Accuracy with .44 Cast Bullets

[GuyG]

I cannot get consistant groups at 25 Yds. from a rest with my Redhawk and my S & W 44 Sp. Am now using store bought Keith type bullets - 250's in the 44 Mag. and 215's in the Sp. Guns didn't shoot well with my cast bullets either. Using Unique to get about 900 ft./sec. in both guns. May get 3 or 4 in less than 2 in. and 2 bad fliers or next group may be 4 to 6 in. with nothing close together. At 7 yds. guns shoot into one hole. Thought it might be me, but I let a buddy who is an excellent shot - very slightly better but still not good. Could it be a leaded barrel - I have never really given the bores a good cleaning. What do you guys suggest to get nice consistant sub 2 inch groups?

[9.3X62AL]

A couple items occur to me here. Have you measured the throat or groove diameters of your revolver yet? There can be anomalies between the dimensional relationships of the gun itself and of the boolits being fed to the gun. My Redhawk's throats run about .4295"-.430", while its grooves measure .429". My M-624 has similar specs. I shoot .431" boolits from both revolvers with pretty decent results downrange if I do my part.

In production revolvers, 2" groups at 25 yards is a fairly rigorous standard. If the flyers can be isolated to one or two particular charge holes, there could be an answer to the flier question there. In The Old Days when wheelguns were pre-eminent in target shooting, competitors usually fired groups from one charge hole at a time in order to eliminate "bad holes", if there was one--and there often was.

Also--just like a rifle barrel--if there have been jacketed bullets fired through the wheelgun, MAKE SURE that ALL the red stuff has been removed from the throats and barrel interior. It will come out green, actually--giving evidence that copper/gilding metal has done its evil work. Copper fouling will also set up lead fouling--so once the lead is out, use some copper remover to verify that ALL metal fouling has been removed.

Good luck with this project, sir. The 44 Magnum and 44 Special are among the most intrinsically accurate revolvers calibers ever developed, so if you're having problems--there is likely a fix pending that will cause them to disappear.

[Bass Ackward]

I cannot get consistant groups at 25 Yds. from a rest with my Redhawk and my S & W 44 Sp. Am now using store bought Keith type bullets - 250's in the 44 Mag. and 215's in the Sp. Guns didn't shoot well with my cast bullets either. Using Unique to get about 900 ft./sec. in both guns. May get 3 or 4 in less than 2 in. and 2 bad fliers or next group may be 4 to 6 in. with nothing close together. At 7 yds. guns shoot into one hole. Thought it might be me, but I let a buddy who is an excellent shot - very slightly better but still not good. Could it be a leaded barrel - I have never really given the bores a good cleaning. What do you guys suggest to get nice consistant sub 2 inch groups?



Guy.

Your problem could be from one or several causes. Kinda hard to make a diagnosis from here. But the inconsistency problem is ignition. Look to your loading practices and your dies. You need good case grip and crimp. Even more if your bullets are smaller in diameter. Simple test is to try a magnum primer. Forget group size, does it then go consistent. If so, then go back to regular primers and find out why.

Regardless of what actions you take first, you need a systematic approach. Write down the steps so you can keep track of what ground you have covered.

[44man]

Bass has the answer! If your boolit is the right diameter for your throats, consistant case tension is what you need. RCBS dies were notorious for inconsistant boolit pull. They made almost all of their expanders way to large. One reason I use Hornady dies.
I only question the magnum primer trial. These can blow the boolit from the case before a good powder burn is initiated, having the effect of increasing case volume on the looser fitting boolits. If you have poor case tension, mag primers will make the problem worse. I won't even use those things with 296 in the .44 and .45.

[XPNut]

I also had the same problem. Gun would not group worth a crap! Tried 240's 250's and 300's with no consistant groups what so ever. Untill I changed powders and O.A.L. I'm now using 2400 powder and seating my bullets out to the end of the chambers. Accuracy is well under 2" @ 50 yards!

