RCBS 38-150-swc in 357 lever action

[JNG3]

I tried to do a search and came up with some answers but here's my question-

Carbine is a Henry Big Boy Steel .357mag. Carbine is accurate and a wonderful shooter with various jacketed 38spl and 357mag jacketed factory loads. I've single loaded and shot a load that I use in my 38spl snubnose as well. It's a 150gr button nose wadcutter cast from 1-20 in 38spl brass with a stout charge of bullseye. No leading at all. Obviously this will not feed correctly from the magazine, hence the single loading. The only mold I have that is appropriate for the Henry would be a RCBS 38-150-swc. It is a plain base bullet, not the gas check version. I have on hand various powders that are appropriate for a 357mag to try. Unique, Bullseye, 2400, and a small amount of Accurate #9. I will also be using 357mag brass. Here's my problem. The alloys I have on hand are pure lead, 1-20, and Lyman #2. The lube I have is White Label 50/50. I would like to see 1550 to 1650 fps. Assuming the bullets are sized correctly for the barrel and fit is good, Can I push this bullet using #2 alloy and 50/50 lube to 1600ish fps without severe leading? Would I be better off buying another mold that uses a gas check?

[lightman]

As many others have stated, fit is more important than hardness. But the 1 in 20 would probably work and the Lyman #2 would work for sure. Since the SWC bullet probably will not feed you might consider a GC mold in another style.

[brewer12345]

It should be with a try and it might even feed. Those velocities suggest #2 alloy to me in plain base. So I would cast some up, size them, and load up a dummy round to see if it will feed. Some levers are pretty forgiving in what they will handle. Worse comes to worst you have some finished boolits for other uses and know you need to buy a rnfp gas checked mold.

[Larry Gibson]

You can approach or even achieve 1550 to 1650 fps with 2400 and #9 powders using the #2 alloy and the 50/50 lube. However, it is probable that accuracy will be wanting especially compared to the jacketed bullets accuracy. For that level of velocity and accuracy a GC'd bullet will prove much more satisfactory.

[jcren]

Just an observation from my 45 acp carbine, if you are looking for 1500 fps, start with a load that is estimated around 1300 in a pistol with a slowish powder. Try not to worry too much about pushing max velocity, find a good accurate load first. I wasted a lot of lead and powder trying to find an accurate 1300 + 230 grain load thinking I needed more power to hunt with it. By chance I shot a 200 pound hog at 75 yards with my accurate "light" load of 200 grain rf at 1000. Dropped him like a rock and both broadside hits exited.

[JNG3]

Made 3 dummy cartridges with the RCBS 38-150-swc. While the cartridge overall length exceeded the standard 1.590", they fed just fine. Now to conquer my crimp problems with this bullet before I load any live cartridges.

[mnewcomb59]

I have found SWC to be inaccurate compared to RNFP, especially at 100 yards or further in 357 mag. However, you will definitely get usable accuracy with those powders and your hard alloy. I would be surprised if any load you threw together would shoot more than 5" at 100 yards. You probably won't have any leading unless you have a rough bore or a constriction. 1600 fps in a 357 rifle is really loafing along at 23-26k psi with any powder in the 2400 burn range or slower. Your lead is definitely hard enough to bite the riflings and not skid. Even if your lead is too hard to obturate your lube groove, 50-50 will flow under acceleration and will lube your bore even if your lube groove doesn't disappear. As long as your bullet is large enough you will work up a load with almost no effort.

For your velocity goal, you will be well under max loads. 13.5 of 2400 is where I would start. That charge is very accurate in rifles for many people. 13.5 gr with a 158 is about as low as I care to run that powder and that charge meets or exceeds your targeted velocity. I remember with some of my very first cast bullets and alox lube that 13.5 gr 2400 gave me 5 shots in about .75" at 75 yards in the rifle. Back then I had a scout scope mounted.

RNFP always shoot better for me though. In fact, in a test between the lee gas check SWC vs the 158-RF at 2000 fps, the plain base held 1.5" at 50 yards vs 2.5" for the gas check SWC.

When the bullet instantly torques up to 130,000 RPM, SWC noses slump off center because they are not supported by the rifling. RNFP noses also slump back, but the ogive is supported by the rifling and the nose mostly stays centered.

Also the group size difference comes a little bit from BC. The SWC has a .11 BC vs .16 with an ogive. Any little breeze makes these pistol caliber bullets blow around, but .11 BC is just terrible for wind and down range energy retention.

My slow twist Rossi shoots the Brian Pearce load of Lil' Gun really nice. 2000 fps with a plain base 158 Lee will put 10 shots in 3 inches at 100 yards when the gas check SWC won't do any better than 5" after extensive load development.

