Lyman quality control heads up!

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Not sure whats with lyman lately, but already we've seen on here where one barrel/breech split right in half and could have injured or killed the shooter due to poor quality control.

This popped on facebook where the guy was having pure hell getting a GPR flinter to fire off reliably. He found a still attached chunk of metal blocking inside the breech area.

"A friend was having trouble with a new Lyman miss firing,we put a new RMC touch hole liner in, helped a little, drilled the touch hole with a # 52 drill help even more but it just wasn't right. I decided to use a modified breech scraper in the Patented Breech and found a small piece/burr from the threading of the touch hole was down in the patented breech blocking the powder from getting to the touch hole.Got the metal piece out after a little working it back and forth to get it to come lose,and now the gun fires fast every time.So if anyone is having trouble,I would look into this.Just a case of poor workmanship on the part of Lyman."
212809

Now a member over at my place has been having issues with his GPR stock as well. He wasnt happy with the sloppy metal to wood fit and to top it off, a crack in the stock. He got the ok from lyman to send it in for replacement. Low and behold, he gets the rifle back and they did not do a thing to it! same stock and everything!

Lyman agreed to send him a replacement stock this time and he could do the work since he was not happy with the first go around. He got it and boy oh boy! Its really worse than the first! Not cool considering the tang screw goes through this area, or close by this area.
212810

Replacement stock ( #3 is currently on the way )
212811

When it comes to buying a new sidelock, you may want to reconsider lyman. The quality has greatly dropped over the past 5+ years. Now we are seeing barrel failures, stocks cracking, huge chunks of metal being left inside the barrels. This is not good.

[triggerhappy243]

Lyman's are made in Spain. hmmmmmmmmmm

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Lyman is made in italy.

[triggerhappy243]

close.........lol

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

They used to do a solid job. After seeing some of what they are turning out now... I'm sticking with my made in Spain guns lol.

[triggerhappy243]

american made for me .... all the way or I do without.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Good luck with that. Tc arms no longer warrants their sidelocks.

[triggerhappy243]

hahahaha, these will out last me.

[charlie b]

M Lyman's have never needed anything done to them, but, I've only had three of them in 30 years.

FWIW, a few cases of issues would not dissuade me from buying another one. And many things I've had that were made in the US were worse than overseas mfg products.

[HangFireW8]

OK, so it's good to go over any new purchase and look for flaws, and maybe Lyman's OEM is suffering from some QA issues.

But stock cracks... can happen any time, to any stock. There is an "infant mortality" rate with rifle stocks just the same as electronics (more likely to have a problem early on). The reason is simple, it's made from a natural product (wood) with variable characteristics, and as the wood dries out and cures, cracks can happen. Not every manufacturer ages their wood the proper amount of time, 7-11 years. Most go through a steam and kiln process that cures them "mostly" very quickly.

Remington 700 wood stocks for years (haven't tried them lately) had a pre-repair done on that little bridge of wood ahead of the trigger, and behind the magazine. You can see it as a little brass dot on one side of the rifle.

This kind of repair is easy to do, Brownell's makes a kit for it. You just need some threaded brass rod, a matching drill bit, and some epoxy. Careful file work and finishing and you'll just have a little brass dot on the surface, that often looks like it belongs there.

[Rick Hodges]

OK, so it's good to go over any new purchase and look for flaws, and maybe Lyman's OEM is suffering from some QA issues.

But stock cracks... can happen any time, to any stock. There is an "infant mortality" rate with rifle stocks just the same as electronics (more likely to have a problem early on). The reason is simple, it's made from a natural product (wood) with variable characteristics, and as the wood dries out and cures, cracks can happen. Not every manufacturer ages their wood the proper amount of time, 7-11 years. Most go through a steam and kiln process that cures them "mostly" very quickly.

Remington 700 wood stocks for years (haven't tried them lately) had a pre-repair done on that little bridge of wood ahead of the trigger, and behind the magazine. You can see it as a little brass dot on one side of the rifle.

This kind of repair is easy to do, Brownell's makes a kit for it. You just need some threaded brass rod, a matching drill bit, and some epoxy. Careful file work and finishing and you'll just have a little brass dot on the surface, that often looks like it belongs there.

The "brass dot" is where they hung the stock when it was being sprayed with the glass like gloss finish...the brass rod was then cut off and buffed flush when the stock dried. They used to have a video showing them being made. Not a repair, but a production aid.

[triggerhappy243]

Frontiers comments about the barrel machining snaff-foo, well that is a q/c-qa blunder. I have no answer as to why it is happening.

The wood issue, well..... Hangfire nailed that one. I do not know how these rifles make it from italy to the u.s. Mainland, but if it is by ship, than their is a humidity issue to contend with.

[sharps4590]

Lyman hasn't been the company they used to be for several years from my experience. I had a GPR and it was a pretty darn good rifle. However, that was probably close to 30 years ago.

[silly goose]

I'd buy a lyman or pedersoli before I bought any other production mz.

[charlie b]

I would not hesitate to buy a Traditions. The ones I have seen shoot well.

