Chronographed Loads

[northmn]

There was a discussion on another forum about the tendency for ML's to show diminishing returns when heavy loaded. One individual posted a set of published data that got me curious so I started chronographing. I am posting my results. Some information on method. The charges were measured, but the measure was calibrated against a powder scale such that the loads are very close, within 2-3 grains of what was listed. Where comparisons were made the shots were alternated. I swabed between shots to try to duplicate a clean barrel for hunting. These are deer loads with one exception.

40cal
42" Barrel
1/16" vent Flintlock
1-48" twist
Ave Velocities:
30Goex 1462
30 Grafs 1375
Two shots 60 grs Goex 2007 & 1911
40 to me is a small game rifle as I have bigger guns

45 Cal (one that started discussion)
32" barrel (lightweight rifle I built for my wife)
1-48 twist
451 RB
015 patch Yellow stuff factory lube
1/16 vent flintlock
70 Grains 3f GOEX 1791
90 Grains 3f GOEX 1977

50 Cal
Percussion 11 cap
490 RB
015 patch yellow lube.
36 inch barrel 1-70 twist
3f GOEX
80 grains 1860 29 fps variation
90 grains 1917 40 fps variation
Only 20 fps difference between high 80 grain vel and low 90 grain vel

54
42 " barrel
Flintlock 1/16 vent
530 RB
Duck patching Crisco lube
90 Grains 3f GOEX 1800 fps (Some like 3f in their 54's)
120 Grains 2f GOEX 1821 fps (load I have been using)
80 Grains 3f GOEX 1683 fps (one shot)

12 GA Smoothbore
Flintlock .070 vent
30" barrel
690 RB (490 grs)
Duck Patching
Crisco lube
This gun was choked. It was full and has been relieved somewhat, the choke now is at ??????? Patching was not as tight as some.
100 gr 2f GOEX 1070 fps.
This shot gun is being made as a lightweight fowler and weighs at most 7lbs. This load hurt off a bench (it kicked like h--l). Tested it more to check fit of gun. It did kick straight back.

There's the data so far. I invite other tests. As most of you know that have used a chronograph to test loads, all sorts of things can play in. Two guns may be alike or may differ. Published data and what you get are often two different animals.

Northmn

[missionary5155]

Good Morning At what distance (about) did you have your Chrono set up ? I wanted to test some FF loads in a 12 guage and was advised that 10 feet was to close so I chose not to do so.

[northmn]

About 15 feet. The Chrony had a remote reader permitting me to read off the bench. I placed two 1/4 inch angle irons in front of the chronograph for protection they are set for bullet deflection with the V pointing at me. I have not had any trouble with the chronograph.

North MN

[missionary5155]

Thanks for doing all the work ! I am still on the learning curve with Black Powder. I have enjoyed it in my worn out 43 spanish Roller and round ball in 12 Guage. I started muzzle loading after the Army (71-74) with a .45 Kit rifle. I do most my muzzle hunting with a Navy Arms zouave .58 using RB But really do more recurve bow hunting when I get the chance.
I am going to have to play with my .58 and the chrono.
Thanks again!

[Larry Gibson]

TC Black Mountain Magnum
.50 cal / 26" barrel / 1-28" twist
All velocities with Oehler M35P with center screen 15' from muzzle.

Lee RB/lead
.018 patch
80 grV (volume) 777 ffg
1785 fps
3" group at 100 yards
Note; with this fast twist 90 grV gives 1891 fps and 16" goups at 100 yards

Lee 330 REAL/pellet lead
Beeswax/olive oil lube
90 grV 777 ffg
wonderwad under bullet
1591 fps

TC Maxi-Ball
360 gr/1-16 alloy
beeswax/olive oil lube
80 grV 777 fffg (yes that's 3 fs)
1510 fps
will put 5 shots out of clean barrel without cleaning between shots into 2-2.5" at 100 yards. Very deadly on deer/bear/elk and obviously my big game hunting load.

Following are with same TC Maxi-Ball as above;

Pyrodex RS
100 grV
1300 fps

ClearShot
125 grV
1375 fps

Goex cartridge BP
120 grV
1464 fps

Dupont fffg (I still have 6 lbs left!)
120 grV
1510 fps

Saboted bullet loads;

Hornady .44 cal 240 gr XTP
Knight sabot
3 Pyrodex pellets
2160 fps

Hornady .44 cal 300 gr XTP
Knight sabot
2 pellots Pyrodex (100 gr)
1650 fps

Hornady .45 cal 300 gr XTP
3 pellets Pyrodex (150 gr)
1995 fps

RCBS 45-250-SWC / WWs
Knight breack away sabot
100 grV Pyrodex "P"
1550 fps

Years ago I chronographed 5 shots out of an Italian made percusion Pensylvania long rifle. Twist is 1-48". Load was a lead RB with .15 patch over 90 gr of Dupont fffg. Velocity averaged 1963 fps over the Oehler M10 chronograph with skyscreens. I still have this rifle and killed several deer and one spike elk with it using the above load.

