Ballard #2

[marlinman93]

Our monthly collector gun show was today, and the theme was "Interesting Rimfires". Since the Ballard #2 had the reversible firing pin to shoot some calibers in RF and CF, I did a display of my #2 Marlin Ballard rifles.

All various caliber #2, and some with special features:

https://i.imgur.com/ByHX7o8l.jpg

Top is a #2 in .38 Long with set triggers, and vernier tang sight. Combination front sight. Bottom is another in .44 Long with full length scope in Malcolm mounts.:

https://i.imgur.com/yfZSDpFl.jpg

Center is a #2 in .32 Long with standard features. Early JM Marlin ring lever, and Gallery midrange tang sight:

https://i.imgur.com/wmgpilil.jpg

Top #2 in .32-20 with special order presentation grade, checkered wood, with cheekpiece, and shotgun buttplate. Rare longrange gallery tang sight, and globe front sight.
Below #2 in .32 Long with numerous special order features. Nickeled, pistol gripped receiver, and loop lever. Rosewood stocks, with cheekpiece, Swiss buttplate, checkering, horn tip, 1/2 octagon barrel. Midrange vernier tang sight, and combination front sight.

https://i.imgur.com/fCtqgNYl.jpg

Yes, I shoot them all. No closet queens here.

[pull the trigger]

Beautiful sir. Thanks for sharing.

[M.A.D]

Very nice

[OlDeuce]

Our monthly collector gun show was today, and the theme was "Interesting Rimfires". Since the Ballard #2 had the reversible firing pin to shoot some calibers in RF and CF, I did a display of my #2 Marlin Ballard rifles.

All various caliber #2, and some with special features:

https://i.imgur.com/ByHX7o8l.jpg

Top is a #2 in .38 Long with set triggers, and vernier tang sight. Combination front sight. Bottom is another in .44 Long with full length scope in Malcolm mounts.:

https://i.imgur.com/yfZSDpFl.jpg

Center is a #2 in .32 Long with standard features. Early JM Marlin ring lever, and Gallery midrange tang sight:

https://i.imgur.com/wmgpilil.jpg

Top #2 in .32-20 with special order presentation grade, checkered wood, with cheekpiece, and shotgun buttplate. Rare longrange gallery tang sight, and globe front sight.
Below #2 in .32 Long with numerous special order features. Nickeled, pistol gripped receiver, and loop lever. Rosewood stocks, with cheekpiece, Swiss buttplate, checkering, horn tip, 1/2 octagon barrel. Midrange vernier tang sight, and combination front sight.

https://i.imgur.com/fCtqgNYl.jpg

Yes, I shoot them all. No closet queens here.

All I can say is WoW what a collection !!! Ol Deuce

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Thank you for the photos of this group of Ballards ! They are a joy to carry about the woods and river bottoms.
Mike in Peru

[Green Frog]

Those two pistol grip #2s are a revelation to me. I didn't know such a thing existed! Are the receivers on them cast, like the rest of the #2s, or are they forged? Where did the DST # 2 come in the production of Marlin-built Ballards? I've seen modern made "#2" Ballards with DSTs, but not originals. Finally, how rare are the ring levers like the one on your middle example? I've been looking for one for several years now and only found one for sale on flea Bay while I have seen only a very few on guns being displayed or for sale.

I've read and reread the big three Ballard books, Dutcher, Layman, and Wolff, as well as about everything else I can lay my hands on, but you, my friend continue to school me every time you post. Wish we lived closer so I could actually see your collection in person rather than just virtually.

Regards,
Froggie

[marlinman93]

Those two pistol grip #2s are a revelation to me. I didn't know such a thing existed! Are the receivers on them cast, like the rest of the #2s, or are they forged? Where did the DST # 2 come in the production of Marlin-built Ballards? I've seen modern made "#2" Ballards with DSTs, but not originals. Finally, how rare are the ring levers like the one on your middle example? I've been looking for one for several years now and only found one for sale on flea Bay while I have seen only a very few on guns being displayed or for sale.

