Help Needed From Veteran Flinter's Shooting Offhand

[Themoose]

Need to reach out to veteran flinters for voices of experience. I want to become more competent with my flinter... I think I can shoot it as well as my aging eyes and iron sights will permit OFF A REST... but shoot miserably offhand... I know that I don't shoot the rifle enough to master it and each year I think I will get it out well before PA's flintlock season, but if I get it to the range half a dozen times before season, I'm doing good...

Part of the reason I don't shoot more often with the flinter is because I spend a lot of my range time on other firearms, both centerfire and black powder... somehow the flilnter gets left at the bottom of the "to do" list... after some contemplation I think the reason that it is the low priority is I hate to not do well at something... also, it just isn't fun when I am struggling to get a decent group... I'm sure that I am not alone...

Again this year I'm saying to myself that I will get better, but I have no plan...and without a plan, I doubt that I will obtain the results I want...
I don't have a custom made high end rifle, I have an RMC AccuSporter with an L&R lock and fast twist 1:28 barrel...I have been able to shoot acceptable(to me) groups off a rest at 50 & 100 yds using 460 grain paper patched conical bullets.

Here are some of the options that I am considering and some questions or "issues" where others who have mastered the flinter can help.

1. Removing the flint and replacing it with a piece of hard wood to practice dry firing offhand inside(warm, dry and no travel time)

2. Doing the above, but with eyes closed or covered to reduce "flinch" (I know I normally shoot low when shooting offhand)

3. Shooting a lighter bullet/powder combination for practice. I currently shoot 80gr Swiss FFF with a 460 gr bullet... lot of recoil, lot of lead & powder for each shot... but have no experience with lighter loads in a fast twist barrel... some of you may have suggestions

4. Thought of going way out and getting another fllinter in .36 or .32 to shoot. Thinking it would be more enjoyable to shoot and perhaps help break bad habits... but in looking also see that expense be to large for my budget...I considered trying to trade with some in-lines or centerfires, but doubt that is very realistic..

5, Just shoot more with the bullet powder combo I hunt with... another member posed a question about flash hole erosion by shooting heavy charges.. I have no experience... does anyone else?

Thanks in advance for taking a look... I am eager to improve and am welcome to all views..
Kindest regards,
TheMoose

[KCSO]

First off make you a WOODEN flint. Put this in the gun and practice 10 shots a day off hand till you can see the sights through the whole strike of the flint. The most common cause of poor offhand is bobbing when the flint strikes. A good flint shooter can hold through a hang fire and still hit the target. The gun should not move till the ball is gone. The way to check this on the range is , Can you see the fire come out the muzzle. Every shot you fire that you can still see the muzzleflash will be a ten, you need to learn to keep the eyes on target through the shot.

When I was still training some 35or 45? or more years ago I had my Father in Law shoot with me. He had no problem hitting every shot. I asked if the flint or the flash bothered him and he said I don't know I watch the target nothing else...nuff said.

[Themoose]

Thanks KCSO...that adds some "detail" to the first option listed... it doesn't cost anything.. heck, I could probably make a million wood ones from all the dead ash trees in my yard... thanks again

[waksupi]

Follow through is important. I teach new flint shooters, squeeze, two, three. Keep the sights on target until you get to three.
You are shooting an awful heavy load, and would be better off learning with a round ball gun. I think you are flinching away from the recoil.
Nothing substitutes for range time. You have to earn it.

[Themoose]

Good point Waksupi, I only have one flinter now... with its' fast twist barrel, I doubt that it would shoot accurate enough with light round ball loads to help me get to the accuracy point. Years ago I worked up the most accurate roundball load in one of my 50 caplocks... worked out to 62gr FF... was deadly accurate and recoil really mild. I can get about 2 1/2 roundballs worth of lead out of one conical... the economy of the lead is appealing..

