Possible double charge??

[xrider472]

I've been handloading for about 9 years now & casting boolits for about 8 years. Never an issue, til now. Shooting my New Vaquero 45 Colt a few days ago using 7.0 grains of Titegroup under the NOE 285-WFN. After 44 successful rounds, number 45 had considerable more blast, so I stopped to check things. I could not eject the brass. The gun looked fine. I don't recall any excessive recoil, just a louder report. According to Brian Pearce, 7.5 grains of the same powder is maximum at 14,000 psi under the RCBS 270-SAA boolit, which actually weighs 285 grains also with wheel weight alloy. With all that said, I was wondering if someone with the Quickload software could give me an estimation of what the pressure might be for a double charge of my 7 grain load? Thanks

[Outpost75]

Too much!!!!

[tazman]

A double charge of 14 grains should have damaged your gun.

[Outpost75]

A double charge of 14 grains should have damaged your gun.

I've seen Ruger's digest some insane loads without blowing up...
While cylinder and topstrap may have held, I would expect a bulged chamber...

Did that to an original 1884 Trapdoor firing double-charge of 22 grs. of 700X and 370-grain bullet. No apparent external damage, but required a piece of 3/8" drill rod and 3 pound dead blow hammer to get case out and rifle from then on was a wall hanger. Actually sold it for more than I p[aid for it, even with non-firing red tag warning of bulged chamber. It now decorates a cowboy themed bar above the mirror.

[Rcmaveric]

That is why I visual check all cases. Made a few gauges out of dowel rods with a line for deeper bottle neck cases. After blowing up my 6.5 Grendel I take extra precautions. I only have 2 eyes, 10 fingers, and one life living on a tight budget. Now I have an overly expensive paper weight to remind me not be stupid and be more attentive.

[xrider472]

A double charge of 14 grains should have damaged your gun.That's kinda what I was thinking. In Pearce's article, 10.5 grains was a tier 3 load. 32,000 psi

[xrider472]

I've seen Ruger's digest some insane loads without blowing up...
While cylinder and topstrap may have held, I would expect a bulged chamber...

Did that to an original 1884 Trapdoor firing double-charge of 22 grs. of 700X and 370-grain bullet. No apparent external damage, but required a piece of 3/8" drill rod and 3 pound dead blow hammer to get case out and rifle from then on was a wall hanger. Actually sold it for more than I p[aid for it, even with non-firing red tag warning of bulged chamber. It now decorates a cowboy themed bar above the mirror.Visually the cylinder looks fine. How could I measure it to check? Plug gauges?

[xrider472]

Visually the cylinder looks fine. How could I measure it to check? Plug gauges?

I did measure it with my calipers. That chamber measures the same as the other five. Just not sure calipers are accurate enough?

[17nut]

Double charge?
65kpsi and an unharmed gun says no!
But if so then play the lottery cause you are truly lucky ;-)

212076

[xrider472]

Double charge?
65kpsi and an unharmed gun says no!
But if so then play the lottery cause you are truly lucky ;-)

212076Thank you, sir. That's what I figured. I knew it was going to be high. Wow.

Now I'm stumped.

[tazman]

It may be that a partial charge dropped in one case while the rest of the charge was hung up until the next case got under the powder measure. You might find a light load in there somewhere.
The over loaded case would not have been a double, just an overcharge.
However this seldom happens with Titegroup.

[xrider472]

It may be that a partial charge dropped in one case while the rest of the charge was hung up until the next case got under the powder measure. You might find a light load in there somewhere.
The over loaded case would not have been a double, just an overcharge.
However this seldom happens with Titegroup.That's the best explanation so far. I agree about Titegroup. It flows so well thru the measure. I've never had any issues with my setup. Dillon 550 with the standard powder measure that comes with it.

[xrider472]

Thanks to everyone for the info & responses.

[35remington]

If you have a high pressure event with reloaded ammo, the way to bet is that if too much powder could get in the case, too much powder did get into the case. How it did is secondary to vigilance from here on out in preventing too much powder from happening again.

The extreme compactness and dark color of Titegroup make overcharges very hard to spot even when the case is resting alongside others in a loading block.

For me, safest way after dumping charge is to immediately seat the bullet. Progressive presses are another whole can of worms and one must work out foolproof procedures that work for you and stick to them.

I am not perfect myself. One time back in the day when loading otherwise safe high bulk Red Dot in the 45 ACP on a progressive (double charge is really noticeable) I went the other direction and let the powder in the hopper get too low, ejecting a few undercharged cases in a big pile of properly charged ones. I could narrow it down to maybe a few undercharges in fifty possibles, which necessitated going to the range with a brass rod and hammer.