I've read and reread the big three Ballard books, Dutcher, Layman, and Wolff, as well as about everything else I can lay my hands on, but you, my friend continue to school me every time you post. Wish we lived closer so I could actually see your collection in person rather than just virtually.

Regards,
Froggie

Charlie,
The scoped #2 is also a ring lever. The ring levers appear on all early #2 Ballards, and they will have the JM Marlin marking, vs. Marlin Firearms Co. marking. I somehow don't own but one typical MFACo. "S" lever #2 presently. I have owned numerous, and the "S" lever is more commonly found since it started in late JM Marlin production, and continued to the end.
Yes the pistol gripped #2 are also cast frames, and pistol gripped #2's are extremely rare!
I've owned three #2 Ballards with DST breech blocks. They run throughout production of both JM Marlin and later MFACo. marked Ballards, but were a special order option. An unique feature of any DST #2 cast action is they do not have the reversible firing pin. Instead they are centerfire only, as Marlin did not build the flat firing pins in a double set trigger breech block.
Wish we lived closer too Charlie! But if you ever make it to Oregon, I'd enjoy having you stop by for a visit and to show you my collection!

[Green Frog]

:bigsmyl2:

[pull the trigger]

Maybe we could get a carpool going?

[Green Frog]

What we really need is a friend with a nice Lear Jet available! :wink:

Froggie

[GARD72977]

I would like to know more about the 32 long chamber. I have seen guns for sale in this caliber but thought they were rimfire. I would be a lot more intrested in a 32 long centerfire.

[Green Frog]

I can answer that for you, GARD72977. There was a CF version of the 32s, it came in short, long, and extra long, and the first two may be nicely substituted with the 32 short and long Colt pistol cartridges. That’s why you see so many Ballard #2s in 32 with reversible firing pins.

Froggie

[marlinman93]

Yes, the .32 variations were available in RF or CF, so if you see one it could be either, unless the seller specifies which. The Ballard being the easiest to convert, since it was designed to reverse the firing pin quickly! Others can be converted by talented hobbyists, or gunsmiths with some work. Bores vary in size from as small as .308" on some Colt handguns, to as large as .317" on some rifles. Just depends on the maker. Case lengths on various .32 Long cartridges can also vary a lot! I've got cartridges that are the same OAL loaded, but case lengths that are .1" different! The newer ammo seems to have forgotten these were heeled bullets originally, as most newer post WWII ammo uses the smaller .309" bullets that aren't heeled.
I believe the .32 Extra Long may have only been CF, but not positive. Interestingly, the .327 Federal is almost identical case dimensions to the old .32 Extra Long.

[marlinman93]

Here's a comparison. .32 Long RF on left. Old .32 Long CF center. And .newer .32 Long CF on right. You can see the two left and center are heeled bullets of the larger diameter. But the 60's Cannuck on the right is not a heeled bullet, and bounces down most original bores. I had a bunch of the Cannuck in .32 Long RF, but sold it, since I don't need RF ammo for my #2's.

https://i.imgur.com/kNWtEdSl.jpg

[kootne]

I believe the .32 Extra Long may have only been CF, but not positive. Interestingly, the .327 Federal is almost identical case dimensions to the old .32 Extra Long.

.32 extra long rf shells were made, there was a box full on Gunbroker not long ago.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/744263031

I have a #1-1/2 Remington with a ex. long chamber, as usual it is just marked 32

p.s. nice to see the Ballards and that they are being shot.

[marlinman93]

Thanks kootne! Makes sense that along with the short, and long in RF that they'd make the Extra Long. Just hadn't seen any previously.

[Hooker53]

That is a grand collection and thank you for sharing. I have yet the honor of owning a Mod #2 it I look a couple times a week. Lol.