The accuracy advantage of RNFP vs SWC holds up with all alloys I have tested from 10-20 BHN. I even tried .358, .359 and .360 sizes for each bullet. I tried alox, Beeswax Alox Caranuba (BAC) and powder coat. The most accurate SWC load with hard lead and powder coat still shot worse than it's least preferred plain base load at .358 and air cooled range scrap with BAC. You heard that right. Plain base air cooled range scrap w/ traditional lube at 2k fps still outshoots a hard gas checked powder coated SWC at 2k fps. We are talking 4 MOA vs 5 MOA. With the plain base load it likes, the difference is 3 MOA vs 5 MOA. A lot of this is the twist rate allowing me to push the plain base this hard, but it goes to show how unsupported noses slump and ruin accuracy.

For a comparison with the plain base RNFP, here is a gas checked RNFP. The gas check Ranch Dog 135-RF will put 10 into less than 2" at 100 yards at 2100 fps. The Lee 125-RF with the same charge of 2400 as the Ranch Dog will keep 2-3MOA, hardly any accuracy difference from the Ranch Dog bullet. I just am not a huge fan of the 125-rf outside of small game use because the meplat is too small for reliable straight line penetration. In moderate alloys it mushrooms too much to fully penetrate deer, or if it is hard it tends to act like a rn and tumble and not penetrate in a straight line.

I get 2 MOA with gc rnfp vs. 3 MOA plain base rnfp vs. 5 MOA gas check SWC. These are all full power 2000-2200 fps loads. It was MUCH easier to find accuracy loads down low except again the SWC. I couldn't find a load over 2 MOA at 1600 fps with any RNFP and powder I tried.



All my accuracy testing in this rifle for the past few years is with a 3 moa red dot centered on a paper plate. I could imagine shaving an inch off of all these groups with some magnification and shooting 5 instead of 10. 10 shots is almost testing the shooter more than the equipment.

[Petrol & Powder]

I hate gas checks but that's a personal thing.
I use the RCBS 38-150 SWC in several revolvers and it's a great bullet. I see no reason to think it wouldn't work in a lever action rifle.
With the RCBS 38-150, Lyman #2 alloy and White Label 50/50 lube you should be able to find a decent load that will perform without leading the bore. However, I'm not certain you'll get all the way the 1650 fps without leading.
I agree with attempting to find an accurate load first and then pursue velocity. I think you'll find that you don't really "need that speed".

If NRA 50/50 will not handle the velocities you're working with, it would be cheaper (and simpler) to try another lube. I use both BAC and 50/50 and frankly, BAC does it all. The 50/50 works a bit better with WC loads.

Before you go to the expense of a gas check mold and the trouble associated with gas checks, I would recommend that you try something in the 1300 fps range with your existing components. You may be surprised.

[Outpost75]

Firing full-charge .357 Magnum cast loads in a 20" carbine velocity will certainly exceed the threshold where good accuracy and freedom from leading can be expected with plainbased bullets, regardless of their hardness or alloy used.

Depending upon powder type, it is normal to gain 150-250 fps firing the same .357 ammunition in a carbine versus a revolver.

Plainbased bullets of 8-10 BHN cast of alloys similar to 1:30 or 1:20 give excellent results in blackpowder cartridges such as the .32-20, 38-40 and .44-40 up to about 1000-1100 fps in a 6" or 7-1/2" revolver or 1300-1400 fps in a carbine. They also perform well when loaded down somewhat less than a full-charge load in the .357 and .44 Magnums.

If accuracy is most important to you, just how important is getting 1600 fps, if the load is less accurate and leads, or forces you to put on gaschecks?

I would fully expect you could get all the accuracy and game performance you seek with starting level loads in the .357 Magnum, or in .38 Special +P loads, which all top out at about 1300-1400 fps in the rifle and will give 1000+fps in the revolver. This is what I do with my revolver-lever rifle combos and I can assure you that the deer cannot tell the difference.

If wanting loads primarily for rifle use only, with only occasional intermittent handgun use required, as in a hunting situation, the elegant and simple solution is to fill the .357 Magnum or .44 Magnum case to capacity with H- or IMR4198 or RL7, so that the charge is compressed about 1/8" by the seated bullet, in EXACTLY the same way black powder is loaded in the .44-40 and similar cartridges. This combination gives full-charge black powder rifle ballistics, about 1350-1400 fps and about 1050 fps in a revolver, using a standard-weight bullet for the caliber. In revolvers there will be some burned powder, but the loads will be accurate and shoot well. Most of all they offer field interchangibility of the ammunition to be used in both rifle and revolver.

It has also been my experience that most lever-actions do not feed SWC bullets well, and I think that you would be better served with an ogival nosed "Cowboy" bullet having a large meplat, cast no harder than 1:20 tin-lead. 50-50 plumber's lead ad wheelweights with about 1% tin added to improve fill-out is a good alloy. Any of the 158-160 grain Cowboy slugs perform well on game when cast softer. I use Lee Liquid Alox with these loads or 1:4 ATF and beeswax.