Franklin Armory non-NFA SBR

[FergusonTO35]

I've read in several places that Franklin Armory is coming out with an AR that has a sub-16" barrel and an actual buttstock and somehow it is not subject to NFA. Nobody is sure how exactly they pulled it off. Most likely explanation is that, like the binary trigger from the same firm, Franklin has found a microscopic loophole in the language of the NFA. If the gun is originally manufactured with both a stock and a sub-16" barrel it is not a non-NFA handgun or rifle. This also precludes it from being an NFA weapon made from a non-NFA rifle or handgun. The overall length is over 26", which apparently precludes it from being an AOW and somehow nullifies the barrel length issue because the weapon is not a non-NFA rifle and was never manufactured as such.

I'm not planning to buy one but my hat is off to them for creative thinking:

https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/franklin-armory-introduce-non-nfa-11-5-inch-ar-pattern-firearm/

[Elkins45]

I’m quite curious to see what particular loophole they are exploiting.

[pietro]

.

FWIW, Shockwave Technologies discovered a similar discrepancy about shotguns, many years ago ( http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/?page_id=88 )


Essentially, any shotgun originally made/issued as a PGO (Pistol Grip Only) shotgun can have a barrel shorter than 18" because it's considered just as a firearm & not as a shotgun - provided the mandated OAL of a minimum of 26" is adhered to.

Non-PGO shotguns though, can have their barrels likewise shortened to only 18", with the 26" OAL minimum adhered to.

Which is what I did with my 28" barreled non-PGO Mossberg 500:

https://i.imgur.com/xKOxbK5l.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/dAy7EGTl.jpg

.

[FergusonTO35]

Personally, I see nothing appealing about shooting a bottleneck rifle cartridge out of such a short barrel. Now, make it in a pistol caliber and you've got my interest. The main problem I see with these NFA workarounds is that ATF is free to change it's mind on legality any time they want to. Or, issue a series of contradictory opinions on them as they did with the pistol braces. ATF letters do not carry the force of law, they are only advisory and based on a particular sample of weapon or device.

[nicholst55]

Personally, I see nothing appealing about shooting a bottleneck rifle cartridge out of such a short barrel. Now, make it in a pistol caliber and you've got my interest. The main problem I see with these NFA workarounds is that ATF is free to change it's mind on legality any time they want to. Or, issue a series of contradictory opinions on them as they did with the pistol braces. ATF letters do not carry the force of law, they are only advisory and based on a particular sample of weapon or device.

Actually, the manufacturer has NOT stated that the firearm is chambered for a bottleneck rifle cartridge. There is speculation that this may be a .410 shotgun.

[FergusonTO35]

Then in that case, I'm definitely out. If it is a shotgun, are they classifying it as a smoothbore pistol with stock over 26"? That should mean it is legal to add a stock to an existing smoothbore pistol over 26". This makes my brain hurt, and ATF could easily reverse itself when an anti-RKBA administration comes in.

[mcdaniel.mac]

Then in that case, I'm definitely out. If it is a shotgun, are they classifying it as a smoothbore pistol with stock over 26"? That should mean it is legal to add a stock to an existing smoothbore pistol over 26". This makes my brain hurt, and ATF could easily reverse itself when an anti-RKBA administration comes in.

Stock and smoothbore means it has to have an 18" barrel. Firearms with a barrel less than 18", smooth bore, and OAL over 26" cannot have a stock without being subject to NFA regulations.

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[lefty o]

im betting the stock is pinned, and as the afte has approved the braces as being ok to stick your chin on and still be a pistol, this thing is being sold as a pistol with a lot of hype.

[osteodoc08]

That's kinda what I was thinking. A direct blow back straight wall cartridge pistol caliber pistol.

[lefty o]

just my opinion, but id bet on it being in .223/5.56.

[Hamish]

The great Karnak says: "What is a Whitworth rifle,,,,,,"

[mcdaniel.mac]

The great Karnak says: "What is a Whitworth rifle,,,,,,"Muzzle loaders, pre-1900 models, and certain replicas are exempt from NFA restrictions on caliber and length.

