Marlin 1894 45LC arrived

[DOUBLEJK]

Got it from the gunsmith late last night....sure purty...has the 24" octagonal barrel...
Took it out ta the pond this morning n run a box of 454190's loaded over 9.5Gr. Unique thru it...
function was flawless...the trigger's not too shabby fer a new un'...bout 5lbs. crisp with no creep...
However the sights stink....full buckhorn with a huge U notch with a white diamond painted on the blade fer the rear....n a big gold bead up front...
Groups at 50yds. ran round 3"...n with the rear all the way up were 2" er so low....had to use a 8" black bull to see any of it around that big bead...
Moved back to 100 n couldn't see beans round that big gold bead a shinin' up front....was shootin' at an 8" steel swingin' disc.... Kentucky elevatin' I took 10 offhand shots fast at it anyways...never did hit it...was sure fun n hit close but no cigar...
Serious works gonna have to wait fer better sights....
Now what to get....better irons....square notch rear post er ramp front?
er that peep imashooter has on his....looks mighty temptin'....

[Rrusse11]

DoubleJ,
Got one myself now 2 days ago, second hand and much reduced because someone had removed the Marlin bullseye in the stock and replaced it, BADLY, with half a 45LC case. I've put an elderly Weaver K2.5 on it, and with a start load of 15gr of Alliant 410 under a Lee 250 RF, circa 1150fps, started to get on the paper plate at 50yds afore the test rounds ran out.... and the sun went down. Looks like itsa gonna shoot!
Nice handling rifle with that long heavy barrel. And the action is set up so that COAL looks like it'll run all the way to 1.7. Picked up a hunnert cases on the way home and got enuff loaded now for some more serious work on the Chrony and the sights. Love them Marlins!
Cheers,
R* :D

[DOUBLEJK]

Russe11
Yep....mighty fine lookin' rifle they are....
I have a beautiful brass MM325KTGC mold with a .410" nose to crimp...
I aquired from 475-480 awhile back and it loads at 1.720" oal... it feeds it ifin' I push the round coming outa the mag tube down with my finger at the shell head such that it will go under the bolt lips.......so figure 1.7" aughta go like grease....
Could sure scope it for load development n go with that williams peep fer huntin' n nastalgic good looks....
Keep me posted if ya come up with a tack drivin' load outa yer's...is it ballard er microgroove?

[Rrusse11]

JJ,
Just back from a workout at the range,,,,,,. Loaded all the Lee 250RF's I had on hand with some Alliant 410. Old Weaver 2.5 with the dot, now that's a nice thing :) , and did some clocking. At 50yds she's shooting well! BIG holes on the paper plate, about 2-3" with 18gr and a CCI-300primer. With a clean barrel the Chrony bounced around a bit until the lube settled in. And a noticeable difference in velocities with the dozen or so partially sized brass versus full sized new.
Pushing 1400fps or about 1100#'s of ME. Clearly not enough pressure to get the case sealing, lots of powder flash on the cases, and not much in the way of consistency in the ballistics yet. But by the end of 30 rounds, I'd certainly riddled the plate, and could start picking new areas, put a hole, shoot for the hole kind of deal.
I use one of those plastic rests and a bag under the foreend, no rear bag, so I was well pleased and feeling confident about where the next shot was going. In the fading light a couple rounds at the 100yds would have been in 3-4".
Easy shooting, and I'll procede on up the scale from here, should be no problem getting close to 2000'#s, I suspect the hardcast will start tapping out at around 1700-1800fps, and I'll get leading beyond that.
I've tweaked and polished the action a bit already, and it's got one of the better triggers I've come across in a stock Marlin. She'll clearly respond to some load refinement and deserves some care and attention, I'm sure I'll be able to get her down to 1-2" at 50yds without too much trouble., 8)
First thing to do is find the mould, and get some more boolits happening!
Cheers,
R*2

[DOUBLEJK]

Shot it with a scope tonight with new loads that had not been used before...10Grs. Unique...CCI300...#454190's seated to 1.610" n taper crimped tight enough I can't move em deeper pressin' hard on the bench with em...all charges were dispensed with the new Pact digital dispenser n within' .1 Gr.
Had tried em with a roll crimp before n didn't get the shockin' results I got tonight...
2 of the 10 I fired had this 1894 spittin' powder gas back around the hammer n on my face....brass on all 10 was real sooty like it didn't seal the chamber...the 2 that shot back were a bit worse n the other 8...

