45 ACP Black Powder revolver

[Lucio]

Hi everibody, I've been loading 45 colt with BP for my Uberti El Patron now for the past two years and loving it. Recently I've got my hands on the conversion 45 ACP cylinder from VTI for the same gun. What I am about to ask may sound stupid but since I consider myself still new to the game, I rather ask you guys for advice than blow myself up. I've been using 28-30-35 gr of 3f GOEX under 250 gr RFNP Cowboy #1, from Missouri Bullets Company. How would I transfer those loads and apply them to a 45 ACP case, using 200 and 230 gr RFNP. Got those bullet at a ridiculous price....and I like the shape of them!! I do not shoot competition nor hunting with them just fun at the range with my son. But when I try to do a search for reloading data, I only come across smokeless powder numbers for 1911 type gun, it is a 45 ACP after all. Those loads have me concerned about the pressures they generate, exceeding those of the Uberti revolver and they are definitely not for BP; any help on the matter is highly appreciated. I would like to stick with BP or sub, smokeless would be last resort!

[fcvan]

Hickock45 of YouTube fame, loaded and shot 45acp loaded with BP from his Glock. Granted, he had to use 4f and it really fouled the piece, but it fired. 3f did not cycle the Glock. Lots of smoke from a full mag, fun to watch!

[BigBore45]

Just load so that the bullet slightly compresses the black powder in the case when seated. and go from there.

[kaiser]

I also have a .45acp cylinder for a Beretta Stampede (made by the same company). I have not thought to load BP in a .45acp case because of the lack of volume (a problem the .45 Colt does not have); so, I'm interested in your results. (To my knowledge, the .45acp was originally designed as a "smokeless" powder cartridge, thus I have not seen any published data for loading it with BP.) I currently load smokeless powder "starting loads" for the regular .45acp load data (NO +P data is used!) combined with 230RN and 200gr cast bullets with very satisfactory results in my "clone" and have never experienced a problem other than an occasional misfire caused by a case driven further into the cylinder due to improper "sizing". (Since the acp is "rimless", case length is more "critical" in a cylinder vice an auto loader chamber.) The conversion cylinder has a bit more steel between the cylinders than the .45Colt cylinder, so I think you wouldn't be able to overload it with black powder. Best of luck!

[KCSO]

The 45 acp won't hold enough black to do more than make an anemic poofter load. If you compress the powder slightly you will get in 21 grain of FFFg at most more likely 17-18 grains. This will just about duplicate the old Webley load for the RIC. That round clocked at about 500 fps and made less than 700 fps. The only one I shot you could SEE the bullet flying through the air if the light was right.

[Dan Cash]

Friend and I made some .45 ACP some years ago. As I remember, we got 20 or 21 grains of 3Fg under a 225 grain bullet. Not real powerful but the gun worked, Colt 1911. We put some able coompression on the powder with a compression die. If BP and a 1911 or .45 ACP revolver were all I had, I would be in business and some one (enemy) would get badly hurt.

[Outpost75]

As FYI, I have one of the Walt Kirst .45 ACP conversion cylinders for my Ruger Old Army and I use ordinary .45 ACP smokeless loads in it with cowboy bullets. While I have shot full charge loads in my Ruger, in revolvers meant for "Cowboy" charges, I would use light smokeless loads which approximate the velocity and pressure of the .455 Webley or .45 ACP target "wadcutter" loads.

A charge of 3.5 grains of Bullseye is suitable for heavier bullets from 240-270 grains, and with bullets from 185-230 grains you can load 4 grains of Bullseye with no pressure concerns, as none of these will exceed 14,000 psi.

[Lucio]

Well gentleman, I thank all of you for the reply, it has been very informative! I should be getting my bullets soon. I'll keep you posted.
Thanks again.

[Wayne Smith]

Lucio, you are not gonna hurt that revolver with a case full of Black of any persuasion. The rule for loading BP is a case full and no air space. Goex wants a little more compression that Swiss, but compress what you can and you will not get more powder in the case than the revolver will handle.

[Lucio]

Lucio, you are not gonna hurt that revolver with a case full of Black of any persuasion. The rule for loading BP is a case full and no air space. Goex wants a little more compression that Swiss, but compress what you can and you will not get more powder in the case than the revolver will handle.

Thanks Wayne, my mind was wandering that way all along. It's just nice to have some validation.

[Grapeshot]

You don't shoot Black Powder much, have you? If you put in enough BP, 22 - 23 grains, in a .45 ACP case and compress it into a solid pellet, seat a 230 grain lead bullet, and touch it off with a Magnum Large Pistol Primer you will duplicate a .44 Russian round. If you think it's an anemic poofter round, I challenge you to stand in front of me while I shoot you.

[Wayne Smith]

You don't shoot Black Powder much, have you? If you put in enough BP, 22 - 23 grains, in a .45 ACP case and compress it into a solid pellet, seat a 230 grain lead bullet, and touch it off with a Magnum Large Pistol Primer you will duplicate a .44 Russian round. If you think it's an anemic poofter round, I challenge you to stand in front of me while I shoot you.
True, but a 44Russian round isn't gonna hurt his El Patron either. I shoot my Cattlemen 44-40 with 37gr FFG compressed and a 200gr big lube boolit - way more than he'll ever get into a 45ACP case. No, far from anemic, 850fps out of a 7.5" barrel isn't anemic.

