casts are too big (and hard) for the new cases. Maybe if it was fired brass rather than new? I ordered a Lee .429 bullet sizer today as I own 450 and the sizer is only $18. Do I return the remaining bullets to Cabelas as a statement of disgust?

Note: After some more practice with both revolver and reloading - I'll working up a 300 gr WFN load to maybe 1100fps as my "hunting load" and be looking for some acceptable accuracy out to 100yds (expecting hunting limit more like 75yds). Maybe 265 or 280gr - don't need "hammers of Thor" for Whitetales, but something I can shoot well.

[Grmps]

mncampnhunt welcome to CB forum
slightly bulged brass usually isn't a problem. I would not shoot the crumpled/accordioned one

for a bore of .4295 ish .431 would be a good size to shoot. You need to let your gun tell you. Technically 1 to 3 thou over is standard depending on the alloy (hardness) how fast your pushing them and if your running GC (gas checks) normally 44 mag don't require GC if the diamiter and alloy are correct
If your 4 die case is from Lee, you should have an expander/powder through die.
run all you cases through that, adjusting it down until the boolits start easily but don't slide in
In the world of Cast boolits reloading, you will need a boolit sizing die. Many people start with lee size/lube die.
If you are planning on casting/reloading multiple calibers it may be worthwhile to buy an NOE boolit size die body then you just need to buy the proper size bushing for each caliber.

Pictures are both appreciated and help greatly in answering questions.
This id the easiest way I've found to do pictures
Posting pictures using IMGUR
1 Go to https://imgur.com/
Select sign up
Fill out information or register with: facebook, twitter, Google+ or Yahoo account
Log into your account
Select new post, upload image, browse, select your image from your computer and click open
Hover mouse over your chosen name (top right toolbar) and select images
Left click on the image you want to post
Then click on COPY next to [BBCode (message boards & forums)]
Go to the post you want to put the image in, either right click and select paste or hit [Ctrl + V]
Save your post and you're done.

here are other options dealing with pictures.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?344661-Capturing-amp-Posting-screen-shots

[Thumbcocker]

It is normal to have the case look smaller under the boolit. If the case actually buckled I would like to see some pics.

[knifemaker]

Measure the dia. of the expander die as it may be to small to open up the brass to accept your .431 bullet. Normally that dia. bullet should seat without any problems if you are flaring enough and your expander die is of proper dia. I would think it should be .429 or .428 in dia. If it is smaller then that by a few thousand, there is your problem. You should flare the case mouth where the bullet base will sit in the case to prevent scraping of the bullets sides.

[Minerat]

If I miss understood I apologize up front and if you are using the expander die then I did.

They give you 4 dies for a reason, (not trying to be condescending)

1 - resize and decap.

2 - expand case back to hear bullet size, bell mouth and add powder. How much bell is usually whatever I feel will allow me to get the bullet started but not scrape on the wall of the seater die. If not enough then you get the crushing when your bullet gets off centered and if too much the case won't go in the die and cause a bent lip or difficulty crimping. My rule of thumb is if I can sit a bullet in the case while in the loading block without it tipping then I'm good.

3 - seat bullet. Pretty much says it all.

4 - crimp. You can do as little as straightening the case mouth, to too much by bulging the case.

By slowly adjusting the #2 and #4 dies by cycling the press and measuring, adjust die and repeat you will get it. The NOE die takes the place of the #2 die but allows you to expand the case closer to cast boolit size instead of whatever size Lee chooses for J words. In other words you can get a 0.431 expander so you are not swaging the boolit with the case and use the crimp to hold the boolit in the case.

Try a Kinect puller, one of them hammer things, sometimes they will work better on a crimped boolit when breaking down loads. As for over pressure due to crimp, you are shooting mild 44 special loads so it's not likely you will have a problem. This is assuming you can chamber the rounds.

I shot some 41 mags with 6.4 grs of Unique last weekend with a heavy crimp and still had soot on the cases because they did not expand enough to seal the cylinder. I agree with Grmps pictures would go along way for us to see your problems.

Good luck.

[mncampnhunt]

Thanks All. To confirm the issues were while seating (die 3) well before I crimped. Just measured the expansion hollow pin and it is .427 with a bit of a taper before you get to the belling radius. I didn’t have any lead shave off, but a couple even began to roll the brass lip inward before getting to the canalure groove. I think I attached pictures here. I won’t use the damaged ones - but sounds like I can shoot the rest?
213042
213043

[knifemaker]

For a good neck tension on the bullet, all you need is the inner case being about one thousand less then your bullet dia. to prevent bullet jump. You may need to get a slightly larger case expander for your sizing die from Lee. .428 would be ideal and still allow you to have good neck tension on .429 jacketed bullets. I would measure more of the cast bullets you have on hand to make sure they are consistant in dia. and watch your belling of the case mouth to make sure your bullet base will just sit in the case. I load 44 mag and 44 special and have no problem seating bullets that are ,432 in dia. using starline cases.

