Reasoning behind the "Scout Rifle" scope location on barrel.

[Just Duke]

Does this shorten target acquisition time?
I'm just thinking it's harder to center your eye in the scope avoiding the black eclipsing area you'd see when not centered

[fcvan]

I have a Mossberg 308W Scout rifle on which I mounted a long eye relief 4x optic. The rail starts from the rear ghost ring sight and runs 11.5", front sight is fiber optic. The glass is a Truglo designed for shotgun and rated for 375H&H. I personally do not like an eyepiece near my eye, generally not a glass scope guy. Having the long eye relief put the ocular lens further away so when I look into the scope it is more like looking at a red/green dot reflex lens and I can still shoot with both eyes open. Col Cooper opined that having the scope body forward of the action would make extraction/ejection less hindered as well as make the action of the piece more accessible. I can top load the 308W Scout just fine.

I have also mounted this scope on an AR15 and AR10 for load development using a .75" Cantilever Rail Riser mount. The scope came with rings BTW. Anyway, on 5 different rifles, I have not had to re-zero which I found quite handy. The reticle is cross hairs with a diamond/box center, with a 1 MOA dot in the center of the box. Very quick to acquire this sight.

On the ARs, the center of the scope is centered over the barrel nut which allowed me to leave pop up iron sights installed. I liked this scope so much I bought a second one just for mounting on a NEF Single Shot (.223) for a fun can killer. (I hate tin cans, long story) As far as the scout, well it currently has an EOTech sight from a fun day of run and gun (former SWAT here) but next range day will be load development/accuracy with the Scout Scope. It was only $59 and has held up to a few beatings in heavy cover (so far).

[Maineboy]

Wasn't using a stripper clip one of the original thoughts behind the scout rifle design? Hence the forward mounted scope.

[Bookworm]

Several reasons I can think of.
Ease of ejection - self explanatory.

Shooting with both eyes open - low power scope. Scouts need to be aware of surroundings, shooting the rifle in an actual military scout scenario is last resort.

Balance of firearm - put weight out over the front of receiver. Scout rifles are relatively short - barreled. A bit of weight up front helps steady the firearm.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I had one built on a Remington model 7 about 20 years ago. It's been my deer hunting rifle. I also did a lot of plinking with it. Having the scope closer to the bore axis and having the bolt operation unhindered are two big advantages. Target aquisition may be faster but not by much, at least compared to a conventional scope on low power. One big disadvantage is low light performance.

[Bigslug]

Wasn't using a stripper clip one of the original thoughts behind the scout rifle design? Hence the forward mounted scope.

Yep. That was the only desirable part of the concept, IMO, and since most modern Scout-concept rifles have gone to detachable magazines, the forward-mounted scope idea is irrelevant. I removed the Scout rail from my Ruger as soon as it cleared the box, and it wears a Leupold 2.5-8x36 in the conventional location. I don't have to hunt for eye relief with the scope mounted further back like I do with IER or pistol scopes, and I get all the speed and "both eyes open" I want with the minimum power setting.

[Petrol & Powder]

According to Jeff Cooper, the expert on the Scout rifle concept, the forward mounted scope is used to achieve several objectives:

Access to the receiver for rapid loading, maybe even with stripper clips.
The ability to utilize a low magnification scope with both eyes open AND sometimes the ability to remove the scope and still have use of iron sights.
Improved balance and handling of the rifle.

The scopes used in the Scout configuration are intermediate eye relief designs that fall between traditional rifle scopes and long eye relief handgun scopes.

I think Cooper was a bit over-influenced by Mauser based bolt actions and the use of stripper clips. I'm not criticizing his thinking.

[HangFireW8]

The concept works very well for me. The key is a quality scout scope, and stock fit that mounts and points like a fine shotgun. With everything going "sniper" and looking like an elaborate Schuetzen rifle gone hi-tech, many have forgotten what a quick mounting and pointing rifle is like.