Hooker53

[marlinman93]

Thanks Hooker53!

[toot]

i have a BALLARD in 38/55 BALLARD with a BALLARD reloading tool. my gun has the reversible firing pin for rim fire. my question is what would the rim fire cartridge be for this gun in this caliber?

[marlinman93]

i have a BALLARD in 38/55 BALLARD with a BALLARD reloading tool. my gun has the reversible firing pin for rim fire. my question is what would the rim fire cartridge be for this gun in this caliber?

It wouldn't be for that cartridge, and your gun is typical of many Ballard #2 cast actions that some uneducated gun tinkerer put a .38-55 barrel on. Most likely you'll find that your Ballard has a 3 line rollstamp on the left side of the receiver. If it is a 3 line, it's a cast receiver and Ballard didn't offer those in .38-55. If it's a 2 line, then it might be a reversible dual firing pin breech block was fitted to a forged 2 line receiver.
If your gun is the 3 line cast action you should be very careful with loads, and keep them down to moderate levels. These cast actions weren't meant to hold higher pressures, and can crack or come apart in calibers like .38-55 if loads get above mid range levels.

Which loading tool is with your Ballard? Is it a Ballard tool, or old Ideal, Marlin, etc.

[toot]

marlinman93, i checked the gun. on the left side in 3 lines it is stamped-MARLIN FIREARMS Co. NEW HAVEN Ct. PATENTED. FEBRUARY. 9. 1875. BALLARD'S PATENT. NOV.5.1861. SERIAL #304XX. the two loading tools that I have are marked, IDEAL MF'G Co. NEW HAVEN, Ct. U.S.A. 38-55. M. PAT FEB 11 &DEC 23-84. i shoot 200 grain cast heads in it with TRAIL BOSS powder, I think 6 grs. of powder with no filler. thank you for the info.PS. why are the loading tools marked 38-55 M for MARILN and not W for WINCHESTER, is there a difference in the two?

[marlinman93]

marlinman93, i checked the gun. on the left side in 3 lines it is stamped-MARLIN FIREARMS Co. NEW HAVEN Ct. PATENTED. FEBRUARY. 9. 1875. BALLARD'S PATENT. NOV.5.1861. SERIAL #304XX. the two loading tools that I have are marked, IDEAL MF'G Co. NEW HAVEN, Ct. U.S.A. 38-55. M. PAT FEB 11 &DEC 23-84. i shoot 200 grain cast heads in it with TRAIL BOSS powder, I think 6 grs. of powder with no filler. thank you for the info.PS. why are the loading tools marked 38-55 M for MARILN and not W for WINCHESTER, is there a difference in the two?

Your gun is most likely a cast frame Ballard, so low level loads are a must to keeping it together in the .38-55 caliber.
The Ideal tool is indeed marked correct, since Marlin was the first to introduce the .38-55 in their Ballard rifles. There is no .38-55 Win. caliber, although you aren't alone in mistakenly believing the .38-55 is a Winchester cartridge. The original cartridge that both the .38-55 Ballard and .32-40 Ballard cartridges were based on was the .38-50 Ballard cartridge. Both .38-55 and .32-40 were offered in the Ballard before Winchester even had a gun capable of handling those cartridges!
Over the many decades of production, Winchester marked their ammo .38-55M and .32-40M at first, as they didn't want to mark Marlin on their brass. Then later they simply began marking their ammo with WIN after the caliber. So today many people assume these two great cartridges were Winchester, when they are really Marlin.
Even my old Hepburn Match B in .32-40 Ballard has the barrel marked ".32-40 B&M" for the Ballard and Marlin connection.

[toot]

marlinman93, thank you for that information on my gun and loading tool's, BTW. if i sold the extra loading tool what should i ask for it ?. and did they come with the gun or did it have to be purchased separate. i am placing the info you posted to my inquiry with my gun for reference. are these cast frame guns safe to shoot factory 38/55's in? again thank's.

