Is a plain base .30 cal boolit useful?

[brewer12345]

I will be buying a mold for a 30-06 boolit for deer soon and I think I have settled on the arsenal version of the ranch dog with tumble lube grooves: http://arsenalmolds.com/products?product_id=107

As I was poking around their site, I noticed this mold could be ordered gas checked, plain base, or 50/50. Given the pressures involved with a 30-06 hunting load I would think gas checks would be a necessity. What would a plain base boolit be useful for? Messing around with checks costs money and is a pain, so if there is a use for a plain base in this application, I am all ears.

[William Yanda]

If one wished to load for less than factory velocity, 1600 fps or so, a plain base would make a lot of sense.

[Outpost75]

A plainbased bullet works fine up to .32-40 equivalent velocities.
Good accuracy to 200 yards. Save your barrel and your money.

[brewer12345]

A plainbased bullet works fine up to .32-40 equivalent velocities.
Good accuracy to 200 yards. Save tour barrel and your money.

A cartridge I am unfamiliar with. What is the velocity range? 1600? I have the Lee soup can mold and have made some boolits, but have not had a chance to fool with it. It is a gas check design, so the additional 3 cents a boolit and hassles of fitting the danged things on are not a plus.

[popper]

Lower velocity, 15-1600 fps works with PB. Saves powder too, little bit of unique/2400. It is good for hunting but velocity just limits to shorter range and size of animal. I prefer the standard groove moulds over the TL.

[fcvan]

I bought an NOE 150-SP-3R GC mold originally for use with 300 BO. That cartridge generally goes 2000fps. I make my own gas checks with dies.

I started loading this boolit on .308 and 30-06, and am running 2250fps with 1.5/2.0 MOA at 100yds. These boolits are powder coated 50/50 WW/ soft lead, BTW. I have read recently read where a member here has been getting good results at 2700fps with a slightly harder alloy, more like all WW, also powder coated.

As for plain based, I bought a NOE 62-RN PB mold and have been getting 2350fps from a NEF 24"HB .223, and 2250 from an AR 15, also using 50/50 alloy. The AR 15 seems to like a harder alloy as it is a 1 in 10" twist, the NEF is 1 in 12" twist. I saw an RCBS mold, PB 180gr spitzer and almost picked it up. My .308W rifles are all 1 in 10" and doing well with gas checks. I would like to try PB and may just buy a 190gr GC mold, but cut the gas check portion off a few to try PB boolits to see if they fly. Who knows, a wise man said, 'it's all a guess until you pull the trigger.'

[Outpost75]

A cartridge I am unfamiliar with. What is the velocity range? 1600? I have the Lee soup can mold and have made some boolits, but have not had a chance to fool with it. It is a gas check design, so the additional 3 cents a boolit and hassles of fitting the danged things on are not a plus.

While people report good results with plainbased bullets to 1600 fps, the ASSRA and CBA guys who shoot them in benchrest matches keep velocities under 1400 fps for best results.

In the .30-'06 for Appleseed classes in the 03A3 Springfield we use 6 grains of Bullseye at 100 yards with the military iron sights set at 600 yards and accuracy is better than Ball M2 ammo. NO FILLER is needed, very cheap to shoot. You can go up to 8-8.5 grains of Bullseye in a smooth target grade barrel for about 1300 fps which will keep the bullet supersonic to 200 yards. Also very good is 8.5 grains of WST, 10 grains of AutoComp, Unique or Herco. For most rifles size to .311", worn barrels which have been shot alot will need .312-.313". Keep alloy soft 8-10 BHN. 50-50 wheelweights and pure lead with 1% tin added works well, with Lee Liquid Alox lube.

Don't over-lube the bullets, you want them to look like this:

212275

Can't speak for the "soupcan" bullet. In ten-inch twist .30-'06 rifles we've had best accuracy with bullets from 150-205 grains, using bullets with a large enough bore-riding forepart that they are lightly engraved upon chambering and "fit" the throat. We prefer bullets having a TAPERED nose which fits the throat. But if a bullet with parallel-sided nose is large enough in diameter to be engraved somewhat on chambering, it will work. NOE clone of #311299 or #314299 works well at subsonic velocities in 10-inch twist with these charges. Examples of the bullets we shoot. The GC designs which "fit" can also be used at low velocity without the GC.

