Of Pots and PIDs and Going High or Going Low

[Jager]

Funny how spending a few days in single digits re-calibrates your internal thermostat. That 'bomb cyclone' a week or so back made this morning's 22 degrees seem not nearly so bad. So I feed a few splits into the wood stove, glance at the three trays of empty brass resting close by - set near the stove so they'll dry out after I wet tumbled 'em yesterday - and proceed to the kitchen to get the coffee brewing.

The mould came yesterday. A 432-277 SWC 4-Cavity PB, in brass, by NOE. The result of spending too much time in this fine thread... http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?1954-quot-Real-quot-Keith-Bullets

I don't know a thing about moulds. But I'm instantly smitten. A work of art, really. It puts me in mind of those rare guns we sometimes come across. You know, the ones that come easily to hand, like God himself wrote the specs. The ones where the trigger breaks like the kiss of an angel. The ones where it seems like you can't miss.

I'm in no hurry. Don't have anyplace indoors to melt lead, anyway. So it'll probably be spring before I can find out what this bullet casting business is all about. But you never know... here in the Mid-Atlantic we frequently receive a mid-winter surprise. A day or two of mild weather. Maybe, if I have all the stuff together...

I suppose I'm asking the unanswerable. Like this site needs another 'which pot?' thread. It's all just personal choice, isn't it? The old internet thing - everyone recommending what they themselves use. Which is fine, certainly there's value in that. But maybe there's something more, wisdom lying there around the edges?

Cheap is always good, of course. Well, except for those times it's not. I long ago learned that buying the least-cost option often leads you to the 'upgrade path.' What starts out easy on the wallet ends up anything but. I'd rather buy once and be done.

What I'd like, alas, is unobtanium. The RCBS Pro-Melt 2. Gots the nifty PID already built-in. One of those latter-day features that I'm guessing would be more helpful for a newbie like me than for you gentlemen who already have that ingrained sense of timing and temperature control, hard won over hundreds of hours and thousands of boolits.

Then again, I see lots of recommendations for the Waage. I winced when I got the email from Marcia... "a price of $237.00 plus $30.00 UPS shipping to your location." It would appear they've raised their prices of late. But it surely does look like a nice pot. I look at that nice, wide lip - and contrast that with some of the YouTube videos I've seen, where the mould is resting precariously on the lip of lesser pots...

But that then introduces the whole bottom-pour or ladle-from-the top divide. Simple, classic, and slow(er). Or somewhat-less-simple and speedy(ier). Ease of fluxing vs. ease of pouring. Drips vs. no-drips. Ladle tech vs. cantankerous valve openings.

I know. There are no wrong answers. Just different choices.

I suppose my default - what I'll go with if nothing else nudges me - is the Lee Pro 4 20-lb furnace. I know... it drips more than it should and lots of guys really hate it. But it seems ubiquitous in the bullet casting world, and that probably ought to count for something. I can't imagine its popularity is only because of its relatively low price.

Anyway, if you gentlemen (and ladies, if there are any about) have any advice for a hopefully-soon-to-be-bullet-caster, I'd love to hear it.

[Walter Laich]

my story, others may vary:

started out with Lee 20# pot. As they all do it leaked but I worked around it--something about not knowing anything better
ran across a Pro-Melt (original) and never looked back

I cast for enjoyment and having a quality pot adds immense joy to my efforts

course I understand $$ is always part of the equation

[Smoke4320]

I started back in 1978-9 ladle casting out of a Lee 5 lb pot to make bullets for a 1858 enfield That lasted just a couple years then dropped it
picked back up about 5 years ago with a lee 20 lb bottom pour like Walter they ( I bought/traded for 4 over the period of a year) all leaked nothing I did would totally stop the constant dribble .. sold them all and purchased a used Pro melt what a difference then a PID... now in casting nirvava

[Biggin]

I started last year with a used Lee #10 . Bit the boolit ( pun intended) and bought a Pro-Melt. Most of my stuff is rcbs. I'm not bad mouthing Lee I think they make fine equipment. If you don't mind tinkering with it some it some. For me the ease of use makes slightly higher end equipment more attractive to me YMMV.

[Wayne Smith]

I started with a pot and gas fire and ladle because the guys on Shooters.com told me it would be easier casting big boolits that way. I started with an RCBS 40-400CSA. Obviously that was a while ago. I still use the same equipment, never went the bottom pour path because I'd rather buy molds and guns! We all have our priorities.