[Lucio]

I also have a .45acp cylinder for a Beretta Stampede (made by the same company). I have not thought to load BP in a .45acp case because of the lack of volume (a problem the .45 Colt does not have); so, I'm interested in your results. (To my knowledge, the .45acp was originally designed as a "smokeless" powder cartridge, thus I have not seen any published data for loading it with BP.) I currently load smokeless powder "starting loads" for the regular .45acp load data (NO +P data is used!) combined with 230RN and 200gr cast bullets with very satisfactory results in my "clone" and have never experienced a problem other than an occasional misfire caused by a case driven further into the cylinder due to improper "sizing". (Since the acp is "rimless", case length is more "critical" in a cylinder vice an auto loader chamber.) The conversion cylinder has a bit more steel between the cylinders than the .45Colt cylinder, so I think you wouldn't be able to overload it with black powder. Best of luck!

I should be getting those bullets soon! I've never experimented with anything but regular 45 Colt. I'll definitely let you know.

[Lucio]

The 45 acp won't hold enough black to do more than make an anemic poofter load. If you compress the powder slightly you will get in 21 grain of FFFg at most more likely 17-18 grains. This will just about duplicate the old Webley load for the RIC. That round clocked at about 500 fps and made less than 700 fps. The only one I shot you could SEE the bullet flying through the air if the light was right.

So far the only time I've seen bullets flying out of the gun was in the Matrix movie! LOL, jokes apart, I just want to get it under my belt so that I can comfortably load it. It's just another load to learn.

[Lucio]

Friend and I made some .45 ACP some years ago. As I remember, we got 20 or 21 grains of 3Fg under a 225 grain bullet. Not real powerful but the gun worked, Colt 1911. We put some able coompression on the powder with a compression die. If BP and a 1911 or .45 ACP revolver were all I had, I would be in business and some one (enemy) would get badly hurt.

Thanks Dan! That's what I thought!

[Lucio]

As FYI, I have one of the Walt Kirst .45 ACP conversion cylinders for my Ruger Old Army and I use ordinary .45 ACP smokeless loads in it with cowboy bullets. While I have shot full charge loads in my Ruger, in revolvers meant for "Cowboy" charges, I would use light smokeless loads which approximate the velocity and pressure of the .455 Webley or .45 ACP target "wadcutter" loads.

A charge of 3.5 grains of Bullseye is suitable for heavier bullets from 240-270 grains, and with bullets from 185-230 grains you can load 4 grains of Bullseye with no pressure concerns, as none of these will exceed 14,000 psi.

Thanks Outpost75, once the BP runs dry I'll have to venture in smokeless territory and start a new adventure!! I'll pick your brain for more loads!

[Lucio]

Hickock45 of YouTube fame, loaded and shot 45acp loaded with BP from his Glock. Granted, he had to use 4f and it really fouled the piece, but it fired. 3f did not cycle the Glock. Lots of smoke from a full mag, fun to watch!

I've seen that one and many others from Hickock45, I like what he does.

[Lucio]

Just load so that the bullet slightly compresses the black powder in the case when seated. and go from there.

I've done that too on the 45 colt, just didn't know for the combination of short case and cast bullet.

[ofitg]

Years ago, I chronographed a couple of BP rounds through my S&W M1917 revolver. According to my notes, 16.0 grains of Goex 3Fg with the LEE .45/230-TC slug (cartridge OAL 1.24 inches) achieved 740 fps.

[Lucio]

Years ago, I chronographed a couple of BP rounds through my S&W M1917 revolver. According to my notes, 16.0 grains of Goex 3Fg with the LEE .45/230-TC slug (cartridge OAL 1.24 inches) achieved 740 fps.

Thank you Ofitg, I'll put this one on my book as well! It is amazing, if you stop for a second and think about it, the amount of knowledge you guys have to offer!

[Outpost75]

Thank you Ofitg, I'll put this one on my book as well! It is amazing, if you stop for a second and think about it, the amount of knowledge you guys have to offer!

That sounds correct. I use the Accurate 45-240H1 bullet in both the .455 Webley and the .45 Auto Rim and using a 10" drop tube and compression die I was able to get 20 grains in the Auto Rim case with the Accurate bullet, which has much less seating depth than your Lee, OAL 1.30" for about the same velocity.

212890

[Lead pot]

I use 2F in my 1911 gold cup with a cast 200 gr RN. or a 185 gr Keith SWC. It functions good with no feeding problems and shoots well.

[Lucio]

Got the bullets today, but I won't be in town to try them out this week. It'll be next week and than I'll post the result.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I’m loading Schofield right now using 452374 and could try some Goex FFFg this weekend if anybody is interested.