Fortunately the charge was enough the bullet cleared the barrel but just barely a couple of times. The gun did not cycle. Now the rather small measure hopper is never let below half full.

[RickinTN]

A bulged chamber won't be on the ends where you can measure it with dial calipers. It will be further up in the chamber, probably somewhere around where the webbing of the case tapers to parallel. If it is bulged the case from a standard charged load will be difficult to extract.
Take care,
Rick

[tomme boy]

This is why tightgroup should not be used in large capacity cases. It is one of the lowest bulk powders made.

[earlmck]

To get brass that won't eject you likely did exceed 60k psi. Rugers are strong -- I'm guessing you did indeed have a double charge. You just have to be double extra careful when using a powder charge that leaves lots of room for a double charge -- I get under a good light and visually inspect the powder level. (I do that with all charges, but I might look twice with something with as much extra room as your Tightgroup load!)

[xrider472]

[QUOTE=35remington;4264072]If you have a high pressure event with reloaded ammo, the way to bet is that if too much powder could get in the case, too much powder did get into the case. How it did is secondary to vigilance from here on out in preventing too much powder from happening again.



Agreed. This is my favorite caliber and gun to load for. After thousands of rounds loaded and fired, this incident is a little unsettling. Just glad it wasn't worse. I may go back to using Unique for visual volume purposes. Lol

[xrider472]

A bulged chamber won't be on the ends where you can measure it with dial calipers. It will be further up in the chamber, probably somewhere around where the webbing of the case tapers to parallel. If it is bulged the case from a standard charged load will be difficult to extract.
Take care,
Rick


Thanks for the info. I'll give this a try next time I go to the range.

[xrider472]

To get brass that won't eject you likely did exceed 60k psi. Rugers are strong -- I'm guessing you did indeed have a double charge.


I had to remove the cylinder when I got home and hammer the brass out with a punch. My first and only experience with anything overpressure, I hope....

[Ed_Shot]

+1 for what 35remington said: "For me, safest way after dumping charge is to immediately seat the bullet."

[Char-Gar]

Double charges are the bane of the reloader. I have had only one overcharge, which was a 38 Special round, loaded with a Dillon Square D, which I had just purchased. I promptly sold the Dillon and went back to single stage reloading, with a visual check on each charged case before the bullet is seated.

The handgun was a good pre-war Colt Officer's Model. Thankfully no harm was done to the revolver.

[lefty o]

youd not see any damage to a ruger single aciton until you were way way past 65,000psi.

[xrider472]

youd not see any damage to a ruger single aciton until you were way way past 65,000psi.This is a medium frame, not the larger standard Blackhawk size.

[xrider472]

But I hope you are correct!!

[TMenezes]

Amazing that you didn't notice a massive increase in recoil. I would think going from 14k to over 60k psi would have resulted in an immense difference in recoil...

Wonder if maybe you short stroked it and gave it maybe an extra half charge? I could see that happening on a Dillon 550 when if you wanted to make sure the round in the next station got a good crimp. It's possible since it's a manually indexing press. Maybe, just a thought.

[xrider472]

A bulged chamber won't be on the ends where you can measure it with dial calipers. It will be further up in the chamber, probably somewhere around where the webbing of the case tapers to parallel. If it is bulged the case from a standard charged load will be difficult to extract.
Take care,
RickWell, I went out & shot a known standard pressure round in the suspect chamber. I couldn't eject the case with the extractor rod. What now? Send it to Ruger for a new cylinder?

[trapper9260]

The way that works for me when load powder in my cases is that after I prime the cases ,I turn them upside down and then when I put the powder in they will be turn up side.and do not take the case till you will dump the powder in. As for the OP ask check first with a gunsmith and see what they say first.Then go from there.

[tja6435]

Yes, $90 for a new cylinder and $50 to fit it. I had a Super Blackhawk cylinder replaced, they did it under warranty but that was the price if I had to pay for it.

[Mr_Sheesh]

Beats the HECK out of serious hospital bills, at least!

[xrider472]

Yes, $90 for a new cylinder and $50 to fit it. I had a Super Blackhawk cylinder replaced, they did it under warranty but that was the price if I had to pay for it.Thanks for the info. Dang shipping is what hurts!!

[xrider472]

Beats the HECK out of serious hospital bills, at least!Agreed!!

[yeahbub]

For me, safest way after dumping charge is to immediately seat the bullet. Progressive presses are another whole can of worms and one must work out foolproof procedures that work for you and stick to them.