[OS OK]

Me? I'm running a Lee 20# & 10#, one bought new and the other used. Yes, they are 'drip-O-matics' but mine don't constantly drip, just sometimes & often many times...but...it ain't no big deal to deal with that. Besides it's not like a drippy glue tube...everything that comes out can go back in.
Like many other Lee products there's lots of information on this forum to improve them.

Advice? Well...Depending on whether or not your in this casting business for the long haul or not, if I had to do it all over again...yep, I'd buy the RCBS. Just 'bite the boolit' and don't look back.

[GhostHawk]

I started back in the late 70's, had a fling going with holy black and CVA front stuffers.

Bought a Lee 20 lb bottom pour and hated it. I battled with that thing for 2 months and eventually gave it away to a friend in disgust.

I found a cheap 7" cast iron fry pan, a Lyman ladle, and I was in business.

I soon grew weary of all the work to keep Holy black working right, the cleaning, the mess.

But I soon found fishing sinkers and kept casting.

Eventually I washed up in this particular backwater, got back into shooting after a 20 year hiatus, and was on a really tight budget so I bought a mold, started casting more, more guns, more molds. Then a used lee dipper pot caught my eye. Ohhhh the joy. Any day I wanted, plug it in, fill it up, turn 90 degrees and watch youtube video's for 15 minutes with the mold on top to warm. Flux, stir, skim, and we were in business. No cleanup, just unplug and walk away.

Then it was a new one, with a thermostat.

Then it was the Lee Magnum Melter which holds many many times as much. Like 4 or 5 times.

Then it was a double burner hot plate, a nice one with closed plate coils.

I have a cast table from Harbor freight, mostly iron, with a partical board top which I covered with sheet steel (Black no less) from a desk. Nice rolled edges (cut side toward the back of course)

A shelf underneath for molds, mostly full of fishing sinker and the Lee 2 cavity's.

Life is good. That is my journey, yours will be yours. Hope it helps.

[dikman]

One thing to remember - you don't "need" a PID. Yes, they are nice to have but not necessary. If you get the chance to grab an "original" Promelt that will be a great way to start.

[Jager]

Thank you, gentlemen.

GhostHawk actually touches on something I hadn't considered before... cleanup at the end of a casting session. Is there a difference between a dipper pot and a bottom pour?

I can imagine that with a dipper pot you could interrupt a casting session, turn off the pot, allow the cooling lead to harden... and simply pick up where you left off the next day or the next week or whenever. The biggest challenge being that if you run different alloys you'd have to be careful to remember what particular combination you've got sitting down there in the bottom of your pot. Am I mistaken in that?

And I could imagine you might also do that with a bottom-pour pot... but then I could also envision that that's not recommended because of the valve opening. Maybe that valve opening should be free and clear when the pot is put away?

Any thoughts on this ninth-inning aspect of casting... and how it potentially relates to that dipper pot or bottom-pour choice?

[OS OK]

Thank you, gentlemen.

GhostHawk actually touches on something I hadn't considered before... cleanup at the end of a casting session. Is there a difference between a dipper pot and a bottom pour?

I can imagine that with a dipper pot you could interrupt a casting session, turn off the pot, allow the cooling lead to harden... and simply pick up where you left off the next day or the next week or whenever. The biggest challenge being that if you run different alloys you'd have to be careful to remember what particular combination you've got sitting down there in the bottom of your pot. Am I mistaken in that?

And I could imagine you might also do that with a bottom-pour pot... but then I could also envision that that's not recommended because of the valve opening. Maybe that valve opening should be free and clear when the pot is put away?

Any thoughts on this ninth-inning aspect of casting... and how it potentially relates to that dipper pot or bottom-pour choice?

Think about it..."Why would that matter?"
I run two pots, one for Hollow Point Pb and one for rifle/pistol. When I run the r/p pot I use specific blends of Pb...I put into the pot the amount of Pb I intend to use. If for some reason I don't use it all, I'll empty the pot into small 1# ingots and put them back into inventory with their respective blended ingots. They will be stamped for identity too so they don't get mixed up with something else.
After you either empty the pot or use all but 1/2" or less remaining in the bottom, the next 20#'s of blend will not be affected by the remaining Pb.

[Smoke4320]

When done casting i turn off the pot take a piece of paper write what alloy is in pot and stick under the pot

[Beagle333]

My .02: Since you've got some time..... dig around in the closets/drawers and find some things to sell; get a 2nd job on Saturday, even if it's at McDonalds; do whatever, but get a Pro Melt.

