Double rifles.. Whaddya got?

[JSnover]

I got an itch that I may be able to scratch next year if I can get to Africa. Does anyone have experience/ recommendations regarding double rifles and/or African hunting? .375 or .416 should do it, but I've shot .50 BMG so I won't rule out a .458 or .460.

[fcvan]

I do not have a double rifle but think a 35 Whelan would make a nice double. I saw a video of a boar hunt in Europe, and two gentlement from England were hunting with doubles. One was chambered in 30-06, I forget the other. Sure there are so many great rifle calibers for a double. I have just always had a curiosity about loading and shooting the 35 Whelan

[JSnover]

Anywhere else I'm sure I'd be happy with a .35 Whelan and it probably would make for a pretty nice package but some areas in Africa (last I heard) .375 was the legal minimum.

[skeettx]

How much money are you wanting to spend?

https://www.krieghoff.com/hunting-guns/krieghoff-classic-double-rifle/krieghoff-big-five-double-rifle/

https://www.gunbroker.com/Other-Rifles/search?Keywords=double+rifle&Sort=13&PageSize=24

My personal double is a 30-06 and that is plenty for this old man :)

Mike

[fcvan]

I don't think I will ever hunt Africa, but there are some pretty big critters in North America. Africa sounds fun, I will spend my money in America first, particularly in areas where hunting really helps the local economy. Kill a wolf in Idaho, and someone will likely buy you a beer. I have a buddy that hunted Elk in Idaho for decades. Of late, he has said the Elk and Deer have been reduced %85 since the wolf was reintroduced. He bagged a wolf and went into a little town near their base camp. Town of 1400 or so, said everyone in town came to thank him. Game warden said if you want the hide, go ahead and tag. If not, shoot the wolf, leave it, and don't worry about a tag. The wolf is killing their economy.

[JSnover]

The Krieghoff is not likely to appear in my safe but GoneBroker has a handful that are more realistic.

[StolzerandSons]

I own several double rifles both muzzleloading and cartridge guns but for a one gun for Africa caliber it would definitely be the 450/400-3". Big enough to use for DG with the right bullet but also very usable for plains, recoil is very manageable.

[JSnover]

Thanks.

[Reverend Al]

Well, another one of my "project guns" that is on the back burner is a Thomas Clayton percussion SxS double rifle built on the Jacobs pattern in about .52 calibre. The patchbox is engraved in old Latin and roughly translates to "Presented to Lt. E. Rogers by the grateful men of his African Legion 1858". Lt. Eberneezer Rogers was active in Africa and was mentioned in dispatches at least twice. He eventually returned to Britain and retired as a military recruiter in Ireland. He published several military journals and was a huge proponent of the Gatling gun for the defence of military fortifications. (So much in fact that his two houses were named "Gatling House" and "Gatling Lodge".)

It shows signs of honest use, but good care and maintenance considering it's use in tropical Africa and the bores are good. If only it could talk ...

I need to do a couple of cerrosafe castings of both muzzles to get the correct dimensions so that Red River Rick can make me a mould for it. It is based on the Jacobs pattern and uses a cast bullet of about .52 calibre with integral bands to fit the grooves of the rifling.

https://i.imgur.com/HKpWsyP.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/BDAOGsz.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/x6Eq8uf.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/t1111D7.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Y7qpLHV.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/NdKBDiT.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/lnn0f17.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Tjj2ETZ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ysrsAfm.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/wwuLXEe.jpg

[Reverend Al]

As a side note you can see that both of the sliding safeties are missing which makes me think that they might have been deliberately removed to ensure that they weren't "knocked on" in error preventing the use of the second barrel when hunting dangerous game. Just my guess, but it makes sense to me ...

[JSnover]

That is amazing. I don't know if I'd want double triggers but it seems they were pretty common back then.

[texasnative46]

JSnover,

IF you're interested in an "old school" double-rifle, I may know of a gentleman here in San Antonio who has (or at least had recently) for sale a hammer SxS DR in a great hard-case in .43 Spanish Mauser. - His price at the last gunshow here was 1,000.oo cash.

Shall I see if it's still for sale??

NOTE: My particular "addiction" is Drillings & Cape-Guns but I was still tempted to buy it.
(I'm saving my nickles & dimes to buy an 1890s Cape Gun in 16-gauge by 11.15x60 Rimmed, that a fellow in Bandera has, that is more ornate than I can adequately describe in words.)

yours, tex

[JSnover]

JSnover,

IF you're interested in an "old school" double-rifle, I may know of a gentleman here in San Antonio who has (or at least had recently) for sale a hammer SxS DR in a great hard-case in .43 Spanish Mauser. - His price at the last gunshow here was 1,000.oo cash.

Shall I see if it's still for sale??

NOTE: My particular "addiction" is Drillings & Cape-Guns but I was still tempted to buy it.
(I'm saving my nickles & dimes to buy an 1890s Cape Gun in 16-gauge by 11.15x60 Rimmed, that a fellow in Bandera has, that is more ornate than I can adequately describe in words.)

yours, tex

I would be interested, thank you Tex!

[Reverend Al]

That is amazing. I don't know if I'd want double triggers but it seems they were pretty common back then.

Double triggers were the norm back then, especially when you were working with two separate sidelocks, one for each barrel. The accepted shooting method for a fast follow up shot on dangerous game was not to move your trigger finger back to the second trigger by itself, but to slide your entire hand back on the grip to bring your trigger finger to the back trigger for the live barrel, and then squeeze the back trigger. Once you get accustomed to the English method of using double triggers it is VERY fast ...

[M-Tecs]

Double triggers were considered to be more reliable.

On hard recoiling rifles some prefer to use the rear trigger first to prevent doubling.

Good discussion here. https://www.africahunting.com/threads/double-rifle-triggers.23060/

[rockrat]

As said, the 375 cal. is min., I believe, for Africa. the 450/400 would be a good cartridge, or possibly the 450 NE (which is what I was looking for at one time).

[texasnative46]

JSnover,

Presuming that he comes to the 03-04FEB18 gun-show, I'll ask him if it's still available.

yours, tex

[NoAngel]

Szecsei & Fuchs is probably the coolest double rifle ever made.