212269212270212271212272212273212274

Some typical groups fired with '03 Springfields:

212266212267212268

[claude]

Just a personal opinion, ones level of experience with cast would make a difference in how this question is answered.
I, do better with checked bullets, they seem to be more forgiving. There are those here and on other boards that shoot almost exclusively PB bullets with great success.
Perhaps a lame answer but, that's my 2 cents worth.

[Outpost75]

Just a personal opinion, ones level of experience with cast would make a difference in how this question is answered. I, do better with checked bullets, they seem to be more forgiving. There are those here and on other boards that shoot almost exclusively PB bullets with great success. Perhaps a lame answer but, that's my 2 cents worth.

You are correct. Many new cast bullet shooters follow the commonly repeated mis-information about sizing bullets to the groove diameter of the barrel, which is INCORRECT, versus making the bullet fit the throat and origin of rifling. They also often use alloys which are too hard and which are unable to upset and seal the throat and bore, thus causing leading. They also use lubricants which are too hard and unable to flow to coat the bore, and provide the necessary boundary layer lubrication which is necessary to prevent leading and to form a steady-state ablative coating which maintains a consistent bore condition.

When the novice shooter follows the bad advice given in older loading manuals, of which Lyman is the chief offender, then the gaschecked bullet IS more forgiving, and more successful in the marketing endeavor by forcing the novice shooter to spend even more money on a bullet lubricator-sizer machine and to forever be addicted to expensive gaschecks to make his defective bullets work which don't fit.

Soft 8-10 BHN bullets will shoot accurately without leading to full-charge black powder velocities and will kill game. These 172-grain cup-point bullets cast 1:30 tin-lead from Roto Metals and loaded with 18 grs. IMR4895 in .30-30, shot into water jugs at 50 yards. They will shoot through deer broadside and Bambi is DRT. Ballistics approximate the .32-40 Winchester.

212298

[Grmps]

Outpost75 Attachment 212278 -- Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator

Most of Lymans alloy recommendation is Lyman #2 90-5-5 Brinell 15

new caster (all casters) need to slug all their barrels and cast 1 to 3 thou over the barrel bottom of the groove diameter
Choose the alloy hardness according to the desired application/velocity to get optimum obturation.
Softer alloys will obturate (expand to fill the grooves at lower pressure/velocity than harder alloys) in short you use to har an alloy on to light a load you will get blow by and leadding

Factory J-word cartridges are predominately made 1 size fits all

My 2¢ worth

[Hickory]

I will be buying a mold for a 30-06 boolit for deer soon.

Another thing to keep in mind when using plainbase boolits for hunting. If you want or need more power from your cast boolits it may behoove you to go to a heavier boolit, say 200-225 grs. With the natural restriction of 1600 fps this is a worthwhile option.

[Hickory]

[Double post]

[Outpost75]

Reduced file size and reposted. Shows up know on my PC, how about yours?

[Motor]

I don't see any reason why you couldn't shoot a plain base bullet at 2000fps or even more using powder coating. There are many people who do this already.

Motor

[texassako]

My favorite paper punching and small game rifle loads use plain base, unsized, and tumble lubed bullets. You have to be willing to keep the speeds down, but it is so easy once you have the load worked up.

[Loudy13]

FB works great for subsonic loads

[rking22]

Shows up on my phone.

[bluejay75]

I shoot the Ranchdog NOE version of this mold at 181 grains in .308 plain base. This is my most accurate cast load that I have right now. Will put 10 shots into 2 inches at 100 yards with 18.5 grains of AA9. Seated a couple thousandths deeper than the crimp groove to ensure it chambers in all of my guns.

[Outpost75]

I don't see any reason why you couldn't shoot a plain base bullet at 2000fps or even more using powder coating. There are many people who do this already. Motor

When people start winning ASRRA and CBA registered benchrest and military matches and setting score and group records with PC I might try it...

[Jack Stanley]

I've used bullets with the gas check heel without checks for years . But all that Outpost is saying about fit , hardness and lube need to be heeded . This is not hard to do at all so pick the style you want to use and work with it .