[M-96 Hunter]

The thing I find questionable about the scout rifle is using a bolt gun. In the cases when a scout was discovered and had to fight his way out of Dodge, a suppressed AR SBR would make a lot more sense.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I've mounted a number of "scout" scopes, almost never as a first choice of mounting, but usually to solve a problem of some sort. For example, a bolt action military rifle on which I didn't want to do a drill and tap job on a piece that was otherwise collectable. Of course, one has to obtain a long eye relief scope, and proportionately there aren't that many made or many models available. It invariably takes some tinkering involving loosening the mounts/rings, moving the scope back for forth until the sweet spot is found where the "picture" matches up with the shooter's physical proportions and the stock measurements to avoid the "eclipse" view. Once that spot is found and everything is tightened down it doesn't mean that it will work well for someone else with a different length neck or eyesight. I have several such mounts in my long gun accumulation, but as a general rule I try to avoid them. Also, they almost always ruin the balance and heft of the rifle, and for those who like to carry the rifle one-handed at the point of balance that point of purchase is gone. But, sometimes, the scout scope is the only solution. If it's properly mounted one can learn to locate the target and acquire the picture rapidly by using both eyes.

[GhostHawk]

Never been a fan of them myself, but for some rifles it may be the only good option for an optic.

Mosin Nagant and SKS both come to mind.

Personally I prefer a small Red Dot mounted on the SKS dust cover, but I know that solution bothers a lot of people.

For the Mosin it allows as mention use of stripper clips which is a plus.

I have not put scopes on my Mosin's yet. Too many rifles, calibers, too little time, not enough money to play with them all.

And I accept that my opinion is not the majority one.
But I am not a fan of the idea, just does not look or feel "right" to me.

[Larry Gibson]

The thing I find questionable about the scout rifle is using a bolt gun. In the cases when a scout was discovered and had to fight his way out of Dodge, a suppressed AR SBR would make a lot more sense.

Depending on the tactical scenario it most often is the noise of gunfire that slows the enemy down. A suppressed rifle would not be "better" in a break contact scenario for a single or even a pair of "scouts". I do agree that the semi-auto rifle would be better though.

Having been there and done that (break contact) for real numerous times a fragmenting WP (White Phosphorous) grenade is the most effective means if the enemy is within 100 yards or so or in denser brush/forest. A "willy pete" will get their attention and hold it. A bursting and/or burning area of WP also creates a short time hazardous area they are loathe to go through quickly and mostly decide to go around.......if they continue pursuit. That gives you more time to break away or at least put more distance between you and the enemy. That's also the best time to change your direction right or left if you can.

If in more open country only accurate fire producing casualties will slow them down.

[waksupi]

I tried it on one rifle. Target acquisition was slower, and the balance of the rifle was different. I doubt I ever set up another like it.

[Larry Gibson]

Barrel mounted scopes come in two types;

True "scouts" with a correct scout scope mounted as low as possible with the ocular lens over the top of the front receiver ring. A true scout scope is of lower power not more than 3X but usually 1.5 to 2 power. Quality "dot" sights also fall into this category now if they have a 2 moa or less dot. This correct placement/mounting of the scout scope allows an instant acquisition of the sight picture through the scope w/o having to move the head side to side or back and forth to find correct eye relief and centering. This assumes the shooter is capable of shouldering/mounting, etc. the rifle properly and consistently with the same cheek weld. The other attributes such as rapid reloading of single rounds (top off the magazine) or with a stripper clip, better balance for carry and increased precision aiming there also.

The second type of barrel mounted scope is not a "scout" in any context of the meaning. This is done with rear sight mounts so the rifle (milsurp) doesn't have to be altered. Those mounts are almost always too high negating the speed with which a true scout may be used. Higher power IER scopes are often used many which necessitate the scope ocular lens being back over the action. That negates the easy and rapidity of single loading, eliminates the use of stripper clip loading and messes up the balance for carrying.

It is with the second types that most object to or find them no better than a conventional mounted scope. The only benefit to them is aiming from a bench or fixed position can be more precise. I find them neither faster to use of handier than a conventionally receiver mounted scope. I object to them also when referred as "scouts".

