Weird brass deformity 223

[BlackRifleShooter]

Hey guys, This is clipped from another board. Really weird brass deformity. Its a Remington UMC after being fired from a (EDIT not a RRA it was a Double Star) M4 Carbine. I am thinking the there was something wrong with the chamber reamer as it looks like the case neck and mouth tried to fire form to an odd shaped chamber cut.
http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii70/Emptyinmymag/Messedupbrass.jpg

What do yall think?

[GabbyM]

humm.. I wonder if a .223 will fit in a 6.8mm chamber cause that's what it looks like.

[mike in co]

impossible for any std reamer to have cut that chamber. the neck shoulder is smaller than the neck throat.

sounds more like an attempt to bad mouth rock river arms.

chambers are typically roughed with a drill , machined or rougher(reamer).

then semi and/or finished reamed, some less a throat, but not less a neck.

the distinctive angle from shoulder to end if case appears to be a cut angle.

the rough end of the neck looks like powder fouling in the chamber...but does not explain the base of the neckto end of neck angle.

something allowed the entire body, shoulder and neck dia to stay correct, but allow the section forward of the neck/shoulder to expand in a fixed angle...no random curve........sorry this is no standard, normal gun....no reamer in a gun manufactures inventory will do this.

even a throater leaves the neck alone,


sorry very suspisious....

mike in co

[BlackRifleShooter]

impossible for any std reamer to have cut that chamber. the neck shoulder is smaller than the neck throat.

sounds more like an attempt to bad mouth rock river arms.

chambers are typically roughed with a drill , machined or rougher(reamer).

then semi and/or finished reamed, some less a throat, but not less a neck.

the distinctive angle from shoulder to end if case appears to be a cut angle.

the rough end of the neck looks like powder fouling in the chamber...but does not explain the base of the neckto end of neck angle.

something allowed the entire body, shoulder and neck dia to stay correct, but allow the section forward of the neck/shoulder to expand in a fixed angle...no random curve........sorry this is no standard, normal gun....no reamer in a gun manufactures inventory will do this.

even a throater leaves the neck alone,


sorry very suspisious....

mike in co

It WAS NOT ROCK RIVER ARMS it was a DOUBLE STAR M4 I editted in the original, but I will delete the RRA just to avoid confusion.

Oh and Mike no need to appologize I was talking to my Dad Dale CLawson on this board and we both wondered if it wasnt a fake.

[BlackRifleShooter]

Would it be possible to get something like this to happen? A 6.8 SPC barrel blank accidentally chambered to 5.56? The OP in the thread on the other site did not mention anything about accuracy and he is a first time AR builder so I dont know what his expertise is. He may over look something like that?

[jhrosier]

...What do yall think?

The case was not fired in any chamber.

The neck tapers the wrong way and could not have been extracted from a chamber of that shape.
If it had been fired in a chamber with a grossly oversized neck, the whole neck would have expanded (or split.)

It is most likely either a fake or someone's attempt to enlarge the neck with a tapered expander plug.

Jack

[jjamna]

The case was not fired in any chamber.

The neck tapers the wrong way and could not have been extracted from a chamber of that shape.
If it had been fired in a chamber with a grossly oversized neck, the whole neck would have expanded (or split.)

It is most likely either a fake or someone's attempt to enlarge the neck with a tapered expander plug.

Jack

I am with Jack on this one

[Jim]

I'm in line behind Jack.

[leftiye]

If it had been fired it would have blown out everywhere it wasn't supported. If the chamber was that shape it would NEVER have been that shape after they got it out of the chamber. At the very least the neck would have been sized down to the size ahead of the shoulder. More likely, it would have looked like the other case in the picture, or have had to be demolished to get it out. Looks to me like someone pushed a cone shaped expander into the case mouth.

[xyrth]

i wonder what a .223 round would look like fired in a 7tcu or something of the like?

[Jon K]

Looks like someone tried to form it from 223-7TCU without annealling first, and used a full length die instead of a form die(too sharp of an angle, form die uses a long taper).

Jon

[Jon K]

Top is form die expander
Lower is FL die expander
Also brass partially formed from FL die look familiar?
Also a 22-30 expander makes a more radical taper.
Both are RCBS

Jon

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l101/Jon_K_2006/DSC_0001-17.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l101/Jon_K_2006/DSC_0002-17.jpg

[Echo]

It's a fake...

[Cap'n Morgan]

Looks like the case either got tangled up during ejection/closing of the bolt, or, it could be the result of the bolt opening with too much remaining pressure in the barrel. Once the case neck has cleared the chamber neck, the pressure would bell the mouth outward. The rear of the neck was not affected, since it's supported by the shoulders of the case

[utk]

Two new calibers, .308 Forward Rim and .357-30 cal

[Scrounger]

i wonder what a .223 round would look like fired in a 7tcu or something of the like?