[nevada duke]

GuyG, you have received good advice from everyone above. You did write that you were trying to obtain accuracy at the 900 fps level. I can only add that the very best powder that I have used in the large and mostly empty reduced load revolver cartridges is Green Dot from Alliant, formally Hercules. I discovered Green Dot by accident after inheriting 3 lbs, so I had to try it. Shot some loads over a friends chronograph and was amazed. It is good up to about 900 fps, after that I go to W296 or H110. As mentioned above, you may have other issues with groove diameters, bore diameters, and store bought boolits. Stick with it, lead boolits are good things.

Best regards from Nevada duke

[mike in co]

OK.....I GOT NO IDEA ON HOW TO MAKE A 44 REM MAG SHOOT AT 900FPS WITH A 250 OR 215.
if i wanted that weight with that velocity..i shoot a 45acp !

i can make a 265 to 280 shoot under 1 at 25yds at 1340 to 1100.....

like they say...gotta fit the gun...the chambers. lubed for the velocity....tension for the powder/primer.....correct powder for the velocity.

consistant hold,

[Char-Gar]

I have always been the guy who first noticed the elephant in the room and pointed it out, so let me make a few comments on the subject at hand.

2" or sub-2" 25 yards groups is about all the accuracy a factory Ruger or Smith can produce. That can be shaved a mite, but it will probably take a re-crowning of the barrel, some attention to the cyinder and barrel throats. Also the loading has to be right.

In other words, you goals and expections have set the bar fairly high for real world shooting.

shooting a handgun well is also significantly harder than a rifle. The grip on the handgun, position of the hand, sight alignment and trigger control must be right. It takes lots of practice and some time to master the handgun. It also might require some coaching at times.

Shooting a hangun off a rest also has it's issues. A rest is not a rest and often times, the rest itself can induce problems in shooting.

Thanks for taking the time to read this...

[slughammer]

First, I have to ask which S&W 44 special you are using? Lots of interest here on the board for them.

With the burning rate of Unique and 25 yard distance I would think that your grouping problems have little to do with case tension. Perhaps at longer ranges and with magnum powders, but at 25 yards with a fast powder inconsistent case tension will still group well.

When shooting 25 yard hand gun from a rest, the things I am trying to accomplish are to test loads and zero sights. I want a technique that will deliver the same POI as when I'm going to be shooting the gun free handed. What I've found is to have nothing under the grip or magazine. Any varience here with a 4-5" gun is going to throw shots. My rest I've been using for several years consist of a 4x4 block, sand bag and leather wrap. The leather is wrapped around the sand bag to keep the blast from cylinder gap from tearing holes into the bag. The bag goes on top of the 4x4 block. I rest the gun on the bag at the barrel/action junction (or for 1911's on the dust cover). That's my technique, I simply hold the gun in a both hands like I'm shooting free hand and then nest onto the bag.

I've shot literaly hundreds of groups like this.

Only other tip would be to find a target that matches your eyesight. I tried several sizes of black circles and have setteled on 2.5" diameter for open sighted handguns.

[fecmech]

I would not worry about what your groove diameter is but would be more concerned with cyl throat diameter for the lighter 900fps loads. My Ruger Super Blackhawk would shoot cast mag loads great but lighter loads were inaccurate and leaded somewhat. The throats on my gun are .433 -.4335 while the groove is .429. After I "Beagled" my molds and sized to .433 the light loads are well under 2"@25yds and zero leading. I would second a previous posters recommendation for Green Dot powder and also WW231. I use both with the Lee 215 SWC in the 6-7 gr. range with excellent results. IMO 2"@ 25 yds is not a difficult goal to achieve with a Smith or Ruger revolver. Nick

[Nazgul]

I have a S&W 696. Shoot 240gr Lyman cowboy FN and AA#5. They are sized to .430", never slugged the throat because these will group into a cloverleaf at 35 yds.