[Lucio]

Well guys, sorry for the long delay, work kept me out of town and away from my hobby. I was able to make some rounds to test, unfortunately was unable to get to a chronograph to check velocity! My loads were American Pioneer Powder (that is what I have at the moment) and 3FG Goex Black Powder, 200 gr RNFP and SWC cast bullets from Missouri Bullet with the blue lube and I know this is NOT a good lube for BP. The RNFP were loaded with 20.7 gr by volume (and if you're into it, 14 gr by weight of APP and 19 gr of BP, using the 1.3 cc deeper by Lee, I'm also aware of the "by volume" loads with BP and substitutes) and the SWC with 15.9 gr by volume (11 gr by weight of APP and 14 gr of BP, using the 1.0 cc deeper by Lee). The different loads was to allow a 1/16 compression. Nice rounds, very mild recoil very accurate at 10 and 15 yards. Talking about been able to see the bullet, my buddy and I were able to shoot, run to the target and move it to were the bullet was flying to so we averaged 3 inch, six round groups, 24 round per type of bullet! Verdict...those bullets will kill...!!

[indian joe]

Thank you Ofitg, I'll put this one on my book as well! It is amazing, if you stop for a second and think about it, the amount of knowledge you guys have to offer!

Lucio - I dont know at all but I imagine you might get 18 or 20 grains of Swiss (it has more power per grain the experts say) - in that case - thats gonna make a large hole in any critter dumb enough to stand up and say shoot me. I bet there is a lot of weaker loads than this around the cowboy shoots.

[ofitg]

Well guys, sorry for the long delay, work kept me out of town and away from my hobby. I was able to make some rounds to test, unfortunately was unable to get to a chronograph to check velocity! My loads were American Pioneer Powder (that is what I have at the moment) and 3FG Goex Black Powder, 200 gr RNFP and SWC cast bullets from Missouri Bullet with the blue lube and I know this is NOT a good lube for BP. The RNFP were loaded with 20.7 gr by volume (and if you're into it, 14 gr by weight of APP and 19 gr of BP, using the 1.3 cc deeper by Lee, I'm also aware of the "by volume" loads with BP and substitutes) and the SWC with 15.9 gr by volume (11 gr by weight of APP and 14 gr of BP, using the 1.0 cc deeper by Lee). The different loads was to allow a 1/16 compression. Nice rounds, very mild recoil very accurate at 10 and 15 yards. Talking about been able to see the bullet, my buddy and I were able to shoot, run to the target and move it to were the bullet was flying to so we averaged 3 inch, six round groups, 24 round per type of bullet! Verdict...those bullets will kill...!!

Something discussed in a separate thread - http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?354739-Swiss-or-Olde-Eynsford-users - was the fact that the Goex I used years ago (manufactured at the old plant in Moosic PA) was more energetic than the "standard" Goex BP which is currently manufactured.

I imagine this explains the differences between G-O data published in Lyman's 1975 BP Handbook, and Goex data published in Lyman's 2001 BP Handbook & Loading Manual.

[indian joe]

Something discussed in a separate thread - http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?354739-Swiss-or-Olde-Eynsford-users - was the fact that the Goex I used years ago (manufactured at the old plant in Moosic PA) was more energetic than the "standard" Goex BP which is currently manufactured.

I imagine this explains the differences between G-O data published in Lyman's 1975 BP Handbook, and Goex data published in Lyman's 2001 BP Handbook & Loading Manual.

Yeah that was me I think - still have almost ten pounds of that old Goex saved for special occasions -- hmm -- it was (is) ungraphited bulk 5FA too which was always a bit better (5 to 10%) than FFFg rifle powder. ----- about the same time we bought 4FA chinese powder from a fireworks guy for use in our bigger stuff (58's and shotgun) paid $15 per kilo for that stuff - wish I had got a ton of it - it was a slow powder (about like the old Curtiss and Harveys) but the cleanest burn!! -- later we got chinese again and it was DIRTY - foul out quick with that stuff - clean burn (or not) dont matter to the pyro guys.

[Dale53]

In the .45ACP cylinder of my Ruger Convertible, the .45 Cowboy Special Brass headspaces perfectly. If you want to use a bullet which needs a roll crimp, you can do so with the .45 CS. .45 CS Brass is available direct from Starline.

FWIW
Dale.53

I compress the black powder 1/16 th inch when seating the bullet.

[Lucio]

Lucio - I dont know at all but I imagine you might get 18 or 20 grains of Swiss (it has more power per grain the experts say) - in that case - thats gonna make a large hole in any critter dumb enough to stand up and say shoot me. I bet there is a lot of weaker loads than this around the cowboy shoots.

I am going to get my hands on some Swiss tomorrow and try it! Thank you

[Lucio]

In the .45ACP cylinder of my Ruger Convertible, the .45 Cowboy Special Brass headspaces perfectly. If you want to use a bullet which needs a roll crimp, you can do so with the .45 CS. .45 CS Brass is available direct from Starline.

FWIW
Dale.53

I compress the black powder 1/16 th inch when seating the bullet.

Thanks Dale.53, I've noticed that the 45ACP rim is thinner that the 45COLT, the headspace measures good, so, from the rim to the breachface, I am still within tollerance.