Met a rather wealthy man at Knob Creek many years ago that had one in some Gibbs cartridge, I forget which.
Not sure if he was a really cool guy or insane but he let me hold it. Hard the fathom I was holding something worth more than the house and property I was living in at the time. Lol!

[Bigslug]

To do this PROPERLY. . .you'd definitely want two triggers. Part of the appeal is that you essentially have two completely funntioning firearms should one half of the gun fail.

You'd also want to do it in a rimmed cartridge, rather than a rimless magazine rifle cartridge pressed into the task. Makes for a less complex ejector system. Depending on what you're planning to hunt, and how much kick you're willing to absorb, there's a lot of options - just don't count on finding the dies for most of them on the shelf at Bass Pro.

Which brings us to the next point - these things are regulated to shoot one or two specific loads with both barrels to the same point of aim. You aren't necessarily going to be able to "dial it down" for comfort and cope with a simple readjustment of sights. Soooo. . .if you plan to play a lot with cast loads for economy, expect to be playing with something that rocks your world to about the same degree as your "fightin' ammo". Might want to factor that into your cartridge selection.

I've dabbled with the inexpensive Baikal .45-70 with the jack screw between the barrels for adjustment, and it's possible - if a bit mind bending - to use that and load technique to get things dialed in pretty nicely, but I think the more costly, build-the-gun-for-a-specific-load approach would hurt the cerebrum less in the long run.

Not sure I clearly grasp Reverend Al's technique, but my inclination would be to start with the back trigger then move to the front - simply as a measure of avoiding an unintended, rapid second discharge when dealing with hard kicking rounds under the stress of thumping a large, angry critter.

Last thing to consider - other than the cool factor - is a double REALLY what you want for hunting stuff that can kill you back? Having been programmed to run a bolt action since basically birth, there is NO WAY IN HELL I would consider taking a double into harm's way. If, on the other hand, the primary occupation of your youth was busting upland birds with the ancestral twin-trigger side-by-side, a double rifle may be just the thing for you.

[JSnover]

JSnover,

Presuming that he comes to the 03-04FEB18 gun-show, I'll ask him if it's still available.

yours, tex
Thanks Tex. If I get hooked up before then I'll let you know.

[JSnover]

Last thing to consider - other than the cool factor - is a double REALLY what you want for hunting stuff that can kill you back? Having been programmed to run a bolt action since basically birth, there is NO WAY IN HELL I would consider taking a double into harm's way. If, on the other hand, the primary occupation of your youth was busting upland birds with the ancestral twin-trigger side-by-side, a double rifle may be just the thing for you.

I don't disagree and I love bolt-action rifles but there has to be a reason the African hunters favor doubles. Maybe too many close calls on close-up wounded animals. A simple pull of the second trigger would be the fastest way to make the followup shot.
The majority of them don't seem to care much for bolt guns against dangerous game but had no problem using them for lesser animals.

[map55b]

How about a 45-70 built on a hammered 10g. A work in progress. Still need to finish regulating the barrels. I can not take credit for the build, that goes to my mentor. However, it will be my project to finish.

212093

212094

[JSnover]

How about a 45-70 built on a hammered 10g. A work in progress. Still need to finish regulating the barrels. I can not take credit for the build, that goes to my mentor. However, it will be my project to finish.

That would do it! Please post pics when it's finished.

[Bigslug]

I don't disagree and I love bolt-action rifles but there has to be a reason the African hunters favor doubles. Maybe too many close calls on close-up wounded animals. A simple pull of the second trigger would be the fastest way to make the followup shot.
The majority of them don't seem to care much for bolt guns against dangerous game but had no problem using them for lesser animals.

That's the argument that ain't gonna end soon.

Historically, more than a few of your classic era African hunters were "landed gentry", IOW rich folk, who cut their teeth with fowling pieces on estate hunts. The quick reach to a second trigger, and the rapid breaking open to load two more was what they were programmed to do. It's a legit methodology, make no mistake. How well that methodology translates to the American hunter raised on bolts, levers, and pumps with only one trigger is going to depend on the individual.

My argument for the bolt gun - a .470 Nitro Express (or other serious dangerous game round) is not a one ounce dove load. It's going to rock you back a bit. A practiced hand with a magazine rifle will be working the action while bringing the gun back down out of that recoil, and therefore won't necessarily be significantly slower getting back on target. He'll also have a much less mechanically complex, possibly military-grade (designed for hunting MEN) launch platform with a lot less off-center-axis ballistic voodoo going on. There will be more than two chances on tap to settle the hash of whatever he's about to piss off, AND he won't have to give up the 7-Series BMW to buy it.

If he thinks long about the whole thing, he'll stick with one of those old, not-terribly-fashionable-these-days tapered-body cartridges like a .375 H&H or .404 Jeffrey that feeds like greased eel boogers and runs at a low pressure so as not to hang up on a hot day.

If he thinks even longer he might be looking at P14/M1917 Enfields that cock on close, separating the operations of primary extraction and compressing the striker spring, saving the latter until he's built up a good bit of forward momentum.

(Pondered these things a bit, I have)

But my biggest fear with a double. . . it would be REALLY embarrassing to have your gun bearer get mixed up on an elephant stalk and pass you your SxS 20 gauge guinea fowl gun full of #6's by mistake.:bigsmyl2:

[murf205]

212231 Here is my hunting partners Merkel 470 Nitro Express. It will do the trick on buff or elephant if you can shoot it well enough. 400 gr cast boolits make great practice loads and shoot to regulation at around 1800 fps. A lot cheaper than practicing with Hornady Dangerous Game solids! Get ready to buy a LARGE press and brass is not cheap either. But hey, it is a 470 after all and they don't sell ammo or components at Wally World for sure!
Now after all that is said, if I was going to Africa tomorrow, I would buy a Ruger 77 Mk II in 375 Ruger and put a long tube 3x Leupold on it and call it good to go. You can darned near buy 11 Rugers for what the Merkel cost. Spend the 9k$ savings on trophy fees and airline tickets.