[rfd]

any production gun can have issues, particularly of offshore origin. it's also important to add in how the guns are used, and then beware of people with agendas.

lyman doesn't make trad ml's, neither does traditions - they both use rebranded arms from either italy (investarms rebranded as lyman, dgw, cabela and others) and spain (i think it's BPI, branded as traditions, cva and others).

one thing that i'll do with any offshore muzzleloader that's new to me is check out the breech by taking it off. with the right tools, piece of cake with investarms guns, but impossible for me with any spanish built guns (the last literature i had with a traditions gun - a crockett .32 - expressly stated that any attempted removal of the breech plug would damage the barrel). inspecting the plug, chamber and barrel may yield production issues, which i have yet to find with the dozen or so investarms trad ml's i've had in both kit and already built form, but it also allows proofing residue cleanup and anti-seize plug and bolster lubing.

a good gun is a good gun, don't matter where it was made or who made it. this could easily be an offshore gun from italy or spain or elsewhere. these guns have been in the same production for decades and i seriously doubt than any of these manufacturers are bent on making bad guns. quality control is another matter, and they (whomever the gun originated from) don't do it, or is suspect, the onus is on the buyer. look at all the big time centerfire gun manufacturers with gun recalls.

i only prefer the investarms guns because they're easier for me to work on. and as such, i've put together 3 or 4 GPR kit guns last year alone, and each was as good as they get, which is a good thing. i love an onshore built trad ml, i have more than a few, and yet i still have a GPR kit gun that's just as good. there is some measure of subjectivity to guns, mostly aesthetic in nature. objectively, these italian and spanish guns are by and large very good values.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Well, the gentleman received his second replacement stock.... There are NO EXCUSES now. What a joke
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4616/39306276934_e9ae6bdb7a_z.jpg
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4759/39117682645_9fb76d9ec1_z.jpg

[triggerhappy243]

frontier, this stock looks like it is drying out.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Brand new replacement from lyman

[trapper9260]

That is sad for what it going on with Lyman. The side locks I got are all used and no problem like that. They are not Lyman ,but still ok for what the way they where made back then.

[Edward]

frontier, this stock looks like it is drying out.
Called checking ,a prime example of wood not dried .Somebody did not leave it in the kiln long enough , (like furniture grade wood )stocks require a low moisture content . Air dried it could be years depending on wood type/thickness .

[rfd]

please jon, stop this silly witch hunt. there are many reasons for finding stock cracks. i've seen plenty over the last 60 years with all manner of offshore trad ml's that includes cva and traditions brands, besides the the lyman brand. these are BRANDS/vendors, not manufacturers. vendor inventories can be months or years, and then one must question their storage facilities. got a cracked stock? what crack? the stock cracks shown in this thread are internal to mortises and inlets, and more than likely the result of drying out or in an environment with greater than normal temperature swings - or yes, not properly seasoned in the first place. ALL are easily fixed with a bit of baking soda and some wicked in water thin CYA, where the fixes will be stronger than the wood. to protect stock mortises and inlets i always saturate those wood areas with quality "hot stuff" water thin CYA - it penetrates the wood grain and seals it from the ravages of bp residue. this is a smart preventative procedure to adopt for any wood stocked bp ml. as it is, i see this thread as one of many threads in the continuing agenda of someone who is constantly promoting a particular brand of trad ml whilst besmirching another brand of trad ml. that in itself is silly as ALL offshore guns have price point value, each with their appointments and plus/minus issues to consider, for folks wanting a good, safe, accurate, durable trad ml without the $1k and way above price tag than will be required for an onshore built trad ml.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

I've yet to come across a brand new rifle stock that looks like any of these. This is poor quality control plain and simple. i have a shotgun from the 1880s that doesnt even look like the stuff lyman is turning out. Make up all the excuses you want, this is NOT quality and the fact that lyman keeps sending cracked stocks to their customers is bad.

[rfd]

I've yet to come across a brand new rifle stock that looks like any of these. This is poor quality control plain and simple. i have a shotgun from the 1880s that doesnt even look like the stuff lyman is turning out. Make up all the excuses you want, this is NOT quality and the fact that lyman keeps sending cracked stocks to their customers is bad.

that is a very broad and totally unsubstantiated smear claim based on a tiny portion of production guns. the same could easily be said for ANY offshore gun manufacturer. yer claims border on slander, be careful.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

off shore has nothing to do with the topic. The quality of what we are seeing is nothing to be proud of. Buy an expensive rifle with cracked stocks from the factory and then fix it yourself? lol, hey fellers, i just bought a brand new $70,000 dodge ram! Just gotta replace the motor as shes got a bit of a knock. Its ok though, its made off shore and should be expected....

Slander my rear end! Lyman has produced 3 rotten stocks for this one guy. Imagine how many other poor souls are out there that refuse to use the internet and most likely get the cold shoulder.

i bought a cva hawken stock from deer creek while building my brother a new rifle. The stock came cracked around the patch box. I sent it back and what did deer creek do? They send me a new one in perfect shape.

Raise your hand guys. If you bought ANY brand of rifle and it came with a cracked stock and the company replaced it twice and they got worse after each replacement try... Would you be happy and expect it because its an off shore build?