What 35Remington said. Some years ago, I was distracted, missed a case and it led to some embarrassment at a falling plate match. The competitors were a helpful bunch and it all worked out, but it could just as easily have gone the other way. Charge a case, seat a boolit. It's the only method I know of which has some built-in fool-proofery. I pick a prepped case out of a pile in a bowl or tub, charge it, seat the boolit and put it in a loading tray, going from visually unorganized to ordered rows. It's disturbing to have that feeling of "Did I or didn't I . . . ?" Not sure how to adapt that to progressives other than to keep a sharp eye on the proceedings.

The New Vaqueros in .45 Colt have scary thin chamber walls when I look at them. Obviously, Ruger uses good materials, but I want to find an Old Vaquero in that caliber for the added margin of safety.

[BigBore45]

What 35Remington said. Some years ago, I was distracted, missed a case and it led to some embarrassment at a falling plate match. The competitors were a helpful bunch and it all worked out, but it could just as easily have gone the other way. Charge a case, seat a boolit. It's the only method I know of which has some built-in fool-proofery. I pick a prepped case out of a pile in a bowl or tub, charge it, seat the boolit and put it in a loading tray, going from visually unorganized to ordered rows. It's disturbing to have that feeling of "Did I or didn't I . . . ?" Not sure how to adapt that to progressives other than to keep a sharp eye on the proceedings.

The New Vaqueros in .45 Colt have scary thin chamber walls when I look at them. Obviously, Ruger uses good materials, but I want to find an Old Vaquero in that caliber for the added margin of safety.
Obviously not to thin. I bought one when they first came out. Called ruger and asked still ruger only loads? Was told they will handle them but you would beat the gun apart and stretch the frame. I'm sure ruger thought this out with all the load data out there.

[BigBore45]

Glad ur ok.

[Mr_Sheesh]

With progressive loaders you just have to always leave the loader in the same exact state any time you stop loading, and if you don't have OCD then channel someone who has it, while loading :p

[obssd1958]

Check with your local buddy/friend/pal that has an FFL (or just your local mom and pop gun shop!), and see if they will send the revolver in for you. If I remember right, they can ship via USPS at a substantially lower rate than you can ship it via FedEx or UPS. They may do it as a favor for a good customer, or charge just a small handling fee, making the overall cost still less than if you ship it yourself.
You might also call Ruger customer service, and ask if they can help someway with shipping it in for the cylinder replacement. They may be able to steer you to a lower cost alternative, also.
Good luck!

Don

[dverna]

What 35Remington said. Some years ago, I was distracted, missed a case and it led to some embarrassment at a falling plate match. The competitors were a helpful bunch and it all worked out, but it could just as easily have gone the other way. Charge a case, seat a boolit. It's the only method I know of which has some built-in fool-proofery. I pick a prepped case out of a pile in a bowl or tub, charge it, seat the boolit and put it in a loading tray, going from visually unorganized to ordered rows. It's disturbing to have that feeling of "Did I or didn't I . . . ?" Not sure how to adapt that to progressives other than to keep a sharp eye on the proceedings.

The New Vaqueros in .45 Colt have scary thin chamber walls when I look at them. Obviously, Ruger uses good materials, but I want to find an Old Vaquero in that caliber for the added margin of safety.

On progressive presses like the 1050, 650 Dillons, I use(d) a Powder Check to monitor powder drops. I believe a progressive so equipped is the safest way to reload. On rifle reloads, I do as 35 Rem does and most rifle loads I use cannot be double charged anyway.

More than 99.5% of my reloads are made on progressive presses. But I am primarily a pistol caliber and shotgun shooter. In over 40 years have never had a double charge.

[xrider472]

Well, I called Ruger yesterday afternoon. They helped out on the shipping, so hopefully it won't take too long to get back.

[xrider472]

Glad ur ok.Thanks

[garrisonjoe]

Titegroup also has a little known tendency to clump up if you do not always return unused powder back to the bottle when you finish a loading session. In powder measures, that normally starts giving erratic-low weights. But then a clump can get stuck in the drop tube, and release with a later drop, and you have an overcharge by 30-60%. I've seen clumps so tough they could not be broken up easily with end of a pencil. If you don't return TG to the bottle as a matter of habit, you may want to start doing so.

good luck, garrisonjoe

[xrider472]

Titegroup also has a little known tendency to clump up if you do not always return unused powder back to the bottle when you finish a loading session. In powder measures, that normally starts giving erratic-low weights. But then a clump can get stuck in the drop tube, and release with a later drop, and you have an overcharge by 30-60%. I've seen clumps so tough they could not be broken up easily with end of a pencil. If you don't return TG to the bottle as a matter of habit, you may want to start doing so.

good luck, garrisonjoeThanks for the info. I usually only load 50 to 100 rounds at a time & always dump the powder back in the container when I'm done. Good to know though.

