.45 ACP and Unique powder

[cpaspr]

I have a few old Lyman/Ideal molds I got from my dad. For the .45 ACP, I have 452460 200gr SWC and 452374 225/230gr round nose molds. I also have a 454309 wadcutter mold, but that's more for the revolver than the 1911, so I'm not really asking about that (but over 5.4gr of Unique it shoots POA out of my Blackhawk).

Anyway, I've done a lot of reading, and lots of people are, and have been for a long time, saying their favorite loads with these boolits and Unique is 6.0gr. Some like even more. But most of the discussions I found were from 2008 to maybe 2013. Nothing much newer.

Alliant says max load for a 200gr Speer LSWC is 5.4gr. Well, the Speer LSWC has a longer nose and a shorter base, so the 452460 sits even deeper in the case when loaded. That means more pressure, and the 6.0gr load is already 10% over the max recommended for the Speer boolit.

Alliant says max load for the 230gr boolit is 5.8gr. Again, lower than what lots of people are shooting.

So, what say ya'll who like these combinations? Has Alliant merely cut back their recommendations due to lawyers?

Thanks in advance.

[BKDinTexas]

That is very low and much lower than it used to be. I use 5.3 gr of Unique with a 230 gr hardcast just for plinking! I am loading 6.0 gr under a 255 gr SWC hardcast in 45 acp cases and shooting it in my S&W 625 revolver with no signs of overpressure at all. I am using Unique that is from a much older batch though.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Welcome to the forum, BKDinTexas.

I used 6.0 gr. of Unique behind a hard cast 230 RN for years and it was both accurate and functioned everything I own. But 3-4 years ago they convinced me that 5.5 gr. would do as well and be kinder to my older 1911s, so I dropped back to that load. It works just fine also.

[cpaspr]

That is very low and much lower than it used to be. I use 5.3 gr of Unique with a 230 gr hardcast just for plinking! I am loading 6.0 gr under a 255 gr SWC hardcast in 45 acp cases and shooting it in my S&W 625 revolver with no signs of overpressure at all. I am using Unique that is from a much older batch though.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

Might that be a Lyman 454424 Keith SWC? That was another mold I got from my dad. 15gr of 2400 in the .45 Colt does a serious number on bowling pins.

The Unique I'm currently working on is from a square metal can, so yeah, old stuff. I have some newer, but I'm still working from the old stuff.

[BKDinTexas]

I think so but am unsure of the mold number. I buy my cast bullets. Don't tell anyone or they will kick me off the board! Lol!

My Unique is not quite that old. March of 1997 is what I wrote on the can. I have multiple generations. I like the smoky blue haze and funky smell of the old stuff when you shoot it on a damp morning!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

[jcren]

Look at the listed pressures of these loads and compare to pressures for jacketed bullets of the same weight range. Seems to me, most newer load data babies lead bullet info.

[Texas by God]

Six grs of "Unk"- as we used to call it- works great in the .45acp.
Maybe a tad much for the 230 gr boolit but I never had a problem. Welcome to the forum.
Great folks here with thousands of years of combined knowledge!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Harter66]

I load 5.5 Unique for a pair of 1917s with the NOE version of the 454424 and 452-200 RNFP Lee . The RBH likes it too . Even a high point carbine likes them .
I'm almost out of the 12# keg of 1968 then I'll have to start all over with 2 cans totaling 12# of 06' ........

[35remington]

The low charge with the Speer SWC is to duplicate target velocities and avoid leading. Six grains with the 225 RN is fine and more or less duplicates or slightly exceeds military hardball. There is no practical reason to go faster.

What you do NOT want to do is go up to 7.3 grains of Unique like a number of Lyman manuals suggest using the 452374, including the most recent 50th edition. That would be folly and I suggest you ignore such overloading. No one else comes anywhere near that and the time for Lyman to remove that overloading suggestion is now decades past due.