anyone else run into this with a 1894 Marlin? er is mine a exception?:???:

[StarMetal]

My cowboy doesn't do that. I load 9.0 grs of Unique with a 255 RCBS SWC. That 10 grs is getting to be a warm load with a 250 some gr bullet for a 45 LC. Don't get me wrong, not for a rifle, but for Colts SA's. Anways being a warm load the case should have expanded more then it did and make a better seal. The reason the cases are sooty is the 45LC is a straight case and in most these leveraction the original rounds were tapered or slightly bottlenecked and they sealed even at low pressures. I can't understand why your cases didn't with 10 grs of Unique.

Joe

[Scrounger]

Shot it with a scope tonight with new loads that had not been used before...10Grs. Unique...CCI300...#454190's seated to 1.610" n taper crimped tight enough I can't move em deeper pressin' hard on the bench with em...all charges were dispensed with the new Pact digital dispenser n within' .1 Gr.
Had tried em with a roll crimp before n didn't get the shockin' results I got tonight...
2 of the 10 I fired had this 1894 spittin' powder gas back around the hammer n on my face....brass on all 10 was real sooty like it didn't seal the chamber...the 2 that shot back were a bit worse n the other 8...

anyone else run into this with a 1894 Marlin? er is mine a exception?:???:

Your load is too underpowered to blow the brass out and seal the chamber. Add powder. That cartridge in that rifle is capable of exceeding .44 magnum ballistics. At lower pressure. It will equal the ballistics most of these guys are shooting with their .45-70s. Not full bore .45-70 but the level most guys stop at because it's starting to kick hard. That's how good the .45 Colt is.

[StarMetal]

Not to get into a pissing contest with Scrounger, but that load isn't too underpowered. Speer No. Nine reloading manual has an extra section in it for TC and Ruger Blackhawks in 45LC and the max load for a 250-255 gr bullet using Unique is 11.0 grs, only one grain more then your 10.0. Hodgdons No 26 Manual has a section for what they calle heavy loaded 45LC loads and 260 gr jacketed max load is 11.5. So 10 grs of Unique is not underpowered by any means. 9.0 grs in my Smith Mod 25 puts me at about 950 fps and 10 grs would put me in the high 1000's. Definately not 44 mag range, but also not underpowered. The old Colt peacemaker shoot for a velocity of around 800-850 max so the max load I see for he Colts with 250-255 gr bullets using Unique is 8.5. Yes your marlin will take hotter loads, but I'm just concerned that 10 grs of Unique didn't seal those casing of yours better.

Joe

[Scrounger]

Not to get into a pissing contest with Scrounger, but that load isn't too underpowered. Speer No. Nine reloading manual has an extra section in it for TC and Ruger Blackhawks in 45LC and the max load for a 250-255 gr bullet using Unique is 11.0 grs, only one grain more then your 10.0. Hodgdons No 26 Manual has a section for what they calle heavy loaded 45LC loads and 260 gr jacketed max load is 11.5. So 10 grs of Unique is not underpowered by any means. 9.0 grs in my Smith Mod 25 puts me at about 950 fps and 10 grs would put me in the high 1000's. Definately not 44 mag range, but also not underpowered. The old Colt peacemaker shoot for a velocity of around 800-850 max so the max load I see for he Colts with 250-255 gr bullets using Unique is 8.5. Yes your marlin will take hotter loads, but I'm just concerned that 10 grs of Unique didn't seal those casing of yours better.

Joe

No contest. The results on the case indicate underpowered load. No matter what the book says, in that chamber (oversize???), with that bullet (undersized???), that powder (stale???), and that primer (bad ignition???), the result was an underpowered round. Add a grain of powder and see if the problem doesn't go away.

[MARCORVET]

One other possibility is that the brass has been work hardened. If this is the problem, you won't get a good seal. Also, you said that you did not have this problem when you rool crimped. Try out about ten crimped each way, this may answer the question.

[StarMetal]

Marcorvet is on to something there about the rounds that worked fine before with the regular roll crimp (Scrounger show that you are wrong about the primers, the powder being bad, and the loads being wimpy...and the books aren't wrong). Now I think a couple things, one that taper crimp is sizing the bullet down, so it's undersized and gas is blowing by and not creating a good bullet to bore seal to expand the case against the chamber walls and two, the case may be hard, but I don't think they are if they worked before. Go back to the roll crimp. I never was a fan of taper crimping.