[high standard 40]

Many years ago, I started with a Lee 10 lb Production pot. I was able to make some usable bullets with that pot and some Lyman molds. That was before this great forum and the knowledge found here. After a time I tired of the whole procedure and moved all the equipment into storage. About 12 years ago I decided to take up casting again (enter the modern era). My old Lee 10 pound pot was a rust bucket by then so it landed in the trash, along with a Lyman 358156 mold which was also beyond hope. I ordered a Lee 20 pound pot and started anew, applying a lot of wisdom gathered from this forum. Compared to my earlier efforts, my results improved rapidly. I compete in handgun silhouette and I wanted to see how far I could advance using only cast bullets. I gradually grew weary of the Lee drip-o-matic and acquired an RCBS ProMelt. Wow, what a difference. Temperature control was much improved and no drips. Always looking for the ultimate, I soon had a PID and found nirvana. I am somewhat of a tinkerer and soon had some brackets made that allow me to move the PID easily between the RCBS and Lee pots. My RCBS pot stays loaded with 92-6-2 alloy for my competition casting and the Lee pot stays loaded with COWW + 2% tin for almost everything else.
I do not drain either bottom pour pot at the end of each casting session. Leaving alloy in the pot shortens the time that it takes to arrive at casting temperature. I have had no issues with the valves using this technique. I do drain and clean the pot after a few casting sessions. Each of us in this hobby have our own level of comfort in regards to "results". Being a competition shooter, I want to arrive as closely as I can to perfection. I sort my bullets visually and by weight. Using the ProMelt and my PID, I now have about 90% of all the bullets I produce fall within plus or minus 4 tenths of a grain in weight and 75% are within 2 tenths of a grain. This is from an RCBS 7mm 145 Sil mold which covers 90% of all my shooting needs. On the other hand, I know that there are far more people in this great pastime that don't require that degree of precision. To each his own. Do what you enjoy and have fun.

[lwknight]

My first Lee Pro #20 still has a good element although nothing else works. It is now a P.I.D. dip pot. I bought it because of price alone. Back then I was too poor to even pay attention.
I got the later version a few years ago and they do NOT hold 20 pounds. It is more like 14 pounds. Anyway in hindsight I wish now that I had gotten a better(more expensive) melting pot. Back then I was too poor to even pay attention.
Don't cut yourself short. If you can swing it, go for the higher quality from the start. If you literally have to fight the SWMBO ( she who must be obeyed) for every nickel to spend on the hobby, then Lee it is.

[Mr_Sheesh]

I want a second Pro Melt, now if they'll just start shipping them!

[Valley Forge]

Like Smoke 4320, I will either throw a note on top of the melt or a post-it on the pot or if I'm ladling from the Dutch oven I'll just use a "sharpie" and make notations right on the melt.

[andre3k]

I'm not looking forward to the new Pro-Melts. Looks like they'll be coming via the slow boat from China. A Magma pot is my next step.

[mold maker]

China can produce products to any specs, at a cheaper price point than American workers. They aren't replacing the cheapest on the market, so it is doable that if the correct specs are requested the results should be fine. Problem being that we don't expect the end price to so closely control the quality of what they produce. Certain quality standards are taken for granted here, but nowhere else. If we want our level of quality we have to specify every detail and closely monitor the production. The Chinese are masters at controlling costs while producing products that will meet, but not exceed the standards required.
Some little Chinese guy took my job after 39.5 years by figuring out how to do it cheaper. He was hungry for work and only one of many looking for my job, but he worked smarter with less, Ignored pollution, and sold Americans MY product for less than I could produce it.
Until Trump stopped it, :bigsmyl2:we were heading for total disaster in manufacturing.
Remember that if the first item you buy lasts forever, you have no need to replace it, and the producer will go out of business for lack of sales. As long as it last just long enough for you to be comfortable, you'll buy a second, third, and so on, creating a steady market. That is Chinese thinking.

[dikman]

Not just Chinese thinking, it's called Planned Obsolescence, and I believe it was pioneered by US businesses (could be wrong here, but that's what I read). Anyhow, you're right, it all depends on making sure the specs are right, finding the right factory in China and regularly visiting it to keep a check on things. That is what I was told by a Yank who runs a business here selling plasma cutters that he has made in China. I bought one but had to open it up to fit a longer power cable and I found it was very well built inside.