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krallstar
01-15-2018, 09:06 AM
New to this muzzleloading thing. Getting in some range time and trying different stuff. First out used triple 7 209 primers for muzzleloaders. Ignition is normal and fouling was too. Cleanup was somewhat hard. Crud ring and all. Tried all kinds of cleaning stuff and a bit of elbow grease. Then remembered back when shooting WWII nagant ammo was told some windex would clean well. So tried that and that crud ring was so much easier to clean up. So that ring i don't like so after so info tried some BH 209. That powder cleaned up real easy. But the problem i had was with the triple 7 primers. I would pull the trigger and hear primer go off, but ignition was slow and then it would ignite the powder. I assume i need a different primer to properly ignite this powder. Another question i have is i got this tube to measure the loose powder. It says by volume. When we load these muzzleloaders are we loading for volume or weight. I used a scale and and crossed referenced these numbers. On the tube 80+ 60.0 in weight 90=67 100=75.5 110=85 and 120= 91.5 Didn't use over 80 because of the delayed ignition. And only shot a few rounds.

carbine
01-15-2018, 09:34 AM
Black Powder and it's substitutes are measured in VOLUME. That said Black powder weighs out about the same as volume. I have never used any of the subs so I cant comment. Sounds like you are shooting an inline. I don't know about them, either. Good Luck

krallstar
01-15-2018, 10:04 AM
Yes inline. We are using 3 triple 7 pellets At 30gr by volume . I just weighed the pellet and got 17.5 gr. So times 3 + 52.5 Yesterday with the BH 209 powder we loaded at 80 on the tube comes out to about 60.0gr weighed So thinking this BH209 at 80 is around 100.gr if using pellets.

NSB
01-15-2018, 10:31 AM
Always use volume for black powder subs. As far as primers go, quit using the Triple 7 (or any other black powder sub primers on the market) and just get some regular 209 primers. The sub primers just don't have enough spark to set off anything very well except real black. Even the real black powder shoots usually quit using the black powder primers after a bit of experimenting with both. I don't think many use them any more. Don't get too hung up on the weight deal. There's a really good reason why they use volume over actual weight.....most people don't walk around with a scale in their pocket or shooting bag. The black powder subs like BH209 aren't all that particular about a couple of tenths of a grain as far as accuracy goes. One more thing about pellets. They have a tendency to crack if pushed down too hard and that effects ignition which in turn effects accuracy. Also, you can't fine tune the gun like you can with loose powder. I've tried all (and I mean all) of the black powder subs and settled on BH209 a few years back. All in all, it is a great powder. It's accurate, clean (I can shoot a lot without swabbing even once), and easy to find. Some complain about the price but that's kind of a weak argument unless you're shooting several hundred shots a year. Even then it's not a deal breaker. If you're like 98% of the shooter/hunters you won't go through one bottle a year if you're using it to sight in and hunt with. In my mind it's worth it just for the clean up factor alone and/or the amount of shots between swabbing. Good luck in your learning curve. If you've got any specific questions about BH209 and in-lines, drop me a PM. I've been doing this for over forty years now and know a bit about it.

Squeeze
01-15-2018, 12:21 PM
Muzzleloader primers are made to be cooler specifically to counter the se7en crud ring. with BH 209 powder, you want the hottest shotgun primer (federal, or CCI magnum) Black is pretty close weight to volume. Blackhorn is about .07 volume to weight, so 100v = 70 weight. Those tubes are meant for field carry, and not for charge measuring. I dont know why they put the calibrations on the tube, it only causes confusion, as they vary tremendously. You need a decent volume measure. ALL Blackpowder and subs are meant to be measured volume, and are calibrated from lot to lot to be measured that way. There are some long range competitive shooters who will measure by weight, but they buy powder in bulk, and have to recalibrate for every new lot. Proper ignition with Blackhorn requires a tight fitting well seated bullet, and a certain type of breechplug. And not all guns should use it. Its only safe and reliable in certain closed system guns with a compatible breech plug

krallstar
01-15-2018, 01:24 PM
Great info. Thanks

mooman76
01-15-2018, 01:31 PM
777 is well known for it's crud ring and BH209 is harder to ignite and also very expensive. Real BP works the best but can be hard to find so sometimes you have to order it to get it and that's only practical if you order 5# or more. You might try Black MZ. I bought some just because it was so cheap, like $10 and also heard it is pretty clean burning and works well. I used Pyrodex for allot of years because that's all they used to have, real BP or Pyrodex. I didn't have any issues with it unlike some people. People also say it is more corrosive but your gun needs to be cleaned either way so I don't see it as an issue. Just do a proper cleaning and you are fine.

