1884 Trapdoor ......need HELP

[rmcc]

Inherited a Trapdoor made in 1888. When I got it, you could not see the rifling. After a lot of scrubbing, boiling water, and patches, I can see the rifling. From the breach forward 18" or so, bore is bright ,shiny, strong rifling. From there forward, looks like a sewer pipe!! The rifling is there, but so is a lot of pitting. I used a .460 bullet and drove it from the muzzle to breach. It miked .457-.455, bullet was egg shaped? Anyway, do I start with .458 sized bullet or go back to .457? Tried shooting .460 (was what I got with rifle) and they keyholed at 25 yds.! Any advice would be much appreciated.

thanks,
rmcc

[missionary5155]

Good morning
If you are going to shoot smokeless t you need to size .002 over the "Throat area" diameter.
We have one TD that we load with a .464 cast of 40-1 using enough Unique to get it to 1250 fps. Will group 4-5" at 100 yards.
With BP (3F goex) that same bullet shoots better groups... 3"at 100 yards
Mike in Peru

[varsity07840]

Unless you have an anvil micrometer for a 3 groove barrel, you're not going to get an accurate measurement of the slug. Considering
the condition of your bore I'd send it to Bob Hoyt for a reline. You won't be sorry.

[waksupi]

If it's keyholing, you may need a larger diameter. I would shoot it for awhile, and see if the barrel cleans up better. Mine shoots under 2" at 100 yards. If it won't settle in, I agree a reline may be in order.

[rmcc]

Thanks guys!!
Will definitely be using smokeless powders! I am casting a Lyman 457193 with soft lead. Am keeping velocities to the minimum (per the data I have). These are dropping consistently ay .460 before lube/sizing in Lyman 4500. Mold is listed at 405 grains, mine are in the 420-423 grain range. Any idea what a reline costs? I am going to keep playing with this a while to see if I can find something that shoots in it. Regardless, it is a blast touching off a piece of history!! Thanks again!!

rmcc

[varsity07840]

Thanks guys!!
Will definitely be using smokeless powders! I am casting a Lyman 457193 with soft lead. Am keeping velocities to the minimum (per the data I have). These are dropping consistently ay .460 before lube/sizing in Lyman 4500. Mold is listed at 405 grains, mine are in the 420-423 grain range. Any idea what a reline costs? I am going to keep playing with this a while to see if I can find something that shoots in it. Regardless, it is a blast touching off a piece of history!! Thanks again!!

rmcc
Hoyt will do it for around $200.00. You'll probably go through more than that in powder, bullets and moulds trying to get it to shoot well in it's current state.

[Gewehr-Guy]

I once cleaned up a really bad rusted 45-70, {a Husqvarna NR-45 with a different style of rifling} by shooting several paper patch bullets then about 40 passes with a brass brush then another 5 rds and so on till you see improvement on your target. I wet patched with several thicknesses of any old paper till I found one that fit snugly in the fired cases, and used a light load of smokeless ,like 9grs Unique. The first 10 firings I lubed the dried patches with some kind of case lube, then after the bore started to smooth out I just shot them dry. This barrel took about 30-40 shots and went from sewer pipe ugly to very shiny with worn lands and will shoot 10 into 3-4 in with the few loads i tried, so don't give up on your barrel yet, it can only get better with use. Good luck Jim.

[John Taylor]

T.J.'s has a liner for trap doors, three groove rifling with 1 in 22 twist.

[1Hawkeye]

Try the Lyman #457125 that is there copy of the original government 500gr trapdoor bullet. Although the bore might still need a reline the heavier bullet is what the trapdoor sights were calibrated for.

[Chill Wills]

Try the Lyman #457125 that is there copy of the original government 500gr trapdoor bullet. Although the bore might still need a reline the heavier bullet is what the trapdoor sights were calibrated for.

It won't mater. The OP said "Will definitely be using smokeless powders!" so it will be shooting way high. They do when fed smokeless.

And fed smokeless, the bullet won't bump up and keyholes.....
He will need to go a different route. Relining with a .458 barrel will fix some of it but not the "shooting to the sights".

[Jackpine]

I have two original TDs, and neither of them shoot "way high" with smokeless.

Jackpine

[Chill Wills]

Jackpine, you say this like it could not be true.


You can tune your load with powder and bullet weight for the issue sights but most loads don't even come close.
I will put my money on most shooting high to very high with smokeless.

If how many you Springfields own maters, I have currently have two original rifles and have had four others. No carbines.

