Sizing Die Tolerances?

[Jager]

As I slowly acquire the stuff I need to begin my boolit-casting journey, I'm still rather on the fence regarding sizing and lubing.

I don't discount that I might explore powder coating at some point. But the process seems a little bit fiddly. And I confess to liking the looks of a classic lead boolit a lot more than the high-tech, modern "painted" look that powder coating brings to the table. I know that - the aesthetics of how a round looks - might be a pretty sorry reason for such a choice. But, oh well.

Pan lubing doesn't sing to me, either. Even more fiddly!

Which kind of leaves me with the classic "sizing" options. Twenty-five bucks for the Lee sizer on the one hand. $529 for a Star sizer on the other. With the RCBS LAM2 and Lyman 4500 somewhere in the middle.

I know the Star is the bee's knees. Even just watching YouTube videos, you can tell that. But man, oh man. That's some serious coin!

Between the LAM2 and the 4500, everything else being equal, I'd go with RCBS. I know they have a better warranty and better customer service. Alas, a LAM2 with heater and one die is around $265. I can get the 4500 with included heater (the rod that plugs in the back, not the plate which mounts underneath), one die, and a stick of lube from Amazon for $200. That seems like the best value.

My question - while I continue to bounce around between all these options - is how precise are these dies?

I had originally assumed they must be quite precise, as getting a bullet of correct diameter would seem to be at the heart of good bullet casting. But then I saw a post complaining about a die that didn't deliver the expected dimensions.

Is there a lot of variation? Or can one buy a die with fair confidence that you're getting exactly what you need?

[Jack Stanley]

When I started on this I faced the same choices that you mention . As far as the cost of things I weighed the cost of the machine against how much of my time was required to make the pile of bullets I needed .

As things worked out I bought the RCBS machine because some of my bullets and loads needed gas checks . The push through dies were not available then unless you used a dowel and a mallet to push them through .

As my income increased I found a used Star with several dies for the princely sum of a hundred twenty-five bucks . The increased production was not a parlor trick it saved me a lot of time in making bullets so I had more time for practice and competition .

As far as the size of the dies themselves , RCBS products I've bought have never been under stated size and no more than a thousanths over . Star have never been under or more than a half a thou over . The current Lee dies that thread into a press may be a little more but then they might be right on the money . I guess it just depends on who's working QC that day .

Lyman ??? From what I've seen of their QC and customer service , there is a saying that fits them well . You pay your money and take your chances .


Precise diameter for the job at had may be an experiment until it works . I have several different thirty caliber size dies from different makers and no two are exact . But they do keep several rifles well fed .

Hope that helps , Jack

[Teemu]

I've been had bad luck with Lee's sizing dies. .223 was .221 custom made .456 was .459. Those were badest. There was few others also but toleraces where smaller
I got push trough sizing system and dies from NOE and those are been quite accurate like should. And that fits on Lee's Breech Lock Challenger Press which I have

[KenT7021]

I've used Lyman sizing dies for many years and Lyman lube sizers.All of the dies I have size to the diameter marked on the die.The dies I own were purchased from the late 50's up until a few months ago.The Lyman lube sizers I own are a 45,2 450's,and a 4500.They all function as they should.I would personally apply the chance taking comment above to Lee instead of Lyman.I understand that negative comments about Lee products offend many people.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

How many boolits are you gonna shoot per year?
How much spare time do you want to spend on sizing?
How much can you afford?

These are the questions you need to answer to decide what sizers/lubesizers will best suit you.
I wouldn't worry too much about manufacturer tolerance...while getting a new die that is out of tolerance is possible, and some say it happens, I guess? I can say, all of the new dies's I bought have been within tolerance, that's fifty some dies when I include Star, Lyman, Lee, and custom made sizer dies. I have got a few used ones that weren't as advertised, but I suspect that they were modified by a end user and not out of tolerance when sold as new.

If I could only own one lubesizer, it would be a Star. I do own a star, I own 4 other lubesizers as well...and I have some Lee dies...and I have a adaptor to use Lyman dies in a reloading press, just like a Lee die.

So, what I'm saying, if you have the cash to buy a Star, that is the one to buy. A new star is $529? I don't think so, Last time I looked they were $339 ...and used Stars pop up here (in S&S) every once in a while.
Three months ago, I recall seeing two different Stars by two different sellers go for less than $150 each. Someone must have needed money for the holidays?

Another thing...Buying a Star and dies is capital equipment (just like a gun), they don't lose much value.