Jack

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

What ever you do, DO NOT type "30-06 plain base" into the google custom search, or you will be reading for days.

or just don't click on this link.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/google.php?cx=partner-pub-6216953551359885%3A1942134700&cof=FORID%3A9&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=30-06+plain+base&sa.x=0&sa.y=0&siteurl=castboolits.gunloads.com%2Fshowthread.php% 3F352710-Is-a-plain-base-30-cal-boolit-useful%26p%3D4266315%23post4266315&ref=castboolits.gunloads.com%2Fforum.php&ss=3398j1066950j16

[brewer12345]

Yes, I already figured out that boolits that are too hard and too small are a problem and have been gravitating toward fatter and softer. My thought is that the gas checked would make good hunting fodder for deer and pigs, while the plain based would do for plinking and maybe even.small game and varmints.

[Outpost75]

Flat-nosed .30 cal. bullet with meplat 0.6-0.7 of bullet diameter, BHN 8-10, at 1300-1400 fps will kill deer nicely at woods ranges

[brewer12345]

Flat-nosed .30 cal. bullet with meplat 0.6-0.7 of bullet diameter, BHN 8-10, at 1300-1400 fps will kill deer nicely at woods ranges

So will lots of things I already have, like 44 mag, 35 rem and even 357 out of a rifle. Problem is that a lot of my deer opportunities are foothills mule deer at over 100.yards. that is why I lean toward gas checked stuff for hunting. If I end up hunting east or the Mississippi, I would plan on the 35 or almost any load out of the 30 06.

[Motor]

When people start winning ASRRA and CBA registered benchrest and military matches and setting score and group records with PC I might try it...

I'm sure this has merit but this is about a hunting bullet not a match bullet. You certainly don't need match winning accuracy to kill a deer. I'll take 2000fps+ with great deer hunting accuracy over 1600fps or less any day.;)

Motor

[Outpost75]

I'm sure this has merit but this is about a hunting bullet not a match bullet. You certainly don't need match winning accuracy to kill a deer. I'll take 2000fps+ with great deer hunting accuracy over 1600fps or less any day.;)

Motor

What do you consider "deer hunting" accuracy?

What can you rely upon, on demand anytime, for a five-shot group at 200 yards?

[HangFireW8]

You are correct. Many new cast bullet shooters follow the commonly repeated mis-information about sizing bullets to the groove diameter of the barrel, which is INCORRECT

Outpost75, I agree with most everything you post, but your INCORRECT here is, well, incorrect.

Some of us have been sizing to bore size and getting very good results. Some of us includes CE Harris and Col. E.H. Harrisson (ret.). You can read the Col's book if you need reasons why. Basically it gets down to starting the boolit in a consistent and concentric fashion. Throat sizing is not the only way to do that. Sometimes it's not even the easiest way to do that. Sometimes the chamber neck size doesn't even allow a reloader to do that (safely).

One 50Y target doesn't prove an argument, but 10 shots may mean something to you.... This oddball rifle, a military Moroccan 30/06 FN Mauser, has a .310" bore, a long throat and a normal sized chamber neck. Boolits are sized to .310". If I sized to throat, it wouldn't chamber.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=51797&d=1289360314

One of these days I'll dig up (or maybe it will be easier to reshoot) some 444 cast load 50Y targets that also look like that, and 100Y targets that hold the same MOA. Trying to size to THAT throat would really be a hoot.

[Motor]

Outpost75. A 4" group at 200 yards is all that's needed for a deer rifle. Many deer hunting rifles currently being used with J-words are only capable of this. What's your point?

Most deer are taken at less than 100 yards but a 30 caliber shooting a 170gr+ cast bullet at 2200fps vs 1600fps or less would be capable of 0 to 200 yard kills with the proper sight in. I believe 2200fps is a conservative number.

Power coating is just one option what about the time proven paper patching?

Motor

[Doughty]

Outpost75,

This wouldn't win everyday, but on this particular day, it did.

212340

You oughta give it a try.

[Outpost75]

Outpost75,

This wouldn't win everyday, but on this particular day, it did.

212340

You oughta give it a try.

I'm impressed. Pls. describe the rifle. Is this the best group you ever shot, or can you shoot five in a row like that?

[Outpost75]

Outpost75. A 4" group at 200 yards is all that's needed for a deer rifle. Many deer hunting rifles currently being used with J-words are only capable of this. What's your point?

Most deer are taken at less than 100 yards but a 30 caliber shooting a 170gr+ cast bullet at 2200fps vs 1600fps or less would be capable of 0 to 200 yard kills with the proper sight in. I believe 2200fps is a conservative number.

