.308 Winchester ADL Rem 700 Varmint

[Wally]

Have been using the Lyman 311672 and Red Dot Powder with CCI-200 primers in a 26" Rem 700 rifle. Using 13.0 grains I am getting ~ 1,700 FPS MV and Std Deviations of 8~9. Accuracy is 2~3" at 200 yards. As I shoot many different rifles with cast bullets, I am trying to get better accuracy. I used a 13.5 grain charge and the groups were in the 2~3 foot range. Apparently this bullet is very velocity sensitive. I am asking for some advice...perhaps using a lighter charge might do the trick..say in intervals of 0.2 grains (12.0/12.2/12.4/12.6/12.8). Or is such a small change in the powder charge futile? The nose of the 311672 is on the small side so it cannot "bore ride" as ot was designed to do. Bullets cast out at .3095" and I size to .309". The rifle is very accurate with jacketed bullets

[MUSTANG]

Wally:

I have the same rifle and have been shooting a variety of cast boolits in it, have not moved out to 200/300 yards with cast in it because I am not achieving 1 to 1.5 MOA in it consistently yet. Your 2 to 3" at 200 years would equate to approximately 1.5 MOA. My best grouping with mine has been with a similar boolit to yours, mine being an RCBS 165Sil boolit.

What is your lead alloy? What gas check are you using? What lube? What diameter does the nose (bore riding section?) measure on your as cast boolits?

[GEOMETRIC]

The .308 is inheritably a very accurate rifle. I once had a Remington 788. I never put a scope on it. I don't recall the load but it had a velocity of 2000 fps or more & the bullet was the Lyman 170 gr. FP designed for the .30-30. I got 1" groups at 100 yds. with it. Wow, I didn't think I could even shoot 1" groups with iron sights.

[GEOMETRIC]

The .308 is inheritably a very accurate rifle. I once had a Remington 788 in .308 Win.. I never put a scope on it. I don't recall the load but it had a velocity of 2000 fps or more & the bullet was the Lyman 170 gr. FP designed for the .30-30. I got 1" groups at 100 yds. with it. Wow, I didn't think I could even shoot 1" groups with iron sights at that range.

[popper]

Get a slower powder, 335, 4895, etc. I assume that is a GC mould design.

[Wally]

Wally:

I have the same rifle and have been shooting a variety of cast boolits in it, have not moved out to 200/300 yards with cast in it because I am not achieving 1 to 1.5 MOA in it consistently yet. Your 2 to 3" at 200 years would equate to approximately 1.5 MOA. My best grouping with mine has been with a similar boolit to yours, mine being an RCBS 165Sil boolit.



What is your lead alloy? What gas check are you using? What lube? What diameter does the nose (bore riding section?) measure on your as cast boolits?

WW metal that I water dunk direct from the mold. GC are of aluminum and fit tightly. Lube is 50% Beeswax/50% wheel bearing grease. Nose diameter .297". Have tried an RCBS 180 SP-GC ..it has a .300" nose diameter and will bore ride, but doesn't offer any improvement in accuracy.

[Wally]

Get a slower powder, 335, 4895, etc. I assume that is a GC mould design.

Yes, the bullet I am using a GC bullet...I prefer to use Red Dot for now.

[waco]

try skipping the water drop, size them to .310"-.311", drop the charge down to 10.5-11gr

[Wally]

Will do as soon as it warms up.

[Jack Stanley]

If you think the bore riding section is to small Erik Ohlen can open it up a little for you . It probably won't be so fussy after that modification .

Jack

[Wally]

If you think the bore riding section is to small Erik Ohlen can open it up a little for you . It probably won't be so fussy after that modification .

Jack

Thank you.

[Texas by God]

The .308 is inheritably a very accurate rifle. I once had a Remington 788. I never put a scope on it. I don't recall the load but it had a velocity of 2000 fps or more & the bullet was the Lyman 170 gr. FP designed for the .30-30. I got 1" groups at 100 yds. with it. Wow, I didn't think I could even shoot 1" groups with iron sights.

I agree the .308 is accurate but the 788 didn't hurt either! I never had one in any caliber that wouldn't drive nails. Sorry for the hijack.