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[Smoke4320]

its a Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator

[Lloyd Smale]

I'm sure what there calling it is a handgun with an adjustable arm brace. Everyone arm is a different length don't your know:bigsmyl2:

[mcdaniel.mac]

I'm sure what there calling it is a handgun with an adjustable arm brace. Everyone arm is a different length don't your know:bigsmyl2:What I'm hearing is that it fires on the release, and they think they've had a loophole. I suspect that ATF will consider that to be a pull of the trigger. If you modified an SKS so that releasing the bolt caused it to slam-fire until it ran dry or hit an empty, ATF would still consider that a mahinegun even if the trigger was removed entirely.

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[lefty o]

What I'm hearing is that it fires on the release, and they think they've had a loophole. I suspect that ATF will consider that to be a pull of the trigger. If you modified an SKS so that releasing the bolt caused it to slam-fire until it ran dry or hit an empty, ATF would still consider that a mahinegun even if the trigger was removed entirely.

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the trigger isnt the trick here, its the short barrel. the trigger will fire on the pull, and the release nothing new with that. binery triggers the ATF so far doesnt have a problem with, so long as they don double or fire more than 1 shot per any one action.

[mcdaniel.mac]

the trigger isnt the trick here, its the short barrel. the trigger will fire on the pull, and the release nothing new with that. binery triggers the ATF so far doesnt have a problem with, so long as they don double or fire more than 1 shot per any one action.Again, I'm on secondhand scratch here, but apparently it *only* fires on release, not on the pull, therefore the ATF definition of "firearm" per the NFA would not apply, hence the barrel length restriction does not apply.

Could be an airgun I guess.

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[lefty o]

a binary trigger fires both on the pull, and if set to do so, the release of the trigger. the trigger is not the hubub of this short barrel gun. even if it were, a pure release only trigger in any firearm, is still a firearm. heck a stripped ar15 is considered a firearm with zero parts installed in it.

[Lloyd Smale]

release triggers were popular with trap shooters for a while. It still takes a movement of your figure to release the trigger. Binary triggers just do it both ways. Binary triggers and sig braces both come with a copy of the batf letter saying there legal. Only thing a guy would have to keep in mind is who knows what the liberals will do to those laws if they get back in power or what happens the first time someone with a AR pistol with a sig brace and a binary trigger is used in a mass shooting. Weve been sold out before!

[tomme boy]

It is ONLY able to shoot with the binary trigger. There is NO semi function. So it is a firearm. Not a rifle or pistol.

Look at the picture that is out and you will see the safe and the binary setting. NO semi

[lefty o]

franklins press stuff shows their normal binary trigger. cant be long before they escape out into the wild and we see what the actual deal is.https://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=F1ANSLNTG&name=Anderson+Manufacturing+AM15+Multi.+Cal.+Lower +Receiver+w%2f+Trigger+Guard&groupid=8389 this stripped empty ar lower rcvr is considered a firearm with no trigger in it. adding any sort of trigger to that is not going to make it a non firearm.

[mcdaniel.mac]

franklins press stuff shows their normal binary trigger. cant be long before they escape out into the wild and we see what the actual deal is.https://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=F1ANSLNTG&name=Anderson+Manufacturing+AM15+Multi.+Cal.+Lower +Receiver+w%2f+Trigger+Guard&groupid=8389 this stripped empty ar lower rcvr is considered a firearm with no trigger in it. adding any sort of trigger to that is not going to make it a non firearm.That's an interesting question. Putting a lightning link in a lower makes a machine gun, removing it makes it not a machine gun. I wonder if the same is true of others.

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[lefty o]

That's an interesting question. Putting a lightning link in a lower makes a machine gun, removing it makes it not a machine gun. I wonder if the same is true of others.

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while the lightning link is another ball of wax, i really dont think the binary trigger is the deal with this "not a rifle"AR 15. ive seen some really off the wall theories on other sites, guess we will find out when they reveal it at shot show.