[rking22]

A bit off the wall, but I found that my flint shooting improved whenI started shooting a spring piston air rifle , offhand and 30 plus shots most every day. Same requirement of ffollowthru as a flint gun and the piston generated movement is a distraction like the flash. Like but different, if you do anything correctly , repeatedly you get better. Note my quote below :)

Actually you should try a rb load, load light and you may findit to shoot pretty well. Dont think I would want to practice much with that mastadon load!

[Themoose]

Never thought of the air rifle... and I do have one at hand... thanks

[DIRT Farmer]

Try the round ball load, if your rifle is a 50 try a very tight load even a .500 ball and 18 to 20 thousands patching. seat it with a short starter and I have seen 1-18 barrels shoot well with moderate loads. I have brass ball seats turned for my match rifles.

[indian joe]

Need to reach out to veteran flinters for voices of experience. I want to become more competent with my flinter... I think I can shoot it as well as my aging eyes and iron sights will permit OFF A REST... but shoot miserably offhand... I know that I don't shoot the rifle enough to master it and each year I think I will get it out well before PA's flintlock season, but if I get it to the range half a dozen times before season, I'm doing good...

Part of the reason I don't shoot more often with the flinter is because I spend a lot of my range time on other firearms, both centerfire and black powder... somehow the flilnter gets left at the bottom of the "to do" list... after some contemplation I think the reason that it is the low priority is I hate to not do well at something... also, it just isn't fun when I am struggling to get a decent group... I'm sure that I am not alone...

Again this year I'm saying to myself that I will get better, but I have no plan...and without a plan, I doubt that I will obtain the results I want...
I don't have a custom made high end rifle, I have an RMC AccuSporter with an L&R lock and fast twist 1:28 barrel...I have been able to shoot acceptable(to me) groups off a rest at 50 & 100 yds using 460 grain paper patched conical bullets.

Here are some of the options that I am considering and some questions or "issues" where others who have mastered the flinter can help.

1. Removing the flint and replacing it with a piece of hard wood to practice dry firing offhand inside(warm, dry and no travel time)

2. Doing the above, but with eyes closed or covered to reduce "flinch" (I know I normally shoot low when shooting offhand)

3. Shooting a lighter bullet/powder combination for practice. I currently shoot 80gr Swiss FFF with a 460 gr bullet... lot of recoil, lot of lead & powder for each shot... but have no experience with lighter loads in a fast twist barrel... some of you may have suggestions

4. Thought of going way out and getting another fllinter in .36 or .32 to shoot. Thinking it would be more enjoyable to shoot and perhaps help break bad habits... but in looking also see that expense be to large for my budget...I considered trying to trade with some in-lines or centerfires, but doubt that is very realistic..

5, Just shoot more with the bullet powder combo I hunt with... another member posed a question about flash hole erosion by shooting heavy charges.. I have no experience... does anyone else?

Thanks in advance for taking a look... I am eager to improve and am welcome to all views..
Kindest regards,
TheMoose

Lots of advice - most of it good- some a little superflous - none of it bad.
Mine is simple - train yourself to see the front sight imprinted on the target as the muzzle flashes - if you cant see that you will miss - if you can get that worked out its a good shot - you will not see the flash from the pan nor the hammer striking the frizzen - you maybe a little aware of the clank of the lock firing - but thats all it will be ......you must see clear the flame and smoke at the muzzle. It takes some powder burnt ! a couple of trips to the range wont do it. The other thing - never pick up a gun to shoot offhand that you dont know for sure and certain is capable of a bullseye every shot . Never give yourself an excuse! The wood flint sounds like a good idea but for my money seeing the muzzle flash is the key - I think I would rather practice in the late afternoon with a 22 than the wooden flint gun .

I think your number two is a bad idea (a really BAD idea for me) - most people who flinch may not realise it but as well as yanking the trigger we usually blink at the same time - thats what my stuff above is all about - keeping that sight eye open and focussed on the mark as she goes off --

[sharps4590]

Follow through. If you aren't following through you'll always shoot low, you're dropping the shot, just like with a bow. Precisely as the others have mentioned about seeing the muzzle flash.