[pworley1]

The newest Lyman handbook lists the Unique loads for the 452374 as 5.5 to 7.3. I use 5.5 when I use Unique. For the 452460 it lists the loads as 5.0 to 7.5. I use 5.5 for it also. Both have always worked well. I use more Bullseye and Red Dot with the 45acp than Unique, but Unique is also a good choice.

[cpaspr]

The low charge with the Speer SWC is to duplicate target velocities and avoid leading. Six grains with the 225 RN is fine and more or less duplicates or slightly exceeds military hardball. There is no practical reason to go faster.

What you do NOT want to do is go up to 7.3 grains of Unique like a number of Lyman manuals suggest using the 452374, including the most recent 50th edition. That would be folly and I suggest you ignore such overloading. No one else comes anywhere near that and the time for Lyman to remove that overloading suggestion is now decades past due.

35remington - That is one of the things I noted in doing research. I was purposely ignoring Lyman's suggestion, as I had seen elsewhere where you had pointed out their idiocy.

[cpaspr]

Not to derail my own thread, but what about Titegroup with cast boolits? I've seen lots of people say it burns hot, and it's great for jacketed but stay away from it for cast. But lately I've seen where yes, it burns hot and heats the barrel faster, but doesn't seem to melt the base of the boolits, so who cares? it works great behind cast boolits.

So, in addition to the Unique question, what about Titegroup?

[Texas by God]

TiteGroup has 45 acp fans also. I would use it if I wasn't hooked on Bullseye and Red Dot for the same chore.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[xrayfk05]

What you do NOT want to do is go up to 7.3 grains of Unique like a number of Lyman manuals suggest using the 452374, including the most recent 50th edition. That would be folly and I suggest you ignore such overloading. No one else comes anywhere near that and the time for Lyman to remove that overloading suggestion is now decades past due.

Alliant themselves show a load of 7.3 grains with a speer 230 CPRN so it may not be such an overload as you suggest.
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipePrint.aspx?gtypeid=1&weight=230&shellid=35&bulletid=410&bdid=1481

[cpaspr]

Alliant themselves show a load of 7.3 grains with a speer 230 CPRN so it may not be such an overload as you suggest.
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipePrint.aspx?gtypeid=1&weight=230&shellid=35&bulletid=410&bdid=1481

Doesn't mean it's right, even if it is on Alliant's website. Alliant is treating it as though it's copper plated, and is using the same suggested max load as they give for a 200gr Speer Gold Dot Hollow Point. They're also showing the same bullet/powder combo twice with different OALs, one from a 5" barrel and one without any barrel length shown. With exact same load recommendations and velocity.

Those bullets are copper washed, which per most of the data I've seen from several copper washed bullet manufacturers, should be treated as cast lead bullets as far as loading data is concerned.

[umwminer]

Jeff Cooper’s load for lead 200gr SWC’s -he used the H&G 68 - was 7.0gr Unique .
He loaded and carried that for what he termed “ serious social situations “.

[35remington]

I will repeat......do not use 7.3 grains Unique.

Pretend like you believe I am actually speaking from experience and chronograph obtainable velocities with a much lighter charge than 7.3 grains using the 452374 or any similar 230. As I have already.

It will cause you no harm to assume I just may be right. Said by a guy who’s been there and done that. What you do with the info is up to you.

Whatever charge causes you to obtain 950 FPS should be your maximum, and for constant use 100 FPS should be knocked off that velocity. I got to that point using way less than 7.3 grains. You just might find out the same thing yourself. Better to find out the right way.

A hint: rearward slide velocity is a function of forward bullet velocity. If the load is going way faster than standard or even Plus P velocities, it is overdriving the gun even if the load is no more than the manual suggests as to charge weight. Pounding away on a pistol has both reliability downsides and long term issues.

Cast lubricated bullets obtain higher velocities than similar charge weights under equal weight jacketed or plated bullets, with plated bullets being especially slow in some offerings. Since the bullet is driven forward faster, the slide comes rearward harder. Undesirable.

Nothing is to be gained taking a reloading manual’s suggestions over what actual results are telling you. Actual results have the final say.