Joe

[Rrusse11]

DoubleJ,
As Scrounger points out,,,, not enuff pressure in ur gun/chamber/cartridge combo. What I've been doing to good advantage is to decap seperately, Lee dedicated decapper die, neck size only with the sizer, and then use the Lee Factory Crimp die set up so that it only partially sizes the case. This means that just above the case web the OD is running .485 . The round actually ends up with quite a taper,.472 with the boolit seated in the neck, to that rather generous .485 at the base. Chambers fine is my rifle,,, and with 7gr of Green Dot under the Lee 250RF with a COAL of 1.675 is giving excellent accuracy at 50yds at ~ 1000fps from the 24" barrel, and NO powder blowback on a low pressure round.
And I have to agree with Scrounger,,,,,, loaded up the cartridge becomes a 'mini' 45/70. I've pushed the 250RF to 2000fps with some Lil Gun but leading problems as one would expect from a PB boolit. I'm eyeing off the Saeco #945, a C452-255-SWC as being the boolit for a high velocity round.
Cheers,
R*2

[StarMetal]

Russell

Why did the previous roll crimp load with 9.5 grs of Unique, 1/2 gr less, shoot fine then the ones with the 10 grs and taper crimp. You're both wrong. Chambers just don't grow and shrink and 10 grs of Unique isn't a wimpy load and the issue here is not making a mini 45-70 out of this fellows gun. The issue is black sooty cases and gas blow back pass the bolt.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Well just got off the phone with Hornady's Tech lab. You're not going to like what they said. First, 10 grs of Unique in the 45LC with 250-255 bullet is not a wimpy load. They stated that 7.5 is max for a Colt single action. Yeah I know, we're talking about a rifle here. Second they said that taper crimping is the problem and it's sizing the bullet down too much for the bore and it's also letting the bullet start to fast and not creating the pressure the roll crimp is. So Scrounger and I are both right in ways. I'm right in that the 10 gr load isn't wimpy and Art is right that there isn't enough pressure. Yes there isn't enough pressure with the taper crimp, but there is with the roll crimp. \

Now the part some of you won't like is Hornady said taper crimp is one of the worse things invented and they said that folks got the wrong idea of what it was invented for. They said we think it was invented for a good tight crimp that would let rounds that headspace on the case mouth, such as 45acp, headspace and still have a good crimp. Wrong, says Hornady. They said it was invented for tight chambers near the mouth of the case. With a roll crimp the case fits tight, so they come up with the taper crimp. He also thinks that the brass springs back from the bullet some after crimping too.

I'd say go back to your roll crimp and load some up and shoot them and report back.

Joe

[Rrusse11]

Russell

Why did the previous roll crimp load with 9.5 grs of Unique, 1/2 gr less, shoot fine then the ones with the 10 grs and taper crimp. You're both wrong. Chambers just don't grow and shrink and 10 grs of Unique isn't a wimpy load and the issue here is not making a mini 45-70 out of this fellows gun. The issue is black sooty cases and gas blow back pass the bolt.

Joe

Guessing here that the roll crimp gives higher pressure afore boolit release. And while the load may be 'book',,,,,, the top pressures I've seen for a Contender/Ruger loads run 30,000 psi, I'm extrapolating here from data I've got that 10gr of Unique would be running ~ half that. The modern Marlin 1894 should be able to take upwards of 40,000, certainly it handles those kind of pressures in the 44Mag without batting an eyelash. With a generous chamber and a full sized case, my own full size Lee die brings 'em down to a .468 OD,,,,,, it's a lot of brass expansion afore the throat seals.
I was having the same blowback problem even with fairly stiff loads of Lil Gun before I changed tacks and now miminally size all my rounds.
The Green Dot load I'm using, 7.0gr under the 250RF, is 'snappy' enough to give a good seal, and to obturate the air cooled boolit enuff for good fit and excellent accuracy,,,,, within short ranges. Minute of Clay Bird at 50yds, and then procede to pick off the shards,,,,,,. Now the goal is to get that same MOCB offhand consistently.
The other potential issue, or fix, is to increase the COAL by crimping in that first lube groove. My action will take, with some minor mods,
1.735". You may have to ease the loading gate to get a long cartridge in, but my accuracy load with the above is 1.675", not quite engraving in the throat.
Cheers,
R*2