[Themoose]

Thanks to all for your experience. I'm going to try some of them and see how it goes and if I don't improve ....go to other ideas. I am going to make a few "flints" out of some Ash...got about 15 of them to take down so I have plenty of wood to use. I bought an old Stevens 66B today @ local gunshow..It is full-size and has open sights. Use both for offhand practice. Will also give reduced roundballs a whirl.

A sincere thanks to all.

Themoose

[charlie b]

I guess I would ask first if you can shoot any rifle well off hand? If so then you are 90% of the way there.

FWIW, a fast twist barrel can shoot patched ball reasonably well. Mine likes a light load best, but, wind blows it around quite a bit so I keep it in the 25-50yd range. It is good when I want to shoot but not punish myself or burn much powder.

[Themoose]

charlie b,

I don't shoot offhand as well as I once did, but I do reasonably well with other firearms... I know that I need to practice offhand more, like most, I have become more dependant on a stable rest than I should and most of my rifles sport variable power scopes...

[charlie b]

I only asked cause I am in the same boat. Really have not shot off hand seriously for a decade or more. I got caught up in trying to get one hole groups from all of my guns :)

[JMtoolman]

When I learned to shoot a flint rifle years and years ago. I found if I pulled the rifle as hard as I could into my shoulder while I was pulling the trigger I could not flinch while the shot was going off. Of course you have to focus on the front sight at the same time, and follow through keeping your eyes open. I hunted for 35 years with a flint, taking much game. The toolman.

[oldracer]

Our muzzle loader matches are all off hand and it took me a while to get somewhat proficient at it. I watched the shooters who did well to see what they did such as loads and how they hold the rifle. Since I have pretty bad arthritis it is pretty hard if not impossible to hold the sights on a target. My mentor who was a national champion with a home made long barreled Sharps showed me how he shot. He made the rifle as balanced as possible, usually some lead in the stock so when holding it with the left hand in front of the trigger guard it was even. He started with the rifle just a bit high and slowly came down and touched the front trigger at bulls eye time. Holding with sights on the bulls eye never worked. Took me a bit but those sure helped. Since you said you shoot low, maybe this can help bring up the impact points?
John

[Themoose]

all valuable experiences, thanks to all for sharing...glad to see that I'm not the only old geezer in this boat... got some major projects at home that need cleared before I can get to the range, but did get a couple of pieces of ash to make wooden flints... can do that in the house and for a few minutes each day... just trying to think of an appropriate target to use.... with all the **** going on in politics there are so, so many choices... but will probably go with a small black dot.... also was thinking of somehow rigging a cheap laser light in the bore of the fling to see if I can hold it on target thru the shot sequence... but that may be too much for my old noggin to do.. or I could set up camera or phone to record the target with laser dot to critique later.

[heelerau]

I would do the wooden flint thing for a week or two, then powder and flint supplies permitting, just prime you rifle, and flash of 3 or four times a day for a few days, once again focus on the target and follow through. The priming flash will get you used to things going off under your nose. An old mate who won a lot of club gold medals with his lovely Lancaster style flintlock taught me this. He is now dead, and he left me that rifle and a couple of others and a lot of sage advise over the years. Air rifle for off hand is great practise too for the same reasons as stated by the chap who originally suggested it. Good luck !! PS is would shorten a toothpick and block the vent to save dirtying the bore.

cheers

Heelerau

[Themoose]

Thanks again... toothpick is good idea I never would have thought of.. what may be even better is to get a allen head set screw at hardware to seal the bore off...
thanks mate..

[oldracer]

I read through your original post again and it seems you are concerned with hunting and hitting the target such as a deer? If that is the case then the "hold time" and follow through as Waksupi mentioned above are going to be fast. If you are concerned with bulls eye shooting that is different and I watch the older Schuetzen shooters and they have a very hard time holding the front sight steady even with a palm rest. Maybe the wooden flint substitute and a laser bore sighter shining on a wall will help to steady things. Have someone watch the red dot move and mark the limits with a pencil maybe?

