Rust Bluing Problems - Spots and streaks in finish after carding

[JWalker]

Hey everybody, I've been reading articles on this forum for a while but just registered. I was planning on posting some of my recent gun refinishing projects as a first post but am having some trouble on the current project.

I am working on bluing a Winchester Mod 70 barrel using a slow rust blue method. Here's the basic method for this project:

-Removed old blue, polished barrel down to 400 grit.
-Degreased by boiling in washing soda solution, then wiping with solvent (paint thinner).
-Applied Brownells Classic Rust Blue Solution diluted with water 1:1.
-Let rust in humidity box until a uniform red coating of rust appears.
-Boiled in distilled water for 10 minutes, then card using 0000 steel wool and clean with solvent.

I am on my 14th (yes 14th!) cycle of this and cannot seem to get a uniform finish. I achieved the color I wanted after 6 or 7 cycles and since have just been trying to get a cycle that comes out without any blemishes. I am having a couple problems. Sometimes I get a uniform color except for a few spots that have streaks that are darker than the rest of the barrel. When I go another rust/boil cycle, these streaks disappear, but sometimes new ones appear in different spots. It almost looks like as if someone took a blue sharpy and drew a line on the barrel. I tried to get some pics but you can't see much of anything in them.

The second problem is that occasionally after carding the finish will be blotchy, even though it was uniform before. After another cycle it will sometimes go away but other blemishes appear. What causes this uneven finish?

This is not my first attempt at rust bluing, I have had successful attempts before, though I am by no means an expert. This method is the same as the previous project I finished, which I had some similar issues, but was able to get it to come out nicely. I don't think it is an issue with metal prep, degreasing, or cleanliness as it has worked for me in the past.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

[Hannibal]

The first question that comes to mind is water quality. I presume you have read the recommendations by Waksupi to use a boiling chamber and stand pipe, thereby steam alone for your rust conversion . . . ? I've not had the opportunity to try this method, but that's what I plan to do when I get 'there'.

Or have I mis-understood and this is a slow-rust brown finish?

Sometimes I wonder if we're not obsessing over details that were not even considered by 'period' rifle makers. (?)

And I'd add that by the 14th cycle, you are FAR past the treatment stage and well into the aesthetics stage. But I presume you are well aware of that. Not trying to be a smart aleck, just pointing out that this is akin to sanding a 'final finish' and re-spraying at this point. And has been for some time now.

[largom]

I would also question your water quality. Might try some distilled water.

[Hannibal]

To the OP - can you post an image or 5?

A picture is worth 1,000 words.

[JWalker]

First, thanks for the quick replies.

I am using distilled water, I use rainwater when I can get it and it seems to work ok too. I've already made the mistake of trying tap water (which is pretty bad where I live) and has seen what can happen.
Hannibal, I have read about the steaming procedure and was planning on trying it on my next project but was hoping to finish this one with the setup I have. Your right though, water quality issues would be a non-issue then.

I know I'm past the point of getting a good protective finish on it, just needs to look ok now. The last 6 or 7 boils have been trying to reach an aesthetic finish I'm happy with. I boiled again and the blotchiness has all but disappeared, but there are still a few darn streaks in it. I took some photos but you just can't really see anything in them. I will try again tomorrow to get some picture worth posting.

[JWalker]

Also, Hannibal, I wonder the same thing. Do you really think back in the day that every smith had all these strict requirements we try to follow for things like metal prep and water quality, and boiling tanks, ect. Sure maybe the factories, but the average gunsmith? Also makes me wonder because the first time I ever tried this I used tap water (in Oklahoma which isn't great either) and it came out beautifully with no problems.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Have you de-greased the steel wool you are using before rubbing the finish? Most steel wool has protective oil on it. This oil can rub off onto your finish and cause streaking.

[Hannibal]

Ok, well, you may be expecting too much. Slow rust bluing is FANTASTIC for preserving steel, but not so good at making hearts go 'pitter-patter.' Savvy?

You might be asking too much of the process. Photographs would help to determine that.

[kens]

My first question is about the 'solvent' wipe.
Example:
if you polish it down to 400 grit, then you BOIL it in DISTILLED water (at that point you have a sterile gun): then you "solvent" wipe it;
then that concerns me that your 'solvent' has dispersed impurities from your rag, your hands, or from your bench.
My main question is about the purity of your wiping rags;
since you posted that you boiled in distilled water, then at that point you are 'sterile';
only after the boiling can you become contaminated, such as the 'solvent' wipes.

