Why?

[joeb33050]

Why paper patch?
Sometimes, to make bullets from a given mold you have fit a gun. Ex: Maybe. 314 bullet patched to 8mm. I understand that.
The CBA accuracy guys are not paper patching, so it ain't about accuracy at their velocities.
The BP guys seem to be shooting plain grooved bullets, if I understand the threads/sites.
In Harrison's book it was about high velocity with smokeless. Is that the reason, for smokeless?
Why with BP? What am I missing?
Thanks;
joe b.

[docone31]

With me, it is for high velocity and accuracy. I have an Enfield, #1MKIII .303, 03-A3 Carbine, and G63 Gustav 7.62
Paper patching for me is a way to close the gap. I like casting my own, wrapping it, and trying to get it on paper. I like the way paper looks on a casting. I like the idea of paper polishing the bore. I do not like the cost of jacketeds.
Essentially, paper patching keeps me occupied on my days off. A long time ago, I knew an old man, and he paper patched. He didn't speak much and he liked me. I was just a kid and knew everything about nothing. He liked me anyway. He had this old Sharps his father gave him. It had been converted to cartridge. Some did that back then. He showed me the primer corrosion on the barrel where the nipple used to be. They replaced the breech block back then.
He was an old man, and missed his dad. I liked the way those long paper patched cartridges looked. I never forgot that. Most everything else, but not that.
Now, I am trying to figuire out how to make it work for me.
So far, so good.
He couldn't walk much anymore when I knew him. He showed me his old photos and told me about them. He showed me his father's Colt conversion. Back then they did not have the money for a Colt New Army. They converted the 1851s. He had one. Back then, no one cared about them. Couldn't get ammo. They were rimfire!
That is why I paper patch.
Kills the time also.

[BrentD]

Good answer docone31

I would add to it because you always look better at the line with a paper patched bullet - that's important you know.

And just because. Hell if that is good enough for mountain climbers, it's good enough for shooters.

Brent

[beemer]

I have been asked the same thing about lead and casting. Most guys I know only shoot and load enough to support their hunting and cast is to much trouble. As far as paper patch goes I guess everyone has their own reasons. Some want to use the moulds they have, some want to use softer lead for hunting, maybe push the vel. or get buy without the gas check. I tried it for the same reason that I tried casting in the first place. It is something else to tinker with and try different things just to see what happens. It is slow but I don't shoot mass quantities so sitting down at the kitchen table and rolling up about 20 or 30 is not a big deal, not like I am missing anything on the tube anyway. I guess the real answer is if you want to try it why not.

I have been working with the 303 Brit. and 7.62x54, think I'll try 45 pistol boolits in my 45-70 just to see what happens.

beemer

[docone31]

I do not know about at the range look. It seems like there is a new type of shooter. They really stand out.
We have this crowd of folks who drive Hybrids. Everytime I put out a fresh target, they wail away with .223s. They don't talk much, wear interesting shooting gear. Vests, velcro everywhere, dark glasses, always a wooley hat. They blaze away with steel case ammo. Then they get up and go.
Then there are the good ole boys. I have never seen shooters like these! I am not sure if they know which direction the projectile goes. They are constantly getting asked to leave. Every once in a while someone yells Yeah-Hah!
Then we get these folks who shoot like monkeys. I never seen so many jams as when a semi are fired sideways. When they talk, they have a language that is hard to understand. If they disagree they always want to "pop a cap". If they cannot hit the target, they blame someone, and throw their firearm to the table.
My wife had her mint, Carl Gustav G63 in 7.62. One of those folks came up without asking and picked it up! He then threw it back down. He told me it was a piece of sh**, wouldn't go auto.
They wouldn't even understand a paper patch if they were shown one.
When we go to the range, we stay to ourselves. The range officers usually bring us down to a long range position and keep newbies away. I am there to dial in our firearms, which are all collectibles, not deal with 'bangers, or Neos.
I sure did enjoy watching one of them plant his Desert Eagle in .50 right in his forehead! That was worth it. One handed first timer! Yeah!!!
Paper patching to me is something very hard to explain. It is complete involvement. I get to meet people who are involved also.
I am the only one at the range who paper patches. A few know about it, no one has done it.
Some of the old timers help us with spotting though. None of the new crowd.
Most of the others buy a box of 20 and you never see them again. One smoke pole shows up. He has a bolt smoke pole.
40yrs ago, I knew people who built smoke poles from scratch! They considered it sacrilege to buy parts.
Long live paper patching!
Has that much time gone by?
If you guys keep letting me, I think I am going to hang here a while.