[Rrusse11]

Well just got off the phone with Hornady's Tech lab. You're not going to like what they said. First, 10 grs of Unique in the 45LC with 250-255 bullet is not a wimpy load. They stated that 7.5 is max for a Colt single action. Yeah I know, we're talking about a rifle here. Second they said that taper crimping is the problem and it's sizing the bullet down too much for the bore and it's also letting the bullet start to fast and not creating the pressure the roll crimp is. So Scrounger and I are both right in ways. I'm right in that the 10 gr load isn't wimpy and Art is right that there isn't enough pressure. Yes there isn't enough pressure with the taper crimp, but there is with the roll crimp. \

Now the part some of you won't like is Hornady said taper crimp is one of the worse things invented and they said that folks got the wrong idea of what it was invented for. They said we think it was invented for a good tight crimp that would let rounds that headspace on the case mouth, such as 45acp, headspace and still have a good crimp. Wrong, says Hornady. They said it was invented for tight chambers near the mouth of the case. With a roll crimp the case fits tight, so they come up with the taper crimp. He also thinks that the brass springs back from the bullet some after crimping too.

I'd say go back to your roll crimp and load some up and shoot them and report back.

Joe

Ahhhhhh, had my reply in before I saw ur response here Joe, lol,,,,, confirmation of my own opinion, {;o).
I'll still recommend you try the minimal sizing approach too,,,,, much easier on the brass as well.
Interesting stuff on the taper vs roll crimp,,,,,, who'd you talk to ? Lionel? He knows his stuff!
Cheers,
Richard

[StarMetal]

Yeah well Russell you know I got orginal 45 LC Winchester brass from 1972 and in those early years I was shooting 250 rounds of the stuff a week for years. That was with a heavy roll crimp in the generous crimp groove that the RCBS 255 SWC has and I haven't lost very many cases in that time, what is it, like 30 some years? I do anneal them once in awhile. I think too many fellows are hung up on how wonderful taper crimp is. Either my roll crimping isn't bad or I must have the best WW 45LC brass ever made.

Ok on your 10 grs of Unique load is only about halfway to that 30,000 psi you've seen the 45LC take, you're wrong again. According to just one book, the Hodgdon No 26, 10.5 grs of Unique gives 24,800 psi. Russell that sure as heck is more then halfway to 30,000. So I'm telling you that 10 grs isn't a wimpy load. It is when you taper crimp down the diameter of the bullet and it starts to move too easily and early. Why are you still stuck on hotrodding this guy's 45LC load? Maybe he just wants a good plinking load,not a wild boar killer.

Joe

[Scrounger]

RRussell, go stand in the corner, you've been a very bad boy... All together, everyone: "All Hail The King"...

[StarMetal]

I've been shooting 45 LC for alot of years. I've shot target loads, plinking loads, jacketed loads, lead loads. I've shot it out of single action Colts, Rugers, and replicas, 92 lever actions, 94 lever actions, and Marlin 94 lever actions. I've been using Unique for as many years, possibly longer. So I think I know alittle about 45LC's and Unique powder. You can't win because you're not right. Go ahead and call Speer or Hornady, or any of the powder manufactures up and ask them is 10 grs of Unique is a wimpy load with 250 gr or heavier bullets. Ask them if Unique is a good powder to hotrod the 45 LC with. Then come back and tell me what you find. If you guys don't know exactly what you're talking about in this case don't go recommending some fellow that has problems to hotrod his load using Unique. I'm not talking about everyone on the forum here either. We're not discussing cooking recipes where the only hazard of a failure is just a bad cooked or tasting product, we're talking about losing one's digits, eyes, possibly life here. Forgive me if I'm concerned about what this fellow is doing and I'm trying to help him.

