Holy Black ??

[Johnch]

Where did the term come from ?

The term has always buged me
I have to deal with some BPCR guys that think if it isn't loaded with Black
It is a junk load and look down on you

Just love to out shoot them with 777 in the Encore
Oh I don't tell them it is a custom barrel

John

[montana_charlie]

You say you have a problem with some BPCR shooters, and you come to a BPCR forum to state your displeasure.
Are you trolling, John?
CM

[August]

Personally, I think, if it isn't loaded with black powder, it is a junk load. I look down on you.

[Buckshot]

...............One wouldn't think there would be any problems loading cartridges with BP, as it's only been done for 140 years or so. But there are some issues modern BPC shooters deal with. I know that back when BP was the ONLY propellant, the serious manufacturers had carried it's production to an extremely high level for their flagship powders. There were varying qualities naturally, but the best of the best was exceedingly superb stuff. Today there is only a couple that may approch the best available from the late 19th century.

The other is that due to case drawing technology at the time, their brass held more powder then our solid head cases do. So the modern BPC shooter does have a couple issues to overcome or work around. I believe it may be the journey that takes a BPC shooter to a competitive level in this day and age, using an almost forgotten technology that pretty much died 100 years ago, that gives great satisfaction.

Another thing is that "Holy Black" was the first and ONLY firearm propellant for 800 years or so. Smokless is a relative newcomer on the scene.

Kind of off the subject but a thought that just popped into my head was that almost ALL the truely REALLY interesting firearms were designed when BP was THE propellant.

I just think the name "Holy Black" fits in the same genre as guys who believe a REAL hotrod has to have a flathead Ford engine to qualify.

.................Buckshot

[Don McDowell]

Well I will admit that the term "holy black" does seem a bit blasphamous, ( Got a handfull of preachers in the family tree)
But I almost find it more offensive for folks that don't shoot black powder in their BLACK POWDER CARTRIDGE RIFLES aka BPCR, to whine about getting joshed around abit, when they get into the middle of a bunch of hard core bpcr nuts, about shooting some of the stupidly expensive junk with the fake smoke :-D:drinks:

[RMulhern]

I believe the first posting I made on this site was one in the PP forum and that apparently was a major mistake because I was thinking that it would be a site whereby noone but those individuals whom were what I call 'full-fledged' proponents of BP would be members to. Instead I find out that the PP site here is also made up of folks shooting smokeless powder and PP bullets; some shooting cast bullets through modern rifles and maybe some that might be PP using jacketed bullets as well. My posting included a photo of a 5 shot group that my friend Kenny Wasserberger fired during the 5@200 event at Raton, New Mexico recently with a statement that I figured that a group like onto that could only be fired with BLACK POWDER! What I should have added to that statement in retrospect is that "a group like that could probably not be obtained using a LONG AND STRAIGHT CASE like the .45/110 cartridge except with blackpowder which....might have given more credence to my overall comment. Matter of fact...I believe my thinking to be correct in regards to the group size that Kenny fired due to the fact that a cartridge the length of the .45/110 was designed basically for blackpowder. If I"m wrong it won't be the first time!

So....again I come to this site and within the Black Powder Cartridge Forum there's this guy wanting to know why it's called the HOLY BLACK; someone whom apparently doesn't shoot blackpowder and he says it's 'bugging him'! Well...maybe it 'bugs me' and a few more that have come here to see his post! Well....in the interest of having 'Peace on Earth' let me just add that maybe we like to call it the HOLY BLACK because it performs very well for us doing what we like to do....and because we haven't found anything that works better in these old rifles that we like to use for hunting or competition; not to mention that there are folks that like to maybe just remain as historical as possible in their shooting hobby!

What I'd really like to know is that if someone comes here and makes a post on Paper Patching within the Black Powder Cartridge Forum.....is it likely to be MOVED to the PP Forum! If so....I just won't post...and become a 'Lurker' like many do!