GoexBlackhorn
01-16-2018, 07:40 PM
Another vote for hotter primers like Federal 209A, CCI-Mag and Winchester 209. Another vote for Black MZ loose powder.

FrontierMuzzleloading
01-17-2018, 12:25 AM
What muzzleloader are you shooting? Bh209 will put black mz to shame in every shape and former you can think of. Cci 209m, winchester w209, federal 209a primers are the best performers.

Squeeze
01-17-2018, 07:52 AM
delete

krallstar
01-17-2018, 08:09 AM
Shooting a Traditions Vortek Ultralight .50 And a CVA Optima .50 The cva has different breech plugs for loose powder, the Ultralight does not. Planning to pick up some cci 209m and some standard cci 209. Read that the 209m is good for cold weather and the standard for the warmer months. Have been using Powerbelts. Easy to use. Getting about 3 or 4 inch out at 100. Tried those Thompson sighter sabots in lead and they seemed better than the Powerbelts. Thinking i might get a mold for Full bore casting.

LUCKYDAWG13
01-17-2018, 08:28 AM
I have had good luck with Pyrodex pellets the 50/50 I use 150gr 3 of them in my T/C omega also use T/C 250gr shockwave
primers win trip 7 212029 thats 3 shots in there at 100 yards the rest i was using was a sock with sand
in it on top of some 2x4

NSB
01-17-2018, 12:53 PM
What muzzleloader are you shooting? Bh209 will put black mz to shame in every shape and former you can think of. Cci 209m, winchester w209, federal 209a primers are the best performers.

Couldn't agree more. Here's four shots at a measured 114 yards with my Encore. First shot just to the right of the bull. Adjusted and raised POI and three more shots above the bull. This is typical of BH209, Barnes bullets, and WW 209 primer. CCI primer will do the same thing. With all the time and money I put into hunting every year I don't try to save a couple of bucks on powder. BH209 isn't that expensive.
212043

FrontierMuzzleloading
01-17-2018, 04:52 PM
OK for the traditions, order a bag of these. Place one of the o rings into the primer pocket. The action will be a little harder to close for the first few shots. It will make a 100% seal on the primer, no messy blow by. https://www.mcmaster.com/#9262k611/=rgsfbp

Next for that traditions, get a 1/8" drill bit and Decarbon the breech plugs flash channel. Install the drill bit and with your fingers, spin it and cut the hard carbon out. This is crucial for proper breech plug cleaning.

Winchester w209, federal 209a or Cci magnum primers work best for bhh209. Winchester t7 primers are not reliable as they are a cooler firing primer.

Those o rings however your traditions will love.

GoexBlackhorn
01-17-2018, 07:44 PM
What muzzleloader are you shooting? Bh209 will put black mz to shame in every shape and former you can think of. Cci 209m, winchester w209, federal 209a primers are the best performers.


My Black or Blue MZ (pellets) doesn't hang-fire like Blackhorn does for me (T/C / Knight). The most best bullet speeds matters-not to me. I only shoot up-to 100 grains max anyways. Many times you will only find me burning 80-90 grains volume.

Black MZ needs less patches to clean the bore than Blackhorn.... has instantaneous ignition and no drill bits needed to keep the breechplug unclogged.

Did I mention Black MZ loose costs 1/2 of what Blackhorn sells for? Did I mention that the most accurate loads using Blackhorn are with magnum powder charges? Go read all the boards and see how much volume and weight-charges all the regular everyday messageboard members are using. Recoil City is what they are experiencing and that's not me. I don't go there. My max shooting lanes are only 150 yards. I don;t need any stinkin; magnum powder loads.