[15meter]

212231 Here is my hunting partners Merkel 470 Nitro Express. It will do the trick on buff or elephant if you can shoot it well enough. 400 gr cast boolits make great practice loads and shoot to regulation at around 1800 fps. A lot cheaper than practicing with Hornady Dangerous Game solids! Get ready to buy a LARGE press and brass is not cheap either. But hey, it is a 470 after all and they don't sell ammo or components at Wally World for sure!
Now after all that is said, if I was going to Africa tomorrow, I would buy a Ruger 77 Mk II in 375 Ruger and put a long tube 3x Leupold on it and call it good to go. You can darned near buy 11 Rugers for what the Merkel cost. Spend the 9k$ savings on trophy fees and airline tickets.

What is your cast boolit load, I've got the Noe 375 grain mold and always looking for load data that has worked for other people.

[skeettx]

375 H&H

All I can tell you is what I shoot listed in an OLD Lyman reloading manual.

Case full of old 4831 (60 grains), in reality I tend to use the largest Lee dipper for these loads
375449 with Hornady gas check, lube is Javelina, seated out to touch rifling.

Mike

[JSnover]

Well I suppose the shotgun could be left in the truck or back at camp, that would solve that problem.
I actually didn't come here to settle the bolt vs. double argument. I made my choice (after pondering for quite a while and considering numerous factors) and asked for opinions from people who have used doubles and/or hunted in Africa.
Lesser men with less experience than I than I have done both and have lived to tell about it.

Gorgeous rifle, murf205!
My press has a large enough throat to handle either of those cartridges but I'm mulling over some 'reasonably priced' rifles for the time being.

[charlie b]

FWIW, if I had the funds and desire I'd do the same. Nothing says African Safari to me like a Nitro double. Westley Richards, Holland & Holland, etc.

[JSnover]

At the moment I'm considering a Valmet 412 in 9.3x74R though I might upgrade the barrels. Doesn't have the mystique of the "classic" rifles but it's sufficient and affordable.

[Bigslug]

Gunbroker's presently got a Sabatti in .375 Flanged Magnum. Pretty reasonable, as these things are measured. https://www.gunbroker.com/item/733541033

It would be worth a study of caliber restrictions in the various African nations for what you intend to do. The 9.3's probably have enough adherents you should be OK, but then, one hears ".375 minimum" a lot. . .

[rockrat]

Google Sabatti and check them out first. There were issues with some of them

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Well, another one of my "project guns" that is on the back burner is a Thomas Clayton percussion SxS double rifle built on the Jacobs pattern in about .52 calibre. The patchbox is engraved in old Latin and roughly translates to "Presented to Lt. E. Rogers by the grateful men of his African Legion 1858". Lt. Eberneezer Rogers was active in Africa and was mentioned in dispatches at least twice. He eventually returned to Britain and retired as a military recruiter in Ireland. He published several military journals and was a huge proponent of the Gatling gun for the defence of military fortifications. (So much in fact that his two houses were named "Gatling House" and "Gatling Lodge".)

It shows signs of honest use, but good care and maintenance considering it's use in tropical Africa and the bores are good. If only it could talk ...

I need to do a couple of cerrosafe castings of both muzzles to get the correct dimensions so that Red River Rick can make me a mould for it. It is based on the Jacobs pattern and uses a cast bullet of about .52 calibre with integral bands to fit the grooves of the rifling.



Got him! It is plain ungenerous to be picky about spellin unless there is some functional reason for it, but in this case "Ebenezer" would find him in searches:

http://www.victorianresearch.org/atcl/show_author.php?aid=686

His brush with transvestism sounds interesting, and his novel is still available on www.bookfinder.com .

My only double rifle is a muzzle-loader by Kehlner Neveu (i.e. nephew of the better-known Kehlner) of Prague. I hink it was made there, but with Belgian damascus tubes, just like almost all American Damascus shotguns. It came to me as a 14ga shotgun - or ore likely ball gun, due to its rather good sights and round patch-box, a useful weapon in central European forests. It has a gold "R" monogram with the seven-pearled coronet of a baron. But as all the children of an Austrian or German baron were barons, rather than just the first-born son, the country was filling up with them, and way over a twenty-sixth of them would have begun with "R".

The screw-on knob for the ramrod made me suspect an ex-rifle, but the clincher was when I found a single set trigger in the right barrel alone (two being a potential embarrassment), which had probably lurked unsuspected for over a century. So I lined it with .510-groove liners made for the .50 Government. I've shot it only experimentally, but it seems pretty well regulated. I made a bullet starter block, with two holes just the right distance apart, and in one a pin to fit in one bore while pressing the bullet into the other with a plunger. It can swivel around the pin, and in theory it shouldn't be as good as one that gives perfect alignment, as in the scheutzen muzzle-loaders. But it works pretty well with the .50 Government bullet.

212692

Gravitating stops were notorious for jamming, and the main reason to remove them was that the gun could be less safe than you think, while you were pointing it at your eyebrow to reload. But staying engaged with dangerous game is another. It wouldn't be too hard for the amateur, who traditionally doesn't cost up his time, to make replacements. I don't see anything to suggest that your gun has had its hammers replaced, but most of that job would be within the capabilities of any small gunsmith, but maching for the gravitating stop mightn't be. So that might cause removal too.

Not many people shoot elephant nowadays, and for probably the majority visiting Africa, the power of the .35 Whelen would do nicely - subject to legal restrictions permitting. I don't know about it being the best, though. Often the country is open, and flatter shooting might be an advantage. But if Cape buffalo is on the list, the requirement, probably even more than for elephant, is probably for the most flattening rifle from which you can count on a very quick second aimed shot.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Well, another one of my "project guns" that is on the back burner is a Thomas Clayton percussion SxS double rifle built on the Jacobs pattern in about .52 calibre. The patchbox is engraved in old Latin and roughly translates to "Presented to Lt. E. Rogers by the grateful men of his African Legion 1858". Lt. Eberneezer Rogers was active in Africa and was mentioned in dispatches at least twice. He eventually returned to Britain and retired as a military recruiter in Ireland. He published several military journals and was a huge proponent of the Gatling gun for the defence of military fortifications. (So much in fact that his two houses were named "Gatling House" and "Gatling Lodge".)