Larry Gibson

[northmn]

Larry, are your BP substitute loads actual weight or equivalent, as in a BP measure set at 100 grains when you state 100 grains?

Northmn

[northmn]

I did another test and opened my touch hole on my 54 flinter from .0625 to .070 as some recommended. The ave velocitys were:

.070 1797
.0625 1821 as printed.

Really not much difference and any velocity drop could be attributed to several factors. The .070 touch hole is said to be more reliable. Its a #50 wire gauge drill bit.

Northmn

[waksupi]

I'm kinda surprised changing the vent diameter didn't show more velocity divergence. And, I suspect just loading it with different compression could easily make up for the variation, as you say. Lots of variables. I know some guys who make thiers intentionally self priming. I never cared for that, as if you forget to close the pan, you can push out a large amount of your load. Plus, I never cared for the idea of having the weapon primed while stuffing things down the barrel.

[northmn]

I have heard of "self priming" vents and agree with all you say about them. My replica Brown Bess had a larger touch hole which tended to do that, but not really a full prime. I put a liner in for a person that had a inexpensive 45 flintlock. He tried about 25 grains of powder and it all vented out the touchhole (which was rather large) instead of moving the ball. I may try opening my 40 to see if there is a difference, as I suspect a larger bore may show less variation than a smaller bore. I use the 40 for small game anyway. The #50 drill bit is between a 1/16" and 5/16" inch bit and is far from self priming. Some used to go 3/32 or so.

Northmn

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, are your BP substitute loads actual weight or equivalent, as in a BP measure set at 100 grains when you state 100 grains?

Northmn

They are "equivelent". That is why they are posted as "grV" The "V" being "volume". Setting the measure at 100 gives 100 gr of BP (most often doesn't but it is close and it is the method commonly used) and gives 100 grV of substitute powder.

Larry Gibson

[northmn]

As I use flintlocks I do not use "substitute" powders as they do not ignite very well. Another question Larry, I assume the Pennsylvania rifle you used was a 50? The slug loads listed are substantial but should work excellently.

DP

[Larry Gibson]

northman

My bad, I forgot to mention the Pennsylvania rifle was a .45 and I used a .440 RB.

Larry Gibson

[northmn]

Most consider the 440 RB a little light for deer, let alone elk. Yet you made meat with it. Shows huntings still 80% shooter and 20% caliber.

Northmn

[Larry Gibson]

Most consider the 440 RB a little light for deer, let alone elk. Yet you made meat with it. Shows huntings still 80% shooter and 20% caliber.

Northmn

Yup, that was in my younger, dumber days before I "knew better" from all the experts advice.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Here's a picture of this load;

TC Maxi-Ball
360 gr/1-16 alloy
beeswax/olive oil lube
80 grV 777 fffg (yes that's 3 fs)
1510 fps
will put 5 shots out of clean barrel without cleaning between shots into 2-2.5" at 100 yards. Very deadly on deer/bear/elk and obviously my big game hunting load.

There's 6 shots there, first from the loaded rifle and then the 5 speed loaded shots. All without cleaning or wiping between shots.

Larry Gibson

[tn gun runner]

Most consider the 440 RB a little light for deer, let alone elk. Yet you made meat with it. Shows huntings still 80% shooter and 20% caliber.

Northmn
I built this gun in 92 and just sighted and workup loads for the 1st time Sat . I'm using 110 gr of goex FF . I was wondering if ever test the different speed between 110 FF and 110 FFF , both goex black powder .

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z195/dukeboy51/flint.jpg

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z195/dukeboy51/flintlock.jpg

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z195/dukeboy51/50calflint.jpg

[northmn]

As to differences in velocitites between 110 grains of 2f and 3f, as a swag I would say that the 2f load at 110grains would be equivalent to the 90 grain load 3f load I posted. Every rifle tends to be a little different, and loads can change them. Lately I have been leaning more towards 2f for hunting charges in the bigger bores. I noticed a smaller total spread with 2f. Also my philosophy is that at a certain point there is little use in increasing charges. If you need more punch you need a bigger bore. A 50 RB loaded at 2100 fps is listed at hitting a 1181 at 100 yds. A RB at 1900 hits at 1075 or a 106 fps difference for a 200 fps mvel. Quite often that extra 200 fps comes at the cost of accuracy and fouling. Also pressures start to raise more rapidly with 3f after a certain point. All of this is contained in my old Lyman book.

Northmn