[LAGS]

I saw something in your post.
you said you wiped it down with Paint Thinner ?
Paint thinner does have some sort of oil in it, same as steel wool.
I strictly use Acetone for the final Degreasing /Drying and wipe down.
I also use it to clean the steel wool with Acetone before it ever touches the metal on my Gloves.
Also De-grease your carding brush.
Most of my Slow rust bluing is done with Pilkingtons straight out of the bottle.
It has been a while since I have used the Brownell's, and don't remember having to dilute it.
Water Quality is way at the bottom of my list of suspects with your situation, especially since you are using Distilled water.
I suspect some kind of contamination like Oil on your gloves or improper cleaning.
I also always Bead blast or sand blast my metal before I try to do the slow rust bluing.
Slow rust bluing does not like Slick Polished finishes.
It ends up like putting water on Glass
Also, are you Wiping the Bluing on with a Wrung out clean cotton Ball, one pass, and one direction.
Damp, Not Wet
The rust bluing should almost dry on the metal Instantly.
If you wipe it on with too much Liquid on the cotton, and wipe it in with several strokes, you are removing the bluing you already put on from a previous cycle.
Rust Bluing, removes Bluing.
I only had one rifle that started streaking and spotting.
I called the instructor from my Bluing Class from years before, and he asked if I had Bead blasted the metal.
I told him No, I Polished out the metal really nice to try to get a shinier finish.
It was like a Mirror.
After I bead blasted the receiver, problem was solved.
But a 400 grit sandpaper polish where it still is a little rough works too.
90% of my rifles only get 6 cycles of rusting to get a really nice finish.

[Hannibal]

An over-polished finish is most definitely not good. However, the OP said they stopped at 400 grit, which -should- be OK so long as the OP didn't sand on it excessively, resulting in a significantly finer grit abrasive.

The prospect of oil contamination via the solvent is a good one. I've seen people brag about using lighter fluid to degrease before applying Loctite.
Tony Boyer recommends using lighter fluid as a lubricant. Jewell triggers on benchrest rifles. You wanna tell that guy he's full of ****? Go ahead. I'll take his advice.
So. The point being, let's assume petroleum based solvents will leave an oil residue and move forward from there, shall we?

And I suspect Mineral Spirits, AKA paint thinner, is going to leave MUCH more oil contamination than lighter fluid.

Just a thought, OP.

[LAGS]

One thing I learned in the slow rust bluing class but I seem to be the only one who mentions doing it.
On my Last Rusting and Boiling, I do not Dry Card off the metal.
I take light machine oil like 3 in one, and a clean rag, and wipe down all surfaces and leave it WET.
I let it Cure overnight, then the next day, wipe off all the Black Muck with a soft cotton rag.
My finish comes out a little darker, and the oil really protects the finish.
Hay, it works for me.

[waksupi]

A big mistake people make in rust bluing, is in the initial rust process. If you are using a sweat box, and see any signs of condensation or beading on the metal, you are going to get a lousy looking barrel. Too much moisture. Those water beads and streaks will show up in the final product.
Don't wait for a heavy consistent rust over all of the barrel. When I do them, the rust is barely apparent before steaming. It seems counterproductive, but it works. You get a much higher quality smooth bluing job doing it that way. I can run metal through the process around a half dozen times for an excellent blue.

And don't polish past 320 grit.

Boil out times required are 25 minutes. Steaming time, 20 minutes.

This Trapdoor was done with six cycles, steam method.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?303500-Trapdoor-Springfield-rebirth/page2

[JWalker]

I do not degrease the steel wool. I do use a new piece every time though. This is the reason I wipe with solvent after carding. My reasoning is that cleaning after carding will get rid of contamination from the steel wool, as well as any from gloves, workbench, anything else after boiling. It has worked for me in the past. The streaks are there before degreasing so it is possible the steel wool is leaving something, but it would be odd that it would not then wipe off with solvent, as well as how few streaks are actually left. Your right though, it is worth a try to rule out the steel wool as a problem.

[JWalker]

New piece of fresh cotton every time, for solvent and bluing application.

[JWalker]

LAGS: Contamination from the thinner is something I have not thought about. I used it because when I was first learning this process money was tight and that is what I had for other things and that seemed to work. Maybe I was just lucky that first time. I will go get some acetone for my next cycle and degrease the steel wool as well. The streaks appear after carding before wiping with the thinner, but it may impart something that then messes with the subsequent rust and boil. Letting the last cycle "cure" overnight is interesting and something I will have to try.

waksupi: I try to boil as soon as I get a fine red fuzz, however due to time this doesn't always happen. Building a steamer instead of boiling is also on my to do list for the next project.