It shows signs of honest use, but good care and maintenance considering it's use in tropical Africa and the bores are good. If only it could talk ...

I need to do a couple of cerrosafe castings of both muzzles to get the correct dimensions so that Red River Rick can make me a mould for it. It is based on the Jacobs pattern and uses a cast bullet of about .52 calibre with integral bands to fit the grooves of the rifling.



Got him! It is plain ungenerous to be picky about spelling, unless there is some functional reason for it, but in this case "Ebenezer" would find him in searches:

http://www.victorianresearch.org/atcl/show_author.php?aid=686

His brush with transvestism sounds interesting, and his "Campaigning in Western Africa and the Ashantee invasion" and his one novel are still available on my life support system, www.bookfinder.com . One entry there identifies him with Ebenezer Platt Rogers, an American pastor, but that is incorrect.

My only double rifle is a muzzle-loader by Kehlner Neveu (i.e. nephew of the better-known Kehlner) of Prague. I hink it was made there, but with Belgian damascus tubes, just like almost all American Damascus shotguns. It came to me as a 14ga shotgun - or ore likely ball gun, due to its rather good sights and round patch-box, a useful weapon in central European forests. It has a gold "R" monogram with the seven-pearled coronet of a baron. But as all the children of an Austrian or German baron were barons, rather than just the first-born son, the country was filling up with them, and way over a twenty-sixth of them would have begun with "R".

Then I found a single set trigger in the right barrel alone (two being a potential embarrassment), so I lined it with .510 groove liners made for the .50 Government. I've shot it only experimentally, but it seems pretty well regulated. I made a bullet starter block, with two holes just the right distance apart, and in one a pin to fit in one bore while pressing the bullet into the other with a plunger. It can swivel around the pin, and in theory it shouldn't be as good as one that gives perfect alignment, as in the scheutzen muzzle-loaders. But it works pretty well with the .50 Government bullet.

212692

Not many people shoot elephant nowadays, and for probably the majority visiting Africa, the power of the .35 Whelen would do nicely - subject to legal restrictions permitting. I don't know about it being the best, though. Often the country is open, and flatter shooting might be an advantage.

[JSnover]

Thanks!
As I understand it the 9.3 is only legal in two countries for dangerous game, .375 being the minimum bore elsewhere.
So I got a reasonable deal on the Valmet with plenty of room in my budget for another set of barrels or to get it 'smithed up to .375JDJ or H&H.

[Reverend Al]

Got him! It is plain ungenerous to be picky about spelling, unless there is some functional reason for it, but in this case "Ebenezer" would find him in searches:

http://www.victorianresearch.org/atcl/show_author.php?aid=686

212692



Many thanks for another piece of the "Lt. Rogers" puzzle! I've found a digital copy of his book about the Ashantee Invasion online plus some of his military records, but I hadn't found the literary link you posted in any of my searches.

[murf205]

What is your cast boolit load, I've got the Noe 375 grain mold and always looking for load data that has worked for other people.

As soon as he gets back home from a trip I'll get his data for the 400 gr load.

[15meter]

As soon as he gets back home from a trip I'll get his data for the 400 gr load.

Thanks, tough to find cast data for some of these African safari boomers. I load cast for a number of them, compiling as much data as I can get my hands on.

[murf205]

I sympathize with you. Hard to find reduced bazooka loads these days. I have never used 5744 but I see a lot of people loving it with cast boolits in big cases. Gotta' be a 5744 load somewhere for a 470 nitro and a "little" 400 gr boolit. I have also read a lot of loads with Re 15 and the results supposedly are stellar, but that powder seems a bit fast when you see most handloads with H4831-a lot slower that Re15 for sure. ReLoader 19-maybe but it's not my rifle to be experimenting with and, after all, it was $11,000 with the fitted case!

[15meter]

I sympathize with you. Hard to find reduced bazooka loads these days. I have never used 5744 but I see a lot of people loving it with cast boolits in big cases. Gotta' be a 5744 load somewhere for a 470 nitro and a "little" 400 gr boolit. I have also read a lot of loads with Re 15 and the results supposedly are stellar, but that powder seems a bit fast when you see most handloads with H4831-a lot slower that Re15 for sure. ReLoader 19-maybe but it's not my rifle to be experimenting with and, after all, it was $11,000 with the fitted case!

I'll have to dig but I think there is a cordite to Reloder 15 conversion formula. Most of the original English doubles had a cordite/bullet load that they were regulated with stamped on the rifle. Multiple x by y and in theory you have a duplicate load. Unfortunately that is supposed to work with jacketed, with cast, the Voodoo factor shows up because so little work has been done with them. It's a shame, reduced loads in them make them a hoot to shoot.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Many thanks for another piece of the "Lt. Rogers" puzzle! I've found a digital copy of his book about the Ashantee Invasion online plus some of his military records, but I hadn't found the literary link you posted in any of my searches.

Found it, I think, on Google Books. Any help I gave is amply rewarded by being directed to "Now the Gatling gun has no nerves to disturb, and is not influenced by the character of those whom it is directed to kill." It ranks along with Hilaire Belloc's:

"Whatever happens, we have got,
The Maxim gun, and they have not."

[Reverend Al]

Found it, I think, on Google Books. Any help I gave is amply rewarded by being directed to "Now the Gatling gun has no nerves to disturb, and is not influenced by the character of those whom it is directed to kill." It ranks along with Hilaire Belloc's:

"Whatever happens, we have got,
The Maxim gun, and they have not."

Here is one of his military records that I found in an earlier search. He's listed under the 3rd West India Regiment.

http://www.jamaicanfamilysearch.com/Members/al61mil.htm

[murf205]

What is your cast boolit load, I've got the Noe 375 grain mold and always looking for load data that has worked for other people.
My friend has not got back to me with his load but I just got off the phone with Accurate Powders and the tech guy quoted the load immediately. He said to use 49grs of 5744 with a 400 gr cast boolit for 1750-1800 fps. His max was 66 grs for 2150-2200 fps but when I get into that range I use H4831. I use Fed 215 primers in all of the 470 loads with no problems. However, after talking with the folks at CCI, their primer is the hottest one on the market as of a couple yrs ago,FYI. Not force but flame temp. I don't know about the FED 216, but no matter, the unwashed masses cannot get those anyway. The powders we are talking about are not that hard to lite anyway. Hope this helps and let us know your results.

