A sheet metal riveting question

[quack1]

I had a rivet come out of my aluminum boat this past duck season. I got a replacement rivet, a piece of steel for a backer, but need to make a punch to peen over the shank. I got the next size bigger rivet, so I can drill a new, clean hole, rather than use the old one that might be a little wallowed out, so can't use the measurements of the other rivets in the boat.
My question is, what diameter hole in the punch do I need to peen over a 3/16" diameter aluminum rivet?
Thanks.

[rockrat]

Can't help there, but if you have a smallish airport close by, see if you can find an aircraft mechanic and ask him if he will "buck" a rivet on your boat for you with his rivet gun and bucking bar

[Soundguy]

I've always peened a rivit with a ballpeen hammer.. but those were soft iron rivits into thick metal like on tractor bumpers.

[country gent]

If its a solid rivet then with a good backer and a little work you can form the new head with a small ball peen hammer. Most rivet sets are a concave radious to form the rounded head. With a 4 ounce ball peen light tapping and working around the edge you can forma fairly nice rounded head, not as fast as the rivet set does but it can be done.

If you want to make a set measure the head on existing rivets or the formed one on the replacement. Use a ball end mill to cut the radious into the punch and then face the end 10*- 20* from it. This angled face allows the punch to from down tight to the part and to be "wiggled" to form a truer head.

[SNDBGGR1484]

Sounds like you have a solid rivet and those are used with an air chisel and a bucking bar.A special bit sized for the head of the rivet in an air chisel and a bucking bar on the back are used to peen the rivet.The rivet needs to be compressed and expanded to hold pieces together to maintain structural strength.Rockrat has a good idea about looking for a small small airport. You could also look for a Auto Body Shop that does repairs on " Delivery Trucks" like UPS or Post Office cause they have aluminum bodies that use that kind of rivet on body panels. If you can't find a place PM me and I will check with some friends in Pa. for a place near you that can do it.

Good Luck

[deerstalkerks]

Your rivet butt should be 1 & 1/2 times the diameter of the rivet. you could go to a Harbor Freight and get a pop rivet kit, it comes with puller no need to beat on anything..

[deetee]

Regular pop-rivets may very well leak, but there are "blind rivets" available, I have used these on both corrugated iron and IBR profile roof sheets.

[rondog]

Ah, memories of Aircraft Mechanics class in high school Vo-Tech......

[Joby]

if its not too hard of an alloy rivet which I doubt that it is on a boat you can probably do a nice job as you said with a backer and a ball peen hammer. And as previously mentioned any airport would be able to smash that rivet for you faster than dragging out the airline to do it. If you were on the eastern side of the state Id tell you right where to go. If you don't like your results you can always drill it out on center and do it as many times until you get the best results.
Good luck.

[starmac]

Your rivet butt should be 1 & 1/2 times the diameter of the rivet. you could go to a Harbor Freight and get a pop rivet kit, it comes with puller no need to beat on anything..

Not even close to the same thing.

[quack1]

Thanks for the replies.
The small local airport was the first place I asked, but without any luck. I will try body shops. I hadn't considered them, figuring they didn't work with rivets or aluminum, but never thought about UPS and mail trucks being made of aluminum.
I originally was just going to take an ball end mill and put a "dimple" on the end of a punch, and peen over the rivet in a rounded dome shape. Then I got to thinking (maybe overthinking) about why all the other rivets in the boat were peened in a cylindrical shape. I'd like to get this right, as the rivet is below the waterline and I'd like to not have to deal with a small geyser of water coming in the boat, at 5:00 AM, again.
I did find that a redbush twig jammed into the hole makes a pretty good temporary rivet, it lasted the whole day. The biggest problem was keeping the Lab from trying to chew on it.
https://i.imgur.com/WcW28Jgm.jpg

[chambers]

I believe the tool you are looking for is called a "rivet setting tool". Push rivot though , place heavy steel backing over rivet hood, use setting took and top is peened over. Some old sheet metal guys may have yet.

[Joby]

If you search (faa AC 43.13-1b ) then go to chapter 4 section 4. You will get some images and guidance of using solid rivets. . I know it's not an aircraft but the same principle applies. Also installing the rivet wet with your favorite sealant is typically a good idea.

[Joby]

But of course there is always YouTube and you can see the tools and rivets getting smashed. Then improvise as needed.

[Hogtamer]

I think liquid steel and plenty of caulk if duct tape won't fix it.....

[MaryB]

When my boat did that I used a pop rivet and lots of silicone... lasted 10 years before I had to re silicone it

[RogerDat]

Might try using a ball bearing to start the rivet rolling over if it is the type with a hollow at one end. Have heard of folks drilling a dimple in one side of a C clamp for the head of the rivet and on the other side weld a ball bearing to clamp down and roll. Never tried it myself. Old guy at the motorcycle shop I worked in showed me how to replace brake pads by drilling off old brass rivets, and riveting on new pads. Used a punch and ball peen. Never achieved anywhere near his level of proficiency but could get the job done. If I had to.