[LAGS]

@ Jwalker.
You may have got lucky with the Paint thinner on the first ones.
See, Paint thinner has solvents in it that evaporate when left exposed to air.
Those solvents evaporate as you leave the can open.
Then near the end of that can of thinner there will be more of the less volatile solvents , ( The oil Base )
A simple test.
Pour equal amounts in three clean containers say one ounce each of, Paint thinner, Lacquer thinner and Acetone.
Let them sit for a day or two and see which one evaporates first, and which one leaves a residue in the container.

Now, my Steam Cabinet is the Spare Shower .
I am single ,so I can hang my parts in the spare bathroom and turn on the shower till the room gets steamy, then shut down the shower.
That may be changing since my Girlfriend moved in.
Then just let the parts rust overnight.
But don't forget and leave the shower running, or you will get condensation on the metal, and runs in your rust.
Also,
Using Un - Degreased steel wool, you are working that oil on the steel wool INTO your Bluing.
Wiping it off even with solvent like acetone will not get it totally clean.
When I teach someone how to do Slow rust bluing, the first thing I teach them is.
Before you put on your Nitrate or Latex gloves, Scratch Your Nose.
Because every time you put on your gloves, your nose will itch for some reason.
No one thinks about then scratching their nose with their Clean Gloved Hand.
But then you just put Skin Oil on your clean glove.
Same with picking up anything with your gloved hand during your handling of the metal.
I keep a towel dampened with clean Acetone on hand to wipe off my gloves or to set or rest the metal parts against on the bench.

[Stockcarver]

1. No paint solvent. Use acetone.

2. DeOil your steel wool, it is full of oil.

3. Distilled water.

4. Don't touch the metal with your fingers!

5. Why are you diluting the solution with water?

6. Put on a light even coat, do not go back and re apply. Work in one direction, i,e., right to left.

7. Buy the Brownells fine stainless steel wire carding wheel and run it slow. One of my grinders is variable speed, the carding wheel goes on this one. I do not use steel wool for carding, too many problems.

8. Only use the cotton swab once, do not re dip it in the solution. Dip, apply a light coat of solution, throw the swab in the trash, grab another new one.

I live in the damp Pacific Northwest, 2 miles from salt water, and a "rain forest". I just hang the parts on the carport, the atmosphere is perfect for rust bluing.

9. Read and re read the Brownells instructions. Pay attention!

10. Washing soda has oils and fat in it. Buy proper cleaner from Brownells.

11. I pour a small amount of solution in a watch glass or custard cup. Never pour it back in the bottle! Toss the unused amount.

[pietro]

I will go get some acetone for my next cycle and degrease the steel wool as well.





Welcome aboard !

With all due respect, FORGET about a "next" cycle.......... IMO you'll be adding insult to injury with additional applications. :cry:

Whatever's wrong is already in the steel, and all the previous bluing needs be removed with vinegar (?) and the bluing started over from scratch (I would go, using LAGS & stockcarver's tips, above).



In any event, I hope all here have a very HAPPY NEW YEAR ! ! :bigsmyl2:



.

[JWalker]

1. Got some acetone this morning. Will use that from now on.
2. Just deoiled some steel wool.
3 and 4 I have been doing.
5. I read a few people say that to achieve a higher polish finish with rust blue you can dilute the solution on subsequent cycles so that you get less aggressive rusting. Its something I have been experimenting with.
6. Done
7. On my list but the only grinder I have is a homemade one and not variable speed. This will have top wait but hopefully will have it before too much longer.
8. Done
9. Done. Done. and Will do again.
10. Some older texts I have read on bluing suggested washing soda. It is possible that washing soda back in the day was more pure or "clean". I will look into this.
11. Done.

Most of this I try to follow already. I'm in dry West Texas so a rusting cabinet is necessary. This is a good list of reminders though.

[JWalker]

Welcome aboard !

With all due respect, FORGET about a "next" cycle.......... IMO you'll be adding insult to injury with additional applications. :cry:

Whatever's wrong is already in the steel, and all the previous bluing needs be removed with vinegar (?) and the bluing started over from scratch (I would go, using LAGS & stockcarver's tips, above).



In any event, I hope all here have a very HAPPY NEW YEAR ! ! :bigsmyl2:



.

Unfortunately you are probably right. I am going to boil my current cycle and if it does not improve I will begin to remove the bluing and start from scratch.