[GEOMETRIC]

There was a African guide that made a video on how to properly handle a double rifle. He specializes in Cape buffalo & Hippo safaris. He says the double rifle is the only thing he would hunt with. I hope he keeps his life insurance policy current. He waits until a BUFF, in a stopping situation, gets within 10 yds. or so before he shoots. He says that is because you can't afford to miss. The video is pretty easy to find. I believe he is shooting a .450 NE or something similar with DTs, of course. Truck loads of DG has been killed with bolt guns but give me a double when things are up close & personal. I haven't been fortunate enough to hunt African DG but I have killed a number of large boars that were quite capable of doing great bodily harm. I have a .45-70 Pedersoli Kodiak & a Pedersoli Kodiak in .58 cal.. I read an article by a guy that did a lot of big game hunting in Africa with a .45-70 with .500 gr. solids. He said it worked great & he never felt under gunned. He didn't say what the load was but I think it was on the "high end" side.
I can't speak from personal experience but based on what those that can have said, I would go with a .416 unless you are going to be hunting primarily the really big & dangerous stuff & I wouldn't go heavier unless you can handle the recoil. I believe traditional wisdom has it, "shoot the biggest gun you can shoot well"!
I was born with the affliction of being left handed. Pop called me his poor little left handed son. God bless my Dad, he was awfully good to me. Back when I was a pup, left handed repeaters were pretty scarce. I learned to shoot a DT, SXS. They work great for me. I have always heard, "don't change horses in mid stream". I have a safe full of SXS, DT doubles & have no desire to shoot anything else in a shotgun. I also have a LH M 77 Ruger in .300 Win. that I shoot very effectively. .35 Whelen? that seems to be a very useful caliber & is said to be a jam up cast bullet rifle. BTW, the Pedersolis don't shoot minute of angle groups but I was pleasantly surprised at how well regulated they are. Both are regulated & group plenty good enough for hunting at up to 100 yds. with everything I have stuffed in them to date. Note that these are not squirrel rifles. I haven't shot any of the really heavy African thumpers yet but I haven't reached my recoil limit either. 2,200 FPS loads in a light Ruger No. 1 in .45-70 & a 450 grain bullet are getting close! Ditto for 3 oz. loads in my 10 ga. 3.5" guns. I haven't shot any of them since the lead ban for waterfowl. Much lighter loads of tungsten work as well & are much easier on me.

[JSnover]

That's pretty much what I'm thinking. If any of my 45-70s were doubles I'd load them with 500gr and and be on my way. But they're not and I found a little bit of empty space in one of my gun safes...

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Here is one of his military records that I found in an earlier search. He's listed under the 3rd West India Regiment.

http://www.jamaicanfamilysearch.com/Members/al61mil.htm

Ah yes, with the all but excessively interesting Dr. Barry as assistant surgeon in the Royal Military Hospital. Actually I very much doubt if Dr. Barry's transvestism was recreational. Young doctors without financial backing could easily fail in private practice in those days, as Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, although highly qualified, did. It was very natural for an adventurous young doctor, with more interest in emergency surgery than minor ailments, to become a naval or army surgeon, as did Sherlock Holmes's Dr. Watson before they met.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Barry_(surgeon)#Gender_and_personal_life

On the superior reliability of the double rifle, I think it is a very close thing. You get a second shot without doing a thing except a totally instinctive finger movement, when the first is fired, misfired or prevented by mechanical malfunction, and in a well made double rifle malfunction was exceedingly rare. But a small piece of twig or reed between the barrels and the table of the action can stop you closing a double for shot number three. It is about the easiest of jams to clear, but you could get quite seriously killed in the few seconds it takes. I reflect on the story of the journalist who is reputed to have asked "Apart from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?" I take that not as an example of journalistic callousness, but of how judgment goes out the window under stress.

The point has been well made about familiarity with your rifle. The only firearm made in my lifetime that I ever want to use again is my Brno Model 2 rimfire, aka CZ nowadays, which I bought for thirty pounds, ten shillings and sixpence in 1970. I haven't stripped the bolt in twenty years. (As a student I dieted to buy that rifle, and I would as soon get my mother wet or dirty.) But I could still do it in two seconds with the end of a pencil.

It has a vertical-axis cocking-piece safety, rather like the Winchester Model 70 (as is the trigger), which is one of the best on any firearm. But it goes forward to safe, back to fire - the opposite of most others. It could easily be rectified by an after-market replacement, if anybody in that line of business is reading this. That is a source of error I would want to be sure of eliminating, by practice if not hardware, before using a similar rifle on anything that could get me flustered, let alone squashed flat.

As to single triggers, we mustn't forget that especially in their early days, they were a frequent source of trouble you can only afford with small game. At least rifle use would let you out of one undesirable complication, the need to make them selective. Even with shotguns this need, which began in the days of driven-game shoots, can be exaggerated. A small proportion of shooters are better off with more choke in the first barrel, slightly more with more in the second. In the unlikely event that I was ever having a shotgun made to my specification, I think I would go for half choke in both.

You can certainly get good big-game performance from the smokeless loaded .45-70, in a suitable rifle. How much brass gets left in the chamber doesn't alter that. Bear in mind, though, that powder, pressure and velocity don't much alter the regulation of the double's barrels. If a load gives more recoil, the bullet exits after a smaller proportion of it. It is bullet weight that adjusts or maladjusts regulation.