They all shot high with smokeless loads built from Lyman data. The loads using SR-4759 are common and can be tuned to the longer yardages but shooting high is why so many people change out front sight blades.
Creating arsenal loads with BP and correct bullet will shoot closest in my experience.

If this is going to be a chest bumping contest, you win! Someone eles's turn.

[40-82 hiker]

To the OP: I would reline as others suggested. Bore just sounds impossible to deal with, IMHO.

My 1884 shot high with both BP AND smokeless. I made a new front sight for it, and I've been all smiles ever since. I honestly thought TDs shot high because of the short front sight meeting the military sighting needs for single aim point, but bullet impact from head to legs depending on distance, in combat situations not conducive to rear sight settings. JMHO...

[Jackpine]

Chill Wills,

Take a deep breath and chill. I am sorry you took such offense to my simple statement. And I have no desire to become intimate with your chest. How many firearms you own, or have owned has no impact on the reason for my post. I was simply stating my personal experience. Yours or others may certainly be different.

The trap door that I use in competition shoots shoots point of aim at 100, 200 and 300 yards with settings of 2, 3, and 4 1/4 respectively, on a Buffington sight. I simply wanted to OP to be aware that not all TDs will always shoot high. My second TD does not shoot as accurately and I have not shot it as much, but I do not recall having any issues with it shooting "way high."

Again, I am sorry that you took such offense because of what you read into my statement. It was not my intent to offend you, but simply state facts.

Jackpine

[1Hawkeye]

That's funny chill because when I loaded mine with 10.0grs of unique the sights were on. Yes 4759 does throw them up to 18" high at 100 yds in some rifles but I have found that the 500 gr groups better even in a rough bore. I was just trying to help the O.P. I didn't expect to get trolled on and yes I've changed out a few front sights to accommodate for 4759 if the rifle was accurate enough to be worth the effort. Back in the day Lyman and Redfield offered replacement front sights for td's because of the smokeless elevation difference. I'm not thumping my chest but I didn't care for getting stepped on. If I was in that rifle cheap enough it would be off to Bobby Hoyt so he could work his magic on it with a new liner.:bigsmyl2:

[Chill Wills]

Chill Wills,

Again, I am sorry that you took such offense because of what you read into my statement. It was not my intent to offend you, but simply state facts.

Jackpine

Jackpine - I am sorry too. I don't often take the bait of the straw-man argument. Or what I thought was intended to be a straw-man. Your single sentence statement to me sounded like your were trying to pick a fight. If I have an excuse it was late and I should have gone to bed. Again, sorry. It is always better to let this forum stuff go and re-read it the next day.

Happy New Year to all.
Michael Rix

[rmcc]

Thanks for all the help fellas!! I had always wanted one of these rifles, just from historical side if nothing else. My friend, who passed, had 4 rifles and 1 carbine. He liked using BP and 5744. He had a bunch of different molds in different weights he was always trying out. I am not the "purist" he was but I would like to get it to shoot one load anyway. If I remember correctly, the original load (with the Buffington sight, but don't quote me) was zeroed at 550 yds using the battle sight. Considering a man size target, that gave them quite a long Point Blank range. My next question is why would/do smokeless loads regulate so high? Is it the steepness of the pressure curve in the burn rate or just plainly higher pressure in a given load. Given everything stated, do I need to try BP? And if so, is there a "go to" powder to use? Sorry for the questions but I know nothing about loading or shooting black! My only experience is with Triple 7 in my old T/C Hawken

thanks,
rmcc

[Chill Wills]

If I remember the battle sight point blank range correctly it is closer to 260 or 265y. From zero to 265y the trooper holds belt level and the bullets impacts from belt to shoulders and then drops back to belt at the farther range.
The graduated portion of the sight has settings starting from 200y in 100y increments and with arsenal loads shoots very close to the sights, by design. This should not vary. That is the whole point of standardized rifle and ammo.

If a rifle shoots greatly different than others of the model, I would for something that has been changed out, broken or generally out of issue.

You write: My next question is why would/do smokeless loads regulate so high? Is it the steepness of the pressure curve in the burn rate or just plainly higher pressure in a given load.

Any of a number of reasons. Bullet weight and powder weight combined, plus velocity, control much of this.
Also, barrel time, and where the muzzle is in vibration when the bullet exits greatly effect high/lows. This isn't much of and explanation but rather is a list of factors.

If you don't mind trying some BP, Good BP, I think you will see some good groups at ranges like 300, 400y and farther, will see the rifle shooting close to the sights, depending on how close the velocity matches the Original Army ammo.

Your are right. They are a lot of fun! Enjoy.