[Larry Gibson]

Jeff Cooper’s load for lead 200gr SWC’s -he used the H&G 68 - was 7.0gr Unique .
He loaded and carried that for what he termed “ serious social situations “.

Actually it was 7.5 gr Unique with the 200 gr SWC. Both the H&G cast of WQ'd #2 alloy and the Hornady 200 gr XTP loaded over 7.5 gr Unique produce psi (I measured it) about half way between the SAAMI MAP for standard 45 ACP loads and +P loads.

[35remington]

FWIW, just under that charge (7.3 grains) with the Lee HG 68 200 SWC sorta copy (I say sorta because it seats a little deeper in the case than the more faithful copies) produced noticeably over 1100 FPS from my 5” 1911. As in 1142 FPS for a five shot average. I thought that more than what I wanted to shoot for any frequency. 200 FPS slower would be more like it. From a five inch Smith 625-3 I got 1100, 1067, 1099, 1073 for four chronographed shots. B/C gap after considerable shooting is 0.006.”

7.9 Unique under a 185 XTP loaded to 1.220” in mixed cases got 1111, 1090, 1171, 1146 and 1139 in the 1911. In a 4.2 inch Ruger P97 they went 1045, 1071, 1040 and 1088.

Turning to the Lee 230-2R, 6.5 Unique recorded from 920 to 960 in mixed cases depending upon whether the powder was forward or rearward for over 20 chronographed shots. Somewhat to ny surprise the Hornady 230 JRN produced very similar velocities over the same charge. This loaded to 1.265” in Winchester cases with Winchester LP primers. The Lee 230 was loaded to 1.270.” The same charge under the aforementioned Lee SWC in a 4.2 inch Ruger went 948, 949, 959, 971, 957. This loaded to 1.250” as before.

I have sources that seem reputable claim as little as 810 FPS average velocity with 6.5 grains Unique and a 230 JRN. Somehow I am outrunning that with carefully weighed charges by over 100 FPS or more. Variables may account for some of that, but you may find your gun may be like mine, especially on warmish summer days when you are likely to be shooting a lot.

The message I intended to send is this: if you don’t have a way to verify how fast the load is running, don’t necessarily “shop” for higher end data without knowing where lower charges get you first.

Suggesting lighter charges of Unique in the 6 grain range with 230 LRN is clearly not running the gun at maximum allowable pressure, but it is very likely running the gun in the range it is supposed to be running at. With 230 LRN of ball profile loaded to 1.265” 6.5 grains of Unique is as high as I go even for infrequent use, and one would be hard pressed to find a use for the load unless you wanted most penetration for whatever reason. It just about matches 230 Plus P velocity with a lead bullet.....and that’s fast enough.

Using the 230 Remington Golden Saber H.P. bullet loaded to 1.240” over 6.5 grains Unique got 881 (powder rearward) and 861 (powder forward) for two shots. This bullet has an oddball design with a narrow full caliber driving band at the base and a long sub caliber near bore riding nose section. These characteristics may account for for a slight velocity loss compared to a bullet with a longer full caliber bearing surface.

The other note....bearing surface, bullet lubricant, bullet surface hardness (plated versus jacketed versus cast versus swaged) and seating depth in the case surely do affect results obtained.

[AviatorTroy]

Not to hijack the thread but I just bought a box of the Hornady swaged 200gr SWC and I’d like to load up a few dozen for hiking, camping, woods scenarios where I might surprise a mountain lion. Alliants online data for Unique shows 5.4gr. I have other older manuals that show 7.1-7.3 grains as a maximum for 200gr bullets. And the Cooper load is 7.5 which I would consider way too hot.

I just want to know if 7.0 grains would be considered safe, in a modern 1911 with a shock buffer. I have absolutely no plans of shooting this load much at all, only to carry in the woods.

Anecdotally, I have only loaded the Lee 230gr TC in .45acp and I like it very much with 6.0 grains of Unique or 5.0gr of Bullseye. But I’m way too constrained on time with a young family to get any casting in these days...