[tomme boy]

The non semi trigger position is what a bunch of people are saying. Having only safe and binary position. This makes more sence than any of the stupid smoothbore, shotgun, twisted barrel theories.

[lefty o]

The non semi trigger position is what a bunch of people are saying. Having only safe and binary position. This makes more sence than any of the stupid smoothbore, shotgun, twisted barrel theories.
.now i could be wrong, it happens, but a stripped rcvr is a firearm. i dont see how it becomes a non firearm regardless of any of the things people have guessed at. i still believe its because they are just producing the thing as a pistol.

[Artful]

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[lefty o]

i dont think so, but we will see.

[tomme boy]

Artful, Who would buy a gun with a barrel like that? It would be completely useless. If it ends up being that, It will be a big failure.

[Artful]

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[historicfirearms]

Brilliant. I think it's great what Franklin Armory is doing. The straight lands and grooves get around the definite of rifling. This would make a great home defense gun. And it just goes one step farther at pointing out the absurdity of the ATF firearm rules. God bless America.

[Electric88]

https://www.outdoorhub.com/news/2018/01/23/breaking-news-franklin-armory-reformation-straight-rifling-shoots-footballs/

This is interesting...

How long until we get a group buy going with MiHec for the football rounds? :kidding:

[lefty o]

https://www.franklinarmory.com/blogs/news/no-tax-stamp
not a rifle, not a shotgun, no tax stamp... i still say its a whole bunch of hype for a pistol!

[mcdaniel.mac]

.300 blackout seems like the worst choice. Honestly 9mm or another pistol caliber would have seemed more better

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[FergusonTO35]

I won't be buying one, but I think it is a neat idea.

[lefty o]

https://youtu.be/_LPKAm0bNsw
gotta be honest, i like the trigger and actually own one, but this is just stupid! LOL

[RPRNY]

Haven't the Russians already done this?

[FergusonTO35]

A lot of cheapo suicide special handguns back in the day had rifling that was straight or nearly so, just for appearance sake. Yeah, I would be more likely to buy something like this in a pistol cartridge. Supposedly, the Reformation is patented or patent pending. What exactly did they patent? As mentioned before, straight rifling is nothing new. Maybe the whole gun is under a design patent, but no individual feature or part of it is?

[Artful]

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[lefty o]

wow fully retarded.

[Lloyd Smale]

that was cool
https://youtu.be/_LPKAm0bNsw
gotta be honest, i like the trigger and actually own one, but this is just stupid! LOL

[Elkins45]

Fletchettes with sabots might make it interesting. Otherwise it’s a hard yawn from me.

[RPRNY]

https://youtu.be/_LPKAm0bNsw
gotta be honest, i like the trigger and actually own one, but this is just stupid! LOL

Genuinely funny!

[Tracy]

I hope someone starts making straight rifled .50 Beowulf barrels for those of us who want to build our own non-nfa gun like this. It would shoot round balls just fine. Maybe even two per cartridge.

[Electric88]

I hope someone starts making straight rifled .50 Beowulf barrels for those of us who want to build our own non-nfa gun like this. It would shoot round balls just fine. Maybe even two per cartridge.

Might be the closest thing we can get to actual cannons.

[Elkins45]

Have you seen the special bullets they are going to load for it? They look like tiny footballs with a fletching tail on them; basically like a Nerf football. Make it in 45 caliber and get a bullet mold for one of those fletched projectiles and you might have something.

[FergusonTO35]

The high price tag not withstanding, I can see a tiny niche for this rifle, err, firearm. Folks who are dying to have an SBR or "assault" rifle but live in a place where they are prohibited, although I'm sure laws will quickly be amended or reinterpreted to close that door. I wonder how well this thing would work in a pistol cartridge like 9mm. The stumpy bullet might stabilize more than a long .223 slug, and 4 moa at 50 yards is good enough for most folks with this type of gun.

[Handloader109]

Build a 300 AAC Pistol. You don't even need a foam cover on the round buffer tube to shoot it against your cheek. Almost zero recoil. Those in communist states, I'm sorry.....

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