[44man]

Fecmech, The throats on the Ruger .44's work OK even if a little larger. I have always used .430 boolits, bullets and larger for extremely tight groups as far as 100 yd's. What I have found from years of shooting Rugers is that the twist likes heavier boolits and just shy of max loads of slow powders. I shoot a lot of light loads for fun with 240 to 250 gr boolits and fast powders but the accuracy will not equal the heavy boolits. Of course, these loads are for close range so it doesn't matter much.

[fecmech]

44man--I agree, mine worked fine with 429421@1300fps. Groups at 50yds were in the 2.5" range and I shot silhouette with it in the early days of the game and managed to shoot in the low 30's. I'm guessing that kicking the bullet in the butt with about 35k psi did the sizing job for me in the throats. As I said in the previous post light loads did not shoot well and leaded badly no matter what lube was used. After "Beagling" the mold and sizing to .433 I can consistantly stay under 3"at 50yds with the Lee 215 swc and 7grs. of 231. I've gotten to the point where I don't like shooting full power .44 mags, for me thats not fun anymore. That knocks out heavy bullets in the .44. For long range magnum shooting my favorite is 358429@about 1200fps. Just enough recoil to make it fun but not uncomfortable. Nick

[mag_01]

[smilie=s: 44 Mag. love it---have had good accuracy with cast in my younger yrs. Used a 255 swc with Herco and 2400 both shot well they where hot loads (so no load info.) Its seems if u drive them hard and do ur part they perform well--I use to shoot 3 shot groups because u seem to waste the last 2 of 5 anyway----have shot off hand groups less than an inch at 25 yds. ---have never had luck with light loads in 44 Mag.---Hurt my hand about 8 yrs. ago with a load a little stronger than Elmer Kieth heavy loads. Still bothers me today----Mod. 29 8 3/8ths rubber grips---- Sry to say today at 70 I only see blurs and no longer shoot well. ---255swc where sized 430 and hard WW and babbit with Felix lube---good luck----Mag

[44man]

I find that shooting the .44 now is like going to a .38. I have been shooting the .475 so much with heavy loads that the .44 is tame. It is amazing how pleasant the .44 can become. The only gun that was giving me heavy recoil was my .45 Vaquero with 335 gr LBT's and 21.5 grs of 296. This thing hurt my knuckle so I put Pachmayer grips on it. Solved that problem! Tremendous deer load. I think the .45 recoils much harder then the .475 because it is so light. Before I changed grips, six shots was all I wanted to take. My friends were only good for one or two shots.
Try the bigger guns and when you go back to the .44, you will love it.

[mike in co]

I have always been the guy who first noticed the elephant in the room and pointed it out, so let me make a few comments on the subject at hand.

2" or sub-2" 25 yards groups is about all the accuracy a factory Ruger or Smith can produce. That can be shaved a mite, but it will probably take a re-crowning of the barrel, some attention to the cyinder and barrel throats. Also the loading has to be right.

In other words, you goals and expections have set the bar fairly high for real world shooting.

shooting a handgun well is also significantly harder than a rifle. The grip on the handgun, position of the hand, sight alignment and trigger control must be right. It takes lots of practice and some time to master the handgun. It also might require some coaching at times.

Shooting a hangun off a rest also has it's issues. A rest is not a rest and often times, the rest itself can induce problems in shooting.

Thanks for taking the time to read this...

if i could only get 2-2.5 inches with a gun at 25yds i'd give up shooting!
i must take exception to your statement.
as a new caster, using info handed me by shooters.com cast group( that would be the guys here), my first loads with little development were sub 1" at 25 yds.... i finished at 5/8" at 25 yds.....( my first revolver at that...a 44 rem mag super redhawk!).. no triger work, no recrown, just load development and lots of encouragement from the peanut gallery !
the rest of your statement has merit......

[waksupi]

I've got to go with Mike on this one. My old Redhawk was very accurate, and I made a kill on an antelope WAAAAY out there once, and several more, along with deer, at barrel stretching distances. I can't say as how I ever shot it for a group at any range back at that time. I just shot thousands of rounds, and knew it would work, if I did my part.