[onelight]

Not to hijack the thread but I just bought a box of the Hornady swaged 200gr SWC and I’d like to load up a few dozen for hiking, camping, woods scenarios where I might surprise a mountain lion. Alliants online data for Unique shows 5.4gr. I have other older manuals that show 7.1-7.3 grains as a maximum for 200gr bullets. And the Cooper load is 7.5 which I would consider way too hot.

I just want to know if 7.0 grains would be considered safe, in a modern 1911 with a shock buffer. I have absolutely no plans of shooting this load much at all, only to carry in the woods.

Anecdotally, I have only loaded the Lee 230gr TC in .45acp and I like it very much with 6.0 grains of Unique or 5.0gr of Bullseye. But I’m way too constrained on time with a young family to get any casting in these days...
My experience with Hornady and Speer lead bullets is they lead my barrel at much more than starting loads they shoot good but not fast.
I believe that is why the data from Hornady appears low for that bullet
For me I can load commercial Hi-Tek bullets faster with less chance of leading.

[AviatorTroy]

Leading is definitely a concern, these bullets seem very soft and I’m not too sure about the lube. On the other hand I have shot many of the Hornady swaged HBWC and SWC in .38 special with no problems.

[Gray Fox]

Coating with Lee liquid lube in the normal manner helps some with leading, especially the Hornady ones with whatever their dry lube is. GF

[trails4u]

7.9 Unique under a 185 XTP loaded to 1.220” in mixed cases got 1111, 1090, 1171, 1146 and 1139 in the 1911. In a 4.2 inch Ruger P97 they went 1045, 1071, 1040 and 1088.

I've run the same bullet, powder and COAL at 6.7gn Unique and average 950fps. Mine in an R1. I stopped there....accurate and manageable.

[Larry Gibson]

"And the Cooper load is 7.5 which I would consider way too hot."

"Too hot"....not at all. SAAMI MAP for the 45 ACP is 21,000 psi and for +P 23,000 psi.

Pressure testing in a 10" Contender barrel with an Oehler M43 PBL produced the following psi's;

For "refererence"

WCC80 Ball; 918 fps at 16,500 psi
Winchester 230 FMJ; 947 fps at 15,500 psi
Speer 200 gr JHP (FAT); 1044 fps at 15,300 psi

+P
Corbon 230 JHP; 1039 fps at 21,300 psi
Hornady CD 220 tipped; 1079 fps at 22,000 psi

Reloads

Lee 230 TC, 5 gr Bullseye; 980 fps at 16,700 psi
Lee 200 SWC, 5 gr 700X; 1010 fps at 14,100 psi
Lee 200 gr SWC (copy of H&G 68), 7.5 gr Unique (Cooper load); 1155 fps at 18,800 psi.
Hornady 20 gr XTP, 7.5 gr Unique; 1149 fps at 18,700 psi.

All the above loads give normal velocities, as expected, in a Colt M1911 Series 70 with 5" barrel. Those range from 830 to 1015 fps.

[RJM52]

..greats and informative posts as usual Larry...

Bob

[fivegunner]

Thank you for posting that Larry.

[onelight]

Coating with Lee liquid lube in the normal manner helps some with leading, especially the Hornady ones with whatever their dry lube is. GF
I have found that to be also , it just adds another step to the process .

[AviatorTroy]

Excellent, thank you.

[mvintx]

"And the Cooper load is 7.5 which I would consider way too hot."

"Too hot"....not at all. SAAMI MAP for the 45 ACP is 21,000 psi and for +P 23,000 psi.

Pressure testing in a 10" Contender barrel with an Oehler M43 PBL produced the following psi's;

For "refererence"

WCC80 Ball; 918 fps at 16,500 psi
Winchester 230 FMJ; 947 fps at 15,500 psi
Speer 200 gr JHP (FAT); 1044 fps at 15,300 psi

+P
Corbon 230 JHP; 1039 fps at 21,300 psi
Hornady CD 220 tipped; 1079 fps at 22,000 psi

Reloads

Lee 230 TC, 5 gr Bullseye; 980 fps at 16,700 psi
Lee 200 SWC, 5 gr 700X; 1010 fps at 14,100 psi
Lee 200 gr SWC (copy of H&G 68), 7.5 gr Unique (Cooper load); 1155 fps at 18,800 psi.
Hornady 20 gr XTP, 7.5 gr Unique; 1149 fps at 18,700 psi.