I liked Coopers scout concept with only 2 exceptions; weight and barrel length. I feel the weight limit is to arbitrary eliminating the robust action types (bolt or automatic) needed for military (even military scouts) use. Also having shot out numerous short barrels (16 - 20") the only place I've found them beneficial over a 20 - 24" barrels including a flash suppressor is when getting in and out of a cramped vehicle. The inclusion of a flash suppressor was not in Coopers criteria but I feel it is essential in a military context, especially if shooting in low light conditions.

Here is my concept (based largely on Coopers criteria) for a true scout bolt action rifle;
212839

For an automatic the AR 15 with 20" barrel having a "dot site (an Eotech in my pick) mounted well forward over the handguard so the dot is coaxial with the iron sight's sight picture.
212840

The M1A/M14 with a scout scope mount handguard with a Burris 2x7 power scout scope would actually be my 1st choice but then I'm so like last century.......

[marlin39a]

I have a Springfield Armory M1A Scout with forward optics. Firing with both eyes open, I find I can put rounds into multiple targets fast. Now I'm thinking of an AR type weapon in this configuration.

[upnorthwis]

The only reason I went the scout concept on my M96 Swede was to not have to drill and tap it. Now that I've shot a deer with it to add to my list of calibers I've shot deer with (24) it will come off. For me the "regular" mount comes up and is like looking at a 50" TV from 3 feet, where with the scout I have to search around for it.

[Larry Gibson]

Some other scouts I have;

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[Gray Fox]

I have 5 rifles in the scout configuration; 2 Ruger Scout Rifles, a Marlin Guide Gun in .45-70, a Marlin 336 and a Winchester 94 in .30-30, the last 3 all with XS Systems scout rails. The latter 3 allow a magazine top off at any time. All of them aid 70-year-old eyes that used to prefer aperture sights. GF

[Char-Gar]

According to Jeff Cooper, the expert on the Scout rifle concept, the forward mounted scope is used to achieve several objectives:

Access to the receiver for rapid loading, maybe even with stripper clips.
The ability to utilize a low magnification scope with both eyes open AND sometimes the ability to remove the scope and still have use of iron sights.
Improved balance and handling of the rifle.

The scopes used in the Scout configuration are intermediate eye relief designs that fall between traditional rifle scopes and long eye relief handgun scopes.

I think Cooper was a bit over-influenced by Mauser based bolt actions and the use of stripper clips. I'm not criticizing his thinking.

My memory of Cooper's writing about the concept tell me this is correct. Cooper wanted a one rifle hybrid that would function for living off the land and combat if necessary. It was to be a rifle that could replace all others with appropriate compromises. If the truth be known, I was not all that impressed with Cooper, his writing or notions on anything. He liked to pass himself off as the "gunners guru" and used the royal "we" when talking only about himself. I found all of that very off putting.

[Larry Gibson]

I liked Cooper's writing. Thought he was straight forward and to the point. I never agreed with everything he wrote but then I can say the same about all writers.

Opinionated? Yes, but then he was a Marine Officer......what do you expect.....about like Boddington today (I like his writing too)....but mostly the magazines of the day wanted that style of writing along with the attendant exchange of ideas because it stirred controversy which increased circulation which meant they sold more magazines. Cooper was no more opinionated than Keith, Askins, O'Conner, Jordan, Skelton etc. et all.......

The older I get and the farther south my eyesight goes the more I appreciate Cooper's scout concept.

[Char-Gar]

I liked Cooper's writing. Thought he was straight forward and to the point. I never agreed with everything he wrote but then I can say the same about all writers.

Opinionated? Yes, but then he was a Marine Officer......what do you expect.....about like Boddington today (I like his writing too)....but mostly the magazines of the day wanted that style of writing along with the attendant exchange of ideas because it stirred controversy which increased circulation which meant they sold more magazines. Cooper was no more opinionated than Keith, Askins, O'Conner, Jordan, Skelton etc. et all.......