[bcp477]

For me, the reasons are as follows:

1) I can avoid the ridiculously high price of gas checks. As well, all of the gas-checked bullets available for purchase (already cast) are MUCH more expensive than the bullets I use.

2) I can avoid using any more jacketed bullets - which are priced (now) at ridiculous levels.

3) I don't cast my own bullets, nor can I....so PPing allows me to use cheap, available cast bullets - and paper-patching causes these bullets to work well in my particular rifle (they never did do the job before I tried paper patching).

4) I can get the velocity I need to make the PP loads truly useful (for short-range deer hunting, as well as target shooting), with only ONE load. This load is both VERY accurate for me, as well as having enough oomph for hunting.

5) On a lighter note, PPing has given me a unique sort of cachet among my fellow shooters (at my local range). It is not very common - and even a couple of long-time cast bullet shooters I know have now become interested.

Paper patching has made all of these things possible - they wouldn't be (and weren't for me) before I adopted it.

[hyoder]

The paper patch allows a pure lead boolit to be fired at neer JB velocities, and mushrooms beautifully with good penetration for hunting.

[405]

I can relate to all that.
No time machine so the best we have are history books, letters, historic sites and the relics.
If I want to get a taste of 1700s America I'll pull out the flinter. "Ah ha so that's what those folks were using for survival or independence".
If I want to get a taste of the 1820s in the West I'll pull out the big 54 caplock. "So that's what Jim Bridger carried and used".
If I want to get a taste of the Buffalo years/plains wars I'll pull out one of the Sharps. "I see what Billy Dixon was thinking".
If I want to see about Earp or Holliday I'll pull out the SAA and pop off a few rounds.
The 405 in the Win 95 gives a pretty good idea why TR liked that combination.
And so on.

Pretty amazing social interactions happen at the range. If there are many people there the guns that spark the most interest and conversations are the older models. The boxstore rugremsavchesters get hardly a notice. Put a Sharps or an original Win 95 or 76 or even a Trapdoor or nice '03 on the rack and see what happens. And yes, in addition to the guns getting attention, a row of PP 45-110s in the box sometimes gets only a stare like, "what are those? or gee man you've got three eyeballs in your head!" :)

Now if I want to get a taste of the latest Hollywood movie or video game I'll go to the range on a weekend afternoon and watch the 223 brass fly- and the bullets kick up dirt along with the random target rocks, pieces of bowling pins and listen to the hee hawing. (just love the smell of gunpowder, black nylon and camo.... not!)
Now if I want to get a taste of what some gunwriter thinks of the latest big game wow gun/cartridge I'll go to the range a month or so before deer season and watch the ported 30-378s blaze away. (just love losing 10 years worth of hearing.... not!)
:-?

[Bigjohn]

docone31; I likes ya' style. You can pull up a bench next to me anytime.

Of the evenings, there is not much interesting on the Idjot box anymore so WHY not roll a few.

John.

[docone31]

BigJohn, I bet we would have a ball.
It would take me some time to get used to the toilet flushing the wrong direction, and driving on the other side, but that aside, we might definately tear some paper.
I am a jeweler. I have looked at Coober Pedy for some time. I have seen houses bored into veins. Seeing the "fire" when the lights are just so, it is amazing! I cut stones, and facet gems. I work fairly heavily with opals.
You got some purty country there.
Looks like some good fishin' also.

[Bigjohn]

Yep, it certainly is an interesting country, could take you fishing on Lake EYRE but we would have to wait for the next BIG rain upstream. It's just a salt pan at the moment, good for racing cars and speed trials. But, when it floods, it really comes alive with fish and birds.

Spend most evening now calculating loads or rolling PP.

John.