[CJR]

I've found with black- rust blueing (Belgium Blue or cold blue) that some metals tend to red-rust oxidize more quickly in some areas than in other areas. The blueing process then tends to not black- rust blue those already red- rust oxidized areas to a uniform color. I've used a green scrub pad, wet with the black-rust blueing solution, to gently scrub and break- through the red- rust oxide coating/discolored areas. Initial "carding" has to be vigorous enough to break-through these red-rust oxidized areas so that the black-rust blueing liquid, present in the scrub pad, can start the black- rust bluing process before the metal re-oxidizes to red rust. The various ferrous and ferric oxides, that can form on metal, differ in color.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,

CJR

[JWalker]

Well the last cycle din't work any better. At this point I'm just wasting time and materials. I am going to remove the bluing re-polish and start from scratch, keeping in mind all the suggestions you guys have made. I need to re-think my method. I guess I just got lucky in the past. I will work on building a steamer so that water quality is not an issue. I imagine I can use tap water if I am steaming correct? I will also focus on degreasing and extra-cleanliness along the way. It might be a week or two before I can get back into this project so I will update when I continue. Thanks for all the suggestions. Here are some pictures I tried to take of the streaks though just to ponder.

210780

The streak is the dark mark just left of center.

[JWalker]

210781

Here is some of the uneven finish to the left of the glare. I know its difficult to see.
What I find odd is that it will disappear and reappear in different areas after another boiling, and sometimes the finish is almost perfect except for 1 or 2 streaks in separate areas. Oh well, when at first you don't succeed...take a break... and then try, try, and try again.

Happy New Year!

[LAGS]

Those are streaks from oil.
It is best that you start from scratch as suggested.
I am glad that the others as well as myself can guide you thru this.
For many years I fumbled with doing it on my own ,and relying different processes.
Then I took that one class at a custom rifle shop.
What a difference when they teach you in a real life situation.
I got to learn what to do if something goes wrong, and that not all guns or metal blue the same.
But I have rust blued or Browned guns with everything from Drano, Navel Jelly and even Browned using Vinegar.
So Please heed your instructions that have been provided to you.
We all have to learn somewhere.
This forum is a great place to seek the knowledge that you desire.
You cant get that from some YouTube Video that was made under Perfect conditions.
They never tell you what to look for if something goes wrong, and you cant ask in most cases.
I do gunsmithing as MY hobby, I do not do it for a living.
But I take pride in my work, and am willing to pass my knowledge on to others.
Forget the steam method for NOW.
Learn to walk , before you try to run.
You are HOOKED.
There will be plenty more guns down the line for you to play with.
Been there , Done that.

[rbt50]

I used to blue guns years ago. one of the biggest problem I would run into is getting all the oil off. some time the steel wool will have oil in it and you will have to burn that out of the steel wool.

[Hannibal]

I used to blue guns years ago. one of the biggest problem I would run into is getting all the oil off. some time the steel wool will have oil in it and you will have to burn that out of the steel wool.

How do you burn the oil out without ruining the steel wool?

[Hannibal]

Say LAGS, I've been thinking about browning a rifle. Is the process any different apart from the boiling operation to convert the iron oxide?

[JWalker]

Those are streaks from oil.
It is best that you start from scratch as suggested.
I am glad that the others as well as myself can guide you thru this.
For many years I fumbled with doing it on my own ,and relying different processes.
Then I took that one class at a custom rifle shop.
What a difference when they teach you in a real life situation.
I got to learn what to do if something goes wrong, and that not all guns or metal blue the same.
But I have rust blued or Browned guns with everything from Drano, Navel Jelly and even Browned using Vinegar.
So Please heed your instructions that have been provided to you.
We all have to learn somewhere.
This forum is a great place to seek the knowledge that you desire.
You cant get that from some YouTube Video that was made under Perfect conditions.
They never tell you what to look for if something goes wrong, and you cant ask in most cases.
I do gunsmithing as MY hobby, I do not do it for a living.
But I take pride in my work, and am willing to pass my knowledge on to others.
Forget the steam method for NOW.
Learn to walk , before you try to run.
You are HOOKED.
There will be plenty more guns down the line for you to play with.
Been there , Done that.


When I first started I read ALOT of forums and old gunsmithing texts on the subject to gain as much knowledge. But your right, there is nothing like hands on experience and that is what I am trying to gain now. I appreciate all the help. I figure if I start learning now in 10 or 20 years and a dozen rifles or so I might know a thing or two. I don't plan on being a full time gunsmith but I am HOOKED already as you say and do strive for professional results.

[LAGS]

@ JW.
I too back in 1976 had no intention of being a professional Gunsmith, even though my Grandfather was.
I just wanted to make my guns look and shoot the best they could.
Well that is more than 200 rifles later, and I still have over 40 that I Own and am trying to Restore or build.
I come on this forum to get knowledge that I want, and am able to share things that others need to know.
But who knows, I am close to retirement from my career, and I may hang out my Shingle and do this in my Semi Retirement to make ends meet.
When I took those classes at a local Custom Rifle Shop, the instructor almost didn't let me enroll because he said I knew too much already, ( or he thought I was full of sheep dip saying I had done so many things and had never taken a Gunsmith Class )
But once he saw my work, he was dumbfounded.
But after the classes, My rifles looked so much better, and took far less time to build.
Knowledge is King.
Bank away all you can now, and someday it will pay you back three fold.