[earlmck]

If you're buckling 44 mag cases like that you are waaaay overcrimping. Or missing the crimp groove. The buckling has nothing to do with the case expansion-- it is totally a crimp thing.

On the brighter side, if it will chamber go ahead and shoot it. You may salvage some brass.

[Grmps]

Brainstorming here --measure the od/id of the new cases and compare that to SAMI of old cases you have that work well.
Good job on the pictures lets us see things sometimes people fail to mention because they don't think they are important.

[knifemaker]

earlmck, reread his second post and he clearly says that the problem showed up while seating the bullets and before he went to the crimping stage. He also stated that the seating operation was harder then he was expecting while seating the bullet into the case.

[Greg S]

It appears you are seating and crimping in one operation. You need to seat first, then re-adjust the die a couple of turns or so lower and roll crimp each shell.

To set up to seat, take a flared case and insert it in the shell holder. Insest the seat/crimp die and screw it in until you justmstart to feel resistance from the roll crimp portion of the die. Once you feel the resistance, back off the die (unscrew it) half to a full turn. Set the jam nut to lock the die in. Now, back off the seating stem a few (4-6) turns. Seat a bullet and adjust the seating stem until the bullet is sested to thendesired oal. Seatmanother to verify. Set jamb nut on stem andmseat your bullets.

Once all are seated, loosen the seating stem jamb nut and unscrew half a dozen turns. Loosen jam nut on die and with a shell in the shell holder start running the cartridge up into the die fully till it stops. Retract, inspect crimp and screw in die until you have a good crimp. Verify with a second shell. If it is good, run the shell back up insto the die and tighten the jamb nut. Insure the seating stem is still loose and you are not trying to push the bullet into the case further.

ETA: Your cast lead boolits and seating stem are probably fine. Lee offers oversized expanders for lead bullets either through Midway or Lee direct. RCBS offers a cowboy expander set up for lead bullets too. Lets first fix the basic loading technique before we start chasing other finite details. Hope this helps, Greg.

[Greg S]

Generally, FL Size dies are on the min side of SAAMI and will over size the case alittle from what factory brass comes. I know my Lyman 44 mag dies do. The old style steel dies which required lube were tapered as is the chamber on pistol cartridges but with the availability of carbide sizer dies, it is just a small ring at the entrance of the die that does all the work.

[Wayne Smith]

Your dies are made for condom bullets and will work fine for them. They are too small for Cast Boolits - as you have found. Get thee to thy computer (of course, reading this you are already there) and purchase for thyself the Lee expanding die and the NOE inserts that replace the Lee inserts. These will expand the mouth of your cases adequately for your boolits and will create a slight shelf so they will sit straight in the case and seat straight.

As you expand your shooting/casting interests to other calibers you will go back to the NOE site and purchace more of the insets for those calibers, so bookmark the site.

Face it, you are already hooked and now are being reeled in, there is only more and more molds and guns and molds ... .

[Minerat]

After seeing the picture it appears the dies are set short as Greg S says. I set the length by backing the die out till I can lower the press handle all the way down with just a case in the shell holder. The next step is to screw the die in till it just touched the case. Back off a half inch or so and then lock the die ring. Put boolit in case and lower handle all the way and start adjusting seating stem till boolit is set to what you want. You may have to raise and lower the handle a number of times to get it done. Then lock the stem. This way you know when the handle reaches the bottom the boolit is seated the same length each time.

My RCBS dies are a 3 die set so you have to re adjust to crimp.. That means that if not adjusted to seat only I risk crushing the case if my cases are not all the same length. They then look like the ones on the right of your picture. Hope this helps.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

mncampnhunt,
Welcome to the forum.

There "maybe" another issue at work here, besides everything that has been mentioned.

While the Lee Carbide die set instructions will tell you the you don't need to lube the cases during sizing, you mention...

300 brand new Star-Line cases
New cases tend to size more difficult that used brass cases...and I've found that Starline tend to be more difficult than other brands. I always lube new Starline cases before the first time I size the. Try it, you will notice a huge difference.

Now to the problem of cases buckling.