[docone31]

It is so humid, hot, and full of mosquitos here. Paradise, phooey!
I just spent the day redigging my drywells. When we first started redoing this place, I was helping a person get on his feet. I do that once in a while.
I told him how to do it, showed him how to do it. He did it his way anyway. Well, they all backed up. To top it off, he planted 3ft pieces of rebar all through the drywells he made. A short job took all day, then both heater coils blew on the water heater. A brand new one! So, I had to drain the water heater, and house. Get the replacement heater coils, the ones it calls for this time, and redo that.
Some places down here had almost 2ft of rain after Tropical Storm Fay. The water ran off, and now Mosquitos!!!!!
However, we got one daggoned good range, with good range officers. Clean, well done, laid back unless something happens and then they deal with it immediately.
We were going to go to the range, but I do like warm showers. Next week. My #1MKIII has some new paper patched to try out. My castings were way too thin. I got 10-15ft groups! A little loose I believe.
I have always been a Mauser action guy, but, there is something about an Enfield. It really grows on you. I got my wife an Ishapore. She loves it. Gonna try some paper through that also. Got a customer in the shop who got one also. He hates it. Says it kicks.
Now, my wife, 5'6" Shoots 500rds through it and wants more. He shoots 40 through it and cannot move his arm the next week.
What is wrong with this picture?
I like those Enfield rifles. I would love to try a 25/303 Epps one day. I love the actions, even the trigger, once you get used to it is not too bad.
Casting and paper patching is not too bad a thing to do.

[randyrat]

The paper patch allows a pure lead boolit to be fired at neer JB velocities, and mushrooms beautifully with good penetration for hunting. BINGO and don't forget the fine accuracy that can be had. I read, i think in the 3rd Cast Bullet handbook. Accuracy was out over 1000 yds. These were records set by Whitworth rifles. I beleive they were black powder rifles in the 1800s....I seen a movie where they refered to Paper patching to mask the bullet match to the rifle in an assasination attempt gone wrong. I think the movie was called "Shooter". I'm not sure if i beleive that one. I just like the ability to shoot accurate, soft lead, at high velocities with no leading.

[StrawHat]

I patch because it keeps the lead away from the steel.

Higher velocities are not my goal but I won't turn them down.

I've also built cast bullets with hard bases and soft noses and vice versa but found paper to give me what I am looking for.

[BrentD]

Stawhat, most folks that build two part bullets do it the other way around. Soft bases (to expand into the bore) and hard noses (to avoid slumping). Every try it that way?

[missionary5155]

I have a 43 Spanish Rolling Block. The rifling is so low to the bore that Paper Patching is my best way to get a boolit down the bore with all its lead and descent accuracy. If I am remembering right some old barrels were made for paper patching.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

the ammunition companies loaded paper patch bullets for long range and target work back in the 1870-1890's. Anyone shooting a "Buffalo Gun" back then was 90% likely to be shooting PP. Shooting grease groove bullets is the lazy man's out, sort-of like shooting smokeless powder.

JMHO, your mileage may vary


Rich

[leftiye]

So paper patching works well with shallow rifling?

[missionary5155]

So paper patching works well with shallow rifling?

It does in my .43 Spanish.. better than plain base undersized 30-1 lead. It will not win a 1000yd. match but 4 inches at 100 yrds is better than 5 inches at 50 yds and no hope at 100 yds. 70 grains FF compressed as the round is seated.

[longbow]

I have had some good accuracy with paper patching in my Marlin .44 mag with microgroove barrel and I don't think rifling gets much shallower!

Longbow

[leftiye]

Yeah, My application is a Handi Rifle with .452 bore, and .4575 groove diameters. About like micro groove, and probly cut thataways by Marlin anyways. Glad to see that it might work. I guess I'll have to "try it - you'll (I'll) like it", maybe. Thanks for your help!

[StrawHat]

Stawhat, most folks that build two part bullets do it the other way around. Soft bases (to expand into the bore) and hard noses (to avoid slumping). Every try it that way?


Yep, done them both ways, like you mentioned to fit a ratty old Colt clone but the other way to have a good base and soft nose.

Just one of the many ways I misspent my youth!

I have finally settled on using binary alloys and find it works well for me when I don't need to patch (ie revolvers).

