Oversie Cast Bullet in .30-06?

[PBSmith]

I'm considering a 314299 mold for a Springfield Krag, which should work well with the .303 nose on that mold and my slightly oversize bore.

Would like to consider dual purpose on this bullet, mainly in a Sake Finnbear .30-06, whose bore I have not yet slugged but presume is close to spec since it shoots well with .308 jacketed projectiles.

Question: with soft cast in the 314299, am I going to be making a mistake by trying to shoot the slugs in the Sako, or any other modern, good condition .30 caliber rifle whose bore is close to .308"?

I can size the bullet's body to whatever's required but would rather not get into nose sizing.

Is there a potential safety problem with high pressure with the .303 nose? IF not, can I expect any kind of accuracy in 308 bores with the oversize bullet?

Thanks.

[upnorthwis]

A .308 bore is .300. The rifling is .308.

[sghart3578]

I have a Springfield '03 that slugs at .301" X .310". I use the NOE 312299 sized to .312".

I get very light engraving on the nose and it is very accurate.


Steve in N CA

[PBSmith]

Thanks, UpNorth. I overslept.

[PBSmith]

I have a Springfield '03 that slugs at .301" X .310". I use the NOE 312299 sized to .312".

I get very light engraving on the nose and it is very accurate.


Steve in N CA

That's encouraging. Thanks.

[Motor]

I don't think there is reason for concern as far as pressure goes. The military did tests in the WW II era doing all sorts of crazy stuff like 8x57 in 30-06 and much worse and failed to produce a major failure.

Lead is much more forgiving than a jacketed bullet let alone a steel jacketed bullet.

Why not just get a mold that won't give you nose issues. I use the Lee 160gr 2R TL in everything 30 and 30ish caliber.

Motor

[Char-Gar]

You said 30-06 but you also said Krag which is chambered for 30-40. The Krag with the arsenal chamber is a very different critter than a 30-06. No answer will be correct until this is cleared up.

[JMax]

I have a Krag made in 1902 and a Springfield made in 1934 and both like a .311 sized NOE 314-202. I size the same bullet for my 1944 LongBranch No 4 Mk1 5 groove sized to .314.

[Thumbcocker]

My default sizing for .30 caliber is .311

[HangFireW8]

Would like to consider dual purpose on this bullet, mainly in a Sake Finnbear .30-06, whose bore I have not yet slugged but presume is close to spec since it shoots well with .308 jacketed projectiles.

Never assume, especially with the Euro's. I have an FN '06 that is so well made, assumed it was .300x.308. Shot certain jacketed loads great, cast not so much. Finally slugged it, turns out it was .300x.310. Adapted my usual .309" sizing to .311 and it started shooting amazing cast boolit groups.


Question: with soft cast in the 314299, am I going to be making a mistake by trying to shoot the slugs in the Sako, or any other modern, good condition .30 caliber rifle whose bore is close to .308"?

I can size the bullet's body to whatever's required but would rather not get into nose sizing.

Is there a potential safety problem with high pressure with the .303 nose? IF not, can I expect any kind of accuracy in 308 bores with the oversize bullet?
As Motor stated, swaging lead down is not very pressure intensive. It does raise pressures a bit, but nothing like jacketed does. So if a load is already on the edge of Max, it might push it over. But if it's a middle of the road load, probably not.

But there is one circumstance that could be an issue. If you use gas check boolits and size to .314", and the rifle has a tight chamber neck, and maybe you have some thick brass, you could get a condition where the brass cannot expand to release the boolit, and your pressures could really go sky-high. Most factory chambers are more generous, but it could happen.

[runfiverun]

I would wait and see if I got a 314299 or a 308X299 before I got all worked up about bullet diameters.

[lotech]

I've used the Lyman #314299 (and a hollowpointed version) for years in .30-40 Krag (Ruger not Springfield), .308, and .30-06. I size to .311" for everything using ww alloy. I load to no more than about 1,700 fps. Very accurate bullet; no problems whatsoever. As with all cast rifle bullets, I seat to where the bullet is very slightly engraved.

[Larry Gibson]

PBSmith

Is there a potential safety problem with high pressure with the .303 nose? IF not, can I expect any kind of accuracy in 308 bores with the oversize bullet?

There is not a pressure problem with the .303 nose, especially if you work up a load as we're supposed to. The potential problem with the Sako is a matter of chambering. If the Sako has a .300 bore at the leade (lands where the throat ends) the .303 nose will not enter easily. You may find chambering very difficult and the bullet may get pushed back into the case. Or the bullet may be stuck in the throat and if you try to unchamber the loaded round the bullet may be pulled out of the case still stuck in the throat.

If the bullet nose does fit into the bore then size the drive bands and GC at .311. I've shot many 314299s out of various '06 and .308s that the nose fit into the bore allowing chambering sized that way. With the drive bands sized at .311 they shot very well. I've also sized the nose of 314299s to .300 or .301 to "fit" along with the drive bands and GC sized at .311 and those also shot very well though not as good as a 311299 which fit w/o all the sizing.