[45 2.1]

I believe the first posting I made on this site was one in the PP forum and that apparently was a major mistake because I was thinking that it would be a site whereby noone but those individuals whom were what I call 'full-fledged' proponents of BP would be members to. Instead I find out that the PP site here is also made up of folks shooting smokeless powder and PP bullets; some shooting cast bullets through modern rifles and maybe some that might be PP using jacketed bullets as well. My posting included a photo of a 5 shot group that my friend Kenny Wasserberger fired during the 5@200 event at Raton, New Mexico recently with a statement that I figured that a group like onto that could only be fired with BLACK POWDER! What I should have added to that statement in retrospect is that "a group like that could probably not be obtained using a LONG AND STRAIGHT CASE like the .45/110 cartridge except with blackpowder which....might have given more credence to my overall comment. Matter of fact...I believe my thinking to be correct in regards to the group size that Kenny fired due to the fact that a cartridge the length of the .45/110 was designed basically for blackpowder. If I"m wrong it won't be the first time!

A very well worded post.......................

[wiljen]

What I should have added to that statement in retrospect is that "a group like that could probably not be obtained using a LONG AND STRAIGHT CASE like the .45/110 cartridge except with blackpowder which....might have given more credence to my overall comment. Matter of fact...I believe my thinking to be correct in regards to the group size that Kenny fired due to the fact that a cartridge the length of the .45/110 was designed basically for blackpowder.

What I'd really like to know is that if someone comes here and makes a post on Paper Patching within the Black Powder Cartridge Forum.....is it likely to be MOVED to the PP Forum! If so....I just won't post...and become a 'Lurker' like many do!


To address your question, No the mods don't move posts very often and certainly won't move a post that is related to both BP and PP out of one or the other forum. I would continue to post in both forums as you desire as your post clearly indicates that you understand with whom you are likely communicating. I'm sure that those of us heretics that shoot more smokeless and "That Fake stuff" than BP can learn a thing or two along the way, and who knows maybe even contribute something that works for BP shooters too.

I do agree that for the 45/90 and larger straight wall cartridges, it is very difficult if not impossible to achieve better consistency than BP provides.

[RMulhern]

To address your question, No the mods don't move posts very often and certainly won't move a post that is related to both BP and PP out of one or the other forum. I would continue to post in both forums as you desire as your post clearly indicates that you understand with whom you are likely communicating. I'm sure that those of us heretics that shoot more smokeless and "That Fake stuff" than BP can learn a thing or two along the way, and who knows maybe even contribute something that works for BP shooters too.

I do agree that for the 45/90 and larger straight wall cartridges, it is very difficult if not impossible to achieve better consistency than BP provides.

wiljen

Show me an individual that says "I know it all" and I'll show you a 'walking/breathing IDIOT'!! I've never felt that way personally and with 50 years of shooting/coaching marksmanship....I've learned a thing or two from 'newbies' and I think they learned a thing or two from me likewise!:-D:drinks::castmine:

[Don McDowell]

Having had the honor of shooting with and spotting for FPMlll once , I will attest to him being a fine and knowledgeable of a shooter a person could ever want to meet.

I just returned last night from the Sagebrush shoot in Alliance Ne. That shoot is open to any single shot rifle with any safe powder charge and lead bullet. The ranges on targets run anywhere from 225 to 1000 yds.
There are a goodly number of folks using the fake crap, and smokeless, and I even noticed a couple shooting smokeless paper patch. One thing I observed thru the entire affair was for the most part folks were happy and shooting. Nobody was carrying a chip on their shoulder as we see so often on these internet boards. There are a few personallities present that most folks would probably just as soon didn't show up, but what the heck. There is a small band of smokeless and fake crap shooters that started coming to the shoot last year, and while they drink and use to much loud profanity ,while in their campsite , and whining about being at a black powder rifle shoot, and having to much powder smoke to deal with, they are accepted willingly into the firing line.
Even when a well known in bpcr circles , man and wife team , shows up and cleans the prizes out shooting smokeless they are well liked among all the shooters.
Moral of the story , just because someone shoots the fake crap or smokeless, doesn't mean they can't get out and join in the fun.
Some might find out those knotheaded bpcr shooters are really a pretty good bunch of folks to be around, and will most likely bend over backwards to help a shooter on the firing line with any problem that jumps up over the course of a shoot. Just the way they do on these internet boards, only with a smile and a handshake that really isn't possible to convey here.