[joeb33050]

Here's where I am. Anything I missed? May I use your comments?
Thanks;
joe b.
WHY PAPER PATCH BULLETS?

Sometimes, to make bullets from a given mold you have fit a gun. Ex: Maybe a .314" diameter bullet patched to 8mm. I understand that.
The CBA accuracy guys are not paper patching, so it ain't about accuracy at their velocities.
The BP guys seem to be shooting plain grooved bullets, if I understand the threads/sites.
In Harrison's book it was about high velocity with smokeless. Is that the reason, for smokeless?
Why paper patch with black powder? What am I missing?
Thanks;
joe b.

Here are the responses from the "Cast Boolits" forum:

Ducone 31
With me, it is for high velocity and accuracy. I have an Enfield, #1 MKIII .303, 03-A3 Carbine, and G63 Gustav 7.62
Paper patching for me is a way to close the gap. I like casting my own, wrapping it, and trying to get it on paper. I like the way paper looks on a casting. I like the idea of paper polishing the bore. I do not like the cost of jacketed bullets.
Essentially, paper patching keeps me occupied on my days off. A long time ago, I knew an old man, and he paper patched. He didn't speak much and he liked me. I was just a kid and knew everything about nothing. He liked me anyway. He had this old Sharps his father gave him. It had been converted to cartridge. Some did that back then. He showed me the primer corrosion on the barrel where the nipple used to be. They replaced the breech block back then.
He was an old man, and missed his dad. I liked the way those long paper patched cartridges looked. I never forgot that. Most everything else, but not that.
Now, I am trying to figure out how to make it work for me.
So far, so good.
He couldn't walk much anymore when I knew him. He showed me his old photos and told me about them. He showed me his father's Colt conversion. Back then they did not have the money for a Colt New Army. They converted the 1851s. He had one. Back then, no one cared about them. Couldn't get ammo. They were rimfire!
That is why I paper patch.
Kills the time also.

beemer
I have been asked the same thing about lead and casting. Most guys I know only shoot and load enough to support their hunting and cast is to much trouble. As far as paper patch goes I guess everyone has their own reasons. Some want to use the moulds they have, some want to use softer lead for hunting, maybe push the vel. or get buy without the gas check. I tried it for the same reason that I tried casting in the first place. It is something else to tinker with and try different things just to see what happens. It is slow but I don't shoot mass quantities so sitting down at the kitchen table and rolling up about 20 or 30 is not a big deal, not like I am missing anything on the tube anyway. I guess the real answer is if you want to try it why not.

I have been working with the 303 Brit. and 7.62x54, think I'll try 45 pistol boolits in my 45-70 just to see what happens.


BPC477
For me, the reasons are as follows:

1) I can avoid the ridiculously high price of gas checks. As well, all of the gas-checked bullets available for purchase (already cast) are MUCH more expensive than the bullets I use.

2) I can avoid using any more jacketed bullets - which are priced (now) at ridiculous levels.

3) I don't cast my own bullets, nor can I....so Paper Patching allows me to use cheap, available cast bullets - and paper-patching causes these bullets to work well in my particular rifle (they never did do the job before I tried paper patching).

4) I can get the velocity I need to make the Paper Patched loads truly useful (for short-range deer hunting, as well as target shooting), with only ONE load. This load is both VERY accurate for me, as well as having enough oomph for hunting.

5) On a lighter note, Paper Patching has given me a unique sort of cachet among my fellow shooters (at my local range). It is not very common - and even a couple of long-time cast bullet shooters I know have now become interested.

Paper patching has made all of these things possible - they wouldn't be (and weren't for me) before I adopted it.

Hyoder
The paper patch allows a pure lead boolit to be fired at near JB velocities, and mushrooms beautifully with good penetration for hunting.

Straw Hat
I patch because it keeps the lead away from the steel.
Higher velocities are not my goal but I won't turn them down.
I've also built cast bullets with hard bases and soft noses and vice versa but found paper to give me what I am looking for.

Missionary5155
I have a 43 Spanish Rolling Block. The rifling is so low to the bore that Paper Patching is my best way to get a boolit down the bore with all its lead and descent accuracy. If I am remembering right some old barrels were made for paper patching.