[fast ronnie]

I do some work with aircraft rivets. Cheapest and quickest is to use a backer (any heavy piece of metal) and work around perimeter with a ball peen hammer, It will upset into the hole as you work around it. You don't have to hit it too hard, just enough to move the metal a little at a time. I've got a lot of rivets in two different vehicles done that way.

[shaper]

Stay away from the air chisel, it hits too hard and too fast. You will need a rivet that fits the hole tight. You should put it in wet with a sealer. Do not use a selastic. when curing it gives off a gas that eats aluminum. I would use a (A) rivet It is soft and will fill the hole best. Two hammers will work. Put the rivet in from the outside with the sealer on it and in the hole. Have a friend push the big hammer hard on the head of the rivet, he should hold the pressure until you are finished. Now you use the smaller rivet and crush the tail of the rivet, don't let it bend over. You are done. That is the primitive way. If it was here it would be a 30 second job. If you have the time to wait just pm me and I will send you the rivet, just let me know what size the hole is. Look for the number on the drill bit.

shaper
retired aircraft inspector.












d

[kens]

what the diameter of the new clean hole?
what is the grip length? (the total thickness of all the metal layers involved)?
I got a assortment of aluminum rivets.
No, you dont need any special rivet dies nor punches to plug a hole in a jon boat.
I could mail you a couple.

[tunnug]

I read that you plan on using a steel backer, keep in mind that aluminum and steel next to each other will cause dissimilar metal corrosion, if you can I'd use an aluminum backer, if not you'll need to use some adhesive to separate the two metals.

[starmac]

The backer is held in your hand, it doesn't stay with the rivet or metal.

[starmac]

[QUOTE=shaper;4269664]Stay away from the air chisel, it hits too hard and too fast. You will need a rivet that fits the hole tight. You should put it in wet with a sealer. Do not use a selastic. when curing it gives off a gas that eats aluminum. I would use a (A) rivet It is soft and will fill the hole best. Two hammers will work. Put the rivet in from the outside with the sealer on it and in the hole. Have a friend push the big hammer hard on the head of the rivet, he should hold the pressure until you are finished. Now you use the smaller rivet and crush the tail of the rivet, don't let it bend over. You are done. That is the primitive way. If it was here it would be a 30 second job. If you have the time to wait just pm me and I will send you the rivet, just let me know what size the hole is. Look for the number on the drill bit.

shaper
retired aircraft inspector.

Why do you say to stay away from an air hammer, the only planes I helped put together we used an air hammer? We use them on aluminum semi cabs too.

[EDG]

You do not need a special tool to set an aluminum rivet.
You need 1.5 times the diameter of the shank projecting through the work.
Back up the factory head and mash the rivet shank to a flat head.

At one of my early engineering jobs we set millions of rivets in assemblies to hold floating nut plates.
All the rivets, both dome head and flat head, were set with a flat head on the shank. It was all military hardware that complied with military specifications.

[lightman]

Starmac's post reminded me that the bodies on Peterbilt trucks are put together with rivets. You might look for shops that repair over the road trucks. Aluminum rivets are not hard to do though. A buddy and a couple of hammers will have you floating again in no time. Like the stick idea, it got you by ok!

[shaper]

starmac. The item i said not to use is a air chisel . Big difference between it and what you and I have used to install rivets. Air hammer, air riveter, rivet gun all the same. The air chiseler is hard to control especially so for someone that has never installed a rivet. It is a good tool to own if you plan to cut old exhaust pipes off a truck.

[frkelly74]

You could put a close fitting bolt through the hole with a nut and some silicone sealer. It would hold till you can get a proper fix done on it.

[Soundguy]

You could put a close fitting bolt through the hole with a nut and some silicone sealer. It would hold till you can get a proper fix done on it.

Especially a washer headed bolt that had a bonded gasket or flat faced oring.

[AllanD]

Regular pop-rivets may very well leak, but there are "blind rivets" available, I have used these on both corrugated iron and IBR profile roof sheets.

All "pop-rivets" are "blind rivets", the term you are looking for is "closed-end rivet"

And while a pol rivet (closed end or not) can be used to replace a rivet in a boat it requires some special care.

First the rivet must be all aluminum!

If a steel bodied rivet is used the boat will corrode the rived out of the hole
If the Mandrel (the pulling stem) is steel the rivet will corrode from the inside out.

There are advantages to solid aircraft rivets, but "bucking" them into place is not one of them.

[skeettx]

https://cottagelife.com/outdoors/how-to-fix-leaking-rivets-in-a-boat/
Mike

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gipz4We-aFk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdPr6D5J4-8

[Ballistics in Scotland]

What shape is the head on the outside of the boat? If it is round headed, a punch with the same size of hemispherical hole (bought or made with a round nosed end mill or burr). More likely it is flush riveted, fitting a couintersunk hole, and a hemispherical punch the same as the round headed ones of the same shank variety should be fine.

https://rivetsinstock.com/rivets/solid-aluminum-rivets.html

Peening the rivet flat should work, providing that it isn't too hard and you don't aim for it to be too wide, or it isn't too hard. With too much widening or work-hardening it may crack. Sunderland flying-boats used to pop over-hard rivets and leak, but replacement softer ones were strong enough to secure the seam, and stayed intact. The boatbuilder will have taken care of the other danger of riveting, namely making the holes too close together or too close to the edge of the sheet, so that the sheet itself cracks.

