Gunpowder Load for 38-55 ???

[August]

Can you help me with a load for the 38-55? I was able to get 34.5 grains of Goex Ctg grade below a Lyman 378674 (336 grain @ 20:1) with an .060 Walter's wad. When I chronographed the results this morning, I was disappointed to see that I was only getting 1040 f.p.s. with this load. I ran out of Marbles sight elevation before getting to the pigs (300 meters). So, after a few shots, I put the rifle away and went on to other things.

My question is: How do I get more powder into the cartridge and is it possible to get up to 1300 f.p.s. with the Lyman bullet??? The bullet is not of bore rider design and, therefore, must take up quite a bit of cartridge space -- down to the level where cannelures are often found on the 38-55, or to the extent of the expander plug.

I was using no compression with the 34.5 grain charge.

Please help me to get a hotter, black powder load for this round. Would you suggest fffg as one approach? Massive compression? How much powder?

Thanks!!!

[Southern Son]

August, first up, I dont own a 38/55 (would like to, but apparently you have to have money to buy stuff). I think that you should be able to get more powder into a 38/55 case than 34.5 grains. True, modern cartridges can't hold as much powder as the old baloon head cases, but you are running about 1/3 less than they used to (my 45/70 with a non bore riding boolit only looses about 15% over the old cases). A mate who shoots BP in his 38/55 is loading closer to 45grains of FFg, he has gone further, but he said accuracy dropped off (he did not cronograph those loads, either).

To get more powder into the case, get a drop tube. At least 2 foot long, and trickle the powder through the drop tube into the case. Using a drop tube seems to help the powder settle with less air space between the kernels of powder. If you can't get a drop tube (I made mine from a 3 foot brass tube and some brass sheets I bought from a model shop, and if I can make one, then anyone could), then try vibrating the case (some blokes talk about holding a case loaded with powder to the side of a vibratory case cleaner). I have never really seriously experimented with this, but some claim it better that drop tubing.

Next, get a powder compression plug (Buffalow arms sells them). If you have a lathe or a mate with a lathe, then make one yourself. Replace the neck expander plug in your neck expander die with the powder comression plug or get a dedicated die. You don't need to go nuts with compression (I managed to expand a case by compressing the powder too much), and to find the right amount of compression, you have got to fool around. Some people say that Swiss don't like to be compressed, others say different, I think it comes down to your rifle and loads.

The last thing you could try (and I loath to bring it up because it sometimes gets loud when people talk about it), is duplexing. A little smokeless powder under a reduced black powder main charge. It almost always burns cleaner, gives higher velocities and will make some people go off like a bucket of prawns in the sun. Some competitions (BPCR Shilouette being one) have ban duplexing, so check your rules before you take duplex loaded ammo to a competition.

On the subject of using FFFg, I have tried it in my 45/70 and I got about an extra 40fps increase over using FFg. Some people have used it and got good results, I have read others complain about increased fowling, reduced accuracy and other problems. You should just try it and see is all anyone can really tell you, every rifle wants something different.

I don't know if you will get 1300fps, but it is fun trying to get the best out of these older type rifles.

[Boz330]

August,
In my 38-55 C-Sharps 75, I'm using 2F Swiss and loading 47.5gr by weight and the Lyman 378674. This gives me about 1275. This load is compressed and I have several grease grooves out of the case. I have gotten 55grs under a Lee 250gr boolit but accuracy wasn't that good. You will need to seat the boolit out as far as practical. As SS pointed out you will need a compression die. A thinner wad will help as well. My gun will not shoot accurately with any less powder or if the boolit isn't jammed up in the rifling.
I have never tried Goex in my gun, but typically the Swiss is heavier per volume than Goes and gives more energy. In my guns it seems to burn much cleaner as well. The guys that use Goex typically use a lot of compression, .300 or more.

Bob

[Don McDowell]

There was a young feller shooting 38-55 in our relay at Alliance this past weekend. His dad said the load was 42 grs Goex 3f with that Lyman bullet, I don't recall the wad,they didn't know the fps. But long story short that young man had no problem runnin with(and out shooting several) the big guys all the way to 1000 yds, even in the pitthy wind conditions we had to contend with.

[montana_charlie]

Speaking from 'knowledge' acquired by much reading...not from experience...Swiss powder seems to work well with little, or no, compression. It appears this might be because it is so dense that compression doesn't make it work any better.

Goex, on the other hand, is said to burn cleaner when compressed by a good bit. Some say that .385" of compression is ideal although I have not gone that far, yet.
Meanwhile, compression has the added benefit of getting more propellant under the bullet.

The .45 caliber cartridge (especially in the shorter lengths) falls at the break-over point between 2F and 3F when choosing coarsness. Goex Cartridge, highly recommended for .45's by Bill Bagwell (a Goex afficionado), is sort of a cross between 2F and 3F. Therefore, anything smaller than a .45 caliber should do well with 3F.

So, a 'settled' 3F charge will probably weigh more than your current load...and compressing it will increase your fuel supply even more. If the compression also causes a more efficient burn (as claimed) then your velocity should show a decent increase.

Remember...this is 'internet expertise'. But, it sounds logical...

CM

[jjamna]

I shoot 50 grains American Pioneer (by volume) in my 38-55 felt wad and 250 gr Lee boolit.
I have had real good results at 100 and 200 yds. I do not shoot in matches. I am going to work with other powders because the AP does not give the speed other powders do.