I will never go back to Blackhorn. Heck, I gave 2/3rds of a remaining Blackhorn jug away for free. So spread all that shame you carry around in your own personal powder jugs somewhere else bud.....lol:-o

Why are you here discussing this anyways. You claim to only shoot sidelocks these days. Is your website so slow, that you need to roam around other boards?.

That is the real shame right there bud! So you were half-right when bringing the word shame to this thread.

FrontierMuzzleloading
01-17-2018, 07:55 PM
Depends on the cleaner. With black mz, I use more patches due to the water clean up. Doesn't matter anyway, clean your guns right or else.

Black mz certainly can hang fire,especially in no 11 rifles or fail to fire due to how bulky the powder is.

All 209 ignition guns need the drill bit cleaning. You can pop 209 primers and find the carbon build up.

NO COMPARISON to bh209 plain and simple. You'd be better off with real goex if you can get it.

There is a reason why black mz normally sells for $10.

I shot some of it years ago and while it was indeed accurate, the velocity overy the chronograph, crud ring still there buold up,there is just no comparing it to bh209.

FrontierMuzzleloading
01-17-2018, 07:57 PM
Also, most accurate loads with bh209 being magnum is far off base. For me with conicals, 80 to 100 grains was average for my best accuracy. Others want the most velocity they can get from their rifles, one reason you see such charges today.

tomme boy
01-17-2018, 09:09 PM
BH209 is supposed to be used with Federal 209a primers according to them when it first came out. Now they recommend any 209 primers except ones made for Black powder.

And weigh the powder. Quote "Yes. If you prefer to weigh charges, you can convert the volume load recommendations into weighed grains by multiplying the volume load by 0.7. Example: 100 units by volume x 0.7 = 70 grains by weight. 110 volume charge x 0.7 = 77 grains by weight."

It is very hard to ignite. The reason to not use the Black powder primers as they are weaker.

krallstar
01-17-2018, 10:04 PM
Just used the drill bit and wow. It looked clean enough before but now wow. Will be ordering those O ring next.

OK for the traditions, order a bag of these. Place one of the o rings into the primer pocket. The action will be a little harder to close for the first few shots. It will make a 100% seal on the primer, no messy blow by. https://www.mcmaster.com/#9262k611/=rgsfbp

Next for that traditions, get a 1/8" drill bit and Decarbon the breech plugs flash channel. Install the drill bit and with your fingers, spin it and cut the hard carbon out. This is crucial for proper breech plug cleaning.

Winchester w209, federal 209a or Cci magnum primers work best for bhh209. Winchester t7 primers are not reliable as they are a cooler firing primer.

Those o rings however your traditions will love.

FrontierMuzzleloading
01-17-2018, 10:31 PM
That was 90% of your problem buddy!

NSB
01-18-2018, 04:24 AM
Nothing, I repeat NOTHING cleans up as easy as BH209. Anyone who says it's hard to clean up has never used it. A wet patch of Hoppe's #9 and one or two dry patches will get the bore clean. You can shoot twenty or thirty shots without swabbing the bore at all (you do need to look at your breech plug after about nine or ten shots to see if it's even starting to plug up. If it's even starting, clean it. That advice is true with any powder). It's hard to believe how many guys cry about the cost of BH209 when most of them don't even use one bottle of it a year. Even if you shoot more than one bottle, what did you invest in other costs to go hunting that year. Trying to save a couple of bucks by using a less effective/better powder is simply not worth it. If you're thinking about trying it, get some. After you use it you can make up your own mind. I've been doing this for around forty-seven years now and I've not found a better black powder sub and I've tried them all. If you look at the group I posted above, it's not a "magnum" load. It's 100g of BH209 with a Barnes bullet. Shoots great and it's easy on the shooters end.

krallstar
01-18-2018, 10:05 AM
We usually use 3 triple7 pellets @30 so 100 of the BH209 is close enough. Recoil does not seem big. Going back to try with these cleaned breech plugs and see what happens.