[waksupi]

I read through your original post again and it seems you are concerned with hunting and hitting the target such as a deer? If that is the case then the "hold time" and follow through as Waksupi mentioned above are going to be fast. If you are concerned with bulls eye shooting that is different and I watch the older Schuetzen shooters and they have a very hard time holding the front sight steady even with a palm rest. Maybe the wooden flint substitute and a laser bore sighter shining on a wall will help to steady things. Have someone watch the red dot move and mark the limits with a pencil maybe?

In shutzen, most are consciously letting the rifle drift, hopefully in a figure 8, and squeeze when they are confident the shot will be in the bull when it goes off. Pass shooting, as it were. I don't know of any who really try to hold dead center to shoot in that game.

[indian joe]

I read through your original post again and it seems you are concerned with hunting and hitting the target such as a deer? If that is the case then the "hold time" and follow through as Waksupi mentioned above are going to be fast. If you are concerned with bulls eye shooting that is different and I watch the older Schuetzen shooters and they have a very hard time holding the front sight steady even with a palm rest. Maybe the wooden flint substitute and a laser bore sighter shining on a wall will help to steady things. Have someone watch the red dot move and mark the limits with a pencil maybe?

Holding steady? -----my first competitive muzzleloader shoot I got a second on countback to one of the top three shooters in Aus at that time ( I had been burning quite a bit of powder at home and my eyes were still good ) I was duly congratulated but not really that overawed because it was a sitting event and I had long held the view (expressed at the time too) that any fool can shoot off a rest - standing up is what sorts em out - I am solid built and was fit at the time so sitting for me was / is next best to a benchrest - I do well sitting - but I said to this bloke I just cant hold it steady offhand - well the front sight will hang right on the mark for maybe two seconds but I cant get the shot away that fast without pulling it - he said two things - 1) you just described how Daniel Boon won his famous match - he was able to get it done in that small space of time 2) the rest of us cant do that and if you think you will ever get to where you can hold steady on the mark offhand - you are dreaming and will get frustrated enough to give this game away - NO - its all about controlled wobbling - the more you practice offhand the smaller pattern your sights will weave on the target and the less often you will pull what you know is a bad shot - good scores are not about shooting tens - its about not shooting a bad shot EVER - he went on - have a look at a target - if you splatter ten shots inside the 7 ring - you will shoot 80+, that will place you in a lot of club comps - hunting is different - sure - but how many times do we claim the game with a bad shot?
The seven ring on our 100yard target is 8 inches across - probably half the guys on this forum will believe they can shoot a 4 inch group at 100yards offhand - I say baloney, thats 95 - if you can do that you are a world class rifle shot - they are scarce upon the ground!

[Hickory]

When I learned to shoot a flint rifle years and years ago. I found if I pulled the rifle as hard as I could into my shoulder while I was pulling the trigger I could not flinch while the shot was going off. Of course you have to focus on the front sight at the same time, and follow through keeping your eyes open. I hunted for 35 years with a flint, taking much game. The toolman.

This is the method I use along with the aid of a sling.
I am a right hand, left eye dominant flintlock shooter. It takes extra concentration to shoot through the flash inches in front of your face!

[oldracer]

Waksupi is correct in his last post and as I mentioned that is how I was taught to shoot. I didn't start muzzle loading until I was 66 or so and the arthritis has already set in and my blood circulation around my heart was getting worse all the time (finally a quad bypass 5 years ago) so I could never hold steady! Now and then I try to and get that dreaded "bulls eye fixation" and I have to make myself stop it!!!!! Oh yeah we are not allowed to use a sling.

[indian joe]

Follow through. If you aren't following through you'll always shoot low, you're dropping the shot, just like with a bow. Precisely as the others have mentioned about seeing the muzzle flash.