It would look like a 7 TCU case, that is one way to form brass for the 7 TCU, although usually a fairly light load, sometimes with no bullet, is used instead of a fully loaded .223 round. But it would work.

[DLCTEX]

Blackrifle shooter called me and asked my opinion last night. It appears to be a fake as there is no way it could have been extracted if formed in a chamber of that shape. In my own experience of firing a too small case in rifles, the case is always elarged over all the unsupported length. The taper is uniform in shape, a cone.If the case had been partially ejected while pressure remained, the case would be swelled where it was unsupported by the chamber. If I am on the jury, I'm holding out for conviction on fraud charges. DALE

[bruce drake]

Nice collapsed shoulder on the 308. And I actually think the 30-357 might be a fun toy to play around in a single shot rifle like a H&R.

Bruce

[BlackRifleShooter]

Here is a pic of some more pieces of brass the guy is saying is from the same sesession.

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii70/Emptyinmymag/badbrass.jpg

only 1 is really showing the flared case mouth. The torn up case mouths on the other cases are from getting crushed against the bolt and the barrel extension.

[oneokie]

Going to call a BS alert on this one.

In the pic in post 19, the 2 cases on the left and the one on the right were fed from the mag without a bullet or boolit seated in the case.

The case with the tapered neck was expanded with something similar to what is shown in post # 12, then placed in the chamber and the bolt released. Bolt hitting the head of the case drove the case forward enough to cause the inward taper.

[hyoder]

Whoever made this up is as full of "dressing" as a Christmas turkey.

[mike in co]

you want to see a deformed case...i have a 223 fired in a 7.62x39 chamber...pretty unique.

( did some measuring on the fired case....maybe a 6.8 chamber as the blown out neck is not large enough for a 30 cal. something approx the same length as the 220 russian case. yes the 223 did not fully chamber, split the case 0.36 from the base to 1.025 from the base. best i can tell 0.175 did not chamber, yet this rifle still fired the round. the neck was too long for the chamber it was fired in and it copied the neck/throat....luckily it was a small enough bullet(224) that it still released...)

[Cap'n Morgan]

If the case had been partially ejected while pressure remained, the case would be swelled where it was unsupported by the chamber.

The case is thinner and more soft in the neck area. The body is only slightly tapered, even with a partially extracted case it wouldn't expand much (judging from the pics, the body *did* expand) also there seems to be traces of soot on the necks. Too slow burning powder perhaps? The pressure would rise too little, and too late. This could explain the mangled edge; The case didn't extract with enough force to be thrown completely clear of the ejection opening before the bolt closed again.

I can't think of any good reason why anybody would fake a thing like this.
like Sherlock Holmes said: "When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." ;-)

[nighthunter]

I have had similar happenings. Mine were when I had my 30 caliber expanding die set for .308 Win. or 30/30 Win and ran a 30-06 case into the die. It bells the mouth of the case real pretty like the one in the picture. I do not believe that can happen when fireing a cartridge. Something would happen to the case head bsides the mouth of the case. Someone is trying to jerk some chains with that picture. Someone is bound to believe it no matter what we say here.

Nighthunter

[Doc Highwall]

The only way I could see this happening in a home build AR is the gas port was too far back, or that with too slow burning of a powder the port pressure was so great causing the bolt to come back with a lot of force and the pressure in the barrel had not dropped to a safe level, causing the neck to expand as it was being extracted. In a M-14 or M1 you should not use too heavy of a bullet (190gr and heaver) and a powder slower then say IMR 4320 as this causes the bolt to come back with such force that it bends the op rod and throws the cases violently out of the gun.

[missionary5155]

Hey guys, This is clipped from another board. Really weird brass deformity. Its a Remington UMC after being fired from a (EDIT not a RRA it was a Double Star) M4 Carbine. I am thinking the there was something wrong with the chamber reamer as it looks like the case neck and mouth tried to fire form to an odd shaped chamber cut.
http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii70/Emptyinmymag/Messedupbrass.jpg

What do yall think?

Looks just like what a .30 caliber resizer would do to a .223 case .

[BlackRifleShooter]

Going to call a BS alert on this one.

In the pic in post 19, the 2 cases on the left and the one on the right were fed from the mag without a bullet or boolit seated in the case.

The case with the tapered neck was expanded with something similar to what is shown in post # 12, then placed in the chamber and the bolt released. Bolt hitting the head of the case drove the case forward enough to cause the inward taper.

You can get crushed cases like this in a legitimate way. If the fired cases extracts and does not eject, you get a double feed looking jam with the fired case and the new live round being loaded.