[popper]

I used a 13.5 grain charge and the groups were in the 2~3 foot range. Apparently this bullet is very velocity sensitive. 13gr. is probably the best load (the load) for R.D. What is your alloy? IMHO, powder is too fast for alloy. I did a 3 shot 1 1/2 MOA once @ 200, not bad for a BDC scope sighted @100 on an AR10. But not with a fast powder.

[Yodogsandman]

Did you do a pound slug of your chamber? What are your rifles measurements for the throat, bore groove and bore diameter? Your bullets don't fit your rifle. Get a mold that fits your rifle. RCBS makes great molds, if they fit your rifle. Other wise you might need to go the semi custom mold route.

[vzerone]

Wally on changing your powder charges I can tell you this. First I use Unique. You'll find the nodes of accuracy changing with the charge weight. Say you are in the bad area of a node and the charge is rather light. As you go up in small increments you will see your accuracy getting better and better as you proceed. Then it will start to get worse, then repeat itself. So yes changing your charge weights in small increments does often help. I'm talking of 1/10th to 2/10ths a grain change. Notice not a whole grain.

[John Boy]

Yes, the bullet I am using a GC bullet...I prefer to use Red Dot for now.
Change your powder:
150 -156gr Bullet ... N-135 From 31.7 grains to 46.0 grains
165 - 170gr Bullet ... N-550 From 40.7 grains to 48.9 grains
You calculate the charge for the 160gr bullet or your Lyman #4 will identify the powder for best accuracy

[swheeler]

Hum 13 grs 2-3" at 200 and 13.5 grs 2-3 feet at 200 yards. It looks like you found out how much pressure is needed to slump that "skinny" nose with the alloy you are using. If you have a K31 I sure would try that bullet in it, just might be a good fit.

[skeettx]

I use between 20 and 24 grains of 4227, often nose oriented
Here is a 100 yard target with 311465 and 24 grains of 4227
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/MVC-025S13.JPG
Rem 700 BDL VT Special
Mike

[Wally]

I have not done so....pushing a lead slug down the barrel of a rifle is not something that i care do do. I can appreciate what you are saying. Sized to .309" the bullet I am using is tight when introduced into the leade. I have used an RCBS 180 SP-GC and it doesn't offer any better accuracy.



Did you do a pound slug of your chamber? What are your rifles measurements for the throat, bore groove and bore diameter? Your bullets don't fit your rifle. Get a mold that fits your rifle. RCBS makes great molds, if they fit your rifle. Other wise you might need to go the semi custom mold route.

[Wally]

I have used Unique with many other rifle calibers. I switched to Red Dot/Promo when we had the powder drought. You have encouraged me to try small increment changes, for the reasons mentioned: as it would appear that it will help..Thank you!



Wally on changing your powder charges I can tell you this. First I use Unique. You'll find the nodes of accuracy changing with the charge weight. Say you are in the bad area of a node and the charge is rather light. As you go up in small increments you will see your accuracy getting better and better as you proceed. Then it will start to get worse, then repeat itself. So yes changing your charge weights in small increments does often help. I'm talking of 1/10th to 2/10ths a grain change. Notice not a whole grain.

[Wally]

Excellent results.. I guess I best get some 4227 and see if I can do as well!


I use between 20 and 24 grains of 4227, often nose oriented
Here is a 100 yard target with 311465 and 24 grains of 4227
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/MVC-025S13.JPG
Rem 700 BDL VT Special
Mike

[Wally]

Sadly I don't have a K31....


Hum 13 grs 2-3" at 200 and 13.5 grs 2-3 feet at 200 yards. It looks like you found out how much pressure is needed to slump that "skinny" nose with the alloy you are using. If you have a K31 I sure would try that bullet in it, just might be a good fit.

[Wally]

John,

My goal is to improve the accuracy using Red Dot powder, but if that isn't possible, I definitely will use others.