[LAGS]

@ JW and others.
Go to Second hand Book Stores.
I go there and buy old Gunsmithing Books for dirt cheap.
They are usually OLD and back from the 50's and 60's But sometimes the OLD methods are Best, or things you can do at home with simple tools or limited materials.

[LAGS]

@ Hannibal.
It has been years since I did a old fashioned Brown Finish.
I use to do them on Muzzle loaders.
I would buff the barrels or parts down till almost shiny.
Then coat them with Vinegar or some other Mild Acid.( Drano, or Navel Jelly)
Then stand it outside in the weather till it started to rust.
Then I would buff the rust off with Cleaned steel wool until all the loose rust came off, but not down to the Bare metal.
Then another coat of acid, and repeat the process several times.
No Boiling or converting involved.
Then when you got the Brown Patina you wanted, you oiled it and you where done.
My Grand father showed me that method back in the 60's when I was just a kid.
He used a shovel in his yard as an example, a New shovel will rust.
But every time you use it , the rust gets buffed down.
Then after years of rusting on its own and getting buffed down from use, the metal gets a Rust Patina that does not rust and eat into the metal any more.
The acid just speeds up the process, and you can control the finish better.
But for most people, this takes too long.
They just want a Instant finish, or a Set it and Forget it Process.
The last one I did was a Mauser 98/22 Turk that I wanted to look old.
I have two more of them and may decide to do one of them in the rust Brown finish again.

[John 242]

210781

Here is some of the uneven finish to the left of the glare. I know its difficult to see.
What I find odd is that it will disappear and reappear in different areas after another boiling, and sometimes the finish is almost perfect except for 1 or 2 streaks in separate areas. Oh well, when at first you don't succeed...take a break... and then try, try, and try again.

Happy New Year!

If I'm not mistaken, that barrel is screwed into the receiver. At least that's what it looks like to me. What looks to be the cylinder of the barrel shows obvious signs of contamination, likely weeping out from the threads.

For rust bluing, the most trouble free method is to remove the barrel from the receiver. If that's not possible, you need to de-grease the heck out of where the barrel screws into the receiver and any other place you parts you couldn't remove. If you don't, you'll get spotting. The same holds true for hinge pins or any other parts with metal to metal contact. These areas trap oil and cause headaches when rust bluing.

It is very difficult to get all of the oil out of the threads with the barrel installed. When converting your red rust to black, the heat from the boiling water causes the oils to weep out of the threads, contaminating your part and possibly the water as well.
I would consider dumping your tank and scrubbing it with Dawn dish soap, rinse it thoroughly with distilled water. Let it dry and spray it down with denatured alcohol.

The best product I've used to remove contamination is Dulite 45 caustic cleaner. Caustic cleaners work very well and are worth the investment if you plan on doing more than one gun; however, they do require the investment of a tank, burner, thermometer, space for the set up, etc. I use a tank of cleaner to clean my steel wool as well as the gun parts I'm working on.
http://www.du-lite.com/dulite_cleaning_compounds.html

Another option is to gently heat where the barrel screws into the receiver with a propane torch. The key word is GENTLY! You want to burn out the oil that's in the threads, not change the heat treat of the steal. Heat causes the oil to weep out, or burn up. This also works for hinge pins on shotguns that always hold contamination and cause spotting. Again, don't overheat the steel. You want to burn the oil out, not heat the metal to the point that you alter heat treat.

After trying to burn out that oil, you'll need to degrease again. If you don't have caustic cleaner, then acetone works well, but I was taught to use denatured alcohol for the final wipe down. The theory is that acetone leaves a slight film. I have used both and have had good results with both, but for problem parts try alcohol and see if it helps.

You may have to repeat the torch method several times until oil stops weeping out from the threads.

With rust bluing ANY contamination will cause problems. Oil on your carding wheel, your steel wool, your gloves, the wire you use to suspend your parts, ANY oil will cause problems. You need to be clinical with your cleanliness.

[Hannibal]

LAGS, thank you. I have a de Haas Chicopee I've been making and if I ever get it done, an olde fashioned brown finish might be just the ticket.

[Walkingwolf]

As probably already said, paint thinner leaves a residue.

[flounderman]

The Mark Lee works fine for me. If you oil the metal, it will turn dark and the spots may disappear.