[sharps4590]

I own and shoot two DR's, both old hammer guns. One in 11.15 X 60R and the other in 500 BPE. I've also had the privilege of working with a couple fairly new hammerless doubles owned by a good friend, one in 450 NE and the other in 9.3 X 74R. Both of which he has used extensively and successfully in Africa and on dangerous game. As others have stated a lot depends on what you're used to. For me I wouldn't consider a double rifle with a single trigger but I've been using double trigger, SXS guns and rifle for decades. The same can be said for bolt rifles and were I headed to Africa, for dangerous game the bolt rifles would stay in camp. Neither is inadequate and to say one is better than the other indicates to me a lack of experience with both. The one you're most comfortable with and confident in is the one you should carry.

[Bigslug]

So I got a reasonable deal on the Valmet with plenty of room in my budget for another set of barrels or to get it 'smithed up to .375JDJ or H&H.

We of course demand pics and updates!:mrgreen:

[JSnover]

With luck the 9.3x74 will be subject to load development and training this spring, I'll know soon enough if it's the right tool or if it needs to replaced.

[waksupi]

At a local shoot last weekend, an old guy brought a double along to shoot up his loaded ammo, as he was selling the rifle. He said he has 16 more he is selling! Wish I had a collection like that!

[JSnover]

We of course demand pics and updates!:mrgreen:

Whatever happens, there will be pics!

[JSnover]

At a local shoot last weekend, an old guy brought a double along to shoot up his loaded ammo, as he was selling the rifle. He said he has 16 more he is selling! Wish I had a collection like that!

Seems like I'm NEVER in the right place at the right time...

[GEOMETRIC]

Some interesting thoughts here. On double triggers one quote comes to mind, "the single selective trigger is an example of technology defeating common sense". If only sense was common. Another advantage of the double is it can give you an instant choice of loads. I instinctively pull the trigger for the barrel that has the load I want to shoot without the need to fiddle around with selectors when time is of the essence.

[JSnover]

Single vs. double triggers... I'm on the fence as to which I'd prefer but in this case the decision was based on rifles that were affordable and available.
I sure do appreciate the the replies, though. Lots of food for thought.

[Bigslug]

Single vs. double triggers... I'm on the fence as to which I'd prefer but in this case the decision was based on rifles that were affordable and available.
I sure do appreciate the the replies, though. Lots of food for thought.

Of course, NOW we can get into the less-discussed philosophy of over/under double rifle deployment:

Do you set up for the top barrel to fire first because it's closer to your line of sight and will likely hit closer to your point of aim at horn & claw range?

. . .or. . .

Do you set up to fire the bottom barrel first because recoil from its lower bore axis will result in less muzzle rise and let you get back on the sights quicker for the second shot?

If the ejectors are selective, which barrel is easier to reload if you only fire one and need to top off before looking for more trouble?

Hmmmmmmm. . . .:veryconfu

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Selective ejectors now! in bird-shooting or even on the range, that can save you from losing a cartridge - and with the ultimate in double rifles it might be one that costs close to the price of a boy's basic .22. But after paying all an African safari costs you? You don't open the rifle and decide whether to take out one cartridge or two. You have two all ready, and you can't fire the rifle while it is open with one loaded cartridge in it.

[JSnover]

I figured I'd operate it as it was designed (the ejectors are not selective) and get to know where each shot will land before I start packing for the trip.
Two spare cartridges (all four of the same type to keep things simple) between the fingers of the firing hand and a PH with a reputation for not letting his clients get eaten.

[GEOMETRIC]

The best solution with your stack barrel is put two triggers on it. Personally, I wouldn't own a double gun that didn't have two triggers. From my view point, a single trigger of any variety has nothing to offer on a double gun.

[charlie b]

I figured I'd operate it as it was designed (the ejectors are not selective) and get to know where each shot will land before I start packing for the trip.
Two spare cartridges (all four of the same type to keep things simple) between the fingers of the firing hand and a PH with a reputation for not letting his clients get eaten.

This ^^

LOL

[Greg B.]

I am no expert on African hunting but was planning a safari until fate intervened but still have the Ruger Magnum Rifle in 416 Rigby (I couldn't afford a double). The reason I selected this caliber was due to having read African Rifles and Cartridges By John Pondoro Taylor a profesional ivory hunter and poacher not to mention double gun fan. He covers all of the points raised in this thread and while written in 1948 makes fascinating reading for anyone interested in these topics.

[iomskp]

I just have two, one was in 400 3 inch but when I got it, it had been bored out to 444 Rem and the other is a 300 sherwood that is still away getting regulated, both have two triggers.

[GEOMETRIC]

Nobody wants to change anything they are accustomed to doing. People don't like DTs simply because they haven't learned to use them. So how many Cape buffalo do you think you might kill? Buying an expensive gun just to kill one or two DG critters might be good for a rich dude but may not be wise for the rest of us. I would like to kill a Cape buff but probably never will. Africa is not the only place that has wild buffalo & some are bigger, although probably not as dangerous, excepting the Asian Guar. You have a choice, you can spend a fortune on the ultimate double rifle or you can be a little more careful & use what you have. That is assuming it is legal and reasonably adequate. Exposed hammers are a little slower & ejectors make for faster reloading but I have never felt handicapped with visible hammers. My sidelock Merkel has selective auto ejectors & they work flawlessly. One of my Elseys has them but I disconnected them. When birds are flushing, nobody is worried about empty hulls but at all other times they are a PIA if you reload. Being able to shoot what you have well is always better than having the biggest or best gun. A big bore rifle can be down loaded & will work great on lessor game & as one guy said, "you can eat right up to the bullet hole".

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I just have two, one was in 400 3 inch but when I got it, it had been bored out to 444 Rem and the other is a 300 sherwood that is still away getting regulated, both have two triggers.



That conversion would annoy me, if I had only discovered it on receipt of the rifle. I don't know the .444 Remington, and perhaps the neck diameter of the .400 makes it possible to do a clean job of rerifling and rechambering. But in the UK the .400 - 3in. is one of a long list of chamberings I can own with no authorisation whatever, as an antique, if made up to 1939. It can still be added quite easily to an existing licence, unless you have available only an indoor range or the opportunity to shoot field mice or something. But I take a possibly perverse pleasure in saying "No, I don't need authorisation to acquire it. I already have it." If it turned out to be a modern chambering, I would have to lodge it with a licenced dealer and start the formalities.