[rfd]

i've been through this before with you jon, yer wrong and you do have a personal for agenda. i'm outta here and done with you.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Theres no disputing lymans problems rfd. Repair cracked stock on a brand new rifle? or yet, 2 replacement stocks? NUH UH!

[dondiego]

off shore has nothing to do with the topic. The quality of what we are seeing is nothing to be proud of. Buy an expensive rifle with cracked stocks from the factory and then fix it yourself? lol, hey fellers, i just bought a brand new $70,000 dodge ram! Just gotta replace the motor as shes got a bit of a knock. Its ok though, its made off shore and should be expected....

Slander my rear end! Lyman has produced 3 rotten stocks for this one guy. Imagine how many other poor souls are out there that refuse to use the internet and most likely get the cold shoulder.

i bought a cva hawken stock from deer creek while building my brother a new rifle. The stock came cracked around the patch box. I sent it back and what did deer creek do? They send me a new one in perfect shape.

Raise your hand guys. If you bought ANY brand of rifle and it came with a cracked stock and the company replaced it twice and they got worse after each replacement try... Would you be happy and expect it because its an off shore build?

Expensive rifle? You are kidding right?

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

$600 isn't cheap.

[triggerhappy243]

Jon, I hope you are not comparing a lyman stock to a traditions stock. If I remember you saying..... Traditions uses beech wood for their stocks. Lyman "LOOK" like walnut. It has been a long time since I have worked with exotic woods, but i do remember a project using beech. You can boil it and bend it like soggy celery.

Walnut takes years to cure, and must be done in a climate controlled environment to avoid "CHECKING" (thank you Edward). Beech? I honestly do not know, but have handled beech lumber before.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Theres no comparing anything. I am simply showing some issues lyman has had with their barrels and wood. This is not just a recent issue folks. This has been going on for a handful + 7 years now and has been getting worse. If you buy a new lyman, check behind the lock and under the trigger.

[dondiego]

I will note that the quality of Lyman molds hasn't really improved in my opinion. Bought 2 recently and it took some time to Lyment them.

[KenT7021]

If the rifle was made by Lee it would been accepted as perfectly normal and just in need of Leementing.

[grullaguy]

I won't buy a new Lyman bullet mold after having to deal with the hassle of over a year, trying to get a defective one fixed. (It never was)

I now buy from honest mold making companies.

[hylander]

Just found this thread.
Just happens I am the one mentioned with the bad stocks.
To start, I purchased a GPR many years ago and it was flawless, loved it.
Bragged them up for years.
This is not a bashing session just telling my story with the Lyman GPR, also I do not see FrontierMuzzleloader as having an agenda, just passing on info of what to look out for.
So as it stands this rifle came with a cracked stock and the barrel channel out of alignment.
No amount of moving wood, fitting or any other correction could fix this.
Also the fit of metal to wood was awful, wood very proud everywhere, looked like it was a kit stock and never fitted.
John the CS manager at Lyman has been trying to help me out, he been great.
However they have now shipped me 3 replacement stocks, so total of 4 stocks.
All have been cracked and split under the lock area and all still needed fitting.
This is a $700 rifle not a $300 kit, so the mention of having to fix these issues on the consumer end carries not weight.
Looking these over, it is easy to see why they are cracking.
Relief areas for the lock are being milled to deep and thinning out areas it should not.
Also to me it seems they are not curing the wood proper.
I am sending everything back to Lyman and John has authorized a full refund including shipping.
I have read multiple threads of Lyman CS being horrible, however they have responded to my issue very well except
they could not seem to find me a usable stock.

[triggerhappy243]

QUOTE: they could not seem to find me a usable stock. THEY>>>>>>>>>>>>> need to go talk to a custom stock maker, and quit MAKING excuses.

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=FrontierMuzzleloading;4272055]

Now a member over at my place has been having issues with his GPR stock as well. He wasnt happy with the sloppy metal to wood fit and to top it off, a crack in the stock. He got the ok from lyman to send it in for replacement. Low and behold, he gets the rifle back and they did not do a thing to it! same stock and everything!

Lyman agreed to send him a replacement stock this time and he could do the work since he was not happy with the first go around. He got it and boy oh boy! Its really worse than the first! Not cool considering the tang screw goes through this area, or close by this area.
212810



?????You guys are spoiled - If the red arrer is all thats wrong with no 1 - I woulda kept it an went shootin

[hylander]

[QUOTE=FrontierMuzzleloading;4272055]

Now a member over at my place has been having issues with his GPR stock as well. He wasnt happy with the sloppy metal to wood fit and to top it off, a crack in the stock. He got the ok from lyman to send it in for replacement. Low and behold, he gets the rifle back and they did not do a thing to it! same stock and everything!

Lyman agreed to send him a replacement stock this time and he could do the work since he was not happy with the first go around. He got it and boy oh boy! Its really worse than the first! Not cool considering the tang screw goes through this area, or close by this area.
212810



?????You guys are spoiled - If the red arrer is all thats wrong with no 1 - I woulda kept it an went shootin

Well, if you mean getting a new rifle without damage, then yes I am spoiled.
That crack goes right through were the tang nut is.