Power coating is just one option what about the time proven paper patching?

Motor

I can agree with that.

When I tried it I had trouble maintaining bullet size and fit, accuracy was inferior to what I could get with simple Lee Liquid Alox or 45-45-10 and I gave up infrustration. I have a simple lube system that works for me, PC seems like too much work... For those who prefer it, more power to them.

[Doughty]

Outpost75,

The rifle is a stock Ruger No. 1, except it has a heavy Hart barrel, custom stocks, Moyer competition hammer and springs, Kepplinger set trigger, and Weaver 36X scope. The barrel was originally chambered for .30-30 Win on another action. When I switched the barrel to the current action, I had to set the barrel back one thread. This made for a short chamber, so I made dies and cases that are about .060 shorter than the standard .30-30. Naturally I call it a .30-30 Short.

It is not the best group that I have shot with PCed bullets, just the best group that I have a picture of. Over a 5 year average I shot a 244 score, with conventional lubed and PCed bullets. One of my problems is that I like to tinker too much. The bullet used in the photo was swaged (I mean "bumped") very much from it's original shape and was breech seated. I am no longer using that bullet, but one that casts much closer to its final, before "bumping" shape. I am also currently on a BLL kick, which is faster to apply than PC.

I "BELIEVE" that PC can be made to shoot as well as conventionally lubed bullets. My biggest problem is not the gun or bullets, it's that I can't dope the wind very well. Where I think PC really "shines" is in semi-auto firearms and somewhat in hunting ammo.

Give it a try.

[lwknight]

There is nothing wrong or bad about plain base for rifles except that you have to compromise between velocity and terminal performance.
You can use a big heavy low velocity bullet to knock an elephant down but realistically a 30-06 is not the tool of choice for that task.

The problem is that we need good terminal performance for hunting and the only way to get there is with fairly soft but tough bullets. Soft bullets will skid the rifling if we push the velocity too much. That is where the gas check comes into play. The gas check is not bonded to the bullet and is hard enough to resist skidding so that even if the lead part does skid the check will still block gas bypassing the rifling.

For target shooting , terminal performance is not a concern so the bullet can be cast hard enough to resist skid even at some impressive velocities. No gas check required.

I would use a gas check mold and simply leave the check off for lower velocity loads. A 220 grain 30 cal soft cast bullet with 4-5% tin at 1600fps will have plenty of kill em power for medium game. You just don't have a very flat trajectory for the long shots.

[Motor]

A gas check won't stop a soft bullet from skidding. This was proven many years ago. A gas check is just as the name implies, a gas seal to prevent blow by.

A flat or round nose bullet will produce a sufficient wound channel and if impact velocity is high teens to low 2k there will also be some hydrostatic shock as well.

I'm shooting 12BHN alloy powder coated at 32k psi from a .500 S&W without gas checks. I'm using the same alloy in 45-70 and well just about everything else I load.

I'd have to think a 12BHN alloy would in fact mushroom some at velocity over 1600 in 30 caliber.

It looks like I need to get a dedicated cast bullet rifle in 30 caliber so I can silence the doubters. ;)

Motor

[lwknight]

A gas check won't stop a soft bullet from skidding. This was proven many years ago. A gas check is just as the name implies, a gas seal to prevent blow by.

That is what I said " The gas check is not bonded to the bullet and is hard enough to resist skidding so that even if the lead part does skid the check will still block gas bypassing the rifling."

[texasnative46]

brewer12345,

Given that the vast majority of WT are taken at 100M (and often at much less), a .30 caliber PBCB, loaded to approximate the old .32-40WCF, makes a great deal of sense for "brush country hunting" for WT & medium game.
(I long ago quit trying to guess how many TX coyotes, jackrabbits, etc. that have fallen to my Model 760 in .300SAV.)

Fwiw, my 1st cousin took a WT doe this year at <20 long steps from his stand.

