German copy of Webley Constabulary Revolver

[Throwback]

Some variety of 380 I think. It will snugly chamber a .38 short colt (not a .38 S&W) Anyone ever try to shoot one?

[Outpost75]

.380 Revolver http://www.municion.org/380Short/380Short.htm Cartridge developed in England around 1868, for black powder revolvers. It was widely disseminated in Europe, and the .380 Short CF Short case (with a shorter two millimeter sheath) was derived from it. It seems that they exist in version with internal and external piston. When it seemed that it was going to disappear, it saw a new boom and as a cartridge "Webley Revolver" appeared in many catalogs until the beginning of the 20th century. Eley's catalog for 1898 describes it as "specific cartridge for Webley, Colt, tranter and other revolvers. In Denmark the 9x17 R Mod. 1891 was adopted , practically identical to this cartridge.

Correct brass for this is .380 Rimmed Short, made currently by Fiocchi. It has a smaller head diameter than the .38 S&W, dimensionally similar to the .38 Short Colt, but with a thinner rim 0.045" and case length 0.687". Original heeled bullet was 8 grams (123 grains) and cartridges were loaded with black powder.

I load 2 grains of TiteGroup or Bullseye and Accurate 36-155D bullet. Velocity 600 fps.

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[Throwback]

Great info - thanks!

[17nut]

The Danes was big on that cartridge in the 1880's, chambered in 4 army/navy revolvers and one police revolver.
https://www.arma-dania.dk/public/timeline/_AD_pistoler_view.php?editid1=46
https://www.arma-dania.dk/public/timeline/_ad_patroner_view.php?editid1=8

The oiginal .380 CF short was a heeled bullet running (suprice) .380".
I use 38SPL brass cut down to .688"
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[Earlwb]

I have taken some .38 Special cases, in the past, and cut the cases down to size and loaded up a few rounds, in order to fit my little single shot .380 short CF caliber pistol. It is a weird kind of a vest pocket gun. I never actually tried shooting it. But it ought to work OK.

http://i63.tinypic.com/25auka0.jpg

[Ballistics in Scotland]

A picture would be interesting, but this sounds like a recognised type (though a small-workshop product with considerable variation) often termed the German constabulary revolver. While it does somewhat resemble the Webley Metropolitan Police and Royal Irish Constabulary models, it isn't fair to call it a copy. One feature which probably derives from the military Reichsrevolver is a lever safety on the left behind the hammer, which isn't really a safety in itself. It just prevents the hammer from moving out of the half-cock position.

They are usually well made, and despite ejecting and loading a chamber at a time, considerably more modern than their contemporary, the Reichsrevolver. The latter was far more primitive than the revolvers already adopted by France, Italy and others. It is single-action only, with a long barrel and fine, easily damaged sights. Butit uses an inside lubed cartridge almost identical to the .44 S&W Russian, and is far better suited to the recreational shooter than military use. I would feel confident using either with smokeless loads aimed at duplicating black powder performance.

Here is one of mine which typifies the type, apart from being made by Vincenzo Durante Di Pietro of Palermo in Sicily, and a .320. I imagine its belonging to a "friend of the friends" who was polite enough not to want to wake up the neighbourhood. I would suspect that Di Pietro, perhaps like the Germans, bought in unfinished parts from Belgium. I also found online his trade mark registration form of 1922 for a trademark that wasn't on it. That is significant for me, since being pre-WW2 establishes it as an antique in the UK, non-existent in law unless I want a licence to shoot it. I think a slower process of argument would keep me safe anyway, for although the Italian smallarms industry could be... er... retro, it wouldn't that retro.


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[rintinglen]

I almost bought one of these about 4 years ago. It was a Belgian .380 Revolver that resembled closely the above illustration, save that it lacked the safety lever. The hassle of improvising brass kept from me making the purchase, plus I look goofy in a deer stalker cap and a caped overcoat.

[Throwback]

17Nut: Also good info - thanks!

[Throwback]

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As you can see it is definitely fair to call it a Webley copy. There is no safety. It is very nicely made and in excellent mechanical condition. I suspect it is a guild gun. It has a 4-digit serial number 1XXX implying there were at least that many made but rare enough that I can only find scraps of information. Some of these were allegedly made after WW1.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

As you can see it is definitely fair to call it a Webley copy. There is no safety. It is very nicely made and in excellent mechanical condition. I suspect it is a guild gun. It has a 4-digit serial number 1XXX implying there were at least that many made but rare enough that I can only find scraps of information. Some of these were allegedly made after WW1.

Yes, that is a little more like a Webley, including my .32 rimfire, which is probably the first Webley cartridge revolver other than licenced S&W copies and their own .577. You are probably right about some being made after WW1, but not many. The extractor was originally Tranter's.

I don't think you can draw any conclusions from a four-digit serial number in Europe in those days. It was done for stock accounting, not jurisprudence, and a lot of manufacturers started again after 9999, or inflated the number so as not to show that they had only made fourteen of them.

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[Throwback]

Agree on serial number vs number made. It's Hard to plant tongue in cheek when writing so played it straight.

[NoZombies]

That's a nice looking little piece.

I'd love to find it's brother. I've got 500 pieces of brass for it.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yes, it is a beautiful little revolver, very well preserved, and for a pocket pistol presented about the best combination of size, power, safety and reliability available for a substantial chunk of the nineteenth century.

A safety shouldn't have been really necessary. Elmer Keith called the marginally larger Webley RIC the best police pistol ever made, and for a plain clothes policeman he had some justification. The single ejection and loading is a liability only in an infrequent situation, and there were still old men around saying "Breech-loaders? Don't know when you're well off!"

[Throwback]

Turns out it shoots brilliantly right to the sights with Winchester factory .38 Short Colt. I intend to cast some soft bullets in the spring and use the above recommended 2.0 grains of Titegroup. If it slugs up and shoots fine I shouldn't need to worry about sourcing a heel-based outside lubed bullet.

[Outpost75]

Turns out it shoots brilliantly right to the sights with Winchester factory .38 Short Colt. I intend to cast some soft bullets in the spring and use the above recommended 2.0 grains of To regroup. If it slugs up and shoots fine I shouldn't need to worry about sourcing a heel-based outside lubed bullet.

Accurate has several suitable heeled bullets for the .380 Rimmed

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[Throwback]

I rather like the blunt one

[Dutchman]

AF stamp = August Francotti
9.4mm Dutch 5 shot
has safety lever on left side
purchased off *ebay*

https://media.fotki.com/2v3WgzrGxH3Es.jpg

[Throwback]

Very nice. I love the genre. Been looking for .442 and .450 but like the .380 about as well.

[Throwback]

Mine has hard rubber grips, which is one non-guild feature. I wonder if, like yours, it may come from more of a known manufacturer.