In the Sako rifle, if capable of moa +/- accuracy with quality jacketed loads, I would expect such a sized down 314299 cast of a good alloy, lubed with a good lube such as Lar's 2500+ or NRA 50/50 lube and loaded over 4895 with a Dacron filler to shot into 2 moa +/-.....maybe better.

[Outpost75]

IIRC the European CIP .30-'06 chamber is very similar to the SAAMI sporting chamber or the original government chamber used on the M1903 Springfield before WW2. If the bore and groove diameters are at minimum tolerance and the bore is essentially new and unworn, the .303" diameter forepart on the nose may impinge against the rifling. If the engraving is light and does not prevent rounds from chambering, requiring only moderate "feel" upon bolt closure, this should be OK. It may be necessary to seat bullets a bit deeper to avoid having to use excessive force in closing the bolt.

Light engraving of the forepart, which does NOT result in either the bullet telescoping deeper into the case, or in the cartridge de-bulleting upon extracting an unfired round (spilling powder in the action and leaving the bore obstructed!) does no harm. The best thing is to assemble a dummy cartridge, chamber it and extract it, and examine the bullet.

A combination which fits like this can be very accurate and does not cause excessive pressure in normal loads.

210917

[Wayne Smith]

And the issue of loading the 30-40 Krag with the same boolit is the same, just that the loads need to be substantially reduced, as I assume you know.

[Char-Gar]

Shooting cast bullets in the Krag rifle requires different considerations than a 30-06 military or commercial. The military Krag chamber has a very long and quite large throat. For best accuracy bullets should be .312 or even larger if the round will chamber. I use .313 in my Krags. It is not likely the .303 nose will give you any negative issues. Just seat the bullet our as long as possible so the round will function through the magazine with ease. Even so, the bullet will probably has a jump before it engages the rifling.

The 30-40 and the 308 Winchester cases has the same powder capacity. 308 Win. cast bullet data can be used in the 30-40, but not jacketed bullet data. The Krag action is quite weak with only one bolt lug and the edge of the receiver acting as a safety lug and brittle to boot. 308 Win. pressure loads will take the Krag apart.

[earlmck]

Note what HangFire says: you are not going to get any pressure problems because of larger cast boolet diameter until you hit that point where the larger diameter boolet causes the case neck to be large enough that there is insufficient expansion room in the neck portion of the chamber to allow the case to release the boolet nicely. At that point you can get some exciting pressures. (Yes, voice of experience here).

[paul edward]

I have used that bullet (from an old 311299 mold) in both 30/06 and 308 Winchester with 34 grains of H335. This is an accurate plinking load in my 1903 Springfield MkI.

With a soft cast bullet and gas check, loaded to modest velocities, this bullet should work in your Sako. Try loading a small batch and testing at your range for accuracy and leading. Slower powders will work well in the 30/06.

I bought this mold originally for 303 British and 7.65x53 but it also works in 7.7x58, 7.62x54R as well as most 30 calibers.

[PBSmith]

Thanks to all for your responses. I ordered the NOE version of 311299 and will be curious to discover what it drops. This is primarily for the Krag, but I'll do as Outpost suggests and assemble dummy rounds, for the Krag as well as the Sako.

Appreciate your sharing of expertise.

PBSmith

[Wayne Smith]

I'm guessing you would have been better off with the 314, you can size down - especially after lubing, but you really can't size up without special equipment (swaging).

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

SNIP...

I ordered the NOE version of 311299 and will be curious to discover what it drops.
I've had (and sold) the NOE 316299 and I still have the NOE 311299
The 316 was bought for a Krag which had a large Groove Dia of .3145
I figured I could size a .316 to .315 and be golden, But the boolit wouldn't fit in the chamber (the nose too large), the boolit's nose was .3065 :shock:

The way NOE makes those same style molds with .002 different in size, also makes a boolit with a larger nose. I wasn't aware of that, when I bought the 316 mold.
...btw, that .316 mold dropped a .3175 boolit :shock:

My NOE 311299 drops a boolit that measures .3125 and the nose is .3030

while I've never owned a NOE 314299, I's suspect it to drop a .315 boolit with a .305 nose, which probably would have been too large for your Krag.

Take everything I just said with a grain of salt, as we all have our own technique using our own alloy, and results can surely vary. I own several NOE molds and nearly all of them cast a boolit about .001 larger (sometimes .002) than advertised, I suspect that is due to my technique. I cast with a 94-3-3 alloy for rifle boolits and tend to cast with the alloy as cool as possible, usually around 650º or 660º and cast fast enough to NOT have shiney boolits, but NOT heavily frosted, just a dull grey in color.

I hope some of the info I shared will help you out.

[PBSmith]

I'm guessing you would have been better off with the 314, you can size down - especially after lubing, but you really can't size up without special equipment (swaging).