[Jon K]

I shoot 46 grains/3F Swiss/365 gr PJ38006. I haven't had a chance to chronograph yet, but I will Monday or Tuesday and post. Should be close to same speed wwith your Lyman 335 gr.

Jon

[Boz330]

MC,
That is the same thing that I've always heard as well but in my 38-55 I'm compressing it a fair amount (don't remember how much) and it absolutely won't shoot with less. In my 40-65 I'm compressing it conciderably less. But as we know every rifle is a different critter. Even the same everything can like different combinations. Can get frustrating occasionally. Then you meet somebody that has a different twist and then you have to try that.

Bob

[twotrees]

Is a H&R and with "short" cases Winchester I can get 40 gr without trouble and compress about .2" to seat the lyman 335 out to the lands. With 45 gr I need a LOT of compression (Goex 3F) About .42 inches. A drop tube of 18 inches will get it all in IF you use once fired cases that are neck sized ONLY !!!

The furthest match she has shot was 300 Yards, but it held it's own at that range.

Good Shooting,

[John Boy]

August - maybe these targets will help you out ...

Lyman 378674 - Goex 40gr FFFg (socked) ... 100yds
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Targets/18Jun06-100y.jpg

Same Recipe - 200yds (Holes marked 'D' in the 10 ring are after elevation + wind adj's: A - B - C
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Targets/27Jun06-200y.jpg

This recipe was shot back in 2006, was 'lost' in my files :groner: and never followed up with the bullet's accuracy at 300 to 500yds.

Plan to take 50 rounds to Ridgway Range this Fall for testing on 300 to 500m steel and a few rounds at 1000yds to see if I can whack Homer, the buffalo.

[Muddy Creek Sam]

John,

What is socked. Is it Paper Patched?

Sam :-D

[John Boy]

What is socked. Is it Paper Patched?
No, Sam. Socking is taking a can of powder and pouring it into an athletic sock - closing the open end and rocking the sock back and forth for a few minutes.

Purpose: The fine grains stick in the sock, leaving a powder with a more uniform granulation. This makes for a more uniform ignition and increases the standard deviations of velocity for successive shots. Fines are powder grains that will pass through a 30 mesh sieve screen - usually being 40 mesh grains

At the powder plants, the same concept is performed using a screening unit after the powder has been ground in the wheel milll house, then the cake is broken up into grain sizes by the corning mill
Okie Dookie?

[Muddy Creek Sam]

Thanks John.

Still learning.

Sam :-D

[NickSS]

I do not shoot the lyman bullet but do shoot a 330 gr LBT slug with 38 gr of FFG GOEX. I never chronographed the load but think it is around 1100 fps. This load shoots realy well out to 500 yards which is the furthest I shot it. The 38-55 will not hold 55 gr of powder without very heavy compression using GOEX. I never tried Swiss in it as my Goex loads do all that I can do with a rifle. What you need is a highter rear sight. The Marbles tang sights are nice but short. I doubt that you will get on the 500 meter rams even with a 1300 fps load. To test this load up some bullets over smokeless the about 1350 (this is eazy with smokeless) and see if you can get on target with your stubby rear sight. I seriously doubt that you will have success.

[montana_charlie]

No, Sam. Socking is taking a can of powder and pouring it into an athletic sock - closing the open end and rocking the sock back and forth for a few minutes.

Purpose: The fine grains stick in the sock, leaving a powder with a more uniform granulation.
After doing this to two cans of powder, you have a pair of socks that are quite useful for firewalking on bitterly cold days...
CM

[August]

Well, I followed your suggestions. I got 40 grains of 2f in the case with substantial compression (@3/8 inch) and it shot well with the top-most sight click on the pigs at 300. Then, figuring some is good, more is better, I tried 44 grains of 3f (which required the same amount of compression). Both loads shot very consistently, but the 3f load fouled badly -- first powder fouling then leading!

So, I think the 3f load is too hot. I even noticed a small amount of primer flattening -- something I've never experienced with black powder before.

I think I'm gonna settle in around 40 grains and call it a 300 meter gun. Period.

BTW, I was using Shutzen 3f. Is it your experience that Shutzen is hot compared to Goex?

Thanks again for you help.

[missionary5155]

So if you still need more powder... you can recut the throat... remove more rifling so you can seat the boolit out farther (I did this to my 45-70). Or you can make a breach seater and preseat the boolit into the rifling then load the charged case with wad (my Rolling Block likes this aproach). Or you can look into a multi-diameter mold (narrow nose) and again seat the boolit out farther. You can also reduce nose diameter by chucking boolits in a drill, drill press, lathe, and carefully with a file touch them down. It really never ends.. there is always something else that can be done.

[Boz330]

August,
Try some Swiss if you can find it. I'm not familiar with the Shutzen. In my gun the 3F doesn't shoot as well. Are you using a volume measure or weighing it?
My 47gr of Swiss 2F is about 42.5 on a volume scale. I have actually gotten 55gr in a 38-55 case with a 250gr boolit but it was compressed about a half inch.
The common belief with Swiss is that it doesn't like compression but both of my guns like a fair amount of compression. I'm getting 64gr of 2FS in my 40-65 with a 415gr boolit. I haven't tried more yet but it has gotten better with each increase of weight. I'm getting 2MOA at distance which is about as good as I can hold.

Bob