500ct Lazer-Cast SWC (Keith style) but they say .431
The same problem with difficult sizing could also cause difficulty in seating,,,maybe enough so, that a case could buckle. Add to that your over-size boolit (which is usually a good thing) going into a case that was sized for a .429 jacketed bullet. When boolits are cast/sized/lubed by us at home, the driving bands probably end up with some lube, which would aid in seating into a super-clean undersized case, But a Commercial cast bullet with the harder commercial lube probably has little or NO lube residue on the bottom driving band, which could cause even more friction during seating...and may cause sporadic case buckling.

So maybe try a little lube on the inside of the case (not down in the case, just a tiny bit on the edge of the casemouth) as well as on the cast bullet's bottom driving band. and I mean a little, I'm talking a lightest residue of lube...like a fingerprint's worth.
Good Luck.


PS, once brass has been fired once, there is enough "stuff" inside the case, even tumbled clean cases, that will reduce friction so this problem is non-existant (due to friction anyway).

[earlmck]

I thought about your problem a little more and think maybe I have it figured. Your #3 die is either faulty or is a seat/crimp die that should go with a 3-die set. What you want die 3 to do is just set the boolit to the correct depth with no crimping whatsoever so the crimp from die 4 will roll the case into the crimp groove. What is happening is die 3 is crimping your case before you have got to the seat depth, and with your 4-die set you don't want any crimping from die 3.

You can probably back die 3 out far enough and screw the seat stem down far enough that no crimping will occur with die 3 but it will still put the boolit at the correct depth. If you can't then die 3 is faulty.

[arlon]

If you're buckling 44 mag cases like that you are waaaay overcrimping. Or missing the crimp groove. The buckling has nothing to do with the case expansion-- it is totally a crimp thing.

On the brighter side, if it will chamber go ahead and shoot it. You may salvage some brass.

What he said. That crimp die needs to be backed out until the problem goes away.

[rintinglen]

My guess is that you have adjusted the depth of seating by lowering the die, not the seating stem, thereby hitting the crimp step long before you want to. Back off the seating die until only half of the case fits in the seating die with the ram all the way up. Then loosen the lock nut and run the seating stem down and insert a piece of brass with a boolit in it. Raise the ram and adjust the stem Until the boolit is seated to the correct depth WITHOUT any crimp whatsoever. Once you have seated all your boolits, then go back and crimp your cases.

[shooter bob]

If you have the lee 44 special/44 mag dies the bullet seating die is set too deep.The lee directions say screw in bullet seating die to touch the shell holder then turn the die out 3 THREE full turns and a EXTRA 1 3/4 extra turns. So that is 4 and 3 quarter turns out. The expanding die is also an extra 1 3/4 extra turns . That little tid bit is on the lee instructions but VERY easy to miss.Hope this helps.If you need more info pm me

[reddog81]

My initial reaction was that it's probably too much crimp. After looking at the picture in post #6 it looks like WAY TOO much crimp.

You should be able to seat and crimp in one step, assuming everything is setup correctly. Every revolver bullet with a crimp groove is designed so that you crimp the brass inward into the groove as you making the last tenth an inch of travel(approximately) in the seating die. Seating and crimping in separate steps is unnecessary. I've reloaded every popular revolver round and never use a separate crimping die.

You're supposed to crimp into the crimp groove, not into the lead. When you try and smash the brass into the lead, the case will buckle. If the brass varies too much in length this will cause problems because the amount and placement of the crimp will be inconsistent. That might be a problem here if some rounds are coming out OK and others are buckling.

[country gent]

A little trick tat is helpful. Make a .030 or .045 shim for under the seat crimp die. Set die to proper crimp with out shim. Then when seating bullets add shim under it with out resetting the lock ring. This allows depth to be set and bullet seated. then remove shim and raise the seating stem to crimp. You can make this shim from shim stock or even banding.

For a .432 dia bullet I would look for an expander around .429. .002 is a lot of press on this size dia.

[Minerat]

A little trick tat is helpful. Make a .030 or .045 shim for under the seat crimp die. Set die to proper crimp with out shim. Then when seating bullets add shim under it with out resetting the lock ring. This allows depth to be set and bullet seated. then remove shim and raise the seating stem to crimp. You can make this shim from shim stock or even banding.

For a .432 dia bullet I would look for an expander around .429. .002 is a lot of press on this size dia.

My RCBS 44 dies came with a spacer ring for use when going from 44spcl to mag. It's only been 33 years since I started loading with them and now you tell me I could have saved time by using it for this. Wish you had told me sooner. :kidding:. GREAT TIP. Thank you.

[JimB..]

FWIW I agree with the guys saying that the seating die body is screwed down too far.