[ScotMc]

I would look for a material testing company that specializes in steel testing. Magna fluxing, dye penetrate test and or X-ray if feasible.
Many moons ago, I had a neighbor "help me" with some way over board Red Dot or Bullseye loads. When I shot them in my Super Black Hawk, I had to remove the cylinder to get the brass out.
Shot ok for about 2 years. I was shooting 20 grains of 2400 with 240 JHP and the cylinder came apart. Luckily no one was injured. On the remaining pieces of the cylinder you could clearly see from the carbon where the cylinder was fractured. Testing or cylinder replacement to be sure. Better safe than sorry.

[bigdog454]

bee reloading since I was 18 (am 71 now), never had a accidental powder overload till about 2 years ago. loaded 5 or so grains of 231 in a 45 colt (don't recall exact load) with no problems, then I had a squib load. At the time I didn't give it too much thought, a few shot on BOOM and the Ruger cylinder came apart. back to the bench and started weighing the loads in the rest of the box; found a light load and then a double charge. Starting searching for the cause and found that a beatle (like a lady bug) had wouked it way up into the discharge tube of the powder dispencer. Aparantly it allowed a normal charge to pass and then would block a charge, upon the next brass it allowed the double charge. I now check the discharge tube before every loading session.
BD

[gnostic]

I had a similar experience with 38spl a couple months ago. I believe a double charge of 3.8 grains = 7.6gr was dropped, when my 550 Dillon wouldn't reliably pick-up a primer causing me to stop and backup the operation. Like you, I was loading Titegroup except with a 158 grain SW. The recoil felt about like a full power .357 and the case came out in two pieces, but didn't damage my 2.5" 686-2.

[Plate plinker]

I would look for a material testing company that specializes in steel testing. Magna fluxing, dye penetrate test and or X-ray if feasible.
Many moons ago, I had a neighbor "help me" with some way over board Red Dot or Bullseye loads. When I shot them in my Super Black Hawk, I had to remove the cylinder to get the brass out.
Shot ok for about 2 years. I was shooting 20 grains of 2400 with 240 JHP and the cylinder came apart. Luckily no one was injured. On the remaining pieces of the cylinder you could clearly see from the carbon where the cylinder was fractured. Testing or cylinder replacement to be sure. Better safe than sorry.

Good example and reason to get a new cylinder.
A whole lot cheaper than a new eyeball or finger!

[303Guy]

My finding with the charge then seat method is one of two things can happen. First, something distracts you as you are about to throw the lever and you skip the stroke or something distracts you just as you stroke the lever and you repeat the stroke. The double charge was not an issue since the powder over flowed but the empty case left a bullet in the chamber that I didn't know about.

I will never powder and seat again. Now, even when loading a single round for testing, I will put it in the tray and shine a light into it and look. I also only use powders that can be visually checked for level, ie bulky powders. That empty case could have resulted in a double bullet firing!

That's just me after a mishap or two.

[kenton]

I reload a lot of 38 special and the system that works best for me is to stand 50 cases up in a divider from a 45 acp box. I hold the divider in my hand and fill each case while counting my lever throws. If I get to the end with out landing on 50 I know something is wrong. I then measure one more charge in the scale to verify it is still accurate, and visually check all cases. Lastly seat the bullets. For me it is easier to concentrate intently on one motion than to concentrate on a multi-step process.

[Lloyd Smale]

I did a double charge with aa2 in my 45 colt montado. Same thing as you. I was shooting it and one shot was defineately an eye opener. I had to pound the brass out and after an inspection I kept shooting. First cylinder with light loads had me pounding out the case in that same chamber. took it home and found I had bulged the cylinder. Ruger was real good about it and had me send it in and they fit a new cylinder.

[gunwonk]

Now, even when loading a single round for testing, I will put it in the tray and shine a light into it and look.

+1. I keep one of those Harbor Freight free flashlights on the bench. :)

[xrider472]

I did a double charge with aa2 in my 45 colt montado. Same thing as you. I was shooting it and one shot was defineately an eye opener. I had to pound the brass out and after an inspection I kept shooting. First cylinder with light loads had me pounding out the case in that same chamber. took it home and found I had bulged the cylinder. Ruger was real good about it and had me send it in and they fit a new cylinder.Thanks for the info. My New Vaquero just arrived at Ruger two days ago. Just waiting to hear from them. Hopefully my experience with them will mirror yours.

[madsenshooter]

I ruined a Bisley in 45 colt with 45 magnum level blue dot loads. While the cylinder and frame were plenty strong, the 45 caliber barrel just ahead of the frame wasn't. This was an early model, I think they make them with thicker barrels now. I could see a frosting of the bluing ahead of the frame that let me know the barrel had swelled. I never had any extraction issues at the pressure level I was operating at.