Fogged again. That WAS a 314299 that I ordered. Thanks.

[PBSmith]

I've had (and sold) the NOE 316299 and I still have the NOE 311299
The 316 was bought for a Krag which had a large Groove Dia of .3145
I figured I could size a .316 to .315 and be golden, But the boolit wouldn't fit in the chamber (the nose too large), the boolit's nose was .3065 :shock:

The way NOE makes those same style molds with .002 different in size, also makes a boolit with a larger nose. I wasn't aware of that, when I bought the 316 mold.
...btw, that .316 mold dropped a .3175 boolit :shock:

My NOE 311299 drops a boolit that measures .3125 and the nose is .3030

while I've never owned a NOE 314299, I's suspect it to drop a .315 boolit with a .305 nose, which probably would have been too large for your Krag.

Take everything I just said with a grain of salt, as we all have our own technique using our own alloy, and results can surely vary. I own several NOE molds and nearly all of them cast a boolit about .001 larger (sometimes .002) than advertised, I suspect that is due to my technique. I cast with a 94-3-3 alloy for rifle boolits and tend to cast with the alloy as cool as possible, usually around 650º or 660º and cast fast enough to NOT have shiney boolits, but NOT heavily frosted, just a dull grey in color.

I hope some of the info I shared will help you out.

Thank you Jon. Yes, very helpful info. It would have been a good idea of me to ask about this before I ordered the mold. I'll be casting in something softer than Lyman #2 (NOE spec alloy), so the diameters might run ?????

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Maybe you will be able to answer that yourself after you read the following:

Some time back, another member (243winxb) posted this info from Redding's website.
http://www.redding-reloading.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=88:bullet-moulds-charts


Bullet Sizes & Weights – How to Vary Them

The bullet diameters and weights presented in this list
are based on the use of Taracorp’s Lawrence Magnum
bullet alloy (2% tin, 6% antimony, 1/4% arsenic,
91.75% lead).
see the website for the lists/charts of Saeco's bullets

Bullet diameters and weights will vary considerably
depending on the lead casting alloy used. This variation
can be as much as 1/2% on the diameter, and 8% on
the weight among the most commonly used casting
alloys. For example, a .358-158 grain bullet might
show a diameter variation of .002", and a 13 grain difference
in weight.

Of the most commonly used alloys, wheel weights (.5%
tin, 4% antimony, 95% lead) will produce bullets having
the smallest diameter and heaviest weight, with
such bullets running approximately .3% smaller in
diameter and 3% heavier than bullets cast with
Taracorp's metal. Linotype will produce bullets with the
largest diameter and lightest weights. This alloy will
produce bullets approximately 1/10% larger and 3%
lighter than Taracorp. Other alloys of tin and antimony,
with antimony content above 5%, will produce bullets
with diameters and weights falling between those cast
from wheel weights and linotype.

Alloys containing little or no antimony will cast considerably
smaller than wheel weights and in some cases
will produce bullets too small for adequate sizing.
Within the limitations given above, the weight and
diameter of a cast bullet can be adjusted by varying the
alloy’s antimony content.

The size and weight of bullets of a given alloy will also
vary according to casting temperature. Higher temperatures
will result in greater shrinkage as the bullet
cools, thereby producing a slightly smaller and lighter
bullet than one cast of the same alloy at a lower temperature.

[PBSmith]

Again, thanks for that good information. I tend to cast hot, low antimony. - maybe hope here even if the 314 NOE is oversize.

In any event, it will be a good learning experience.

Appreciate your time and expertise.
Happy New Year
PBSmith

[Adam20]

I have noe clone of 314299 nose runs .304 and bands are .314 cast with coww ac. It works for my Argie 7.65

[Bigslug]

Seems to me like you're making some odd choices. .314" is likely to be HUGE for that Sako, and I would consider it HUGE for the Krag until I proved otherwise. My .30 cal standard is to size to .309". As has been said, the major concern is how much room you have for your case neck to expand to release the bullet. A pound cast of the chamber will readily determine that.

[PBSmith]

Update:

I bought the NOE 314-210-RN. With soft alloy the mold drops 0.304 x 0.315". In both the Springfield Krag and the .30-06 Sako Finnbear, bullets sized to 0.311-0.312" have given respectable groups with light charges of Red Dot and also with 17.5 grs H4227. I doubt that I can improve on the Sako groups, which in preliminary trials with this bullet is approaching what the rifle will do with jacketed (1.25 MOA). I intend to experiment with larger size diameters for the Krag (per Char-Gar's comment).

At spec COAL of 3.34" in the 06, the 0.304 NOE nose engraves slightly, and I intend to seat slightly deeper for that rifle, as Outpost 75 suggested.

The NOE aluminum blocks are among the best molds that I've tried. Just today I placed an order for another number.

Thanks, all, for your input on this project.
PBSmith