I disagree with that - we dont all flinch it low - most of my pulled shots go high and right - on a really bad day there maybe another one in every ten go low at about 4 o clock . Calling it follow through is kinda generous - politically correct - its a flinch does the damage. Blink eye shut -- yank trigger -- go into recoil mode before the gun starts moving -- miss target ---- it can get quite funny watching from the sidelines when somebody pulls a flinch on a empty gun or a hangfire - (cruel aint we!!!)

[Themoose]

Just an update... I have been working with the woden flint, not as much as I should, but I'm trying to make it a habit... I have gathered a supply of roundballs to go with a lighter practice load... got a couple of set screws to replace my touchhole liner to use with only powder in the pan practice... and I was able to get out with this good weather to the range and do some shooting with a vintage .22 with iron sights... soon found that my back was giving me a lot of pain for any prolonged practice... I had forgotten my basics... had to work on stance, breathing and follow thru... I just aquired the rifle at a lgs and sighted in with a rest @ 25 yards... my offhand groups were pretty dismal for the first 2 or 3, but began to tighten up... also I was able to focus more on the front sight and was pretty much able to call the shot placement by trying to focus on follow thru... Quit the standing shooting as the pain was getting to me and shot a lot seated without a rest... practice, practice... there is hope for me afterall.... I've got a lot to work on, but thanks to all of your help at least I have hope and a plan to get better... Thanks again to all who contributed.

Kindest regards,

TheMoose

[rfd]

i would recommend dropping down to 50 grains and a patched ball, 50 yards distance. offhand shooting is an art of sorts, but there are some basics to it no matter what longarm yer hefting (and the gun's balance does matter).

for practice, if possible, don't load the tube but do prime the pan - you'll be missing the recoil, which wouldn't be much if you do the right thing and load light, as you should), and you'll be getting used to what matters most: that fireball explosion going off a few inches from yer glasses and work on yer follow through.

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[indian joe]

[QUOTE=rfd;4296571]
for practice, if possible, don't load the tube but do prime the pan - you'll be missing the recoil, which wouldn't be much if you do the right thing and load light, as you should), and you'll be getting used to what matters most: that fireball explosion going off a few inches from yer glasses and work on yer follow through.



Just proves we all different I guess ! This would not help me much - if at all - mine is a recoil induced FLINCH ..... aquired years ago shooting heavy shotgun loads as a kid ...they say "old habits die hard" so my subconscious message became ....pull trigger = get smashed ... doesnt matter the level of recoil once the pattern is established.

I figured out what I was doing, shooting a 22/250 at night (spotlight shooting foxes) ..... see the muzzle flash = dead fox .....no muzzle flash = no fox

With the flinter the flash in the pan was never an issue (for me) .. I dont recall ever being conscious of seeing it .. never .. never seen the hammer fall .. not on flinter or caplock nor the lever guns I have shot a lot ... hear the clunk - clank - click - however you like to describe the noise of it. Whats crucial (for me) is seeing the sight picture clear after the trigger breaks. Dryfire practice helps - just concentrating on eye open seeing the front sight where its sposed to be after the trigger break - somebody earlier suggested a spring piston air rifle ..yep theres enough recoil in that mechanism to take you off target after it fires .. ten rounds a day with a 22 helps .. but for me its all about seeing that front sight after the trigger break.

I used to be able to do this - Picture below was shot with my CVA pennsylvania flinter at the Majura range Canberra - sitting position at 100yards - no spotting scopes allowed and I didnt figure the wind - by the time I had eight gone I could see the group of holes off to the right - got kinda mad at meself for not picking it so I held off to the left for those last two in the black - still wish to this day I just held centre and finished that group - those two woulda gone plumb in the middle - that woulda been one purty ten shot group!!! - those two 9's got me into third place ..................coulda shoulda woulda huh .....look at tha flag ya idiot!!!! .....


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