[LAGS]

@ Hannibal
If you have no yet finished your rifle, then find some steel or an old barrel and try doing the Rust Brown Finish on that first.
You don't want to wait till your rifle is done, then try a new to you process and be disappointed.
The barrel or steel may be sitting for days rusting.
So that can happen while you are still working on the rifle.

[John Boy]

8. Only use the cotton swab once, do not re dip it in the solution. Dip, apply a light coat of solution, throw the swab in the trash, grab another new one.
For swabs - use cotton balls!

[Hannibal]

@ Hannibal
If you have no yet finished your rifle, then find some steel or an old barrel and try doing the Rust Brown Finish on that first.
You don't want to wait till your rifle is done, then try a new to you process and be disappointed.
The barrel or steel may be sitting for days rusting.
So that can happen while you are still working on the rifle.

An excellent suggestion! Thank you.

[JWalker]

If I'm not mistaken, that barrel is screwed into the receiver. At least that's what it looks like to me. What looks to be the cylinder of the barrel shows obvious signs of contamination, likely weeping out from the threads.

For rust bluing, the most trouble free method is to remove the barrel from the receiver. If that's not possible, you need to de-grease the heck out of where the barrel screws into the receiver and any other place you parts you couldn't remove. If you don't, you'll get spotting. The same holds true for hinge pins or any other parts with metal to metal contact. These areas trap oil and cause headaches when rust bluing.

It is very difficult to get all of the oil out of the threads with the barrel installed. When converting your red rust to black, the heat from the boiling water causes the oils to weep out of the threads, contaminating your part and possibly the water as well.
I would consider dumping your tank and scrubbing it with Dawn dish soap, rinse it thoroughly with distilled water. Let it dry and spray it down with denatured alcohol.

The best product I've used to remove contamination is Dulite 45 caustic cleaner. Caustic cleaners work very well and are worth the investment if you plan on doing more than one gun; however, they do require the investment of a tank, burner, thermometer, space for the set up, etc. I use a tank of cleaner to clean my steel wool as well as the gun parts I'm working on.
http://www.du-lite.com/dulite_cleaning_compounds.html

Another option is to gently heat where the barrel screws into the receiver with a propane torch. The key word is GENTLY! You want to burn out the oil that's in the threads, not change the heat treat of the steal. Heat causes the oil to weep out, or burn up. This also works for hinge pins on shotguns that always hold contamination and cause spotting. Again, don't overheat the steel. You want to burn the oil out, not heat the metal to the point that you alter heat treat.

After trying to burn out that oil, you'll need to degrease again. If you don't have caustic cleaner, then acetone works well, but I was taught to use denatured alcohol for the final wipe down. The theory is that acetone leaves a slight film. I have used both and have had good results with both, but for problem parts try alcohol and see if it helps.

You may have to repeat the torch method several times until oil stops weeping out from the threads.

With rust bluing ANY contamination will cause problems. Oil on your carding wheel, your steel wool, your gloves, the wire you use to suspend your parts, ANY oil will cause problems. You need to be clinical with your cleanliness.

You are correct. It is a barreled action. So your point about oil in the threads is a good one. The previous projects have been shotguns so I have been able to do the receiver and barrel separately which is maybe why I didn't have as many problems. I would prefer to remove the barrel but since I have not done this before on a rifle, and do not have an action wrench (yet), I didn't want to get into more than I could chew, with sight alignment and head spacing issues and whatnot. I will be extra careful about degreasing and maybe try your heating idea before the next attempt.

[Hannibal]

@John242 - Good catch! I believe you are exactly right.

[22cf45]

First, once I have had streaks or spots, they have never gone away with subsequent bluing attempts using Pilkingtons or Brownells. The only thing that fixed it was re-polishing and starting all over. However, I have now switched entirely to Laurel Mountains product. It is vastly more forgiving and those problems went away. Degreasing is a little tricky and I have found since I started using Brownells 909 in a boiling solution, those problems ceased. I have polished up to 600 and gotten very nice finishes but it is a lot slower and takes many more applications and boilings but I don't let the rust proceed very much before I boil to maintain the higher polish look.
Phil

[oldred]

Looks as if I am a bit late to the party but one item that gave me fits when I first started rust bluing was using paper towels! Some brands of paper towels may be OK as I have talked with some folks who do use them but I know for a fact that some brands will cause nothing but grief as they tend to dissolve (I suppose anyway) in solvents and leave a residue. I don't know if any paper towels were used here in wiping operations or not unless I missed it but if they have been used to wipe the barrel at any point I would strongly recommend tossing them in favor of cotton.