[lightman]

JonB offers some good advice. Try to look forward at what you want to do and decide from there. A Star is faster but more expensive. The Lyman and RCBS both work well but are a little slower. It looks like your $529 price for a new Magma Star is about right for the machine, die, top punch, lube and a heated base. I recently bought a very nice used original Star for $250. I've seen them on here and on EBay for that much and even a little less. A member here, Lathesmith, makes very nice stuff for the Star and is a little less expensive then other places.

To answer your original question, the tolerance that I have seen in Star, Lyman and RCBS dies are close. Those are the only brands that I have used.

[Jager]

Those are good questions, Jon. And they are very much at the forefront as I wrestle with what I'll do as far as lubing and sizing

I don't discount the Star. It's clearly the machine to have if you want the best and fastest. Especially for a dedicated caster who already has moulds for, and casts boolits for, nearly everything they shoot. For someone coming in from the shallow end, with one mould, it becomes a slightly more complicated question. Sure, I expect I'll be buying other moulds for other calibers and other bullet styles. But that'll be a process in its own right.

I got the $529 price from the Magma website... $338 for the machine itself, $52.50 for one die, $18.50 for a bullet punch, and $120 for the heated base. I realize the heater isn't strictly required - but everything I read suggests you run into quick limits (like having to run soft lube) if you don't have one. So when comparing prices I've tried to approach it from what one minimally, but realistically, needs - and have included a heater with each option.

[DocSavage]

I have 2 RCBS sizers LAM 1 and 2 like them both though as others have said a bit slow.. I use RCBS and Lyman dies and in the years I been casting my own had 1 die that was under size a.357 dia turned out to be .354 dia though I waa going to rip the sized off my bench. RocDoc makes a plate that you can attach your size to and use an iron to heat up your sizer should be cheaper than a heater.

[Animal]

I'll chime in because I just received and started using a new .451 sizing die from Lee. I found that the die was sizing closer to .449. This was a bit odd, but easily fixable. It just required a little time with a dowel rod, some sand paper and a leather strap. I'm not sure that this is a Lee problem, or if it is simply an industry problem.
Now, the Lee system works. I've used it exclusively with low pressure hand-gun cartridges. It is also a fast way to size, if you don't consider the drying time for the lube. It is also inexpensive.
However, I am trying to branch out and am starting to use more traditional methods with a traditional sizer. I don't see this as a necessity. It is just time to try something different.

PS. Bear in mind that different alloys will have a different amount of "spring back". The bullet can literally grow after sizing.

[NoZombies]

As you're getting started, I would look for a used lube sizer with a low cost of entry. If you like the look of the lead bullets, then the Lee push-through dies probably aren't the answer either, since the require either PC, tumble lube, or pan lubing, two of which you've already discounted, and the third (tumble lubing) would cover the bullet in something anyways, therefore negating it for the same reason you discount PC.

I've got more lube sizers than anyone could need, but I still use a Lyman 450 fairly regularly. Often you can find a 450 used for less than $100 delivered. Soft-ish lube should be fine for starting out, and there are ways to add heat cheaply. At the end of the day, if you find the 450 to be too slow or otherwise not to your liking, you could sell it for almost no loss to someone else, and use that money towards the star. By that point you'll know at least if you're going to stick with casting, and if lubing and sizing is really for you (vs PC etc) and you might have added more molds or calibers to your collection, making the purchase of a star more easily justifiable.

[1bluehorse]

Lyman ??? From what I've seen of their QC and customer service , there is a saying that fits them well . You pay your money and take your chances .
Hope that helps , Jack



I don't have any Lyman sizer dies any longer as I sold my Lyman 450 lube sizer years ago when I bought a Star. However, I have had a couple Lyman molds that dropped smaller than I wanted, called, they said send it back and we'll ream it to whatever you want. I did, they did. I've had a few other reasons to use Lyman CS over the years and will say I was always treated well. Only once have I thought they were a bit overboard and that's when I wanted to buy the parts to repair a Lyman scale and they said they couldn't do that and to send it to them and they would repair it so they would know it was done correctly. Again, I did, they did, still have and use the scale. So my personal experience with Lyman has been good. Sorry to sidetrack the OP but I think good reports on CS from manufacturers are as important as bad reports. I realize you didn't really give a bad report but it was a questioning one. No offence meant. Really.

[dikman]

As you're no doubt aware, the Star sizes and lubes. If you only get a Lee sizer you have to lube somehow. I experimented with pan lubing and was real glad when I discovered Hi-Tek coating!! All I need is a simple Lee sizer (and when I needed another one I made my own). No more mess.