[Texas by God]

Double triggers equates to two single barrel guns on one stock. That's what I would want on a DG double!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[GEOMETRIC]

.444 Remington?? There is a .444 Marlin & a .44 Remington magnum which is a handgun cartridge. The max. O.A. loaded length of the .444 Marlin is only 2.57". Are you talking about the .416 Remington? The only license I am required to have is a hunting license & a concealed carry permit when I pack a side arm. Ironically, the vast majority of crimes are committed in violation of our firearms laws (typically by individuals that can not legally own a firearm), legitimate firearms owners are rarely involved.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I thought he meant .444 Marlin, unless the vastly excessive proliferation of cartridges had gone one more than I knew about. A slip of the pen is easily made when there is no pen.

The .444 Marlin would probably be almost as good a cartridge for a double rifle as the .400 - 3in. I say "almost" because barrel regulation will determine the bullet weight you can use, and if it is the light .44 Magnum-style ones, it may not be quite as good regarding trajectory. The extremely large Express cases originated with black powder and were kept up because the early smokeless powders were unpredictable from batch to batch, and easily affected by tropical heat. (No doubt judging a man by the size of his cartridge played its part in the marketplace, though.) More powder space reduced the effect on peak pressure. A smaller case is usually fine nowadays.

I think the larger bore and rifling would take up part of what used to be the .400 case, and the chamber length and throat for the Marlin round could be completely normal. I'd be tempted to rechamber for something less modern and, if you will pardon the term, transatlantic, but maybe that is just me. I think all the British cases made for a .430 bullet were rimless, and a bit large in the base for a light .400 rifle. A traditional-looking wildcat cartridge? Well maybe if barrel regulation meant handloading the Marlin anyway.

[JSnover]

The best solution with your stack barrel is put two triggers on it. Personally, I wouldn't own a double gun that didn't have two triggers. From my view point, a single trigger of any variety has nothing to offer on a double gun.

After looking into it, seems there are a few DT sets out there and they're fairly simple to install.

[GEOMETRIC]

If you don't mind dealing with a wildcat, there are a number of possibilities. The basic .45-70 comes in various lengths from .45-70 up to .45-120 & can be necked down. Then there is the .405 Win. that can be loaded with a 400 grain bullet if used in a break open action. Have you seen the Bailey Bradshaw Farquharson falling block double rifle? Very nice!!

[Soundguy]

I got an itch that I may be able to scratch next year if I can get to Africa. Does anyone have experience/ recommendations regarding double rifles and/or African hunting? .375 or .416 should do it, but I've shot .50 BMG so I won't rule out a .458 or .460.

I have 2 Sabatti doubles, a 9.3x74 in a sxs, and a 470NE in o/u. I also have one of those inexpensive Biakal 45-70 doubles, but, it's a toy mostly.


213194213195

[Soundguy]

213196

another of the 9.3, assembled

[JSnover]

GEO, I don't mind Wildcats but I'd like something more conventional (available over there) in case there's a problem.
Soundguy, those are nice! I hadn't heard enough good things about the Baikals to buy one and haven't seen the right Sabatti at the right price... yet.

[Soundguy]

Google Sabatti and check them out first. There were issues with some of them

Long time ago, yes. They corrected their mistakes.

DO google search them, a major Australian outfitter/guide reviewed some of their latest guns and calls them the best bang for you buck, and as a result, ordered a bunch of them.

Early problems were with regulation methods. You dont see ground out muzzles anymore.

Even their wood has greatly improved. Grain flaws were seen on some.

I ordered one last year to play with in 9.3x74r, loved it so much that a short while later I grabbed another in 470NE.

For African game, do your research, 9.3 is .366", and some places allow it.

I have a 375h&h in a ruger #1 tropical, and now like the 9.3 better.

I like the 470ne double better than my .458 Lott ruger magnum bolt action or my 416 Rigby in a cz550 safari

[Soundguy]

GEO, I don't mind Wildcats but I'd like something more conventional (available over there) in case there's a problem.
Soundguy, those are nice! I hadn't heard enough good things about the Baikals to buy one and haven't seen the right Sabatti at the right price... yet.

Yeah,the biakal is a toy only. The jack-screw arrangement makes it so you can vary the barrel regulation, thus, as a reloader, I can pkay with it on the bench.. But id never hunt with it,nor rely on it for anything other than killing paper or bowling pins.

I went back and forth on doubles for a while, looking at pedersoli's, ( but I'm not an exposed hammer fan ), the sabatti, and the valmet.

I finally got a $deal$ on my 9.3x74r sxs that I decided I couldn't pass up. I read about their early bad history, but also read newer reviews that other than personal preference on sights, and cosmetic wood issues, that the barrel regulation and action was solid, so I took the chance. Lived it so much that I grabbed another in a bigger Big 5 caliber. I must say though, that a Winchester grand european almost made it home instead of that 2nd sabatti.
Shooting the exact factory regulating load including brand of ammo, I'm getting identical results to the test targets. My big bolt guns may get jealous...

Ps, on my 'thin skinned' gun the 9.3, I was less worried about a double trigger, and settled for single, but on the 470NE where you are for sure shooting something bad.. Double triggers were a must.

[JSnover]

Ps, on my 'thin skinned' gun the 9.3, I was less worried about a double trigger, and settled for single, but on the 470NE where you are for sure shooting something bad.. Double triggers were a must.

That's my focus for the moment, converting to DT, disabling the safety and possibly picking up a set of 30-06 barrels for small game.
Luckily I have the time and the money to grab a true dangerous game rifle that's built the way I want it and doesn't cost more than my car did. It's doable but it may take some stalking.

[Soundguy]

I'm still on the hunt for a grand European..

[15meter]

Thanks!
As I understand it the 9.3 is only legal in two countries for dangerous game, .375 being the minimum bore elsewhere.
So I got a reasonable deal on the Valmet with plenty of room in my budget for another set of barrels or to get it 'smithed up to .375JDJ or H&H.

Check before doing a major caliber change, some countries have laws that the only ammo you can have has to match the rifle you are using. No reaming out to a different caliber without making the engraving on the barrel match what goes in the chamber.