Joe

[DOUBLEJK]

Wow...Thanks fer all the good feedback here....you fella's been busy while I was werkin'...:)
I have some of the suspect loads still in the box....gonna go pull some n mic the diamiter as that taper crimp sure coulda squeezed em smaller.....they were sized .452" before loadin'.....also it is a old can of Unique....probably 16yrs. er so..that might be it also....the brass was the 2nd goround for this box of Starline...
Got a new mold last week from good ole Dan at MM's....300Gr OFP with a .390" nose to crimp and a 70% meplat...have hopes it'll be a shooter in this new Marlin...will post pics a it also...
And Thanks all for your idea's....we'll get er shootin' yet....:)

[DOUBLEJK]

OK got 1 pulled n measured.....4515" on base band .4512" on 2nd band and .4505" on the edge of the nose....taper crimp die did resize the boolit n with a taper too...sure coulda caused a lower than expected pressure...
Its the boolit on the left below....the 1 on the right is the new MM's 300Gr....

http://www.geocities.com/doublejk2/boolits.JPG

[Rrusse11]

Joe,
I don't quite know where you get the idea that I'm into "hotrodding"
DoubleJ's load. I AGREED with the 'expert opinion', that the taper crimp was more than likely the problem. You may also note that my load of 7gr of Green Dot is approx. in the same kind of ball park as a medium pressure 'cowboy load'.
I based my evaluation of pressure on the 2003 Alliant data that 8gr of Unique under a 250 gr boolit gives 11,800cup. Increase the powder charge by 25%, pressure goes up approx 50%,,,,, let's say fudge factor-- it's hitting circa 20,000 cup. If you accept that many manuals give ~30,000cup as a safe rating for Rugers and Contenders loads,,,, it's still well within a very safe margin of error. Ok, not half, say 2/3rds. Hardly what I would call a 'digit destructor load'. Now in ur old SA Colt, NOT recommended. In DoubleJ's M1894, again if you accept that the action ez accomadates 40,000 cup in the 44Mag, then it's still, by any reasonable evaluation, quite safe.
I will cheerfully admit that I don't have ur vast experience with the 45Colt. But I have safely pushed a 250gr boolit to 2000fps, NOT with Unique however. And simply offer some ot the techniques I use to help with the powder blowback problem,,,,, minimal sizing, and with my increased COAL, and therefore increased case capacity, less pressure.
Starline has a section on their site on annealing case necks for precisely the 'cowboy action' type loads and this specific problem. You yourself have apparently done same from time to time. Softening the neck undoubtedly helps seal the chamber on detonation.
As Scrounger points out, the cartridge is capable of a wide range of purposes/performance, as does the 45/70. Both ends of the spectrum are good fun, Your Mileage Will Vary,,,,,,, {:o).
Cheers,
R*2

[StarMetal]

Ok Russell, you don't have to stand in the corner. Maybe the diagnosis should have been stated as "bullet diameter too small to seal the bore" instead of "underpowered round, increase the powder charge by one grain as Scrounger stated".

You are corrected in you didn't say anything about hotrodding, and yes when I was younger and foolished I hotrodded the 45LC. Not to say that is bad, but it is if you over do it, and before anyone jumps on that statement, what I mean is you can increase the 45LC's performance pretty much over the standard "Colt" load, in firearms that can handle the extra pressure, but you don't have to bring it all the ways up there with 454 Casual. You can do that if you own a firearm in 454 Casual, but what's the sense when you can just use the 454 case. I firmly believe that if you need more power get a bigger or more powerful cartridge.

I enjoy my Marlin 45LC Cowboy with just standard run of the mill plinking loads. I will admit my favorite load of 9.0 grs of Unique with a 255 gr bullet isn't exactly a Colt load, but then again it's not a 454 Casual load either. Ten grains of Unique things are beginning to start cooking. Unique builds pressure pretty fast. It's not a good powder for magnum loads. Better choices are WW296, H110, 2400, and 4227. A real good safe Colt load is 18 grs of 4227 with the 250/255 gr bullet, supposely used alot by Hank Williams Jr. Another favorate is a small amount of Red Dot, which I can't think of the grains right now as I don't like it in a 45LC because it doesn't take up enough of the cavernous space in that round. Mike Venturino says Red Dot is his favorite. I have tried Universal Clays, although it did burn cleaner, I never got the same accuracy from it as I did Unique.