Unscrew it a bunch, run an empty expanded case up into the die without a bullet, the brass should not touch the die, now screw the die body down until you just feel it touch the brass.

If you want to seat and crimp in one step then continue to adjust the die body to get the crimp you want and then start to work on seating depth by adjusting the seating stem. I generally seat and crimp in one operation when roll crimping into a groove.

If you want to seat in one operation and crimp in another then unscrew the #3 die body enough that it doesn’t crimp and then set the seating depth. Adjust die #4 to crimp.

I don’t disagree with the suggestions to replace the expander to optimize performance, but that’s not likely to fix the immediate problem imho.

Oh, and I crushed a bunch of 45-70 brass when I first started, it happens.

[mncampnhunt]

The NOE brand expander plug (.429 x .433) came already. I prepped some cases and ran them with the new expander and while I haven't charged any case the .431 bullets now slip partially into the case (to the bottom of the lube) and that is with less of a flare than I had put on some of the previous batch. Pushed in one as a test and was very happy to see that it didn't take strong arming the press. Didn't have time to throw powder charges and finish these yet - but so far so good.

Just "rented" a 11 degree forcing cone reamer and ordered a BTB firelapping "kit". I'm hoping the reamer will take out some of the choke at the threads and the firelapping can do the rest.

While I was ordering from BTB - I have 100 of there 300gr WFN-GC coming - but those will be a while before I'm ready to load them. Will have to choose a powder for this "hunting load". Only have Unique now. Guessing H110, N110 or possibly 2400 - would like to target 1100fps for this load. Accuracy will be the objective - love to here suggestions - seems H110 is the gold standard for heavy 44mag loads.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I agree with the many that your seating die (which can also crimp) is set way too low. Back the seating die out until you can run an empty (no bullet) case into the die without crimping the empty case, that is the starting point for the seating die BODY, then work on seating a bullet using the seating die BULLET SEATING STEM, not the die body. Once you have the bullet seated properly you can then crimp in a separate crimp die or work the seating stem and die body a little at a time until the bullet is seated just as the case is crimped. The seating die is NOT screwed in to touch the shellholder is it contains a crimping shoulder. Many seating dies, pistol and rifle, contain a crimping shoulder in the seating die. Crimp can be adjusted using empty cases , then carefully adjusting seating depth so full seating occurs as the case is crimped. Seating and crimping in one stroke is done with a properly adjusted seating die. I , like reddog81, seat and crimp most revolver and rifle cartridges like the 30-30, 45-70 and 32 special in a single stroke.

[kobeinu]

BTB owner said load it up. I don't recommend this load but he did and I tweeked to my rifle and comfort level...21.7gn of H110. I have incredible accuracy and animals plant themselves on the spot with those 300gn WFN. They are incredible. And it shakes the backboard and berm during load development!!!!

[reddog81]

The NOE brand expander plug (.429 x .433) came already. I prepped some cases and ran them with the new expander and while I haven't charged any case the .431 bullets now slip partially into the case (to the bottom of the lube) and that is with less of a flare than I had put on some of the previous batch. Pushed in one as a test and was very happy to see that it didn't take strong arming the press. Didn't have time to throw powder charges and finish these yet - but so far so good.

Just "rented" a 11 degree forcing cone reamer and ordered a BTB firelapping "kit". I'm hoping the reamer will take out some of the choke at the threads and the firelapping can do the rest.

While I was ordering from BTB - I have 100 of there 300gr WFN-GC coming - but those will be a while before I'm ready to load them. Will have to choose a powder for this "hunting load". Only have Unique now. Guessing H110, N110 or possibly 2400 - would like to target 1100fps for this load. Accuracy will be the objective - love to here suggestions - seems H110 is the gold standard for heavy 44mag loads.

I'd worry seating the bullets correctly and getting the kinks worked out of the reloading process before going off the deep end and reaming the forcing cone, fire-lapping the bore and loading up the hottest load you can find.

[Rodfac]

My guess is that you have adjusted the depth of seating by lowering the die, not the seating stem, thereby hitting the crimp step long before you want to. Back off the seating die until only half of the case fits in the seating die with the ram all the way up. Then loosen the lock nut and run the seating stem down and insert a piece of brass with a boolit in it. Raise the ram and adjust the stem Until the boolit is seated to the correct depth WITHOUT any crimp whatsoever. Once you have seated all your boolits, then go back and crimp your cases. Yep, good advice here. Later, when you have a good handle on loading, you can seat and crimp in the same operation and get superb results. Done right, it saves a step and still produces sub-1-1/2" grouping from a good gun. Rod