[John Boy]

Where did the term come from ?
The first time I saw the term (to my knowledge) 'Holy Black' was on The Frontier Spot forum back around 2002. Had never seen it called this way before.

Now- I'll pose this question. All gunpowders are Black but 'black powder' is really THE ORIGINAL GUNPOWDER. So, true to it's existence - that should be it's name

Any takers? OGCR's instead of BPCR![smilie=1:

[Johnch]

I am sorry if I ruffled some feathers

I guess , I didn't word my post the best

It is not the black I detest , as I shoot a fair amount of it

It is the term and a few of the holyer than though shooters that use it

John

[Southern Son]

There is one true gun powder, all other "propellants" are just a passing fad, like flares and safari suits (but at least safari suits have a cool factor, smoke less powder is just so yesterday).

[calaloo]

I'm sure everyone has heard the old saying "Holy Smoke". Who can guess where this smoke comes from?

Bill

[Nazgul]

Smokeless will soon fade into oblivion.

Or so my buddy tells me. He competes in the primitive shoots/field events.

[junkbug]

The first time I encountered the term was in the late 1980s or early 1990s in an article written by Ross Seyfried (I think). If my imperfect memory is not mistaken, it was in an article about shooting flintlock rifles. The only 'Substitute" available at the time was Pyrodex.


I can tell you from hard personal experience that Pyrodex works crappy in a flintlock, even using "real" FFFFG for priming. No wonder genuine black powder seemed so divine. To make my flintlock shoot at all, for quite some time, I had to use a 15 grain booster of FFFFG, and the remainder with Pyrodex. Where there is a will, there is a way, but I hope never to have to do THAT again.

Sean

[John Boy]

It is the term and a few of the holyer than though shooters that use it

John - I'm not a Holier than thou but let me tell it to you straight:
Make up a recipe with original gun powder - a 500+gr bullet - a single shot rifle with IRON sights - paint a 16" circle on a 1000yd target - sqeeeze the trigger and the lead splatters on the circle.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b59f573156

I've watched shooters with turn bolts and a 3-12 variable scope using smokeless powder that they dumped 20grs into the case and popped on a jacketed bullet ... miss the 16" Circle with successive shots


I would offer that BPCR and muzzleloader shooters are STUDENTS of the ART of Shooting Original Gunpowder

[missionary5155]

I'm sure everyone has heard the old saying "Holy Smoke". Who can guess where this smoke comes from?

Bill

The term HOLY SMOKE (somewhat derogatory) has its roots in the visual result from the Blood sacrifices that were offered on the alters of many religions but most importantly in Jerusalem. These blood sacrifices were a constant (everyday and numerous) and would be stilll carried out if the Temple had not been destroyed in 70 ad. For New Testament orientated individuals the Lord Jesus is our Blood sacrifice one time forever thus negating the need for any more "HOLY SMOKE".

[KCSO]

I have a few guns that I shoot smokless in and I have muzzleloaders and B/P guns that will never see anything but B/P. I figure that if it shot B/P in the old days that's good enough for me.
That said what we have today would for the most part ranks a poor grade of black powder. I have shot everything from Curtis and Harvey made in the 1890's to some really nasty stuff made in Scotland in the 1960's. If you have ever shot really good black you will be amazed at how good it got. Fouling build up with OLD Curtis and Harvey was almost nil. Velocity was higher and clean up was a little easier. But given that the process for making that powder meant losing the tumbler ever 6 months I doubt will will ever see as good a black powder. I will admit that Schutzen is just about as good.

As to Pyrodex or 777 or those others, WHY if you don't wan't to clean up b/p just use smokless and be done with it.