About grit, this is an area where there can be a lot of disagreement on but folks, including me, tend to want as slick a finish as they can get so they naturally assume that finer paper grit will do that, just that it may take a few more cycles than with a courser grit to get proper coloration. I am not trying to disagree with anyone about anything here, just that this has been my observation for the last 4 or 5 years and a bunch of barrels and receivers rust blued with several preparations, mostly Mark Lee.

240 grit works best for me and I have found that anything finer just makes it harder to get a darker color, I doubt anyone can tell much if any difference in the surface gloss or texture when finer grits are used! Why is this? Well it was explained to me by a worker at a professional shop that by the time proper coloration is achieved all of the sanding marks and bare surface texture is going to be covered completely by a smooth and leveled oxide layer so smoothness at that point is determined by how smooth the successive rusting cycle left the previous one underneath it. His point was that after the first few cycles the sanding texture is no longer a factor with about 240 grit or finer and will no longer affect finish except for coloring depth, which the courser grits will improve! I have gone as fine as 800 grit and the only difference it made was that it made the job harder requiring more cycles plus it made getting good deep coloration VERY difficult along with streaking and light area spots. At this point I personally don't go any finer than 240 or maybe 320 sometimes and it gives me much better and deeper coloration with fewer spotting problems. An example might be the next to last job I did about a month ago, an old Mossberg 12 ga. pump shotgun for a friend that was to be a "pickup truck" utility gun so we used 180 grit to remove some light rusting spots. We weren't trying to make it pretty so we left it with the 180 finish going for durability rather than looks, that darn thing turned out as slick as anything I have done regardless of how fine the grit and had the deepest blue/black coloration I have ever managed to get! To get it really slick took a couple of extra cycles but after we got started it was looking so good I just kept going!

To each his own but I am personally convinced that going beyond 320 grit is simply counterproductive.

[JWalker]

Looks as if I am a bit late to the party but one item that gave me fits when I first started rust bluing was using paper towels! Some brands of paper towels may be OK as I have talked with some folks who do use them but I know for a fact that some brands will cause nothing but grief as they tend to dissolve (I suppose anyway) in solvents and leave a residue. I don't know if any paper towels were used here in wiping operations or not unless I missed it but if they have been used to wipe the barrel at any point I would strongly recommend tossing them in favor of cotton.

About grit, this is an area where there can be a lot of disagreement on but folks, including me, tend to want as slick a finish as they can get so they naturally assume that finer paper grit will do that, just that it may take a few more cycles than with a courser grit to get proper coloration. I am not trying to disagree with anyone about anything here, just that this has been my observation for the last 4 or 5 years and a bunch of barrels and receivers rust blued with several preparations, mostly Mark Lee.

240 grit works best for me and I have found that anything finer just makes it harder to get a darker color, I doubt anyone can tell much if any difference in the surface gloss or texture when finer grits are used! Why is this? Well it was explained to me by a worker at a professional shop that by the time proper coloration is achieved all of the sanding marks and bare surface texture is going to be covered completely by a smooth and leveled oxide layer so smoothness at that point is determined by how smooth the successive rusting cycle left the previous one underneath it. His point was that after the first few cycles the sanding texture is no longer a factor with about 240 grit or finer and will no longer affect finish except for coloring depth, which the courser grits will improve! I have gone as fine as 800 grit and the only difference it made was that it made the job harder requiring more cycles plus it made getting good deep coloration VERY difficult along with streaking and light area spots. At this point I personally don't go any finer than 240 or maybe 320 sometimes and it gives me much better and deeper coloration with fewer spotting problems. An example might be the next to last job I did about a month ago, an old Mossberg 12 ga. pump shotgun for a friend that was to be a "pickup truck" utility gun so we used 180 grit to remove some light rusting spots. We weren't trying to make it pretty so we left it with the 180 finish going for durability rather than looks, that darn thing turned out as slick as anything I have done regardless of how fine the grit and had the deepest blue/black coloration I have ever managed to get! To get it really slick took a couple of extra cycles but after we got started it was looking so good I just kept going!

To each his own but I am personally convinced that going beyond 320 grit is simply counterproductive.

I agree with what you are trying to point out here. I have limited experience as of yet, but i have read in various forums and texts that the way to a higher gloss or deeper looking finish (or to vary the color/finish in general) with slow rust bluing is not in sanding to a finer grit, but more of how you treat the rusting cycles. I have also had a barrel that showed obvious sanding scratches when bare metal (probably something like 220 grit) , and said sanding marks virtually disappeared after several rust/boil cycles.