The best sealant is probably zinc chromate paste, the greenish-yellow stuff you see in undercoat paint in aircraft manufacture. Also note that countersunk rivets are made with at least two angles, and the wrong one may weaken the joint or increase the chances of a slow leak through it.

[6bg6ga]

Can you use a product called Plastic Aluminum? Simply clean both the top and bottom and let dry and apply a bunch and let it dry.

[imashooter2]

A properly bucked rivet expands to fill the hole and seal. To do that, it must be driven from the head side with a bucking bar on the tail. You can use a two or three pound hammer for a bucking bar, but there really isn’t a substitute for an air hammer and set to drive it.

[leadman]

I used to repair semi trailers and have replaced rivets in my boat also. Easy job to do. Make sure the aluminum is flat, no burrs on either side. Place the rivet in the hole from the bottom. Have an assistant hold a heavy hammer on the head (#4 or more helps). I use an air chisel bit with a flat end to make it easier, put in your case you can hit it direct with a hammer. Peen it until the surface looks similar to the rest of your rivets. The first hit should be stout to make the shaft of the rivet expand in the hole.
Might want to inspect the rest of your rivets for any sign of movement and tighten them up also. The one opposite the missing one looks like there is dark gray around it which indicates it might be working in the hole.
My boat is a 1955 and I have tightened the rivets a couple of tomes and added another layer on the front of the keel. Used a piece of scrap aluminum semi truck cab from where I worked at the time.

[deetee]

All "pop-rivets" are "blind rivets", the term you are looking for is "closed-end rivet"

My thanks for the correction.

These rivets can be used with a normal rivet gun, and with a dab of sealer for added insurance should fix the problem for a reasonably long term.

Best,

Dan

[David2011]

For those that have never set rivets, they are easy and awesome. They completely fill a clean, properly fitting hole. No sealer is necessary but a pliable sealer won’t hurt anything. Air chisels and rivet guns look alike but rivet guns have a slower, more gentle impact and are much easier to control. For a one time repair you can make the buck with the rounded dimple and drive the rivet from the tail end with a hammer and flat ended steel rod. It takes two people to drive a rivet that way; best to not try to do it alone. If you just HAVE to try using an air chisel turn the pressure way down and drive a couple of rivets on scrap aluminum sheet first. I did mostly fabric repair but even fabric covered planes have some sheet aluminum of them so there were still rivets to set.

[quack1]

An update. Replaced the rivet yesterday, turned out I was over-thinking the process. Got a buddy to buck up with a 10lb sledge hammer head that I had a small dimple milled in to match the domed head of the rivet. I used a punch that I dimpled with the same ball end mill, to peen the head. Was easy to do, the rivet seems nice and tight. Since the local lake will be frozen for another month or two, wont be able to check for water tightness for some time. Or, if we get some warmer temps for a couple days, I'll be able to get the hose out in the back yard and run some water inside the boat to check my work.
Many thanks for all the responses and offers to mail some rivets.

[MaryB]

Boat: Break out another thousand! Always something to fix on them! I ran the local river a lot and hitting logs was common so the front took a beating! We often ran 15 miles(air miles) upriver to fish and came back around 3AM... so dodging deadheads in the dark... I had 2 yellow fog spotlights mounted down low under the bow so they didn't shine back in my face. Helped show the swirls to avoid... even with that you would tag stuff that was floating with the current and was just barely submerged...

So rivets needed attention often but I only tore one out... I had a local welding shop shape a piece of 1/4 inch aluminum plate finally that got bolted to the keel in front and wrapped back a foot on each side to take the abuse.

[shaper]

The dimple in the head of the rivet is there to identify the rivet. It is a AD 2117 with a universal head.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Just a couple of very minor points. If it is a round-headed rivet, a round hole in the backing block, or a glued-on piece of hard plastic or hardwood if it is something valuable like a sledgehammer, will save you putting a flat on the head. If it is countersunk a countersunk socket screw Allen or torx, like those just over halfway down this page, would provide a temporary replacement you could safely allow to become less temporary than you are. An acorn nut would avoid snagging things especially part of your person, on the inside. Keeping a few in the boat, just in case, would be better than chewing gum.

https://www.westfieldfasteners.co.uk/ScrewBolt_M.html

In the late 70s I worked, in a very unmartial capacity, on the Riyadh air force base, and there I knew what Japanese swordmaking enthusiasts call a Living National Treasure. He was a key man on maintaining the English Electric Lightning, a 1960s fighter which came very close to equalling the performance of anything modern, but did it by an abysmal duration and combat radius. But he had worked on Spitfires in the Battle of Britain, and afterwards married a German fighter controller - female, as was the popular prejudice in those days. I remember someone showing him his plastic model Spitfire, with visible and feelable rivet-heads. He was outraged, for you wouldn't have seen the sort of riveting he did.