[Boerrancher]

Got to go with Oneokie on this one. There is no, I STRESS the word NO possible way that any of those cases could have been fired in a rifle, extracted and come out looking like that. Unless they were magically removed from the chamber by Harry Houdini, and that would still not explain how the chamber got cut that way. I have cut a few bad chambers in my day, by letting the reamer chatter, or letting a chip get between the reamer and the chamber, but there is no way to cut a chamber that will do that. Those rounds were damaged out side of the rifle on a loading bench. Why someone would do that and post it as them being fired I will never know. I guess some people think they have to be special or something.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[mike in co]

blackrifle shooter,
take your post and out data back to the crime scene and call bs.

it aint happening in an ar........none of the partial extract/then blow up the neck is gonna happen.

no way no time.......there is nothing holding the bolt in a partial open position to allow enough pressure to blow up only the neck at such a disticnt angle. normal port pressure is only around 16000 psi( at the port) once the bolt is open everything drops rapidly.....

notice the other cases have some soot on the necks and the funny one does not.

simply a damaged case driven into the wrong sizer...

i have no idea why someone is trying to claim it is "as fired"...but it just aint so.


out

mike in co
aka
ar10ar15man.......( maybe that is a clue)

[mike in co]

[QUOTE=Cap'n Morgan;384997]The case is thinner and more soft in the neck area. The body is only slightly tapered, even with a partially extracted case it wouldn't expand much (judging from the pics, the body *did* expand) also there seems to be traces of soot on the necks. Too slow burning powder perhaps? The pressure would rise too little, and too late. This could explain the mangled edge; The case didn't extract with enough force to be thrown completely clear of the ejection opening before the bolt closed again.

QUOTE]


not...that is a body ding from extraction


i am in the brass business..in the middle of sorting over 20,000 pcs if brass ...not an uncommon ding.

even the necks of the other brass is not common.

all a hoax

mike in co

[BlackRifleShooter]

blackrifle shooter,
take your post and out data back to the crime scene and call bs.

it aint happening in an ar........none of the partial extract/then blow up the neck is gonna happen.

no way no time.......there is nothing holding the bolt in a partial open position to allow enough pressure to blow up only the neck at such a disticnt angle. normal port pressure is only around 16000 psi( at the port) once the bolt is open everything drops rapidly.....

notice the other cases have some soot on the necks and the funny one does not.

simply a damaged case driven into the wrong sizer...

i have no idea why someone is trying to claim it is "as fired"...but it just aint so.


out

mike in co
aka
ar10ar15man.......( maybe that is a clue)

Talking to the guy some more he says that case only looks that way on the side facing to the camera. The other side is caved in /crushed. Like the bolt smashed it into the M4 feed cuts. As fas as a ballooned out neck like the pic appears. No that could not have happened and extracted the way we are all looking at it. I have asked the guy for new pics of the suspected cartridge. In my phone conversation with my dad, one of the things I said was that it looked like he had ran it into a 30 cal die, as I had done that before on accident. Now the mauled up cases mouths can happen, in an AR-15. The very first AR-15 I built would extract but not eject due to a weak ejection spring. I had to install a D- Fender to get ejection. I had a few mauled up cases like that from the bolt cramming them into the barrel extension. I find this an interesting topic and I hope that the guy can come through with new pics. If the pics show what he claims to be true, as true I will be surprised.

[BlackRifleShooter]

New series of pics this is supposed to be the same piece of brass

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii70/Emptyinmymag/brass1.jpg

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii70/Emptyinmymag/brass2.jpg

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii70/Emptyinmymag/brass3.jpg

What he says the Jam looked like for this particular piece of brass
http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii70/Emptyinmymag/Brass4.jpg

So what say you?

[oneokie]

Sticking with my original opinion that this is BS.

Transfer the pics to a program that will enlarge them and pay attention to the neck area and case mouth. No soot inside or out.

In #4, the stove pipe, there should be dents where the bolt and receiver made contact with the empty case.

[BlackRifleShooter]

Sticking with my original opinion that this is BS.

Transfer the pics to a program that will enlarge them and pay attention to the neck area and case mouth. No soot inside or out.

In #4, the stove pipe, there should be dents where the bolt and receiver made contact with the empty case.


There are dents on the neck thats why it is squashed and looks like it is bulged, as for the soot I dunno about that one.

[Boerrancher]

There is no dents in the body of the case. IF it were a stove pipe type Jam, there would be a huge dent in the side of the case body, not just the neck and mouth being mashed up. I have had stove pipe jams in both AR's and M-16's. Trust me, from over 20 years of owning ARs , nearly 18 years of packing around an M-16, and over 30 years of reloading experience, Those photos are B.S.

Best Wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[runfiveslittlegirl]

the only to get a jam like that is single feeding it.
and you can't fire them after they are bent like that.