All the above loads give normal velocities, as expected, in a Colt M1911 Series 70 with 5" barrel. Those range from 830 to 1015 fps.

So Larry, would your Lee 230 TC at 980 fps and 16,700 psi be safe to shoot in my series 80 Gold Cup with a 16 pound recoil spring? Your data for WCC80 ball is near the same pressure range. I have read that shooting 230 grain ball ammo should be avoided in Gold Cup pistols.

[Larry Gibson]

So Larry, would your Lee 230 TC at 980 fps and 16,700 psi be safe to shoot in my series 80 Gold Cup with a 16 pound recoil spring? Your data for WCC80 ball is near the same pressure range. I have read that shooting 230 grain ball ammo should be avoided in Gold Cup pistols.

The 980 fps velocity is out of the test 10" Contender barrel which is twice as long as a standard 5" barrel in your Series 80 Gold Cup. The 16 lb spring was standard weight for use in M1911s from the beginning in 1911. Firing the Lee 230 TC over 5 gr Bullseye at 16,700 psi [average during that test] would be no different from a safety standpoint than shooting the WCC80 Ball or any other US military 230 gr ball made for use in M1911s. Your Series 80 Gold Cup was actually made within specs to shoot US military hard ball ammunition.

Out of my Colt Series 70 M1911 with the factory 5" barrel that load runs right at 850 fps. With a 5.5" match barrel with a very tight match chamber that load runs 910 +/- fps. I use a 16 lb spring without any problems even after many thousands of rounds of that and similar loads.

274116

[mvintx]

Thank you very much for the information Larry.

[Sailormilan2]

From the old(VERY OLD) Lyman 45th Reloading manual

Max loads for Unique powder.
185 gr Lyman 452389 7.2 gr 1081 fps
200 gr Lyman 452460 7.2 gr 1041 fps
225 gr Lyman 452374 7.2 gr 967 fps

230 gr FMJ 7.2 gr 960 fps

Factory Duplication load
230 gr FMJ 6.5 gr 877 fps

[ddixie884]

Actually it was 7.5 gr Unique with the 200 gr SWC. Both the H&G cast of WQ'd #2 alloy and the Hornady 200 gr XTP loaded over 7.5 gr Unique produce psi (I measured it) about half way between the SAAMI MAP for standard 45 ACP loads and +P loads.

Cooper also used 7.2gr under a 215gr swc version of the #68. When I was shooting IPSC I used 7gr under a 230 and a 200gr Saeco clone of the #68. I always made major............

[muskeg13]

If you have a hankering to go up to a 250 grain load, I've had good luck using between 4.5 and 5.5 grains of Unique in both a Charter Arms .45 ACP Pitbull and several M1911s. Using old Lyman Ideal data for .455 Webley and .45 Auto Rim, I could go up another grain, but see no reason to. Achieving low to mid-700s in the small 2.5" revolver and up to 790 or so in the M1911s is enough for me.

[Stephen Cohen]

Lyman 44 lists 7.2 gr Unique with 200gr cast as max, I would say a 7gr load could be classed at a +P load and would be safe for the use you plan. Regards Stephen

[badguybuster]

Ive been using 6.2 grains of Unique under some 255 grain lswc i purchased off gunbroker. They are around 14 on the brinell and work great for woods.carry/handgun hunting.

[AviatorTroy]

Well I tried 7.0 grains of Unique and 6.0 grains of Universal and I got slightly better accuracy from the Universal load. Good enough to consistently hit an 8” gong with my 1911 at 100 yards off a rest.

[trebleplink]

I used 5.6gn of 231 for years with 200 gn swc. And Unique is slower than that - I seem to recall 6. something for it.