ADDENDA: A friend of mine from Kerrville recently took an Axis doe at <10M. = Sam said that she nearly walked INTO his ground stand. - He took her with a S&W .38SPL handgun.
He converted her into enough "invasive species" chili to feed our whole State natural center crew (I didn't count our folks but it was a CROWD.) all the Texas Red chili that we could eat.
(I'll admit to 4 "good-sized" bowls between Noon & 2100. = GREAT stuff!!)

just my opinion, tex

[brewer12345]

brewer12345,

Given that the vast majority of WT are taken at 100M (and often at much less), a .30 caliber PBCB, loaded to approximate the old .32-40WCF, makes a great deal of sense for "brush country hunting" for WT & medium game.
(I long ago quit trying to guess how many TX coyotes, jackrabbits, etc. that have fallen to my Model 760 in .300SAV.)

Fwiw, my 1st cousin took a WT doe this year at <20 long steps from his stand.

ADDENDA: A friend of mine from Kerrville recently took an Axis doe at <10M. = Sam said that she nearly walked INTO his ground stand. - He took her with a S&W .38SPL handgun.

just my opinion, tex

Understood. White tails I typically have nearly step on me, or so it seems (always while I am hunting something else, of course). A lot of my deer opportunities will be mulies, though. Bigger, heavier, and usually at a longer distance. I got skunked on my last mulie hunt, but the only shot I might have gotten (before the fog rolled in and I could not see anything) was a solid 125 yards out.

[rking22]

I have never had good accuracy from gc designs without checks, could be just me. I like having a PB design just for plinking and general loads. Then a heavy flatpoint with check for hunting loads. Shoot, nobody has just one 30 caliber mold, think there is some such requirement arround that:)

[texasnative46]

rking22,

YEP, I believe that that's a rule somewhere here.

yours, tex

[quilbilly]

I have recently been trying out a new (to me) 30 cal. Lyman custom mold which has one cavity for a 200 gr plain base Loverin style semi-point. So far my Mossberg Patrol (scout style) 308 has shot that big boolit very well keeping all shots in my hand-cut half-size coyote target at 75 yards shooting offhand with a 3x scope. The load is 7.3 gr of Bullseye giving the boolit an MV of 1200 FPS. Makes me wonder what a 200 gr semi-point won't do at a velocity over 1000 fps at 150 yards. A CB that shape will penetrate like crazy. Whatever it is used for, there is almost no felt recoil and it is almost as if the rifle has a suppressor with full house loads. BTW - Not a hint of leading and the boolits are sized to 309.

[Motor]

That is what I said " The gas check is not bonded to the bullet and is hard enough to resist skidding so that even if the lead part does skid the check will still block gas bypassing the rifling."

Maybe I'm not seeing your point here. If the lead is skidding and the check isn't accuracy will still be poor and the barrel will be terribly lead fouled causing accuracy to get worse with every shot.

Motor

[Motor]

I have never had good accuracy from gc designs without checks, could be just me. I like having a PB design just for plinking and general loads. Then a heavy flatpoint with check for hunting loads. Shoot, nobody has just one 30 caliber mold, think there is some such requirement arround that:)

I'm a rule breaker. I have one 30 caliber mold and use it for several 30 and 30ish caliber cartridges. I size it according to whatever I'm using it for. I even made a "trim die" to flat point it.

It is a gas check design but I don't use gas checks on them for sub-sonic loads. Accuracy un-checked is good enough for my use. I do intend to test them super sonic without gas checks when weather permits. I have some loaded in 300 BO for this purpose.

The no check on check design rule for accuracy is not universal. My 440gr Lee .501 is a gas check design and shoots so accurate without them I can't see how it could be any better.

Motor

[rking22]

Agreed, absolutes are a rarity. I arrived at my conclusion over 20 years ago without a lot of experimentation. We had been shooting an ideal design flat base that looked like a pb 31141, shot great without much effort. Tried the 311041 mold I had (made 2at a time , hi production) without check and it was not nearly as accurate. I've never been one to fight city hall, so have just shot pb in their application range and checked in the higher velocity ranges. Certainly not definitive, but it works for me. Also whenI see a 311041 sticking out of the case I know what its loaded for, same with the 311008. I tend to standardize on a common load set for each hunting gun, I'm not a particularly organized sort, gotta live within my nature.

[Caliboose]

rking22, I really like your idea of being able to differentiate loads by just looking at the bullet shape. I think I will plan to develop loads for certain bullets and stop guessing!

[Motor]

rking22, I really like your idea of being able to differentiate loads by just looking at the bullet shape. I think I will plan to develop loads for certain bullets and stop guessing!

This is another way powder coating helps. Guys use different color boolits to differentiate between loads. :)

Motor