[Spooksar]

Merkel 140 in 470 NE, Baikel in 30-06 And a Brno O/U in 9.3x74

[JSnover]

Check before doing a major caliber change, some countries have laws that the only ammo you can have has to match the rifle you are using. No reaming out to a different caliber without making the engraving on the barrel match what goes in the chamber.

Thanks for the hedzup!

[JSnover]

Merkel 140 in 470 NE, Baikel in 30-06 And a Brno O/U in 9.3x74

How do you like the Merkel?

[15meter]

My friend has not got back to me with his load but I just got off the phone with Accurate Powders and the tech guy quoted the load immediately. He said to use 49grs of 5744 with a 400 gr cast boolit for 1750-1800 fps. His max was 66 grs for 2150-2200 fps but when I get into that range I use H4831. I use Fed 215 primers in all of the 470 loads with no problems. However, after talking with the folks at CCI, their primer is the hottest one on the market as of a couple yrs ago,FYI. Not force but flame temp. I don't know about the FED 216, but no matter, the unwashed masses cannot get those anyway. The powders we are talking about are not that hard to lite anyway. Hope this helps and let us know your results.

Thanks for the info, if you friend is using a different powder I would love to hear his load, being dependent on one powder is not a good thing. With double rifles playing up and down with the velocity is also a way to regulate the barrels and I really like reduced (mouse fart) kind of loads. One weekend my buddy and I went through between 300 and 400 rounds starting @ 470 N.E. and working our way down through about 7 or 8 rifles to 350 Rigby Magnum shooting 38 special boolits.
213664

Do that with full house loads and we would have been at the surgeons to have our shoulders rebuilt on Monday.:bigsmyl2:

[murf205]

He cannot find his data. If you could see his loading bench you could understand. He gives a new meaning to the word clutter. I called Accurate Powders and the guy I talked to said that 49grs of 5744 and a 400gr cast boolit would deliver 1750 fps in the Merkel. Max for 5744 was 66grs according to him. Hodgdon's tech told me to fill the case to the base level of a seated boolit and multiply by 30% and that would be the starting load of Trail Boss. He did not say anything about max of Trail Boss but nobody in their right mind would use that powder for max loads. After a couple of emails, Tom @ Accurate Molds designed a 510 gr mold for the 470 which would make full throttle practice loads a LOT cheaper. It's a really great looking mold (48-510N) and if the Merkel were mine, I's have one in a heartbeat. After all that, I am having a total right shoulder joint replacement on the 19th, so my 470 nitro days may be over. Maybe my 358 Norma days as well. This getting old aint for sissies, brother.

[Soundguy]

Your trailboss data is wrong.

Fill case to base of seated bullet, no compression, free space only, then multiply by 70%

70% free case fill under projectile is starting, 100% is max, never use a compressed load. For safety, I never go past 95%.

[murf205]

What I posted was exactly what the person I talked to at Hodgdon Powders told me. I'm not saying you are wrong or that he is right, just what he told me in a phone conversation. Makes you wonder just who they hand the call off to. If you have loaded T B this way, and your results confirmed what you were looking for I must agree. Have you shot Trail Boss in your 470? If so, what speeds did you get?

[Soundguy]

Don't take my word for it, take IMR's

https://imrpowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/trail-boss-reduced-loads-r_p.pdf

The PDF is a small data sheet, but the paragraph above the data sheet explains the load, 70% starting, etc.

They must have given you to a salesman. Universally across the board, salesmen usually give out bogus info.

I am still in the development stage for working up a trailboss load for my 470. It will not regulate with factory jwords in its regulating load weight, using trailboss. I'm in the process of trying to track down some cast boolits for it and possibly experiment with lighter weight projectiles.

[Spooksar]

The Buffalo in my avatar was shot with my Merkel SxS in 470 NE.

[murf205]

Don't take my word for it, take IMR's

https://imrpowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/trail-boss-reduced-loads-r_p.pdf

The PDF is a small data sheet, but the paragraph above the data sheet explains the load, 70% starting, etc.

They must have given you to a salesman. Universally across the board, salesmen usually give out bogus info.

I am still in the development stage for working up a trailboss load for my 470. It will not regulate with factory jwords in its regulating load weight, using trailboss. I'm in the process of trying to track down some cast boolits for it and possibly experiment with lighter weight projectiles.

Thanks a ton for straightening that out. I never thought that I would be the one to relay bad loading info but, trust me, it wont happen again.
As far as the lighter projectiles, my friend bought some 400gr cast boolits for a 480 Ruger and although they didn't exactly shoot to regulation, they were close enough to practice with. As much as those factory bullets cost, it wouldn't take long for one of Mr. Toms Accurate molds to pay for its self.

[murf205]

The Buffalo in my avatar was shot with my Merkel SxS in 470 NE.
Nice buff. How far did he go after the shot?

[JSnover]

The Buffalo in my avatar was shot with my Merkel SxS in 470 NE.

Nice!!
Where was the hunt and would you book with that same outfit again?

[Soundguy]

Anyone know of a print magazine that caters to the double rifle crowd?

[StolzerandSons]

The Double Gun and Single Shot Journal. Beautiful magazine with excellent photos and articles but also on the upper end of cost as magazines go.

[Soundguy]

The Double Gun and Single Shot Journal. Beautiful magazine with excellent photos and articles but also on the upper end of cost as magazines go.

Never heard of it, will have to try to locate a copy.

thanks

[Ballistics in Scotland]

There are some copies on eBay, and lots on my life support system, www.bookfinder.com . You will often find it listed without "single shot" in the title, so maybe that was added later. Prices are mostly a shade above high end as magazines go, but probably well worth it if you ever find a particular article recommended.

[JSnover]

Never heard of it, will have to try to locate a copy.

thanks

I have a vague memory of seeing that magazine at Barnes & Noble... have to check next time I'm in there.

[Spooksar]

How do you like the Merkel?

I like it a lot, shot 2 Cape Buffalo and 1 Girraffe with it. Going after Elephant and Hippo in September