[fredj338]

I have a star but have gone almost exclusively to coatings. IMO, the star/magma is the only way to lube & size, well worth the cost.

[fredj338]

I'll chime in because I just received and started using a new .451 sizing die from Lee. I found that the die was sizing closer to .449. This was a bit odd, but easily fixable. It just required a little time with a dowel rod, some sand paper and a leather strap. I'm not sure that this is a Lee problem, or if it is simply an industry problem.
Now, the Lee system works. I've used it exclusively with low pressure hand-gun cartridges. It is also a fast way to size, if you don't consider the drying time for the lube. It is also inexpensive.
However, I am trying to branch out and am starting to use more traditional methods with a traditional sizer. I don't see this as a necessity. It is just time to try something different.

PS. Bear in mind that different alloys will have a different amount of "spring back". The bullet can literally grow after sizing.

Lee problem.

[Taterhead]

I'll chime in because I just received and started using a new .451 sizing die from Lee. I found that the die was sizing closer to .449. This was a bit odd, but easily fixable. It just required a little time with a dowel rod, some sand paper and a leather strap. I'm not sure that this is a Lee problem, or if it is simply an industry problem.
Now, the Lee system works. I've used it exclusively with low pressure hand-gun cartridges. It is also a fast way to size, if you don't consider the drying time for the lube. It is also inexpensive.
However, I am trying to branch out and am starting to use more traditional methods with a traditional sizer. I don't see this as a necessity. It is just time to try something different.

PS. Bear in mind that different alloys will have a different amount of "spring back". The bullet can literally grow after sizing.

I think it must be a Lee thing. I am 0/2 in getting the diameter as ordered. Both being undersized. I can say that 6/6 of the sizing bushings I've purchased from NOE are right on!

Jager: Don't be too quick to dismiss powder coating. It is easy and effective!

[Jack Stanley]

No offence taken Bluehorse . Just relating experience and if it helps someone great . if not , it was worth the price the reader paid .

Jack

[mold maker]

Factory quality seldom improves when bean counters get involved, and thats the first thing that happens after a merger or buy out.
RCBS, Marlin,and many others have been bought/merged/transfered within the last couple years. In some cases
CS and quality suffered. Trying to compare a life time of experience with what's available today is a SWAG guess.

[jcourson]

I got my non-pneumatic Star last year on Ebay for $120 with a .358 die (probably have to get myself a .357 now).
Lathesmith on here makes fantastic hardened dies for it.

[EDG]

It does not really matter what the tolerances are. You need a sizing process or you shoot your bullets unsized.
Unsized is nice but you still need a method to lube your bullets.
Any brand of sizing die can be manufactured wrong but in my collection of about 20 dies none are off a significant amount.
I will also say that there is ZERO GUARANTEE that any of your barrels or bullet molds are exactly on the size that you want or expect.
Keep in mind that many of us get really good results with bullets that are .001 to .003 over the groove diameter of the rifle. If .003 over works why would you think your bullet has to be exactly a specific diameter. Odds are that .0015 to .0025 oversize will also work. Odds are your barrel is not exactly on an even .001 size. That is your .308 barrel may be .3087 or .3089 or .3093.
So if you are Adrian Monk about an exact bullet size you will be disappointed. Even if the die is exactly right the bullets may vary in diameter from one alloy lot to another.
Still if you have to obsess about your bullet diameters buy an undersize die and polish it until it sizes a bullet to fit your needs.
Or get one of the guys here to make you a custom die.
My first really good 45-70 results came from a Brooks mold that cast nearly .004 oversize.
I did not have the .460 die I preferred so I lubed the .462 bullets by taking a stick of lube and smearing it in the lube grooves like a soft crayon. The bullets were shot as is with no sizing and they were very accurate.
Much of the time my lube sizer is set up to do little or no sizing. It is just a convenient way to apply lube.

[Jager]

It does not really matter what the tolerances are. You need a sizing process or you shoot your bullets unsized.....


Well, ahem, my sizing die is to be my sizing process! So, yeah, I'll kindly disagree. A properly-sized bullet matters. And if you're not going to get there via a correct-spec sizing die, how else would you propose to do it?

'Course, there's precision and then there's precision. I'm not trying to be anal or obsessive. I'm not gonna sweat a thousandth oversize. The bullet will still obturate. But if the manufacturing tolerances have my new die going off in the other direction, then at some point it all starts to fall apart.