[marlinman93]

No, they should not be fired with factory ammo in .38-55 with a cast frame. Marlin only put pistol caliber chamberings in the cast #2 actions. Calibers were mostly .32 Long and .38 Long, but some were also made in .44 Long, .44-40, and .32-20. These last three were later dropped when it was determined the factory ammo got hotter and might be too a bit much. I have all 5 calibers and using mild loads I'd shoot them forever.
The Ideal tool you have is probably not something that came with a Ballard, and surely not yours since the barrel has been changed. Ideal wasn't started by John Barlow until 1884, and the tong tools didn't come along until around the late 1880's. Ballard production ended in 1890, and Marlin supplied their own tools for Ballard rifles.
The Ideal tools vary in value depending on condition, and whether complete. Most are missing the decapping rod/pin that sits inside the chamber. If it's very nice, with high nickel finish, but no pin, it will still get around $40-$50. If iit has the pin I'd add another $10-$15. If it's just average condition with flaking nickel, and no pin, it's worth about $30. Marlin owned Ideal from 1910 to 1916, and tools built then were marked Marlin Firearms Co. Those tools get 50% premiums in equal condition to Marlin collectors. I have 8 or 9 Marlin marked Ideal tools.
If you were to pull the forearm off your Ballard, you can see if the barrel has a serial number on it. That number will always match the receiver serial number if factory, so if the number isn't there, or is mismatched, or is the wrong font, it will tell the owner the barrel isn't factory.
A lot of Ballard rifles have been reworked, and mismatching barrels are pretty common to find.

[Green Frog]

To add to what Vall said (and this is pretty arrogant of me ‘cause he knows tons more about Ballard’s than I) there were two big times when Ballard’s seem to have been popularly modified, or perhaps three. In the last years of the 19th and the early 20th Century the style of target shooting we now call Schuetzen was very popular and many shooters thought of the Ballard as the finest platform upon which to build custom target rifles. Keep in mind that at this date smokeless powder was still in its infancy, and for most of this era there was a lot of BP still being used. Ballard had only recently been discontinued and was still common enough that most of these builds were based on the stronger, more desirable forged action. After the 1st World War until about the early ‘50s the demand for high quality rimfire position rifles brought a new rise in demand for the old Ballards, and in this instance either cast or forged frames worked fine with the lower pressures involved. Finally, the resurgence of schuetzen by the shank end of the last surge saw a renewed demand for CF target rifles and since both actions had been OK for the last round of builds, unknowledgeable folks put barrels on some of the old cast actions in calibers they were never meant to have. If I had to make a guess, I’d say your 38-55 probably was built then. It may have been one of the many examples that was built into a rimfire rifle (thus the reversible firing pin) then reconverted when somebody found a good old barrel. This is just speculation on my part, but if you check the SN on the tails of the breechblock, I bet it will not match that on the frame.

Cast Ballard’s make excellent 22s, and since we are fairly certain your example has already been altered, this might be a good use for it. If you decide to take this path, the 38-55 barrel would probably be desirable to many (myself included) if in good enough condition to merit reinstallation on a forged frame. As Vall said, those Ideal tools that accompanied it will also bring a fair amount to help recover your costs. I hope this will be of help choosing how you want to use your Ballard. :Bright idea:

Regards,
Froggie

[marlinman93]

Although I'd never recommend putting a .32-40, .38-55 barrel on a cast action, I would not say you have to remove it either. As I mentioned before, I'd never use factory ammo in it, and smokeless loads should be with slower burning powders at midrange levels!
I also have a cast action #2 Ballard with a .32-40 barrel fitted to it. It was used by an old shooter in Denver, Co. as a breech seating target rifle it's whole life, and I shoot it the same way. I keep my loads very light, and it's a joy to shoot. I wouldn't think of modifying it today as the barrel serial number matches the frame, and that would be sad to separate them just because it was rebored from .32 Long and rechambered decades ago! I'll simply keep shooting it, and keep notes in my records to indicate what it is for the future.
The gun in the bottom right side of the picture with pistol gripped nickeled receiver is this gun. It has checkered rosewood stocks with cheekpiece, half octagon barrel, horn tip forearm, loop lever, Swiss buttplate, and all are serial numbered to the gun.