Change your powder:
150 -156gr Bullet ... N-135 From 31.7 grains to 46.0 grains
165 - 170gr Bullet ... N-550 From 40.7 grains to 48.9 grains
You calculate the charge for the 160gr bullet or your Lyman #4 will identify the powder for best accuracy

[Wally]

Tried the 311672 w/ 12.5 of Red Dot in the Rem 700 ADL .308 Winchester at 175 ~200 yards...my goal was to consistently hit soup can targets, and with that I succeeded. Also used a Lee .30 Cal 150 RF-GC with 11.0, 11.5, 12.0 or Red Dot..it did the same. I am most pleased with both bullets. I tried to determine which loading was better with the Lee bullet; the 11.5 grain load was just slightly more accurate. However at such a range and at the 1,500 MV's, the difference in accuracy is quite small.

[Yodogsandman]

I have not done so....pushing a lead slug down the barrel of a rifle is not something that i care do do. I can appreciate what you are saying. Sized to .309" the bullet I am using is tight when introduced into the leade. I have used an RCBS 180 SP-GC and it doesn't offer any better accuracy.

I understand being apprehensive the first time you do it. I was too. I wrapped electrical tape around the metal rod like a candy cane and then fit a gas check onto the end that was going into the barrel.

The very least you could try, without slugging, is to measure the inside case neck of a case that's been fired from your rifle. The boolit should be sized to that diameter size. It's not the right way but, it's quick. Not always accurate, either.

I don't see Red Dot listed for that boolit in the Lyman #4 Cast Bullet Handbook. Your load might develop too much pressure for your boolits hardness and alloy composition. Different powders work best at certain pressures depending on the velocity that you want to shoot at. A fast rifle powder like IMR4227 or IMR 4198 might burn at a lower pressure and work better for 1500 FPS. I'd even try 2400 for 1500 FPS. I never try to use fast pistol powders for over about 1100 FPS in a rifle. If I want 1800 FPS, I might use IMR 4895 or RL7. If I want 2200 FPS, I might go to a slower rifle powder like IMR 4350 or IMR 4831.

[35 shooter]

I understand being apprehensive the first time you do it. I was too. I wrapped electrical tape around the metal rod like a candy cane and then fit a gas check onto the end that was going into the barrel.

The very least you could try, without slugging, is to measure the inside case neck of a case that's been fired from your rifle. The boolit should be sized to that diameter size. It's not the right way but, it's quick. Not always accurate, either.

I don't see Red Dot listed for that boolit in the Lyman #4 Cast Bullet Handbook. Your load might develop too much pressure for your boolits hardness and alloy composition. Different powders work best at certain pressures depending on the velocity that you want to shoot at. A fast rifle powder like IMR4227 or IMR 4198 might burn at a lower pressure and work better for 1500 FPS. I'd even try 2400 for 1500 FPS. I never try to use fast pistol powders for over about 1100 FPS in a rifle. If I want 1800 FPS, I might use IMR 4895 or RL7. If I want 2200 FPS, I might go to a slower rifle powder like IMR 4350 or IMR 4831.
Lots of good cast boolit shooting advice in that post!! IMHO.

[Wally]

I measured the bullets driven trough the barrel....308". I am sizing to .309". The bullets cast out at about .3095~.310". As stated I have had quite satisfactory results with the Lee 150 RF-GC and the Lyman 311672. The Lee bullet tends to be a tad bit more accurate. It does have more bearing surface area. As I am quite satisfied with the Red Dot Loads at 11.5 ~ 12.0 grains. I suppose I could do some laddering at 0.2 grain intervals to tweak the load a bit. Having done so with other calibers I have found the slight differences are quite insignificant.

[Yodogsandman]

I'd be "laddering those Red Dot loads downwards of 12.0gr instead of up.

[Wally]

So is would anyone in this group be pleased if they can plink soup cans at 200 yards with a .308 Win using cast loads? Perhaps I have set the bar too low?

[skeettx]

Works for me, should not be a major issue getting a 3" group at 200 yards (plink)

Wally what has been your success rate with Red Dot? I found it a bit fast burning for 308 cast.

You said in the original post " Using 13.0 grains I am getting ~ 1,700 FPS MV and Std Deviations of 8~9. Accuracy is 2~3" at 200 yards. As I shoot many different rifles with cast bullets, I am trying to get better accuracy."