The older I get and the farther south my eyesight goes the more I appreciate Cooper's scout concept.

Well Keith, Askins and O'Conner were quite full of themselves as well. I don't feel that Bill Jordan and Charles Skelton fell into that category. They were down to earth kind of guys, that held opinions based on their own experiences. I guess the same could be said for all of them, but neither Jordan or Skelton were condescending to others in their opinions. I knew Bill Jordan quite well and he was never full of himself. He was a Marine officer in WWII as well.

The first forward mounted scope I saw, was the long eye relief by Leupold made for barrel mounting on top ejecting Winchester leverguns. I shot one about 1969. It worked OK, but it was just to weird for me at the time. Today I might think differently.

[mdi]

I believe Cooper liked the balance and using both eyes. A good description; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scout_rifle

[mcdaniel.mac]

Does this shorten target acquisition time?
I'm just thinking it's harder to center your eye in the scope avoiding the black eclipsing area you'd see when not centeredHe wanted to be able to use stripper clips, as the Scout Rifle was not an ultimate combat rifle but rather an all-around ER aimed at being within the reach of anyone who could own a bolt action rifle. IIRC he based it on a surplus Mauser project.

Modern low power variable scopes and detachable magazines make many of the original Scout Rifle features irrelevant.

Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk

[HangFireW8]

Does this shorten target acquisition time?


Getting back to the original question here. Using a proper Scout rifle does shorten target acquisition time, assuming the rifle is as lightweight, well shaped and well fit as it should be... and you keep both eyes open, all which only has a little to do with the scope mounting position.


I'm just thinking it's harder to center your eye in the scope avoiding the black eclipsing area you'd see when not centered

As for centering your eye, you have to do that to achieve accurate results on any rifle... with a Scout and a 1.5x scope, you can keep both eyes open until that is accomplished, which means breaking the habit of closing one eye. (One of the hardest habits I ever had to do in Trap shooting is learning to keep both eyes open; it was only then that I started to get consistently above 22).

[Texas by God]

Cooper started with the 600 Remington, then Sako, then Brno in .350 mag, then a Springfield Scout. I've tried the concept on several rifles and I don't like it. A 4x mounted in the normal way is very quick to aquire with both eyes open.

[woodbutcher]

[smilie=s: The old both eyes open for target acquisition don`t work worth diddly doo fer me.My right eye has been inop since I was 16.But,that`s a story for another time and and place.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[country gent]

The scout concept had several "advantages" The forward low mounted scopes more in line with the standard cheek pieces combs of the time. Allowing for a better cheek weld on the stock. Cooper thought it allowed the rifle to be carried closer to the "balance point" easier. A stripper clip could be used to charge the magazine in a hurry. The forward mounted scope lessen the chance of getting kissed in different positions, Cooper liked light heavy caliber rifles. It was supposedly quicker to use.

I set up a fifty caliber renegade muzzle loader with a forward mounted scope. Bushnell Phantom 2.5X rail mount for the scope in a clamp type mount from a contender. the screw holes lined up with the rear sights screw holes. So was a simple bolt on. It was very low over the barrel. It was far enough forward I didn't have to bend the hammer spur to clear it. And the biggest thing was when I shouldered the rifle it was right there with the comb cheek piece of the original stock for me. I could follow birds flying with it. Other than the odd look of it, it was a decent set up.
On game animals rabbits woodchucks ect it came up where I was looking much better than the normal mounted scopes did.

[swheeler]

Posters above have covered the reasoning for the scout rifle. The reason I have scout mounted scopes is so I can see the target. I can remove the base and scope to put a military rifle back to original in the blink of an eye. The rifles I have them on are by no means short or handy, a Turk 98 and MN 91/30.

[arlon]

I have a custom Danish Krag in 45/70 that is set up that way (how I got it). Not sure why they did it scout style but it can be loaded pretty heavy and not worry about dinging my eyebrow. Sure not a "scout" rifle with it's rather long and very heavy barrel. Fun for shooting beer cans with.