Joe

[Bullshop]

Joe
I used to use 8.5gn Unique in the 44 and 45 with 250gn bullets. Then on Dave Scoville's advice I tried 800X and that has become my powder of choice for the 45. Looking through my old records I find a 100 yard target with a 3.5"group the load
case - star line
bullet - Lee 250 RF BHN-20 452"
primer - CCI#300
powder - 9gn 800X
crimped in Lee factory crimp die
More recently I got one of the newly offered 6 cylender 45/300/rfgc molds. Dropping to 8.5gn and cast in WW air cooled and sized .454" this bullet shoots equaly well but offers a bit more clout on the receiving end. This is not a dence powder so fills the case well is easy to light and burns fairly clean. It only comes in half pound cans or five pound kegs. The containers being standerd size they only hold half the weight in this low dencity powder. If you try it I know you will like it.
BIC/BS

[StarMetal]

Daniel,

There are alot of good powders for the 45LC. At one time I use to use 700x for heavier loads. I'll tell you why I use Unique. One reason it truely is Unique, as you can use it a wide range of cartridges and shotshells. Number is the more important to me though, and that is because 9.0 grs of Unique topped with my RCBS 255 gr SWC, rolled crimped with the standard Redding seating die, shoots into just about an inch at 50 yards. What's it do at 100 yards? Well I can "consistantly" knock down soda cans at 100 yards with it. I've showed quite a few of my non-believer friends that before they would believe me. This is with a Mod 25 Smith, older version with the pinned barrel, which by the was is 8 3/8 inches long, and all this with open issue sights. So I figure, why mess with that kind of results. I'll just stick with Unique and since Alliant has cleaned it's burning charactoristics up, I like it even better.

Joe

[C1PNR]

I haven't tried the 'X powders in 45 Colt yet. BUT (you knew there was one coming, didn't you), my all time favorite load in the S&W 25-2 x 6" is 200 H&G #68 with 4.1 700X and WLP in a "mix" of cases.

I get a little more time now, and the possibility of trying some AR cases, who knows what kind of good stuff may arise! Even try the H&G #130 200 gr mould as well. And probably the 452460 Lyman.

And I'll certainly remember to try the 800X too.

[Rrusse11]

"Ok Russell, you don't have to stand in the corner"

Whew!

Thanks Joe! http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/smilies/lol.gif

R*2

Ps. Now iffen ya' wanna' tawk hotroddin',,,,,,, my gun guru and I had a good discussion and examination of my 454 Casull reamer,,,,, and AA1680, and the Saeco C255-452-SWC mould which should arrive tomorrow,,,,,. Amd suitable pressure limits,,,,, and COAL in the 1894 action,,,,,,. He won't do it,,,,,, but I'm gettin' enuff info, advice, and tips, to have a go myself one of these days. Starline brass on hand,,,, dies,
hunnerts of GM205M's,,,,,,,,. The Lee C300-452-WFN is casting well,,,,,.
See if I can get that to 2000fps safely.

[StarMetal]

Russell

Please be very careful in working up your hot 45LC. I was on an unknown forum and the whole discussion was which rifle is better the Mod 94 Win or the Mod 94 Marlin. Well that's kind of like the debate on Ford and Chevy, but one thing they agreed on, was that the Win is definately the stronger of the two actions. I would have never thought that and I'm even a Win fan. So at any rate becareful.

Joe

[Rrusse11]

Russell

Please be very careful in working up your hot 45LC. I was on an unknown forum and the whole discussion was which rifle is better the Mod 94 Win or the Mod 94 Marlin. Well that's kind of like the debate on Ford and Chevy, but one thing they agreed on, was that the Win is definately the stronger of the two actions. I would have never thought that and I'm even a Win fan. So at any rate becareful.

Joe

Joe,
I've seen somewhere on the net some test results with the Win 94's, the Marlin 1894, and the Puma 1892. I was surprised to that the Marlin crapped out first, it's all to do with the geometry of the locking lug IMO. The modern 1892 clone was the winner. The other surprise was that the Win 94 Big Bore is only marginally better than the standard W94. A 'standard' pre 64 Win 94 was the winner in the rifle caliber destruct tests.
That said, I'm NOT looking for Casull pressures, just some more case capacity with a longer COAL and suitable throat. The Casull brass is thicker, and after all , only .100" longer. It's the same formula as the 38Spec vs. the 357Mag. My testing with the Colt45 and some various bullet weights has me thinking that the 250gr range might be the optimum. I won't be setting the world on fire with greatly improved performance over what I've already acheived,,,,,,,, but it sure is an innerestin' exercise, and I'm havin' fun! Thank you for your concern, I will be carefull indeed.
Cheers,
Richard