Mike

[Wally]

Works for me, should not be a major issue getting a 3" group at 200 yards (plink)

Wally what has been your success rate with Red Dot? I found it a bit fast burning for 308 cast.

You said in the original post " Using 13.0 grains I am getting ~ 1,700 FPS MV and Std Deviations of 8~9. Accuracy is 2~3" at 200 yards. As I shoot many different rifles with cast bullets, I am trying to get better accuracy."

Mike

I find that Red Dot is very versatile for cast rifle loads. I used to use Unique but find that Red Dot is even better. I have used it in the .223 Rem, .22-250 Rem, .243 Win, .308 Win, .30-06, 7 mm Rem Mag, 8 mm Rem Mag. 444 Marlin & the .45-70 Gov't. It will not provide the fastest shooting loads: most loads give me MVs at 1,500~1,600 FPS. One thing that I have noticed; with these loads the rifle barrels remain very clean. Also they are not position sensitive. One must be careful not to double charge a case....but that goes for any cast rifle load using any powder.

[Pirate69]

Hey Wally,
Your PM inbox is full and it will not accept anymore. Trying to send you some info.

[Pirate69]

Ran Wally's 13.0 grain Red Dot load through QuickLoad and QL predicted 1,749 fps. Barrel time was 1.665 mS. Did not know Wally's COL so had to estimate for QL.

Looked at the OBT nodes for a 26" barrel and tried to match loads of both Red Dot and 2400 to meet the nodes times. Used 2400 only because I use it. Looks like the chamber pressure can get pretty high with RD fairly quickly.

Red Dot Powder
Node mS, grains, Pressure, velocity
1.864, 10.8, 26,972, 1,590
1.777, 11.7, 30,003, 1,657
1.639, 13.4, 35,971, 1,776
1.553, 14.5, 40,004, 1,850
1.415, 17.1, 50,096, 2,014

2400 Powder
Node mS, grains, Pressure, velocity
1.415 25.5, 39,843, 2,328
1.553, 23.0, 32,326, 2,185
1.635, 21.7, 28,782, 2,108
1.777, 19.8, 24,029, 1,989
1.864, 18.7, 21,499, 1,917
2.001, 17.3, 18,508, 1,822
2.088, 16.5, 16,911, 1,764
2.225, 15.4, 14,864, 1,682
2.313, 14.8, 13,782, 1,636

[Wally]

Hey Wally,
Your PM inbox is full and it will not accept anymore. Trying to send you some info.

Sorry, I trimmed it down as I was over the limit for storage.

[Wally]

Ran Wally's 13.0 grain Red Dot load through QuickLoad and QL predicted 1,749 fps. Barrel time was 1.665 mS. Did not know Wally's COL so had to estimate for QL.

Looked at the OBT nodes for a 26" barrel and tried to match loads of both Red Dot and 2400 to meet the nodes times. Used 2400 only because I use it. Looks like the chamber pressure can get pretty high with RD fairly quickly.

Red Dot Powder
Node mS, grains, Pressure, velocity
1.864, 10.8, 26,972, 1,590
1.777, 11.7, 30,003, 1,657
1.639, 13.4, 35,971, 1,776
1.553, 14.5, 40,004, 1,850
1.415, 17.1, 50,096, 2,014

2400 Powder
Node mS, grains, Pressure, velocity
1.415 25.5, 39,843, 2,328
1.553, 23.0, 32,326, 2,185
1.635, 21.7, 28,782, 2,108
1.777, 19.8, 24,029, 1,989
1.864, 18.7, 21,499, 1,917
2.001, 17.3, 18,508, 1,822
2.088, 16.5, 16,911, 1,764
2.225, 15.4, 14,864, 1,682
2.313, 14.8, 13,782, 1,636

Thank you....COL is 2.672"...

[Wally]

Have tried using less Red Dot powder with the 311672 in the .308 Win. Using 11.5-12.00 grains gives me the best accuracy. I seat the bullet to the bottom edge of the top lube groove and use thicker aluminum GC's to keep them on. Getting 4" groups at 200 yards on a calm day.