[Bent Ramrod]

Cooper’s original intent was for a general-purpose rifle that was minimally burdensome and clumsy to carry and powerful enough to take out anything in the ~450 lb range and/or disable an unarmored vehicle out to 500 yards or so. The .308 caliber was chosen for length and power level. A more-or-less arbitrary weight limit of 3kg and length of 1 meter was selected for this handiness factor. The members of the “Scout Conference” were not theoreticians, but hunters and veterans, so the “arbitrariness” of the specs certainly had some relevance to real field conditions. The rifle would not necessarily excel in any one area, but it would be adequate to meet all requirements.

Accuracy had to be adequate for those purposes, but more important was ergonomics. Sitting or squatting with sling would be the most common “steady” positions, and it had to be very fast on target in a close-up emergency. The three-position sling, quickly detachable if necessary, and the forward mounted scope were judged to be the most efficacious way to this goal. The skinny barrel, with the weight between the hands, would further assist this rapid offhand target acquisition.

Unfortunately, most gun reviewers had no interest in the concept, and when they got a copy of the rifle to test, it was just another job to them. They didn’t like the looks. They carried it from their vehicle to the bench, so the weight difference and handy length didn’t register. It wasn’t a lever action carbine, so the old bromides about “quick handling in the timber” didn’t come to mind. Bolt actions came with certain other presuppositions, and this weird example didn’t fit them. The scope was too far forward for closed-eye shooting off the bench, and too low a power. Groups at 100 yards were ho-hum. And so forth. One guy even took the scoutscope off, mounted one of his own high power scopes in the standard position, and announced that he had “improved” the rifle considerably. Meanwhile, at Gunsite, people were hitting two or three of five thrown clay pigeons with the rifle, and Cooper was preaching an exercise for a future African expedition. Have the rifle (unloaded) by one’s side while TV watching, and when an ad with two O’s in it (i.e., “Look!”or “Toyota”) came on screen, to see if two trigger snaps, with bolt manipulation, could be achieved, with the crosshairs on each O, in turn, before the word disappeared. It was assumed that one could always find a rest and snuggle down, if the target was far enough away, and, as Cooper said of one of his rifles, “If the accuracy was half what it is, it would still be twice that needed for the purpose.”

Cooper had no brief against autoloaders, but what was available at the time was not compact enough. But the person with a Scout rifle was not going to be firing many shots; he was going to be “scouting.” I like Cooper’s writing a lot; his opinions all had real data to back them up, so even if I didn’t agree with them, I could see where he was coming from.

My own “Scoutlike” rifle is on a Krag action, so I knew it would never make the weight, and therefore when I didn’t have the heart to turn the barrel down to the skinny proportion required, I forgave myself. But I can still see the advantages Cooper touted when I take it afield.

[Shiloh]

Rapid loading, balance and field view. Particularly field of view.
Dangerous game in thick bush means keeping both eyes open. Heard that from a Texas wild boar hunter. Some brutal country he hunted in.

Shiloh

[725]

I have a couple scout mounted scopes. They are different than traditional. When mounted to the correct height for the stock, they are extremely quick. Both eyes open, away from the action, and depending on the particulars of your rig, quite well balanced. But then, I like anchovies, some don't. No correct answer here.

[sparkyv]

According to Jeff Cooper, the expert on the Scout rifle concept, the forward mounted scope is used to achieve several objectives:

Access to the receiver for rapid loading, maybe even with stripper clips.
The ability to utilize a low magnification scope with both eyes open AND sometimes the ability to remove the scope and still have use of iron sights.
Improved balance and handling of the rifle.

What he said.

[sparkyv]

Barrel mounted scopes come in two types;
True "scouts" with a correct scout scope mounted as low as possible with the ocular lens over the top of the front receiver ring. ......

Larry, I know that you know what you are talking about, but my scope is mounted higher so that I can still use the iron sights if need be. What is your opinion on this?