[toot]

marlinman93, well today i took off the hand guard on my MARLIN BALLARD #2 rifle in 38 /55 cal. and checked the serial # on the bottom barrel flat on the octagon barrel and it is the same as on the bottom of the receiver- 304xx, both are the same. just to let you know. is that the norm? you thought the barrel was not generic to the gun in that caliber. so i am still going to shoot lite loads of TRAIL BOSS so i don't get into any trouble with it be cause it is a rely nice piece. thanks for all of your help.

[skeettx]

SWEET!!!
Now all we need is a picture of the 38-55 so we can drool
Thank you
Mike

[marlinman93]

marlinman93, well today i took off the hand guard on my MARLIN BALLARD #2 rifle in 38 /55 cal. and checked the serial # on the bottom barrel flat on the octagon barrel and it is the same as on the bottom of the receiver- 304xx, both are the same. just to let you know. is that the norm? you thought the barrel was not generic to the gun in that caliber. so i am still going to shoot lite loads of TRAIL BOSS so i don't get into any trouble with it be cause it is a rely nice piece. thanks for all of your help.

No, that is not usually what is done when converting these cast Ballards to a CF like .38-55. But it makes me wonder if perhaps they simply took a #2 in .38 Long and rechambered it to .38-55? Many Ballards had no caliber marking until late in production, so if someone had one in .38 Long they could simply add the .38-55 marking after reaming the chamber.
Next question is what size does your bore slug to? Most original Ballard barrels in .38-55 will slug around .380"-.383", but a .38 Long will slug around .375"-.376", so if yours is small it might be what happened.
I had a #2 once that was a gorgeous gun in .40-70SS. I knew when I bought it that it wasn't right, but it was cheap enough to save. It started life as a #2 in .38 Long that someone rebored to .408" and chambered in .40-70SS! I took the barrel off and saved it, as that was perfect for a forged action. I put a nice .22RF barrel on it, and made a wonderful little shooter.

[toot]

as i said this is the first one that i have had, so please bare with me for all of the questions i ask you. i just slugged the barrel and it came out at .375" on the money. so now we know it started out life as a . 38 LONG cartridge. next question, if it was a .38 LONG.RIM FIRE why did it come with a reversible rim fire to center fire firing pin in the hammer? did they put them on all rim fire and center fire actions ? my lap top will not let me take and send a picture, don't know why just will not. so if i can i will try E-MAILING you and skeettx a picture and hope it works. the gun also had a tang site on it that some one saw fit to remove be fore i got it. thanks.

[marlinman93]

The .38 Long was offered in both RF and CF cartridges, so Marlin came up with the reversible firing pin so owners had the ability to use either cartridge, depending on availability. They did this for the #2 in .32 Long, .32 Extra Long, and .44 Long also, as all three calibers came either RF or CF. Other #2 Ballards in calibers not available as RF did not get the reversible firing pin. But for calibers like .44-40, and .32-20 those #2 actions had a CF only firing pin.

[toot]

WOW! that was a novel concept in firearms making, two for one. i also didn't know about the same calibers that came in rim fire and center fire. you are a wealth of information! thank you for taking the time to put up with my questions and answering them for me.

[MOA]

Very, very nice marlinman.

[marlinman93]

WOW! that was a novel concept in firearms making, two for one. i also didn't know about the same calibers that came in rim fire and center fire. you are a wealth of information! thank you for taking the time to put up with my questions and answering them for me.

Thanks for asking! I love talking Ballards and their nuances.