As for your paper towels. I use cheap toilet paper when I first started rust bluing and it seemed to me that when wiping the bluing I found scratches that were not previously there. I found this hard to believe but not out of the realm that the quality of this toilet paper was so poor that there was grit/dust/something on the paper that would cause these scratches. It may also have been psychological in that the scratches were there before, I just did not notice. I switched to cotton balls and no longer have issues with this, psychological or otherwise. Point is, yes, I have since stopped using paper towels, tp, or any other cheap paper product for cleaning.

[JWalker]

Got a chance to give the bluing another try and about finished up with this project. It came out pretty good, a lot better than the previous attempt. Not perfect, but that just means I can keep improving. Took six cycles using Brownells Classic rust blue, carding with a wire wheel instead of steel wool on the final cycle. Used acetone to degrease instead of thinner, less time in the sweatbox at a lower humidity, and oiled well at the end.
Regarding the linear streaks I was seeing before, I determined they were from my gloves. I was using new gloves every time but it turns out that out of the box they were coated with something that left a film on the metal. When rubbing the metal with steel wool, if I wasn't careful my gloves would rub the metal and the combination of friction and whatever oil was on the gloves would leave a streak. It drove me crazy! but I was able to remedy it by never touching the barrel at all and using a piece of clean flannel between my gloves and the wool. I did not have any more streaks so I suppose it worked. Thanks to everybody for suggestions and encouragement. Below are pics of the bluing itself.212642212643

About the gun in general, this was my grandfathers Winchester Model 70 that I am redoing for my uncle. It was stuck under the couch at the farmhouse when my grandfather passed and not touched for about 15 years and as you can imagine had some rust and pitting. Anyway, heres some before and after pics. Focused on the bluing but gave the stock a little attention as well. Thanks again!

212644
This gives you an idea of the stock condition.

212645
And the rust, mostly on the barrel but some on the receiver.

And after photos.
212646212647

[Dan Cash]

JW, That looks just fine. The blue is the color and texture that I like if it is not the old 1900s S&W or Colt bluing.

[Steven66]

The blue on Mr. Walker's 700 is beautiful and has the look I want to get on a rifle. I was wondering how to apply formula and card the inside surfaces: inside the receiver, down in sear slots, bolt release areas and inside threads such as guard screws and scope base screws? I saw a suggestion on another forum to use taps that had been cleaned with acetone to card threaded holes. I haven't tried it yet (my bluing jobs will probably have to wait till spring), but applying the bluing compound and carding internal surfaces looks like it could go wrong real fast without proper tools and technique.

[JWalker]

This gun will hopefully be used hunting again and not as a display piece so I did not worry about the interior of the receiver and other interior nooks so much when I blued this rifle. The original bluing in these areas was still in good condition so I did not remove it, and therefore did not need to worry about re-bluing it. For the areas I did re-blue I used my carding wheel to get as much as I could, while getting to tight spaces with a wire brush and 0000 steel wool. I really did not put too much effort into these less visible areas until the final carding, in which case patience and attention to detail are the best tools. For the threaded holes I did not remove the original bluing from inside them so again, figured I did not need to reblue them. On the final carding I cleaned all holes out thoroughly with q tips and dental picks to remove any loose debris, oiled along with the rest of the gun, and then removed any excess oil before re-assembling the gun. Getting all the sharp edges and corners of a receiver certainly takes a bit more time and attention than the barrel, but I didn't have too much of a problem with it. I don't think those kinds of spaces should give you much more trouble than the rest of the gun if you just follow good bluing procedure and perhaps have a little more patience than the easier to reach surfaces

[kens]

Nice job there.

[mbops]

@Jwalker, I know it's been years since this thread started.... but shifting spots/streaks could be just finger pressure marks /impression when applying each coat. Unless the barrel is suspended that application is done in one stroke, the same should be let to dry .... then apply next stroke.... If the part is rotated even with gloves before drying... the part held where it didn't dry will get patches...

[Patrick L]

I'm no expert ( but just did that Ithaca 37 thread) but 3 things that stood out from your method were:

1. paint thinner as a degreaser? I would use acetone, evaporates completely. Paint thinner doesn't. Looks like you addressed that.

2. I never diluted Brownells rust blue. Use straight.

3. not degreasing the steel wool. Looks like you've addressed that!

Do you have a drill press? That's what I run a carding wheel on. Nothing wrong with steel wool, but carding wheel smoother IMO

[waksupi]

If you are getting streaks, you are most likely too aggressive in the rusting process. Let the metal oxidize to where you see just a light layer of oxidation, not visible red rust. It seems counter productive, but I get quick results this way. The first couple rounds make you doubt it, but you end up with a top quality blue job. I'm in a very dry climate, never use any type of sweat box, and can still do several steam jobs a day.